14:26 < GorillaWarfare> MartijnH: For the record, it's not particularly helpful to ping ops in -en when you need help in -en-help
14:27 < Technical_13> Napping
14:28 < MartijnH> GW: thanks, I thought there were a ton of cross-ops
14:28 < MartijnH> apparently not
14:29 * MartijnH generally doesn't get involved in oppy business
14:30 < GorillaWarfare> MartijnH: There are some
14:30 < GorillaWarfare> But when someone uses the stalkword, it pings us in -ops like so:
14:30 < MartijnH> ah, ok!
14:30 < MartijnH> didn't know that
14:30 < GorillaWarfare> [#wikipedia-en-help] - Technical_13 wants op attention (spammer) GorillaWarfare, QueenofFrance, ...
14:31 < MartijnH> I thought that if you weren't in -en-help, you wouldn't see the ops request. My mistake
14:31 < GorillaWarfare> Nope
14:31 < MartijnH> thanks for the clarification
14:32 < GorillaWarfare> Sure
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14:46 * MartijnH votes for declaring Huon as additional op for -en-help
14:50 < GorillaWarfare> You'll have to talk to QoF about that
14:50 < GorillaWarfare> But I think the decision was no more ops
14:50 < MartijnH> ah, ok
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15:21 < ferry|AFK> MartijnH, seconded - perhaps we can operate by consensus rather than decision
15:21 -!- ferry|AFK is now known as nonsenseferret
15:22 * MartijnH gave his opnion and stays out of it from there on
15:23 < GorillaWarfare> Heh
15:23 < GorillaWarfare> The decision-making process with regards to IRC ops is.. controversial
15:23 < nonsenseferret> MartijnH, it is not the first time that exact comment has been made here, i would say I get the impression there is a very strong consensus for that 15:24 < nonsenseferret> GorillaWarfare, yes wasn't Charmlet recently an op
15:25 < GorillaWarfare> Recently-ish
15:25 < GorillaWarfare> Why?
15:25 < nonsenseferret> well so that was the appropriate number of ops then, and charmlet is no longer an op, that does suggest there is a reasonable case for Huon
15:26 < GorillaWarfare> You mean we should maintain the number?
15:26 < nonsenseferret> oh yes i think that would be very reasonable GorillaWarfare - you wouldn't personally object would you
15:26 < GorillaWarfare> Well, I started opping here after Charmlet was removed as an op
15:26 < GorillaWarfare> So the number has stayed the same
15:26 < nonsenseferret> oh that is interesting
15:26 < nonsenseferret> how did you apply
15:27 < GorillaWarfare> I didn't
15:27 < nonsenseferret> oh right, so how did it come about exactly
15:27 < GorillaWarfare> I was opped a long time ago; they used to op all admins here
15:27 < GorillaWarfare> I just didn't know it until a month or two ago
15:27 < nonsenseferret> oh so you were an op
15:27 < nonsenseferret> so the numbers have changed then
15:27 < nonsenseferret> that makes it much clearer
15:27 < GorillaWarfare> Is an op who does not know she's an op still an op?
15:28 < nonsenseferret> you don't really need to ask that do you GorillaWarfare
15:28 < nonsenseferret> why do you object to the suggestion?
15:28 < GorillaWarfare> It seems like a reasonable question
15:28 < GorillaWarfare> If someone came here and was trolling, I looked for an op to deal with them because I couldn't do it myself
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15:29 < nonsenseferret> yes I can't see that there isn't a lot of support for this, who could possibly object?
15:29 < MartijnH> I'm generally cool with 'if we don't need any more ops, there is no need in handing out more ops'. But when we have an active troll, no active ops, and active trusted editors around who could have fixed it, I'm all for giving them ops, even if it is relatively rare. Huon (and nonsenseferret too for that matter) are here often, and are trusted - so that's a 'why not' IMO
15:29 * GorillaWarfare shrugs
15:29 < GorillaWarfare> Like I said, not my decision to make
15:30 < nonsenseferret> if the 'decision making' process stands in the way of consensus - i think we have really got to start asking very serious questions about the decision making process
15:30 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: Good luck with that
15:30 < nonsenseferret> do i have your support GorillaWarfare
15:30 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: Kind of hard for me to give support to something that vague
15:30 < nonsenseferret> do you think Huon is an appropriate choice of op
15:31 * GorillaWarfare shrugs
15:31 < GorillaWarfare> Yeah, I guess so
15:31 < nonsenseferret> thats great, thanks, we'll count on your support then
15:31 < MartijnH> as an aside, I don't think we can bombard people with ops without having discussed it with them first, even if the outcome isn't clear yet
15:31 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: Haha, it seems like you're twisting my words here.
15:31 < nonsenseferret> well if you object GorillaWarfare say so
15:32 < nonsenseferret> lets be open and honest with each other
15:32 < GorillaWarfare> I will be clear: If the decision is made to op somebody, I would accept Huon as that choice.
15:33 -!- mabdul [5dd340f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.18.104.22.168] has joined #wikipedia-en-helpers
15:33 < Helpmebot> Hello mabdul. Apparently you haven't identified yourself to nickserv since you're missing your cloak and seeing this message. If you are looking for help, please go to #wikipedia-en-help and ask your question.
15:33 < MartijnH> !notify QueenOfFrance
15:33 < Helpmebot> I'll send you a private message when someone with nickname QueenOfFrance joins a channel I'm in
15:33 < MartijnH> o/ mabdul
15:33 < mabdul> here i am
15:34 * mabdul is busy in learning for the linux exam on tuesday ;-)
15:34 < mabdul> @MartijnH join #wikipedia-en-afc
15:34 < GorillaWarfare> mabdul: What's that channel?
15:34 < mabdul> guess
15:35 < GorillaWarfare> I'll rephrase: who created that channel, when, and why?
15:35 < mabdul> ages ago (years ago); for afc related stuff
15:35 < mabdul> bbmainly for afch now
15:36 < mabdul> *mainly
15:36 < GorillaWarfare> Oh, for afch?
15:36 < mabdul> as it is not used for other stuff ^^^
15:36 * GorillaWarfare nods
15:36 < GorillaWarfare> I was worried it was a "send all users looking for help with AfC to this channel" thing again
15:37 < mabdul> please not
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16:12 < QueenOfFrance> MartijnH: that won't work because I already am in here [Note: QueenOfFrance is Snowolf's IRC name - CdC]
16:13 < MartijnH> ah, true
16:13 < MartijnH> on the other hand
16:13 < MartijnH> apparently it worked brilliantly
16:16 < QueenOfFrance> Anyway, other thank stalking me, was there anything that was needed of me?
16:18 < MartijnH> oh, I assumed you read that. I was hoping for one or two additional ops in here. Is the policy still no more ops?
16:19 < QueenOfFrance> MartijnH: well I undertook a review of the matter a few weeks ago and found that no ops call went unanswered in over a month
16:20 < QueenOfFrance> or rather, two went: both were not something I would have acted on, and most ops would have just ignored them without saying anything, which is what I've done in those situations in the past
16:20 < MartijnH> there was one earlier today. They're rare, but when they happen, and we do have trusted people who could have prevented problems, I figured that would be one of those 'whi not' situations
16:21 < MartijnH> or rather 'why not' for those among us who can actually type
16:21 < QueenOfFrance> oh I thought the "whi" was intentional
16:21 < MartijnH> nah, I just can't type
16:22 < nonsenseferret> i think the way it stands is there seems to be quite a reasonable amount of support to propose Huon as a new op, why would anyone object to that?
16:22 < MartijnH> so I was figured, why not appoint Huon and/or nonsenseferret to the job. They're here very often, and probably pretty trusted
16:23 < MartijnH> s/was//
16:23 < QueenOfFrance> MartijnH: because op has to do with a lot of things, not just trust.
16:23 < nonsenseferret> MartijnH, i think you for the mention, but my support is fully behind Huon - he is head and shoulders above all else
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16:23 < nonsenseferret> QueenOfFrance, Charmlet was an op recently wasn't he
16:23 < QueenOfFrance> nonsenseferret: he was at some point, yes.
16:23 < nonsenseferret> so he isn't any more, therefore doesn't that mean the numbers have reduced for some reason?
16:24 < QueenOfFrance> nonsenseferret: not really because GorillaWarfare started becoming active since
16:24 < nonsenseferret> why was it reasonable to op Charmlet, but not Huon now
16:24 < QueenOfFrance> and has been doing most of the work
16:24 < nonsenseferret> GorillaWarfare, was always an op
16:24 < QueenOfFrance> But didn't know about it until we told her
16:24 < nonsenseferret> why do you object to this proposal QueenOfFrance
16:24 < nonsenseferret> lets have a sensible discussion about it
16:24 < QueenOfFrance> nonsenseferret: to what proposal?
16:25 < nonsenseferret> we propose that Huon be opped
16:25 < QueenOfFrance> Let him email me if he wants it, and I can forward the proposal around
16:25 < nonsenseferret> so nobody that helps in here has any say?
16:25 < nonsenseferret> there seems to be a lot of support QueenOfFrance - emailng things around behind the scenes doesn't seem open
16:26 < QueenOfFrance> IRC isn't open.
16:26 < nonsenseferret> that is no answer at all QueenOfFrance it is open if you want it to be
16:26 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: IRC does not operate in the same way as Wikipedia
16:27 < nonsenseferret> it can be open and accountable
16:27 < nonsenseferret> can anyone provide a sensible reason why it should not be
16:27 < MartijnH> I think "he cam mail, and it can be discussed" is a fairly reasonable opnion
16:27 < nonsenseferret> MartijnH, but does not take into account the strong support there is
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16:28 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: Strong support from... you and Martijn?
16:28 < nonsenseferret> you did not object to it either GorillaWarfare - it is not the first time that the suggestion has been made in here
16:28 < QueenOfFrance> nonsenseferret: so let Huon email me if he wants it
16:29 < nonsenseferret> openness, accountability QueenOfFrance ?
16:29 < QueenOfFrance> nonsenseferret: no such thing. Also, if he doesn't want it, we surely won't make him one.
16:29 < nonsenseferret> so you are clear you dont think openness and accountability is important in wikipedia matters
16:29 < nonsenseferret> can we quote you on that?
16:29 < QueenOfFrance> This is not a wikipedia matter.
16:29 < nonsenseferret> i disagree
16:29 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: Again with the twisting of words.
16:29 < QueenOfFrance> So let's try not to misquote me.
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16:32 < nonsenseferret> why shouldn't there be more openness and accountabilty, i can't understand why you would possible be arguing against it
16:32 < QueenOfFrance> In any case, as I stated before, Huon can get in touch with me if he feels he wants to be an op in -en-help, and I will obviously pass it on and give it the most serious consideration. This is not because I'm a jerk, but because an IRC op has sadly little to do with being a good helper, which a lot of people in here could teach me about, and a lot to do with understanding the technical and policy side of IRC, meaning of IPs, etc
16:33 < nonsenseferret> this isn't an attempt to personally get at you QueenOfFrance i hope you understand there isn't any ill feeling
16:33 < QueenOfFrance> nonsenseferret: of course
16:33 < nonsenseferret> but i think there are some values that are important
16:33 < GorillaWarfare> nonsenseferret: Quite frankly, you're being surprisingly accusatory
16:34 < nonsenseferret> what is my accusation GorillaWarfare ?
16:34 < GorillaWarfare> 09:28 < nonsenseferret> so you are clear you dont think openness and accountability is important in wikipedia matters
16:34 < nonsenseferret> is this process open and accountable GorillaWarfare ?
16:34 < GorillaWarfare> That's not what you were accusing
16:35 < GorillaWarfare> IRC is not a "Wikipedia matter"