Lingua Libre

[Giraffe Stapler]

Lingua Libre is a project of Wikimedia France. It has gathered over 1 million recordings of over 1,400 speakers in over 200 languages. Recordings of what, you ask? Words and phrases.

I am sure this has been written up somewhere, but I don't recall ever hearing about it. I've read their "about" page and I still can't determine the intended end use.

[Lurking]

Lingua Libre is a project of Wikimedia France. It has gathered over 1 million recordings of over 1,400 speakers in over 200 languages. Recordings of what, you ask? Words and phrases.

I am sure this has been written up somewhere, but I don't recall ever hearing about it. I've read their "about" page and I still can't determine the intended end use.

I could see such a thing being useful for documentation of languages at risk of extinction.
My guess without looking is that the great bulk of recordings are, however, of languages not at all at such risk.

[FelinaLavandula]

There are a few underrepresented languages there. The English translation of the search page isn’t so great though, it uses the French “genre” instead of “gender”.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I could see such a thing being useful for documentation of languages at risk of extinction.
My guess without looking is that the great bulk of recordings are, however, of languages not at all at such risk.

Yes, it would be great if dying languages were documented before they are gone. I have very serious doubts that this project is the way to do that. As far as I can tell, the entire project is based on some naive "word which means this sounds like this" assumption so the goal is to gather the sounds of each word once and then they're done. That's not how languages work.

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

[rnu]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

[Lurking]

I could see such a thing being useful for documentation of languages at risk of extinction.
My guess without looking is that the great bulk of recordings are, however, of languages not at all at such risk.

Yes, it would be great if dying languages were documented before they are gone. I have very serious doubts that this project is the way to do that. As far as I can tell, the entire project is based on some naive "word which means this sounds like this" assumption so the goal is to gather the sounds of each word once and then they're done. That's not how languages work.

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

True, though even partial documentation would beat no documentation as has happened to a fair few languages. But yeah I have about as much hope as you do of it becoming useful even in that "well better than nothing" way--approximately zero.

[Zoloft]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

Just to step in here... the Scottish MP in that clip is not speaking Scots, he's speaking English with a Scottish accent. Scots is either an extreme dialect or a whole different language (depending on your point of view) that gets dragged out in Scottish schools every year for Burns night where kids have to learn and recite excruciatingly bad poetry. It's relatively easy to read but less so to converse in. It's tempting to laugh at it when it looks like people are just trying to write in a Scottish accent, but that misses the point.

[redbaron]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

Just to step in here... the Scottish MP in that clip is not speaking Scots, he's speaking English with a Scottish accent. Scots is either an extreme dialect or a whole different language (depending on your point of view) that gets dragged out in Scottish schools every year for Burns night where kids have to learn and recite excruciatingly bad poetry. It's relatively easy to read but less so to converse in. It's tempting to laugh at it when it looks like people are just trying to write in a Scottish accent, but that misses the point.

I'd say the video is an apt comparison to what happened in the Scots Wikipedia then

[Ron Lybonly]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

Just to step in here... the Scottish MP in that clip is not speaking Scots, he's speaking English with a Scottish accent. Scots is either an extreme dialect or a whole different language (depending on your point of view) that gets dragged out in Scottish schools every year for Burns night where kids have to learn and recite excruciatingly bad poetry. It's relatively easy to read but less so to converse in. It's tempting to laugh at it when it looks like people are just trying to write in a Scottish accent, but that misses the point.

Good to know!

Reckon elevators don’t understand either (Scots or Scottish English).

[eppur si muove]

[Reckon elevators don’t understand either (Scots or Scottish English).

That's new to me and good. As far as the Scottish MP is concerned, I didn't hear the first statement of the question clearly but I've got some age-related hearing loss and was listening through a lap top without headphones. The other MP would need to have really quite bad hearing loss not to have made out either statement of the question.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

Just to step in here... the Scottish MP in that clip is not speaking Scots, he's speaking English with a Scottish accent. Scots is either an extreme dialect or a whole different language (depending on your point of view) that gets dragged out in Scottish schools every year for Burns night where kids have to learn and recite excruciatingly bad poetry. It's relatively easy to read but less so to converse in. It's tempting to laugh at it when it looks like people are just trying to write in a Scottish accent, but that misses the point.

And an appendix to this...

I have just seen Scots WP for the first time. Um... is that a joke?

[Hemiauchenia]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

Just to step in here... the Scottish MP in that clip is not speaking Scots, he's speaking English with a Scottish accent. Scots is either an extreme dialect or a whole different language (depending on your point of view) that gets dragged out in Scottish schools every year for Burns night where kids have to learn and recite excruciatingly bad poetry. It's relatively easy to read but less so to converse in. It's tempting to laugh at it when it looks like people are just trying to write in a Scottish accent, but that misses the point.

And an appendix to this...

I have just seen Scots WP for the first time. Um... is that a joke?

It is unfortunately not: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Request ... _Wikipedia

I think Scots Wikipedia was doomed from the start as everybody who speaks Scots also already speaks English. and Scots is a largely oral language that is pluricentric without a standardized written form.

[iii]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't.

And an appendix to this...

I have just seen Scots WP for the first time. Um... is that a joke?

to Wikipediocracy! I hope you enjoy the place and decide to stay.

You can find a lot of history in our archives where fun stuff like this was dissected and argued about since time immemorial. Now, it seems, only a few of us still have the institutional memory.

Always remember!

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Remember Scots Wikipedia?

I don't. Was it anything like this:

Aye, it was a lot like that.

Now I did understand the question asked in the video, though.

Just to step in here... the Scottish MP in that clip is not speaking Scots, he's speaking English with a Scottish accent. Scots is either an extreme dialect or a whole different language (depending on your point of view) that gets dragged out in Scottish schools every year for Burns night where kids have to learn and recite excruciatingly bad poetry. It's relatively easy to read but less so to converse in. It's tempting to laugh at it when it looks like people are just trying to write in a Scottish accent, but that misses the point.

And an appendix to this...

I have just seen Scots WP for the first time. Um... is that a joke?

It is unfortunately not: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Request ... _Wikipedia

I think Scots Wikipedia was doomed from the start as everybody who speaks Scots also already speaks English. and Scots is a largely oral language that is pluricentric without a standardized written form.

Thanks... it looked exactly like what it was... written by someone who's never been to Scotland, attempting to type in a pseudo-Scottish accent.

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

[The Blue Newt]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

[Hemiauchenia]

Thanks... it looked exactly like what it was... written by someone who's never been to Scotland, attempting to type in a pseudo-Scottish accent.

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

I share your sense of frustration/annoyance. In the 2020 MetaWiki discussion, I was one of the supporters of the proposal to shutdown the Scots Wikipedia completely. I'm not Scottish and don't speak Scots, but I knew how pointless trying to fix it would be how the momentum to fix it would completely evaporate within a few weeks/months of the controversy erupting;

Nuke from Orbit There's no purpose to this Wiki existing if there's not going to be anybody to actively maintain it, once this controversy has died down the attention needed to fix it will go with it. The existence of this mostly dead wiki is more of a punchline than anything else and is clearly causing distress to scots and I think we should respect their wishes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately this was drowned by naive people (who also didn't speak Scots) who thought otherwise. In the 3 years since I think I have been thoroughly vindicated.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask. The second ves lady Caslogy in Fyf. The thridm lady Renkelour Sibbald, quhilkes tua howsses ar bothe discendit of the tua sisters. The lady Panmore wos ane maist verteus lady, for in hir tyme Robert gat ane tak of the heale teyndis of the paroece of Panbryd of Dauid Beton, cardinale, and abot then of Abirbrothe. He gat ane letter of Balzeirie of the baronie of Barrie fra the abot callit Foster. He conquisit fra James Carnegy the landis of Carnegy, lykuays he payit the towchers of the lard of Panlathys tua dochtirs, quha wer ayres, and gat thay landis. He wos withe the Earle of Lennox at the battel of Lynlythgow, for the quhilk he tuk remission. He wos efter wardis hwrt at the bwrne of Barrie be the lard of Balfour in Angus callit Ogilwy, and the lard of Fintrie, quha takin ane poynd owt of Panlathy and passine throwe Barry weil accompanyeit, he on adventur did meit them, beine thear at his pastyme, and opponinge him self o them, vos ewil wondit. The mater heirefter wos agreit, and the annuel that wos auchtand to the lard of Balfour, furthe of the landis of Panlathyn wos quat be Balfour. The lard of Fintrie geawe him infeftment of the milne of the mains of Stradichty, redemabil vpon the hwnder merkes for his part. The cardinal then beine ane gryt courteour, and head of the kirk of Scotland, fauoret the lardis of Balfour and Fintrie, for the lard of Fintreis vyf wos then Beton, quhilk wos the caws the mater wos so sone composit. This wos the zeir of God 1527 or thear about... The yeir of God 1548, he wos takine be Englismen, and his eldest sone Thomas owt Panmore be the conuoy of certaine Scotishmen then fauorers of England. In the takine he vos schot with ane coulwerine in the chaftesm and evil hurt. Theay wor led away withe diligence to the forthe at Bruchty. Thomas his eldest sone wos relewit be Patrick lord Grayes moyen, quha the did assist England, bot Robert vos send away in ane shipe to London quhar he wes emprisonet in the Towr thearof ane zeir. He wes relewit without ransone for the Marquess of Albef com to England owt of France and gat syndry prisoners relewit, withe quhome Robert come home. He wos ane man of comlie behauior, of hie stature, sanguine in colloure bothe of hyd and haire, colerique of nature, and subiect to suddane anger, ane natural man, expert in the lawes of the countray, of gud langage, expert in countine of genealogies. Durine the lord Grayes wardine quhilk, wes for the space of sewine zeires he occupiit the sherefshipe. Dwrine his first wyues tyme, he did caws build the hows of Panmore, as it is at this day; he wos wery temperat of his mouthe, bot gewin to leicerie, ane abil man on fwt, and ane gud horsman, lyket weil to be honorable in apparel, and weil horset, mikil honorit withe his nychboures, and in gud estimatione. He had gryt delyght in haukine and hountine. He tuk pleswr in playine at the fut bale, and for that caws th mwr of Bathil wos appointed, and dwrine his dayes it wos not castine, bot only reserwit for that game; lykwayes he exerciset the gowf, and oftymes past to Barry lynkes, quhan the wadfie vos for drink. If he tint, he newir vald entir in ane browster hows, bot cawsit ane of his serwandis to gange and pay for al. He wos withe the Lord Gray at the brige of St. Jhonstone, and vos ane of the first that did entir in the towne, quhar he vos teane be the lord Ruthen, bot wos schortlie delywerit. He lewit lytil ower tua zeires efter his vyf Isabelle Arbuthnots deceas, and vos seiklie thearefter, and become very penitent of his former lyf, and embraced the Reformed religione. He had withe him at syndry tymes the ministers that then wor cheifest in the countray, to wit Paule Meffane and Jhon Brabner. This Jhone was ane vehement man, inculcatine the lawe, and peane thearof; bot Paule Meffane wos ane mair myld mane, preachine the Ewangel of grace and remissione of sinnes in the blud of Christ. His yongest sone begottine on the first vyf, callid Robert, ane godly persone gewine to redine of the scripture, did nychtlie valk besyd his father, instructine him in the cheif points of religione, for he wos ane man that had beine brought vpe rudlie vithout letters, sa that he could nather reid nor vreit. At lenthe efter he had beine diseasit the space of tua zeires, withe ane fluxm he rederit his spirit to God, the thrid day of Maij, the zeir of God ane thowsand, fywe hunder and threscor zeires, the threscor and thre zeir of his age, tuentie zeires and thrie day efter his first vyues deathe Isabelle Merser, quha deceassit the last day of Aprile, the zeir of God ane thowsand fywe hundrethe and fourtie zeires, and wes buriit besyde hir in the queir of Panbryd befor the hie alter at the northe pale.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Thanks... it looked exactly like what it was... written by someone who's never been to Scotland, attempting to type in a pseudo-Scottish accent.

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

I share your sense of frustration/annoyance. In the 2020 MetaWiki discussion, I was one of the supporters of the proposal to shutdown the Scots Wikipedia completely. I'm not Scottish and don't speak Scots, but I knew how pointless trying to fix it would be how the momentum to fix it would completely evaporate within a few weeks/months of the controversy erupting;

Nuke from Orbit There's no purpose to this Wiki existing if there's not going to be anybody to actively maintain it, once this controversy has died down the attention needed to fix it will go with it. The existence of this mostly dead wiki is more of a punchline than anything else and is clearly causing distress to scots and I think we should respect their wishes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately this was drowned by naive people (who also didn't speak Scots) who thought otherwise. In the 3 years since I think I have been thoroughly vindicated.

I think you have.

[TheTranarchist]

Lingua Libre is a project of Wikimedia France. It has gathered over 1 million recordings of over 1,400 speakers in over 200 languages. Recordings of what, you ask? Words and phrases.

I am sure this has been written up somewhere, but I don't recall ever hearing about it. I've read their "about" page and I still can't determine the intended end use.

Speaking cynically since nobody else seems to have brought it up: training AI.

Voice recognition / AI voices have been going through a boom due to advances in technology and have historically been shit in basically any other language than English. A huge repository of Creative Commons training data containing thousands of word/phrase snippets in 200 languages? A fucking goldmine.

I could be being too cynical, but irrespective of whether that was Lingua Libre's intention, the boon for the AI voice recognition/simulation industry is undeniable. Though, to be fair, as much as I generally loathe big tech, I'm not sure that's a bad thing and could be quite useful for, say, Scottish people stuck in elevators lol. Just my 2 cents.

[rnu]

I share your sense of frustration/annoyance. In the 2020 MetaWiki discussion, I was one of the supporters of the proposal to shutdown the Scots Wikipedia completely. I'm not Scottish and don't speak Scots, but I knew how pointless trying to fix it would be how the momentum to fix it would completely evaporate within a few weeks/months of the controversy erupting;

Nuke from Orbit There's no purpose to this Wiki existing if there's not going to be anybody to actively maintain it, once this controversy has died down the attention needed to fix it will go with it. The existence of this mostly dead wiki is more of a punchline than anything else and is clearly causing distress to scots and I think we should respect their wishes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately this was drowned by naive people (who also didn't speak Scots) who thought otherwise. In the 3 years since I think I have been thoroughly vindicated.

That's the Wikipedia way.
- "This is embarrassing and broken. Let's get rid of it."
- "No!!!!!! You can't just get rid of it. We should fix it instead."
- "Fine. So who's up for fixing it?"

[Giraffe Stapler]

Speaking cynically since nobody else seems to have brought it up: training AI.

Voice recognition / AI voices have been going through a boom due to advances in technology and have historically been shit in basically any other language than English. A huge repository of Creative Commons training data containing thousands of word/phrase snippets in 200 languages? A fucking goldmine.

I could be being too cynical, but irrespective of whether that was Lingua Libre's intention, the boon for the AI voice recognition/simulation industry is undeniable. Though, to be fair, as much as I generally loathe big tech, I'm not sure that's a bad thing and could be quite useful for, say, Scottish people stuck in elevators lol. Just my 2 cents.

That was my first thought, too, but I dismissed it. You're going to end up with an over-representation of entries in languages that are already covered better elsewhere and very few for less common languages. When I checked, there were 3 entries for Scots language, for example. The general quality of the recordings is likely to be low, given how they are collecting them. Add to that the fact that no one is tasked with checking that the speakers actually speak the language and that the words submitted by the speakers are pronounced "correctly" (or even the right words). This isn't a dataset that any competent researcher would use for training.

[TheTranarchist]

Fair points, but I think you're underestimating the advancements in AI. In the past week, my feed's had multiple articles about how current advances allow you to mimic a voice with 30 seconds of audio (which is predictably being exploited by hackers for social engineering). The data doesn't have to be great: if you have recordings of enough people speaking in an accent an ML model will be able to emulate/recognize the accent. Also, low-fidelity recordings would be if anything better for recognition training. I do think that ML engineers wouldn't rely on the dataset exclusively, but for less commonly spoken languages even a little data would be useful. A free dataset is a free dataset lol.

I don't think Lingua Libre had the AI industry in mind when being created, and their mission seems noble if a little impractical, but AFAICT the AI industry stands to benefit materially from the project the most (even unintentionally). LL should certainly focus on at-risk languages more than commonly spoken ones though. I also think they missed a great opportunity by avoiding regional localization - it would be a lot more useful if linguists could use it to investigate/preserve accents even within a language (recording the same phrase as spoken by a native Texan, New Yorker [and even then, brooklyner or bronxite?], Londoner, and Sydneysider for example).

[Giraffe Stapler]

Fair points, but I think you're underestimating the advancements in AI...

No, I'm really not.

There are a multitude of good datasets for speech (including accents) without having to worry about whatever junk has been added to a poorly conceived Wikimedia project.

[The Blue Newt]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

Pretty much spot on... printed mid-late 19th century, compiled in 1733 from writings from 1611. Was that a guess?

[Lurking]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

Huh. Genuine question: is that text really not-very-accessible/difficult to read for native English speakers to the point it needs deciphering. rather than just reading?

Might be the advantage of familiarity with Middle and Early Modern Dutch and German, and the significant differences between modern Low Saxon dialects and standard Dutch, but if anything, that honestly struck me as "that's actually much, much closer to current English than I'd have expected for a text of a couple centuries old".

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

Huh. Genuine question: is that text really not-very-accessible/difficult to read for native English speakers to the point it needs deciphering. rather than just reading?

Might be the advantage of familiarity with Middle and Early Modern Dutch and German, and the significant differences between modern Low Saxon dialects and standard Dutch, but if anything, that honestly struck me as "that's actually much, much closer to current English than I'd have expected for a text of a couple centuries old".

It's mostly easy to read... hearing it would be another question. There's one or two words in it that I don't know but are straightforward to get from the context. Standard English from the same time period is the likes of Shakespeare and the KJV bible.

[The Blue Newt]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

Pretty much spot on... printed mid-late 19th century, compiled in 1733 from writings from 1611. Was that a guess?

Nope. It’s the annals of Panmure, right? That said, you could narrow the timeframe down pretty rapidly both by the archaic style and the reference to cardinals.

[The Blue Newt]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

Huh. Genuine question: is that text really not-very-accessible/difficult to read for native English speakers to the point it needs deciphering. rather than just reading?

Might be the advantage of familiarity with Middle and Early Modern Dutch and German, and the significant differences between modern Low Saxon dialects and standard Dutch, but if anything, that honestly struck me as "that's actually much, much closer to current English than I'd have expected for a text of a couple centuries old".

Not for some, but the “quh” throws a lot of people. If you don't have some latin, seeing that quhat=quod=what isn’t as intuitively obvious. The yogh even more so, for many.

As mentioned above, it’s about 4 centuries. Look at an excerpt from Winthrop’s “City on a Hill”, only 20 years younger, for a comparison.

“ Now the onely way to avoyde this shipwracke, and to provide for our posterity, is to
followe the counsell of Micah, to doe justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For
this end, wee must be knitt together, in this worke, as one man. Wee must entertaine each
other in brotherly affection. Wee must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for
the supply of other’s necessities. Wee must uphold a familiar commerce together in all
meekeness, gentlenes, patience and liberality. Wee must delight in eache other; make other’s
conditions our oune; rejoice together, mourne together, labour and suffer together, allwayes
haueving before our eyes our commission and community in the worke, as members of the
same body. Soe shall wee keepe the unitie of the spirit in the bond of peace. The Lord will be
our God, and delight to dwell among us, as his oune people, and will command a blessing upon
us in all our wayes. Soe that wee shall see much more of his wisdome, power, goodness and
truthe, than formerly wee have been acquainted with. Wee shall finde that the God of Israell is
among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when hee shall
make us a prayse and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, “the Lord make it like
that of New England.” For wee must consider that wee shall be as a citty upon a hill. The eies of
all people are upon us. Soe that if wee shall deale falsely with our God in this worke wee have
undertaken, and soe cause him to withdrawe his present help from us, wee shall be made a
story and a by-word through the world. Wee shall open the mouthes of enemies to speake evill
of the ways of God, and all professors for God’s sake. Wee shall shame the faces of many of
God’s worthy servants, and cause theire prayers to be turned into curses upon us till wee be
consumed out of the good land whither wee are a goeing.”

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Edit: I mean, I can't even find a single article that is in Scots. It's all just English with the occasional word changed to sound Scottish... It is fucking embarrassing.

But obviously embarrassing in a Highly Encyclopedic Way, since it’s Quite Undeletable.

A minot cavil, though. Not everybody who speaks Lallans speaks English, although that pool is dying off, and probably not very computer literate. Finding someone who doesn’t understand an English speaker, and could not respond back to him in a way he could understand would be about impossible, but it is entirely possible for people to be able to understand others languages and dialects without being able to speak them fluently, or write them convincingly.

There are attempts to keep it alive with the likes of Harry Potter, etc. being translated into Scots... but it really isn't taught as a written language in Scotland and hasn't for well over a century. The computer literate will inevitably gravitate to standard English orthography, and there's what's called the "Scottish cringe"... kilts, bagpipes, etc. are all seen as incredibly lame by Scottish kids.

Here's something I was reading earlier today that is in Scots, albeit a couple of hundred years old... notice how different it is from Scots Wikipedia...

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask.

Well, printed about 200 years ago, but compiled about 300 years ago from writings of about 400 years ago, by the look of it. By comparison, “For the Makaris”, certainly older still by about a century, is more accessible to readers of current English.

Even so, when you factor in the “Quh” for “wh” and the replacement of yogh with zed, it’s not really that indecipherable.

Pretty much spot on... printed mid-late 19th century, compiled in 1733 from writings from 1611. Was that a guess?

Nope. It’s the annals of Panmure, right? That said, you could narrow the timeframe down pretty rapidly both by the archaic style and the reference to cardinals.

That's right. I bought a facsimile of it from Amazon about 10 years ago or so... complete with the occasional photocopy of the librarian's hand. Pity it was only the first volume, but there's a wealth of fascinating stuff in there that brings Reformation period Scotland to life.

You're right... the reference to cardinals narrows it down substantially... David Beaton was the only Scottish Cardinal prior to the 20th century, if we put aside Walter Wardlaw (pseudocardinal, installed by an antipope) and Cardinal Cybo who administered the Archdiocese of St Andrews for a year after Alexander Stewart died at Flodden (now that's an interesting story... illegitimate son of James IV installed in the most senior position in the church in Scotland at age 11...)

[The Blue Newt]

Nope. It’s the annals of Panmure, right? That said, you could narrow the timeframe down pretty rapidly both by the archaic style and the reference to cardinals.

That's right. I bought a facsimile of it from Amazon about 10 years ago or so... complete with the occasional photocopy of the librarian's hand. Pity it was only the first volume, but there's a wealth of fascinating stuff in there that brings Reformation period Scotland to life.

Checking, I see that Internet Archive seems to have both volumes (complete with librarian hands).

[Lurking]

Huh. Genuine question: is that text really not-very-accessible/difficult to read for native English speakers to the point it needs deciphering. rather than just reading?

Might be the advantage of familiarity with Middle and Early Modern Dutch and German, and the significant differences between modern Low Saxon dialects and standard Dutch, but if anything, that honestly struck me as "that's actually much, much closer to current English than I'd have expected for a text of a couple centuries old".

Not for some, but the “quh” throws a lot of people. If you don't have some latin, seeing that quhat=quod=what isn’t as intuitively obvious. The yogh even more so, for many.

As mentioned above, it’s about 4 centuries. Look at an excerpt from Winthrop’s “City on a Hill”, only 20 years younger, for a comparison.

“ Now the onely way to avoyde this shipwracke, and to provide for our posterity, is to
followe the counsell of Micah, to doe justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For
this end, wee must be knitt together, in this worke, as one man. Wee must entertaine each
other in brotherly affection. Wee must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for
the supply of other’s necessities. Wee must uphold a familiar commerce together in all
meekeness, gentlenes, patience and liberality. Wee must delight in eache other; make other’s
conditions our oune; rejoice together, mourne together, labour and suffer together, allwayes
haueving before our eyes our commission and community in the worke, as members of the
same body. Soe shall wee keepe the unitie of the spirit in the bond of peace. The Lord will be
our God, and delight to dwell among us, as his oune people, and will command a blessing upon
us in all our wayes. Soe that wee shall see much more of his wisdome, power, goodness and
truthe, than formerly wee have been acquainted with. Wee shall finde that the God of Israell is
among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when hee shall
make us a prayse and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, “the Lord make it like
that of New England.” For wee must consider that wee shall be as a citty upon a hill. The eies of
all people are upon us. Soe that if wee shall deale falsely with our God in this worke wee have
undertaken, and soe cause him to withdrawe his present help from us, wee shall be made a
story and a by-word through the world. Wee shall open the mouthes of enemies to speake evill
of the ways of God, and all professors for God’s sake. Wee shall shame the faces of many of
God’s worthy servants, and cause theire prayers to be turned into curses upon us till wee be
consumed out of the good land whither wee are a goeing.”

Ah, I suppose that makes sense. And huh. English spelling has remained a lot more consistent than Dutch in recent centuries, then. Written Dutch of, say, the 1920s is at least as distant from current Dutch spelling as ^ is from current English. Perhaps more distant, even.