Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

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AndyTheGrump
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Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by AndyTheGrump » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:52 am

I think we've been here before: Is he alive, or is he dead? The mystery of the obituary, the Wikipedia biography, and the fugitive from justice...

Brian Eley (T-H-L) (TLDR version: former British chess champion, been on the lam since the 1990s after allegedly molesting young boys)

Discussion on WP:BLPN regarding findagrave.com 'reliable sources', and a possibly-photoshopped image. link

I'd like to state publicly, for the record, that I'm absolutely convinced that Eley is either alive or dead... :reaper:

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by tarantino » Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:42 am

There's a long thread about this on an English chess forum. Some of the people commenting knew him or played on a team he captained.

One of the interesting links from the thread: When a Man Disappears from an Interpol List: the strange case of Brian Eley.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Carcharoth » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:38 am

tarantino wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:42 am
There's a long thread about this on an English chess forum. Some of the people commenting knew him or played on a team he captained.

One of the interesting links from the thread: When a Man Disappears from an Interpol List: the strange case of Brian Eley.
Well spotted! I shouldn't say much more (mainly because the thread here is in a public part of this forum). FWIW, I never met him (I was too young), but I do know some of the people that knew him and are talking about him. [EDIT: To clarify, as a chess player myself I know a fair number of people in the UK chess scene, though some only 'online'.]

There is now a very long (and in places rather disturbing) eulogy on the FindAGrave website from the pastor at the funeral, giving some insight into how people can vanish and then set themselves up again in a new place. To quote directly: "He kept the circles of people with whom he associated emphatically separated."

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/240 ... liffe-eley

Someone should really make a copy of that euology as it might not persist (I have only just now read it in full). It also includes a 'tribute' from another person who knew him (presumably one of those in the photo of people at his graveside) and a description of his last days (a bit sobering to read that).

Also possibly of interest:

https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/eley.html
https://www.kingpinchess.net/2022/06/poetry-corner/

PS. Photo on coffin having a Getty watermark is almost certainly because the person preparing a photo for the funeral just copied it off the internet. The 'grave marker' photo is very weird. Hope it isn't all some big hoax...

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by AndyTheGrump » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:36 pm

Do we know anyone in Amsterdam who could check the grave? The findagrave webpage includes the exact location. No good for Wikipedia (WP:OR and all that) but it would at least indicate whether this is worth following up on.

Regarding the 'eulogy', it is worth noting that the person responsible for it shares a name with the Wikipedia contributor who first brought the news of Eley's death to Wikipedia: Andreas Wöhle (T-C-L). And in doing so, immediately went to List of fugitives from justice who disappeared (T-H-L), rather suggesting that the author of the eulogy knew more than was publicly stated. Google seems to suggest that there is indeed a Lutheran pastor under that name in Amsterdam, though that doesn't of course guarantee that someone isn't imitating him.

If I had to guess though, I'd probably go with Eley being dead, in spite of the oddities. As I noted on the BLP thread, there are no doubt a great many Wikipedia bio's which omit the subject's final demise - a direct consequence of deriving 'notability' from the sort of sources that are only interested in immediate headlines, and aren't going to follow up stories decades later just to tell their readers something of no great consequence about things they will have long forgotten, if they ever read them in the first place.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Carcharoth » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:57 pm

If ever I am in Amsterdam (I may be in Europe over the summer, but probably not there) then I will make sure that I put this near the top of my list of things to do while there (no, not really). Having said that, I do actually make a habit of photographing graves of those with Wikipedia articles. It would feel a bit strange to make a point of photographing this one. There is a difference between photographing Alekhine's grave in Paris and visiting this grave.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:29 pm

AndyTheGrump wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:36 pm
Do we know anyone in Amsterdam who could check the grave?
We do, but he isn't reliable or trustworthy. And he may not even be entirely sane.

I don't find it hard to believe that a 75 year-old man has died. I don't think the image of the grave marker is photoshopped, but I do understand why it might appear that way to some people. On the other hand, there seem to be reasons why this person would want to fake their death, so who knows?

The part that interests me is MaxBrowne2 (T-C-L), someone who has been on Wikipedia since 2007 (see MaxBrowne (T-C-L)) amassing about 14,000 edits, not being able to understand that reliable sources are needed to say someone is dead. A fairly typical example of how Wikipedia doesn't work.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:32 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:29 pm
AndyTheGrump wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:36 pm
Do we know anyone in Amsterdam who could check the grave?
We do, but he isn't reliable or trustworthy. And he may not even be entirely sane.
He seems to have dropped off the grid.
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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:03 pm

tarantino wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:42 am
There's a long thread about this on an English chess forum. Some of the people commenting knew him or played on a team he captained.
TIL a new word, “patzer.”

Unfortunately, it is probably a good personal epithet.

PS: I notice no one has written “done an Alahverdian“ or such here; I wonder if some names are too complicated for eponyms.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:42 pm

The Blue Newt wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:03 pm
PS: I notice no one has written “done an Alahverdian“ or such here; I wonder if some names are too complicated for eponyms.
I was just about to but you ruined it for me. :sadbanana:

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:38 am

The Garbage Scow wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:42 pm
The Blue Newt wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:03 pm
PS: I notice no one has written “done an Alahverdian“ or such here; I wonder if some names are too complicated for eponyms.
I was just about to but you ruined it for me. :sadbanana:
Seems like it’d work better for a high-wire act: The 22 Flyering Alaverdians.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by MaxBrowne2 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:27 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:29 pm

The part that interests me is MaxBrowne2 (T-C-L), someone who has been on Wikipedia since 2007 (see MaxBrowne (T-C-L)) amassing about 14,000 edits, not being able to understand that reliable sources are needed to say someone is dead. A fairly typical example of how Wikipedia doesn't work.

(archive of memorial)
Please give me some credit, I was the one who reverted the findagrave source and inserted a wikinote advising editors not to use it. I'm not some newbie.

I just thought this was possibly an IAR situation because neither the mainstream press nor the chess press are especially keen to memorialise a child sex abuser who is notable in other aspects of his life,. I'm concerned that it might take many years before his death is noted in what wikipedia considers reliable sources (and even then they'll probably base it on findagrave). I tried a slightly sneaky workaround by linking the Yorkshire Chess Federation reporting on the findagrave site, but wikipedia wasn't buying it.

The other person identified in the obituary is Amsterdam psychotherapist Carolien Entrop. https://www.trauma-therapie-amsterdam.nl/ She can be seen in one of the pics along with the rather eccentric Lutheran pastor. They were probably his only 5 remaining friends in the world.

It's weird, we can say he's a child sex abuser but we can't say he's dead.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Zoloft » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:42 am

MaxBrowne2 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:27 am
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:29 pm

The part that interests me is MaxBrowne2 (T-C-L), someone who has been on Wikipedia since 2007 (see MaxBrowne (T-C-L)) amassing about 14,000 edits, not being able to understand that reliable sources are needed to say someone is dead. A fairly typical example of how Wikipedia doesn't work.

(archive of memorial)
Please give me some credit, I was the one who reverted the findagrave source and inserted a wikinote advising editors not to use it. I'm not some newbie.

I just thought this was possibly an IAR situation because neither the mainstream press nor the chess press are especially keen to memorialise a child sex abuser who is notable in other aspects of his life,. I'm concerned that it might take many years before his death is noted in what wikipedia considers reliable sources (and even then they'll probably base it on findagrave). I tried a slightly sneaky workaround by linking the Yorkshire Chess Federation reporting on the findagrave site, but wikipedia wasn't buying it.

The other person identified in the obituary is Amsterdam psychotherapist Carolien Entrop. https://www.trauma-therapie-amsterdam.nl/ She can be seen in one of the pics along with the rather eccentric Lutheran pastor. They were probably his only 5 remaining friends in the world.

It's weird, we can say he's a child sex abuser but we can't say he's dead.
:welcome:

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Enjoy the funnel cake (T-H-L).

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by AndyTheGrump » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:49 pm

Maybe the solution here would be to take the invocation of the WP:IAR rule to its logical conclusion, and engage in a bit of editorialising - add this to the article:
According to sources that Wikipedia wouldn't normally trust, Eley died in April 2022, and is buried in Amsterdam.
Probably too honest for most Wikipedians though, since it rather gives the game away as to what goes on behind the curtain.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:27 pm

MaxBrowne2 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:27 am
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:29 pm

The part that interests me is MaxBrowne2 (T-C-L), someone who has been on Wikipedia since 2007 (see MaxBrowne (T-C-L)) amassing about 14,000 edits, not being able to understand that reliable sources are needed to say someone is dead. A fairly typical example of how Wikipedia doesn't work.

(archive of memorial)
Please give me some credit, I was the one who reverted the findagrave source and inserted a wikinote advising editors not to use it. I'm not some newbie.

I just thought this was possibly an IAR situation because neither the mainstream press nor the chess press are especially keen to memorialise a child sex abuser who is notable in other aspects of his life,. I'm concerned that it might take many years before his death is noted in what wikipedia considers reliable sources (and even then they'll probably base it on findagrave). I tried a slightly sneaky workaround by linking the Yorkshire Chess Federation reporting on the findagrave site, but wikipedia wasn't buying it.

The other person identified in the obituary is Amsterdam psychotherapist Carolien Entrop. https://www.trauma-therapie-amsterdam.nl/ She can be seen in one of the pics along with the rather eccentric Lutheran pastor. They were probably his only 5 remaining friends in the world.

It's weird, we can say he's a child sex abuser but we can't say he's dead.
No, Wikipedia can't say he is a "child sex abuser". It can, however, say that he has been accused, charged, and is a fugitive from those charges. Why? Because that's what reliable sources say. You may have been doing this for many years, but you don't seem to have grasped what is really a very simple principle.

Is Eley dead? I don't know, but I am aware of at least one other fugitive from justice who has faked his own death.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by ScotFinnRadish » Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:54 pm

Zoloft wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:42 am
MaxBrowne2 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:27 am
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:29 pm

The part that interests me is MaxBrowne2 (T-C-L), someone who has been on Wikipedia since 2007 (see MaxBrowne (T-C-L)) amassing about 14,000 edits, not being able to understand that reliable sources are needed to say someone is dead. A fairly typical example of how Wikipedia doesn't work.

(archive of memorial)
Please give me some credit, I was the one who reverted the findagrave source and inserted a wikinote advising editors not to use it. I'm not some newbie.

I just thought this was possibly an IAR situation because neither the mainstream press nor the chess press are especially keen to memorialise a child sex abuser who is notable in other aspects of his life,. I'm concerned that it might take many years before his death is noted in what wikipedia considers reliable sources (and even then they'll probably base it on findagrave). I tried a slightly sneaky workaround by linking the Yorkshire Chess Federation reporting on the findagrave site, but wikipedia wasn't buying it.

The other person identified in the obituary is Amsterdam psychotherapist Carolien Entrop. https://www.trauma-therapie-amsterdam.nl/ She can be seen in one of the pics along with the rather eccentric Lutheran pastor. They were probably his only 5 remaining friends in the world.

It's weird, we can say he's a child sex abuser but we can't say he's dead.
:welcome:

to our little circus!

Enjoy the funnel cake (T-H-L).
What the fuck?! No one offered me funnel cake. Probably because everyone thought I was flyer.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:47 pm

ScotFinnRadish wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:54 pm
What the fuck?! No one offered me funnel cake. Probably because everyone thought I was flyer.
We heard you only eat rabbits...

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:09 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:27 pm
MaxBrowne2 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:27 am
It's weird, we can say he's a child sex abuser but we can't say he's dead.
No, Wikipedia can't say he is a "child sex abuser". It can, however, say that he has been accused, charged, and is a fugitive from those charges. Why? Because that's what reliable sources say...
Here are archive links to the two BLP/N discussions: 2016, 2022, in case any of you are (like me) only really noticing this now.

This is a real conundrum — on the one hand, you don't want Wikipedia saying "He allegedly died and is buried in Amsterdam," because that might lead the authorities to stop looking for him, but on the other, leaving it out altogether might cause higher stress levels for mothers of young boys in the area due to their thinking he might still be out there.

Far be it from me to suggest a compromise solution, but it seems like it might be sufficient just to have a WP:RS confirmation that the funeral took place — I'm guessing/assuming it's difficult or even impossible to confirm that he's actually dead, due to lack of pre-disappearance biological material for use in a DNA comparison. (Plus the hassle of exhuming the body, etc.) But if they had a reliable source on the funeral, maybe the article could say something like, "A funeral service, ostensibly for Eley, was conducted in Amsterdam in April of 2022, though there has been no official confirmation of Eley's death." Some people would have to look up what "ostensibly" means, but it would be a good thing to have more people know what that word means anyway.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by MaxBrowne2 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:43 pm

"Ostensibly", like "purportedly", is a scare word which should be avoided in wikipedia articles.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:05 pm

MaxBrowne2 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:43 pm
"Ostensibly", like "purportedly", is a scare word which should be avoided in wikipedia articles.
I assume you're referring to MOS:ALLEGED (T-H-L)...? That doesn't (currently) mention "ostensibly" — maybe it should — but I do take your point. I'd say it's just a detail. I suppose the uncertainty factor in this case could be conveyed with a sentence or two, which might be better if you/they wanted to emphasize the uncertainty. Whether that would be good or bad, though... I guess that's just part of what makes conundrums so much fun!

Either way, they'll still need an RS on the funeral having taken place. That's a given.

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by Carcharoth » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:59 pm

For those interested, the chess forum thread is still rumbling on. Someone there has written to Panorama (British TV programme) (T-H-L) to try and get an investigation started. That was a development I hadn't foreseen! Might not go anywhere, but if it does I have no idea what the end result might be (Panorama is not what it used to be, but still has a great deal of name recognition and presumably could dig into this somewhat).

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Re: Brian Eley, or The return of the living dead.

Unread post by AndyTheGrump » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:23 am

Fiona Pitt-Kethley (T-H-L) has written a long piece on Eley. Well worth reading. link

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