Wikipedia intentionally distorting Holocaust history?

[Arishok]

Arb Primefac quickly reverted the entire post as 'not evidence'. Other non-evidence stuff has been moved elsewhere, but that particular one seems to have been simply removed.

[Midsize Jake]

Arb Primefac quickly reverted the entire post as 'not evidence'. Other non-evidence stuff has been moved elsewhere, but that particular one seems to have been simply removed.

Not the least bit surprising, really. They know that media people are watching this case, so on these pages it's particularly important to keep the "quiet part" quiet. Like I suggested earlier, I think they'll get away with all this in the end, but only if they stay sharp on their media discipline.

But let's face it — they all know what the stakes are internally, unless their plan is to just get to the end and then pretend the whole thing never happened.

[Ryuichi]

diff

Personally, I'd say he's just taking the somewhat-standard Wikipedian tendencies toward insularity, wagon-circling, and general arrogance to their logical conclusion. I mean, from their perspective, he's basically right — G&K are employing an "external vector" (my term) to "cast aspersions" (WP's term) on Wikipedians and Wikipedia in general; they're clearly doing it to remain aloof and avoid being dragged into the nasty mud-pit of Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures (which they're fully cognizant of); and if they succeed in the end, there probably will be more use of that vector in the future, and not just on Holocaust-related topics.

He's just saying the quiet part out loud, in other words. I'm not saying he's a hero for doing that or for believing this stuff, but to be honest, it's actually sort of refreshing to see someone do it.

Can see, and concur with, the refreshingness of it being explicitly stated.

But there's a certain "head up assery" (technical term) to viewing the JHR article as a component of a Wikipedia dispute.

It's the tail wagging the tamarin.

[nableezy]

I was a bit amused to read about the concerns Nableezy raised about editors working for the Israeli government

hwhat

[Midsize Jake]

I was a bit amused to read about the concerns Nableezy raised about editors working for the Israeli government

hwhat

I think we're going to have to impose a special "Bezdomni Innuendo Rule," whereby any member who has been targeted by Mr. Bezdomni with an unlinked or deceptively-linked innuendo (or outright allegation/accusation) that takes more than 60 seconds to find where the thing he's supposedly referring to might be on the internet can have the innuendo either removed, or flagged with a bright red "moderator's note."

[Volunteer Marek]

I was a bit amused to read about the concerns Nableezy raised about editors working for the Israeli government

hwhat

I think he's confusing you with Nishidani. Probably intentionally.

[Midsize Jake]

I think he's confusing you with Nishidani. Probably intentionally.

Ahh, you're right — it's here, and then you just search within the page for the word "incoompetence" [sic] for the exchange in question, between Mr. Nishidani and Mr. Groceryheist. Or you could look for "ballistic naivity", that would work just as well.

I'll correct the original post...

[Bezdomni]

My sincere apologies, I don't know how I got you confused with Nishidani, Nableezy. Nishidani is a lot more aggressive and much fonder of his adjectives, adverbs, and tortuous syntax.

Thank you for finding that so quickly Jake... I was looking for it in the Signpost threads, so hadn't found the diff at ANI yet. You may also need to correct the name where VM selectively quoted me. From the above, It appears he knew I was making a mistake on the identity of the author when he copied the mistake.

[Midsize Jake]

You may also need to correct the name where VM selectively quoted me.

Already done! I've been doing this forum-mod stuff for a while, y'see.

[Arishok]

TrangaBellam and Elinruby have also now been IBanned. Elinruby had been clearly trying to get TrangaBellam added to the case as a party. Bishonen, who imposed the IBan at TrangaBellam's request, had initially made an exception for posting evidence to this Arbcase, but Barkeep has revoked that exception.

[Vice Cabal Leader]

TrangaBellam and Elinruby have also now been IBanned. Elinruby had been clearly trying to get TrangaBellam added to the case as a party. Bishonen, who imposed the IBan at TrangaBellam's request, had initially made an exception for posting evidence to this Arbcase, but Barkeep has revoked that exception.

Maybe because their watchlists were going crazy with Elinruby's style of editing the evidence page every 5 minutes

https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/ ... d/Evidence

Top editors. Top 10 by edits: Elinruby · 125 (50%)

[GizzyCatBella]

My sincere apologies, I don't know how I got you confused with Nishidani, Nableezy. Nishidani is a lot more aggressive and much fonder of his adjectives, adverbs, and tortuous syntax.

Thank you for finding that so quickly Jake... I was looking for it in the Signpost threads, so hadn't found the diff at ANI yet. You may also need to correct the name where VM selectively quoted me. From the above, It appears he knew I was making a mistake on the identity of the author when he copied the mistake.

- Now after continued falsehoods, lies and persistent bad-mouthing VM despite a pledge to leave VM alone (see links I already provided in this thread) our friend Bezdomni (aka SashiRolls) desires the conditions that allowed their account to be partly un-banned on Wikipedia modified.- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... rbCom_Case.

[MrErnie]

Are you the SashiRolls cop? You’ve just been warned at AE. Please consider that this type of behavior may not always reflect well upon you and that you really should still be topic banned from EE.

Find someone else to harass.

[Vigilant]

"Siri, show me how to harden someone's resolve."

Your unwillingness to consider your overreach and your arrogant tone have been noted ("... is thataway", "likelihood of my going back over... is about none", etc.) There was no need to add restrictions for a clear majority of people in that discussion to accept the unban. You made a super-vote to add ridiculous limitations, presumably as a reminder that you were very powerful after almost 2 years in the projects and that I was not after well over a decade of contributing to the projects. I had hoped you would recognize your overreach and recognize that there was still room for growth now that your SFR account had turned 2. I will not bother you further now that I've given you a chance to reconsider your actions and you have declined to do so. -- SashiRolls · 12:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

[Bezdomni]

You're surely right, Siri...

Given that OPs "hardness" was already in the titanium/corundum range, I didn't figure it mattered much. I still believe that GCB and VM's proactive (and diff-less) effort to curb-kick anyone knowledgeable about their stonewalling on the Dalej jest noc (T-H-L) page was worth mentioning, but I see it's been picked up on recently. We'll see if someone mentions the "threaten the author" method VM uses on the talk page (curiously archived along with SFR's activities on that page on 18 March 2023 at 07:04) at the ArbCom case... the claim was debunked both here and in another section of the talk page...

[Arishok]

Hopefully Sashi understands that if they post anything on AN or ANI complaining about the restrictions, they're overwhelmingly likely to be promptly indeffed again.

I will say that I have great distaste for any attempt to apply IBans or TBans imposed on WP to posts made on other websites, especially here on WPO, and that I felt like I saw some shades of that re: SashiRolls recently.

[Midsize Jake]

I will say that I have great distaste for any attempt to apply IBans or TBans imposed on WP to posts made on other websites, especially here on WPO, and that I felt like I saw some shades of that re: SashiRolls recently.

That's one of the reasons we haven't actually done that here, but let's face it, if he's going to do the same thing here that he does there, then we might eventually have to do "something" here too just to keep things on the straight-and-narrow.

Then again, if I'm being completely honest, I still think he's actually doing his side more harm than good. His "inimitable style" usually comes off as charming or eccentric, but this is a much more serious context, so instead he's coming off like some sort of would-be Bond villain. It's just not the right look, I'm afraid.

[Bezdomni]

Jake, we know which camp you have been in since at least 2019, so we know that having a salt pillar or two is handy when reading your comments in this thread. As you may recall, I was first sympathetic to the so-called "ethnic" Poles, given Icewhiz's overly-pumped prose, but became less so as I learned more.

A few hours ago, GCB imported a request I made concerning Polish jazz & Russian literature on SFR's talk page here. Such concerns have little to do with the topic of this thread, except insofar as GCB is the cause of the need for such a request.

I am no villain, and have certainly never sat through an entire Bond movie... so I think we might as well just close down this attempted distraction and focus on the evidence now on the table at ArbCom.

[Volunteer Marek]

Jake, we know which camp you have been in since at least 2019, so we know that having a salt pillar or two is handy when reading your comments in this thread. As you may recall, I was first sympathetic to the so-called "ethnic" Poles, given Icewhiz's overly-pumped prose, but became less so as I learned more.

A few hours ago, GCB imported a request I made concerning Polish jazz & Russian literature on SFR's talk page here. Such concerns have little to do with the topic of this thread, except insofar as GCB is the cause of the need for such a request.

I am no villain, and have certainly never sat through an entire Bond movie... so I think we might as well just close down this attempted distraction and focus on the evidence now on the table at ArbCom.

You weren't just asking to have the restriction relaxed to let you edit "Polish jazz & Russian literature" though, were you? That part was a little distraction, while the essence of your request is to change the IBAN to let you participate in the ArbCom case because you just can't help yourself. You basically want to go back to the same ol' same ol'. And frankly, if I was going to be a dick about it I could easily report you for this part of your statement: "As you know less than two weeks after requesting my ban from Eastern Europe pages, VM was sanctioned in this very area. GCB has recently been warned about her actions in the area. " since it was pretty irrelevant to your request (nothing to do with Polish jazz & Russian literature).

You're not fooling anyone here buddy.

[Bezdomni]

Don't be an idiot. I am allowed to ask the administrator imposing an I-Ban to change it. It's called an appeal. They are allowed to decline. Read WP:BANEX. A 2-way ban is appropriate as this thread and your subsequent sanctions and actions abundantly show. Also, with nothing having been logged, asking for clarification on whether he was serious or not about imposing a sanction requested by 2 notorious troublemakers is not unreasonable...

Now how about that evidence at ArbCom?

[Arishok]

The statement quoted above by Vig, received by SFR as 'personal attacks', would serve as much better fodder for "dickishly" reporting Sashi to a noticeboard than the putative IBan violation, I think.

On another note, VM has started to get slightly snippy on the Analysis page with arb Wugapodes. Regardless of whether or not this is justified, such snippiness toward Arbs can sometimes end poorly for case parties. Just saying.

[Midsize Jake]

I am no villain, and have certainly never sat through an entire Bond movie... so I think we might as well just close down this attempted distraction and focus on the evidence now on the table at ArbCom.

I'm perfectly willing to close down the "attempted distraction" to the extent that that's possible, but you really should check out a few Bond movies to get some idea as to how you're coming off (or were, until just now). I'd start with Dr. No (which also happens to be the first chronologically), but then skip ahead to Goldfinger, then Moonraker, and finally A View to a Kill. Also, all three Austin Powers movies, and if you have time, take a look at some videos of Steve Mnuchin and his wife during the Trump Administration.

[Volunteer Marek]

The statement quoted above by Vig, received by SFR as 'personal attacks', would serve as much better fodder for "dickishly" reporting Sashi to a noticeboard than the putative IBan violation, I think.

On another note, VM has started to get slightly snippy on the Analysis page with arb Wugapodes. Regardless of whether or not this is justified, such snippiness toward Arbs can sometimes end poorly for case parties. Just saying.

Wugapodes is not getting the evidence they want or expected so they're trying to introduce evidence themselves (in addition to just offering insanely biased and obviously incorrect interpretations of others' evidence). Based on my previous interactions with Wugapodes I didn't really expect anything different from them. So I think it's better if this is out in the open rather than happening behind the scenes.

[Zoloft]

I am no villain, and have certainly never sat through an entire Bond movie... so I think we might as well just close down this attempted distraction and focus on the evidence now on the table at ArbCom.

I'm perfectly willing to close down the "attempted distraction" to the extent that that's possible, but you really should check out a few Bond movies to get some idea as to how you're coming off (or were, until just now). I'd start with Dr. No (which also happens to be the first chronologically), but then skip ahead to Goldfinger, then Moonraker, and finally A View to a Kill. Also, all three Austin Powers movies, and if you have time, take a look at some videos of Steve Mnuchin and his wife during the Trump Administration.

I humbly suggest this image for their new avatar:
     

sashirolls.jpg

[Konveyor Belt]

The statement quoted above by Vig, received by SFR as 'personal attacks', would serve as much better fodder for "dickishly" reporting Sashi to a noticeboard than the putative IBan violation, I think.

On another note, VM has started to get slightly snippy on the Analysis page with arb Wugapodes. Regardless of whether or not this is justified, such snippiness toward Arbs can sometimes end poorly for case parties. Just saying.

Wugapodes is not getting the evidence they want or expected so they're trying to introduce evidence themselves (in addition to just offering insanely biased and obviously incorrect interpretations of others' evidence). Based on my previous interactions with Wugapodes I didn't really expect anything different from them. So I think it's better if this is out in the open rather than happening behind the scenes.

Quite frankly I think you're being a little difficult over there. If Ealdgyth presented only a few diffs of an edit war, it makes sense to consider the whole edit war in the summary. This is especially important when Ealdgyth has to abide by strict word and diff limits, while the summary does not. It's also not unusual for arbitrators or other judicial/quasi-judicial bodies to ask for more evidence if they think there are missing pieces. In this case pieces are missing—Ealdgyth presented evidence focused on the veracity of statements being added to the article, Wugapodes is asking for evidence focused on the conduct on the associated talk pages. This is all pretty usual business and should not be looked at so conspiratorially.

[Volunteer Marek]

The statement quoted above by Vig, received by SFR as 'personal attacks', would serve as much better fodder for "dickishly" reporting Sashi to a noticeboard than the putative IBan violation, I think.

On another note, VM has started to get slightly snippy on the Analysis page with arb Wugapodes. Regardless of whether or not this is justified, such snippiness toward Arbs can sometimes end poorly for case parties. Just saying.

Wugapodes is not getting the evidence they want or expected so they're trying to introduce evidence themselves (in addition to just offering insanely biased and obviously incorrect interpretations of others' evidence). Based on my previous interactions with Wugapodes I didn't really expect anything different from them. So I think it's better if this is out in the open rather than happening behind the scenes.

Quite frankly I think you're being a little difficult over there. If Ealdgyth presented only a few diffs of an edit war, it makes sense to consider the whole edit war in the summary. This is especially important when Ealdgyth has to abide by strict word and diff limits, while the summary does not. It's also not unusual for arbitrators or other judicial/quasi-judicial bodies to ask for more evidence if they think there are missing pieces. In this case pieces are missing—Ealdgyth presented evidence focused on the veracity of statements being added to the article, Wugapodes is asking for evidence focused on the conduct on the associated talk pages. This is all pretty usual business and should not be looked at so conspiratorially.

I don't really have much of a problem with Ealdgyth's evidence except for that one part where she says source doesn't support a line of text where it actually does. But that's routine disagreement. Other than that, as usual, she makes some good points regarding content. I don't care much about that issue.

My concerns are rather with the way that Wugapodes just completely dismissed my evidence of "contentiousness" of the topic area with some... strange reasoning (what would usually be called "I just don't like it") and the way they've been piggy-backing their own submissions of evidence on the evidence of others - adding claims from FR and Mhorg that neither have submitted themselves or pulling stuff from old AE (2018!) reports that have been references but not submitted as evidence either.

[nableezy]

So I think it's better if this is out in the open rather than happening behind the scenes.

I'll take things that are never going to end well for 500 Alex.

Honestly, shades of Sashi's response to SFR, you arent going to get somebody to say hey maybe I should give this an open-minded re-read by harranguing them.

[Arishok]

Wugapodes is not getting the evidence they want or expected so they're trying to introduce evidence themselves (in addition to just offering insanely biased and obviously incorrect interpretations of others' evidence). Based on my previous interactions with Wugapodes I didn't really expect anything different from them. So I think it's better if this is out in the open rather than happening behind the scenes.

El_C has now added the quoted paragraph to evidence.

[Midsize Jake]

El_C has now added the quoted paragraph to evidence.

He even remembered to include a linked attribution! (It's not "the" WPO, though — that would imply that there's only one, and we don't lay exclusive claim to that acronym in deference to the World Powerlifting Organization.)

He has a point, too, by way of emphasizing the term "insanely biased." Something less connotative of mental-health issues, like "ridiculously," would probably be more appropriate.

[Arishok]

In a completely unsurprising development given recent shenanigans, Elinruby and TrangaBellam have now been formally added as parties.

Accordingly, the previous IBan-exemption for the case has been restored.

[tarantino]

It seems likely to me that TrangaBellam (T-C-L) is a reincarnation of Winged Blades of Godric (T-C-L).

[Midsize Jake]

It seems likely to me that TrangaBellam (T-C-L) is a reincarnation of Winged Blades of Godric (T-C-L).

C'mon, we've been over this. Nobody here believes in reincarnation!

[Bezdomni]

Don't be silly, Jake. (Instant) karma is a thing. I mentioned it in this thread shortly after noting how Marek was calling Glaukopis a reliable source while editing pages related to his enemy Grabowski (diff).

[Trench]

It seems likely to me that TrangaBellam (T-C-L) is a reincarnation of Winged Blades of Godric (T-C-L).

I too believe in this .His style is that of Winged Blades of Godric (T-C-L) who suddenly left.

[Bezdomni]

It seems likely to me that TrangaBellam (T-C-L) is a reincarnation of Winged Blades of Godric (T-C-L).

I too believe in this .His style is that of Winged Blades of Godric (T-C-L) who suddenly left.

There are certainly some traits in common with WiBloG including edit summary habits, and the idiosyncratic use of the preposition "over" (which may be related instead to S. Asian English rather than idiosyncratic, I don't know).

The change from male to female is reminiscent of GCB, while the change from chemical engineering to statistics is not.

In any case, they seem to be closing up shop on en.wp now.

[nableezy]

El_C has now added the quoted paragraph to evidence.

He even remembered to include a linked attribution! (It's not "the" WPO, though — that would imply that there's only one, and we don't lay exclusive claim to that acronym in deference to the World Powerlifting Organization.)

He has a point, too, by way of emphasizing the term "insanely biased." Something less connotative of mental-health issues, like "ridiculously," would probably be more appropriate.

No thats bullshit tbh. Youre allowed to feel how you feel about something and WPO does not have the standards that WP has for conducting oneself with at least a veneer of politeness. El C's continued attempt to make discussions at a third party website a factor in what happens on WP is something that I hope gets rejected out of hand. I dont think VM was wise to make the comments he made on WP, because it opens him up to a FoF ''Volunteer Marek conducted himself in an uncollegial manner during these proceedings". But what he says here shouldnt even be allowed to be introduced on WP so long as it does not actually come under the "offsite harassment" policies. And it doesnt. It isnt smart to do it here either, because we all know everybody reads these threads, and the only way itll sway anybody who doesnt have their mind made up is against him, but it should not be evidence for an on-wiki proceeding.

[charliemouse]

I think Piotrus hits the nail on the head here. This gets to my reservations about this whole thing. Nobody has an active complaint about anyone else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... ode=source

[Arishok]

Barkeep having previously revoked the Arbcase exception to ER and TB’s IBan apparently ticked off Bishonen, who as the sanctioning admin felt insufficiently informed of this modification, spawning a whole pile of words on Bishonen’s talkpage about the issue.

[Midsize Jake]

No thats bullshit tbh. Youre allowed to feel how you feel about something and WPO does not have the standards that WP has for conducting oneself with at least a veneer of politeness.

Well, just for the record, I'd like to say that I don't fully agree with that — IMO, it would be more accurate to say we don't have their long history/system of complex penalties and punishments for failing to conduct oneself in an arguably-civilized fashion. There are other, more "positive" ways to impose (or at least encourage) standards.

Admittedly, we have an advantage here in that there are far fewer people and fewer procedural/technical hassles to deal with. I'm not pretending that we're "smarter" about it or anything, if that helps.

[Midsize Jake]

I think Piotrus hits the nail on the head here. This gets to my reservations about this whole thing. Nobody has an active complaint about anyone else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... ode=source

To be fair, though, Mr. Icewhiz has long-since been banned, which is really the only thing that's "inactive" about the complaint. So this is only technically correct.

Still, Mr. Piotrus is a smart guy, and he's been doing the smart thing over there by emphasizing this notion that "Wikipedia worked properly, as designed!" in the various incidents making up the dispute. Maybe it did, and I suppose he should keep saying it, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia can actually solve longstanding real-world disputes (like the one between Poland and the European-Jewish diaspora and their descendants) simply by applying Wikipedia's rules to them. People still have to make compromises and, occasionally, admit fault — among other potentially-unpleasant things.

[Konveyor Belt]

No thats bullshit tbh. Youre allowed to feel how you feel about something and WPO does not have the standards that WP has for conducting oneself with at least a veneer of politeness.

Well, just for the record, I'd like to say that I don't fully agree with that — IMO, it would be more accurate to say we don't have their long history/system of complex penalties and punishments for failing to conduct oneself in an arguably-civilized fashion. There are other, more "positive" ways to impose (or at least encourage) standards.

Admittedly, we have an advantage here in that there are far fewer people and fewer procedural/technical hassles to deal with. I'm not pretending that we're "smarter" about it or anything, if that helps.

Wikipedia also likes to dole out its punishments on a higher level of abstraction than a forum like this might. I'm not sure that if VM had said that on WP he would have been blocked immediately, even though he clearly would not have been conducting himself in a civilized fashion. Him saying that onwiki would likely later be used as evidence for a punishment based not on the fact that he failed to comport himself in such-and-such a manner, but that he had a "battleground mentality" or was "tendentiously editing". There's constant examples of experienced editors losing their cool onwiki, but as long as it's against a new user or IP nobody cares.

[MrErnie]

Levivich has the motivation and capability to add some incriminating evidence, but he seems to have decided to take a break in the wake of the I-ban SFR imposed on him and VM, shortly after VM garnered yet another sanction in the topic area. This seems to be Lev’s first.

[Disgruntled haddock]

Levivich has the motivation and capability to add some incriminating evidence, but he seems to have decided to take a break in the wake of the I-ban SFR imposed on him and VM, shortly after VM garnered yet another sanction in the topic area. This seems to be Lev’s first.

He'll just go back to his master account

[Zoloft]

Wikipedia editors in contentious areas:

[Volunteer Marek]

No thats bullshit tbh. Youre allowed to feel how you feel about something and WPO does not have the standards that WP has for conducting oneself with at least a veneer of politeness.

Well, just for the record, I'd like to say that I don't fully agree with that — IMO, it would be more accurate to say we don't have their long history/system of complex penalties and punishments for failing to conduct oneself in an arguably-civilized fashion. There are other, more "positive" ways to impose (or at least encourage) standards.

Admittedly, we have an advantage here in that there are far fewer people and fewer procedural/technical hassles to deal with. I'm not pretending that we're "smarter" about it or anything, if that helps.

Wikipedia also likes to dole out its punishments on a higher level of abstraction than a forum like this might. I'm not sure that if VM had said that on WP he would have been blocked immediately, even though he clearly would not have been conducting himself in a civilized fashion. Him saying that onwiki would likely later be used as evidence for a punishment based not on the fact that he failed to comport himself in such-and-such a manner, but that he had a "battleground mentality" or was "tendentiously editing". There's constant examples of experienced editors losing their cool onwiki, but as long as it's against a new user or IP nobody cares.

Right, calling someone's summary of another's comment "insanely biased" would probably not even raise much of an eyebrow ON Wikipedia if made at ANI or AN or something. El C is just being hyperbolic and pretending something is much worse than it is because they're mad they don't get to play police over here as well. Also, El_C, I did not "disparage" Wugapodes (I wouldn't do that since I have respect for them for other reasons). I *criticized* them, for something very specific. There is a difference and it'd be useful if an administrator knew what it was.

Levivich has the motivation and capability to add some incriminating evidence, but he seems to have decided to take a break in the wake of the I-ban SFR imposed on him and VM, shortly after VM garnered yet another sanction in the topic area. This seems to be Lev’s first.

Eh. The IBAN came after this comment from Levivich: diff which I'm pretty sure under any other circumstances would have resulted in a hefty block for them. Honestly the IBAN is 3 years overdue and I welcomed it, while Levivich complained about it, which kind of shows you who is intent on buggin' and griefin' who.

[Volunteer Marek]

oh my god diff

Not trying to antagonize you El_C. You're again engaging in hyperbole.

[Vigilant]

If there was ever a group of people who should spend their time in purgatory in a tree chipper, this is it.

[Bezdomni]

Amazingly, supposedly busy polluting the planet with fossil fuel emissions, Marek still finds time to pollute here.

I guess not everyone has engineered their life to be able to claim 20 years of abstinence from the daily pollute.

[Arishok]

Eh. The IBAN came after this comment from Levivich: diff which I'm pretty sure under any other circumstances would have resulted in a hefty block for them. Honestly the IBAN is 3 years overdue and I welcomed it, while Levivich complained about it, which kind of shows you who is intent on buggin' and griefin' who.

That linked comment from Levivich is pretty over the line IMO, and it's slightly surprising you haven't submitted it as evidence in the Arbcase.

[Arishok]

Gitz6666 (T-C-L) has now been added as a party.

I predict some kind of IBan remedy with Gitz and VM will ultimately pass.