Arbcom Elections 2021

[ArmasRebane]

Can every thread not become relitigating Fram?

[Vigilant]

Can every thread not become relitigating Fram?

What else should an ARBCOM elections thread be about these days?

[Moral Hazard]

The Fram case should be brought up and an answer insisted upon for every candidate.

Here is a list of en.wp people who need to have an eye kept on them.

That's s long list of recidivist shitheels right there.

Hmmm...

Oppose This kind of remedy has been floating around Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes since time immemorial, and it's not effective. If this sort of action is what it takes to get the message through, I say do it.
Banedon (T-C-L) 02:29, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Also I can imagine the press coverage that could easily happen if Fram is unbanned and the media starts talking to the people he allegedly harassed. Chances are they'll report the allegations, maybe find the diffs (if the victims are willing), and then conclude that on Wikipedia, if the community kicks up enough of a fuss, they can overrule the WMF's actions. Maybe some will like this kind of portrayal, but I find it very unflattering.
Banedon (T-C-L) 02:33, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

someone should ask him about this !vote.

This seems a long way from his publicly stated, "ARBCOM should be more like a court!" position.

Consider the role of courts in Nazi Germany and the Soviet bloc.

[Vigilant]

Banedon is a moron.

Question from wbm1058

Given your "court-of-law" platform, what is your position on allowing secret evidence that defendants can't see, secret complainants that can't be cross examined and cases where the defendant cannot participate in their own defense, with the goal of protecting alleged victims? Please reconcile your platform with your opposition to this suggested resolution of a case where an editor was banned based on a closed, off-wiki proceeding.

In the ideal world, the complainant will argue their case in public, and the defendant will be able to defend themselves. From what I understand of the Fram case, the complainant was sufficiently distressed that they approached the WMF directly, because they did not feel they can get a fair result from the community dispute resolution process. That is something I mentioned in the statement and is something Arbcom should fix. Given that the complainant has already approached WMF, and that the WMF decided on a particular remedy, then absent the information (which I don't have) I am going to assume that the remedy was justified. This is similar to how I am going to assume that when an administrator blocks a user, the block was justified. In Fram's case there's the extra fact that most opposition to the WMF decision that I saw was because process wasn't followed, not because Fram is innocent of the accusations. That makes it sound like the result is correct even if the process wasn't followed, for which we actually have a policy (WP:SNOW).

However, when the consequence is this severe, Fram should have a right to due process. Given where we were, due process would be an appeal, which is what happened. Again in the ideal world the complainant will argue their case themselves & in public, but since they were feeling harassed they delegated someone else to argue the case privately. It's my understanding that Fram did see some of the evidence raised against him, responded to that evidence, and a different set of eyes still ruled against him. So the result seems fair.

The resolution you link to is a different thing since it contains five different points. I don't like the first point because as mentioned above it seems the result was correct, in which case the original sanction should remain in force until the appeal is considered. I don't like the second and third points either because people should already be doing those things (especially point 3). The fourth and fifth are reasonable. The way the resolution was proposed though the emphasis was clearly on points 1-3, hence I opposed. Does that answer your question?

So, the 'court-of-law' candidate is a guilty until proven innocent type.

Evidence and due process are just 'nice-to-haves'...

In Fram's case, the complainant was the wife of the WMF Chair of the Board of Trustees and was corruptly engaged in paid editing.

This guy is perfect for ARBCOM!

en.wp will make a Hasten The Day guy out of me yet.

[extcord]

The only question so far for Beebs is from Mikehawk10 (T-C-L). What parent in their right mind with the last name of Hawk would name their kid Mike? Or maybe he's just trolling with it.

MH10 claims that their parents named a nesting hawk that.

[Smiley]

MH10 claims that their parents named a nesting hawk that.

I can't tell if he's trolling or just dumb.

To be honest with you, I chose this name because there was a hawk that nested in my yard when I was younger that my parents named “Mike”. It had not occurred to me until now that my parents were possible making a joke in the naming.

These Mikes seem a bit more clear cut:

Mikeoxsbig (T-C-L)
Mikeoxsbyg (T-C-L)
Mike oxBIG12 (T-C-L)
Mikeoxbig98 (T-C-L)
Mikeoxlarge (T-C-L)
Mikeoxlongg (T-C-L)
MikeOxlong47 (T-C-L)
MikeOxlong198 (T-C-L)
MikeOxlong333 (T-C-L)
MikeOxlong555 (T-C-L)
MikeOxlong696969 (T-C-L)
Mikeoxtolong (T-C-L)
Mikeoxsmaul (T-C-L)
Mikehawkishuge (T-C-L)
Mikehawkishumongous (T-C-L)
Mikehawkisonfire (T-C-L)

[ArmasRebane]

The explanation is pretty believable, insofar as "we named the Hawk in our backyard Mike" is totally reasonable. I think the more questionable point is why he'd name the account MikeHawk rather than Mike the Hawk or similar, which is generally a much more common construction in English.

Whenever someone disbelieves that someone could be that dense about these sorts of things, though, I will always remember a history teacher who was only six or seven years older than us in high school and still didn't grok stuff like "if Jack helps you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse". Some people really miss this unless it's pointed out to them explicitly.

[orangepi]

Over halfway through the nomination period and ... a total of one candidate. Presumably half a dozen more will appear over the weekend.

The flood of weekend candidates was merely a trickle. With 46 hours left, there are 3 candidates, two of whom will get elected (and one of whom will not).

[Smiley]

The explanation is pretty believable, insofar as "we named the Hawk in our backyard Mike" is totally reasonable. I think the more questionable point is why he'd name the account MikeHawk rather than Mike the Hawk or similar, which is generally a much more common construction in English.

Whatever the reasoning behind his name, the way this kiddy's going, you're gonna have an admin called MikeHawk soon. You've already got one called Girth Summit.

I'm all for it, but it would be nice to see a few ladies get in on the act. (Edit: nvm)

"if Jack helps you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse".

Jackinghorses (T-C-L)

[Ritchie333]

How about now, Ritchie?

I don't believe Laura Hale has had anything directly to do with this and the vitriol directed at her is quite unpleasant. If a bunch of people shouted at you, "your work sucks, don't let the door hit you on the way out", would you ever want to contribute again? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Want to take another stab at it?

I've had off-wiki communication from people who have said they complained to T&S about Fram, and Laura Hale wasn't one of them. I'm not into off-wiki doxxing even on this site, so I'm not going to reveal names said to me in confidence.

As for the second point, an analogy is those hard Brexiters who moaned about "foreigners stealing our jobs", then when said foreigners decided they were better off in another country, got surprisingly cross about a lack of fuel drivers. I don't really know anything about Hale's work, but I do know Fram is often vicious and barbed when he's right (actually, come to think of it, so is Vigilant for that matter). If Fram had explained the issues calmly and politely, the WMF might have done something different.

[Vigilant]

How about now, Ritchie?

I don't believe Laura Hale has had anything directly to do with this and the vitriol directed at her is quite unpleasant. If a bunch of people shouted at you, "your work sucks, don't let the door hit you on the way out", would you ever want to contribute again? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Want to take another stab at it?

I've had off-wiki communication from people who have said they complained to T&S about Fram, and Laura Hale wasn't one of them. I'm not into off-wiki doxxing even on this site, so I'm not going to reveal names said to me in confidence.

Does the bolded part above describe how you view things now?

So, like Trust and Safety, you have 'secret evidence' that's unimpeachable that damns the accused?
How droll.

As for the second point, an analogy is those hard Brexiters who moaned about "foreigners stealing our jobs", then when said foreigners decided they were better off in another country, got surprisingly cross about a lack of fuel drivers. I don't really know anything about Hale's work, but I do know Fram is often vicious and barbed when he's right (actually, come to think of it, so is Vigilant for that matter).

But you have a strong opinion on the case though?

Have you thought about running for ARBCOM?

It's been shown, incontrovertibly that she was being paid for her "work" and that she was running up the numbers for her HOPAU bosses and that she was coordinating this activity in google groups, including AfD canvassing.

If Fram had explained the issues calmly and politely, the WMF might have done something different.

So, Fram was 'asking for it'?

The WMF decided they didn't like his tone?

Check the history. Fram did start out polite. So did others.
The end game is literally years and a thousand shit articles later.

This action had nothing to do with the fact that Laura Hale was Maria Sefidari Huici's undisclosed wife during the whole fiasco?

[TNT]

[...] there are 3 candidates, two of whom will get elected (and one of whom will not).

Are you sure one won't..?

[Ritchie333]

It's been shown, incontrovertibly that she was being paid for her "work" and that she was running up the numbers for her HOPAU bosses.

Well the end result is she's no longer editing WP (unless via a sock), so the matter's resolved itself. If there's a Neelix-style cleanup required, then it ought to be posted on a noticeboard.

But you have a strong opinion on the case though?

Have you thought about running for ARBCOM?

What, WP:FRAMGATE (T-H-L) or Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram (T-H-L)? I think I only posted a few times on the former in a fairly neutral manner, and can't remember at all in the latter. I also criticised at least one comment that was inflammatory towards Fram : "I don't think the tweet is in particularly good taste (as I would say for anyone gravedancing over any banned member), and I'm disappointed to see it." (Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram/Archive 5 (T-H-L)) I did read Fram's blog post here around that time, which I basically agree with and think makes good points.

I don't know what else to say other than you seem to be more interested in the matter than I am, so I'll defer to your more experienced judgement.

[Smiley]

I'll defer to your more experienced judgement.

Run for Arb. When you get in, hand the account over to Vigilant.
We've already got three Committee members in our pocket, this could be the tipping point.

[Ritchie333]

I'll defer to your more experienced judgement.

Run for Arb. When you get in, hand the account over to Vigilant.

Too obvious. The minute a post coming from my account refers to a class of editors we don't like as "dipshits", the game will be up.

[Smiley]

Run for Arb. When you get in, hand the account over to Vigilant.

Too obvious. The minute a post coming from my account refers to a class of editors we don't like as "dipshits", the game will be up.

[Ritchie333]

Well, quite. A Vigilant smack-down is more like this. Totally different writing styles.

[Beeblebrox]

[Vigilant]

I'll defer to your more experienced judgement.

Run for Arb. When you get in, hand the account over to Vigilant.

Too obvious. The minute a post coming from my account refers to a class of editors we don't like as "dipshits", the game will be up.

I also use ‘shitheels’, just to mix things up.

[Vigilant]

Well, quite. A Vigilant smack-down is more like this. Totally different writing styles.

I strive for clarity

[No Ledge]

No it's not. Still over 24 hours to go.

Looking forward to the next request for comment. How to reform Arbcom elections. Maybe don't make people wait until November, allow an individual to submit a "request for Arbcom membership" at any time, with open, public discussion and voting running for seven days. Just a thought.

[Vigilant]

It's been shown, incontrovertibly that she was being paid for her "work" and that she was running up the numbers for her HOPAU bosses.

Well the end result is she's no longer editing WP (unless via a sock), so the matter's resolved itself. If there's a Neelix-style cleanup required, then it ought to be posted on a noticeboard.

Has the matter actually resolved itself?

How do you resolve your statement, "I don't believe Laura Hale has had anything directly to do with this" with the fact that arbitrators have publicly admitted that she was central to the case?

There was a credible scenario of self-dealing corruption at the highest levels of the WMF, but you, an admin, just want to sweep it under the rug because the person at the very center has left and looking at the institutional failures is too much work?

No dealing with the systemic failures?

No looking at improving governance?

No changing of the people involved who aided and abetted this situation?

It seems like you may be a part of the reason that Teh Communitah has ZERO institutional memory.

[Zoloft]

"Fire Chief, do you feel the arsonist was properly dealt with?"

"Well, we set the whistleblower who reported her crimes on fire, but we did put him out later."

"I understand the arsonist turned out to be the mayor's wife?"

"I really don't know much about it, but the situation resolved itself neatly, she stopped setting fires, and the whistleblower was not badly burned. There was some structural damage to City Hall, but we'll apply duct tape."

*clown horn honking in the distance*

[Moneytrees]

Hmm, Dark Clouds of Joy (T-C-L) put up a candidate statement (along with admins Wugapodes (T-C-L) and Donald Albury (T-C-L)), where they said they had "been around for years" despite only starting editing in 2020, and that "I am also a moderator of a Wikipedia-related forum, which has given me valuable experience dealing with trolls, malcontents and other problematic users". Hmmmmmm. Floq just blocked them with the summary "trolling, sock puppetry and/or block evasion, very high likelihood this is an LTA (but if, instead, it is someone pretending to be an LTA, then blocking is still appropriate)".

[Smiley]

[Edit: Beaten to the punch by Moneytrees above]




A user in good standing with no blocks just threw their cowboy hat in the circus ring.

They have been blocked without warning by Floquenbeam based on... a hunch?



Mainspace contribs.

Dark Clouds of Joy (T-C-L): 1,146 edits (88.3% mainspace) 12 articles in 12 months
Floquenbeam (T-C-L): 5,032 edits (14.4% mainspace) 1 substub in 12 years

[Smiley]

It is an absolute farce.

[Newyorkbrad]

Maybe don't make people wait until November, allow an individual to submit a "request for Arbcom membership" at any time, with open, public discussion and voting running for seven days. Just a thought.

This would have the serious disadvantage of potentially encouraging people to run and vote based on whatever issue is pending before the Committee at a given time, or seems likely to come up soon.

[tarantino]

Yamla created his account within one hour of SlimVirgin's account creation and lived in the same area of Canada. I was a bit suspicious of this a long time ago, but then it became obvious who he is.

[owl be it]

This action had nothing to do with the fact that Laura Hale was Maria Sefidari Huici's undisclosed wife during the whole fiasco?

Take my undisclosed wife -- please!

[Smiley]

Yamla created his account within one hour of SlimVirgin's account creation and lived in the same area of Canada. I was a bit suspicious of this a long time ago, but then it became obvious who he is.

I'm more interested in who this overcast moderator of a Wikipedia-related forum is.

it isn't Midsize Jake, because everyone knows that he has never edited Wikipedia.

It isn't Zoloft, because he is StaniStani and doesn't sock.

It can't be me, because I'm community banned or something.

Who does that leave? You've never been blocked t, have you?

[Beeblebrox]

I'm more interested in who this overcast moderator of a Wikipedia-related forum is.

I was assuming it was bullshit. They clearly decided the didn't want this sock anymore and chose to blow it up trolling ACE.

[Mason]

I’m pretty sure it’s a sock of Kafkaesque (T-C-L)

[Smiley]

Hmm.
Lucky I have two admin accounts.

Pedia reparo!!!





Well, how ungrateful.

[Beeblebrox]

No it's not. Still over 24 hours to go.

Looking forward to the next request for comment. How to reform Arbcom elections. Maybe don't make people wait until November, allow an individual to submit a "request for Arbcom membership" at any time, with open, public discussion and voting running for seven days. Just a thought.

On a global project, the last 24 hours pretty much is the last minute if you ask me. The field has opened up a little, but we still don't even have enough candidates to fill the open seats. If people were waiting to see if they should run or not, I believe they have their answer.

[Beeblebrox]

Well, how ungrateful.

predictably, that was enough to get talk page access revoked.

[Smiley]

Someone wake Jimmy from his stupors, I want to see this guy reveal all.

[Hemiauchenia]

Appeal to Jimbo is such a tired and played out thing now.

[Smiley]

Appeal to Jimbo is such a tired and played out thing now.

Yeah, nobody wants to be associated with Sir Jimmy anymore.

[Moral Hazard]

Maybe don't make people wait until November, allow an individual to submit a "request for Arbcom membership" at any time, with open, public discussion and voting running for seven days. Just a thought.

This would have the serious disadvantage of potentially encouraging people to run and vote based on whatever issue is pending before the Committee at a given time, or seems likely to come up soon.

I have a modest suggestion:

Wikipediocracy moderators should be appointed to Arbcom ex officio.

[Smiley]

I like how Yamla links Dark Clouds of Joy to Darkness Shines, whose real name is fairly well-known.

Perhaps he didn't read the part where Dark Clouds begged to remain anonymous.


https://developers.slashdot.org/story/0 ... techniques
https://twitter.com/yegct/status/1103750762364981248
https://web.archive.org/web/20000621224 ... facts.html
https://labs.clio.com/about

[Smiley]

Hi Anthony, I requested a review of the ban in March which the arbitration committee has declined. They have said I must wait a further twelve months before another appeal can be made, I appreciate the support but the only options are Arbcom, who have refused twice, an appeal to the community who for the most part voted to ban me. Perhaps one day I will be allowed back to the project.

Darkness Shines (T-C-L), 4 August 2021

You've got no chance now, Darky.
Sorry.

The place is and always has been run by blithering idiots. But I think you already knew that.

[extcord]

Opabinia regalis (T-C-L) joins the fray, an experienced ex-arbitrator who served four years (and interestingly enough, got a support percentage of exactly 74.24% both times elected).

[Moral Hazard]

Kudpung's Guide to candidates seemed reasonable and calm.

Semi-retirement has been good for his soul, I think.

[Guerillero]

I am not running this year

The temptation to run rises, but I still probably shouldn't

[TNT]

I am not running this year

The temptation to run rises, but I still probably shouldn't

Whatcha got to lose!?

[AngelOne]

Hi Anthony, I requested a review of the ban in March which the arbitration committee has declined. They have said I must wait a further twelve months before another appeal can be made, I appreciate the support but the only options are Arbcom, who have refused twice, an appeal to the community who for the most part voted to ban me. Perhaps one day I will be allowed back to the project.

Darkness Shines (T-C-L), 4 August 2021

You've got no chance now, Darky.

Ahem.

[Beeblebrox]

I am not running this year

The temptation to run rises, but I still probably shouldn't

And yet you did anyway. link

It's finally shaping up to a real field of candidates. Should be interesting to see who pops up in the next few hours before the closing bell.

[Guerillero]

Life is short

There still aren't 8 that I want to vote for, so YMMV

[SoWhy]

At least, there are sufficient candidates now that people actually have a choice and maybe there will be some more as the deadline approaches. I really feared I would have to run again just to have more viable candidates than seats to fill

[TNT]

At least, there are sufficient candidates now that people actually have a choice and maybe there will be some more as the deadline approaches. I really feared I would have to run again just to have more viable candidates than seats to fill

SoWhy not run anyway?