Proxy blocking goes to the next level

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Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:59 pm

There's a discussion on WP:AN about more aggressive proxy blocking. (Thanks to Bezdomi for the tip.)
lengthy announcement
As some folks may have noticed, there has been a major uptick in short open proxy blocks by ST47ProxyBot lately. Now that the block infrastructure is in place, it's time for some explanation. We have had a lot of issues lately with a type of proxy called a "peer-to-peer" or "residential" proxy. In short, unlike normal VPNs (where your internet traffic goes into a datacenter somewhere and is forwarded from there to its destination), peer-to-peer proxies route traffic through normal peoples' internet connections. Some of these are known to the person doing the proxying (for example, some services route traffic through all of their users) while others might not be (compromised devices or shady smartphone apps can turn you into an exit point). Since these exit points are motly on residential networks, they tend to have rather dynamic IPs, so we can't always perform long blocks on them. A small group of editors has recently been given access to a data feed from Spur ([spur.us]) that identifies IPs belonging to some peer-to-peer proxy services, and this data feed is being used to hardblock these proxies both on enwiki and globally. What you need to know:

These proxies have been a huge issue. I don't want to go into too much detail here per WP:BEANS (though I'm happy to email trusted editors with additional details), but we have had a lot of issues with very nasty folks using these proxies. I have personally dealt with some of them editing as IPs, and I believe the checkuser team can confirm that they have seen abusive accounts using these services. Until now, we've always been reacting - blocking an IP after the fact. Now, we are able to block these IPs before they are abused.

It's hard to identify these proxies. A lot of existing proxy detection tools won't be able to identify these endpoints as belonging to peer-to-peer proxy services. If you think that one of these blocks was made by mistake, contact a CheckUser or make a request at WP:WPOP (checkusers and several WPOP members have access to a service that can identify them), but we are very confident in our data source here.

We trust the data. Some proxy-detection services are well-known at WP:WPOP for being questionably reliable. In this case, we have worked directly with Spur to develop a detection method and have spot-checked results ourselves.

There will be teething issues. This has been a quick turnaround effort to deal with a major uptick in abuse. We've done a lot of monitoring and sanity checks, but nothing is perfect the first go-round. We will be actively keeping an eye on everything and fixing issues as they come up.

There will be a lot of churn in these blocks. The nature of residential proxies means that devices will move around and dynamic IPs will be dynamic IPs. This means that the blocks will necessarily be short (though the bot can do escalating block durations when it sees proxies pop up on the same IP multiple times) and that something that was marked as a proxy one day might not be a proxy a couple days later.

There will be some collateral damage. It's unfortunate, but it's true. Some people may not be aware they have one of these proxies running on their internet connection. Some Internet Service Providers use Carrier-grade_NAT (basically, multiple customers behind one IP), so if one customer on a given IP is running a peer-to-peer proxy, a block will affect everyone on that IP. This is nothing new - that's how blocks normally work - but given the scale of the blocks here, there will be an uptick in legitimate editors impacted by this. Editors who are trying to make accounts but are affected by this should be directed to WP:ACC, and existing editors who are affected should request WP:IPBE from the checkuser team (and probably m:GIPBE from the steward team). This will be the source of most "false positives".

Finally, I'd like to give out a lot of kudos. In no particular order: thanks to Blablubbs and MarioGom for getting this effort moving and getting us the data feed, ST47 for quickly integrating the data feed into their proxy-blocking bot, Tks4Fish for getting these blocks applied at the global level, and L235 and TheresNoTime for interfacing with the CheckUser team as we figure this out. I would also like to extend a heartfelt thank-you to the folks at Spur - we've worked closely with them throughout this process and they have provided amazing support. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
The short version: a bot will be blocking more IPs more frequently. It now gets a feed of compromised home routers/PCs from an outside service. These were harder to detect and track in the past, but often blocked by individual admins who hoovered up lists from various, um, hobbyist forums. This will mean they are blocked more quickly and consistently. That's bad news for some people.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by TNT » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:16 am

Heh, only just realised what your profile picture was.

Also yes, bad proxies are bad, etc etc.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:49 pm

Does this increase or decrease the chances of IPs being blocked wrongly? I know, for example, that IPs in several libraries here are blocked because the way that their systems are set up makes them look to Wikipedia admins like open proxies, even though they can only be accessed from within library buildings. (Others are blocked because they were used for vandalism, which is not unreasonable.)
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:49 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:49 pm
Does this increase or decrease the chances of IPs being blocked wrongly? I know, for example, that IPs in several libraries here are blocked because the way that their systems are set up makes them look to Wikipedia admins like open proxies, even though they can only be accessed from within library buildings. (Others are blocked because they were used for vandalism, which is not unreasonable.)
Hard to say. Libraries often use proxy servers in the sense that there may be several computers available for patrons to access the internet but they all use one external IP. It depends on how the external feed from spur.us classifies them. I don't think Wikipedia wants to have the bot block libraries and government offices so there is probably some kind of whitelist.

This will probably hit sockmasters who use commercial VPNs (assuming Wikipedia is getting the VPN data from Spur).

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:35 pm

ST47ProxyBot is busy. Very very busy.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:09 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:35 pm
ST47ProxyBot is busy. Very very busy.
Togo, Morocco, Côte d'Ivoire, Nigeria, Venezuela... curious... thanks for following up on this, I don't really understand what's happening. Is the idea that these are companies that are sharing their users' routers to run other traffic through their IP/router? (This is probably much more complicated than what I think I've understood.)
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:32 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:35 pm
ST47ProxyBot is busy. Very very busy.
I see that the blocks are mostly for 14 days but some are 60 days or a year. Is there any logic behind that?
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:59 pm

I was over at a friend's house who has a brand new 5G TMobile home wireless setup.

There's a range block for it that's extremely wide and years old and has years to expire.

That's a whole swath of tech households who will never edit wikipedia.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by tarantino » Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:15 pm

Bezdomni wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:09 pm
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:35 pm
ST47ProxyBot is busy. Very very busy.
Togo, Morocco, Côte d'Ivoire, Nigeria, Venezuela... curious... thanks for following up on this, I don't really understand what's happening. Is the idea that these are companies that are sharing their users' routers to run other traffic through their IP/router? (This is probably much more complicated than what I think I've understood.)
Not companies, but people from around the world. There are peer to peer proxy networks you can join if you install the software, then you can edit from the IPs of others in the network.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:38 pm

OK, I did misunderstand then. I thought it was companies like Togo Telecom / Smile Nigeria selling unused parts of IP stacks to VPN providers unbeknownst to their customers. (I gather for example my connection is only a quarter of the range of port addresses normally associated with an IPv4, but I didn't see my service provider in the list of blockees, it seemed to be mostly African & Asian providers the bot was going after.)
Last edited by Bezdomni on Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:45 pm

Sounds more like a modern-day Napster to facilitate anonymous editing.

Most of these are preemptive blocks of IP addresses that have never even made a single edit.

I had to randomly search through several of them before I found one that had previous edits.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:17 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:45 pm
Sounds more like a modern-day Napster to facilitate anonymous editing.

Most of these are preemptive blocks of IP addresses that have never even made a single edit.

I had to randomly search through several of them before I found one that had previous edits.
Yes, these are preemptive blocks. They are getting blocked as spur.us identifies them. It used to be that using a proxy was fine so long as you weren't being "disruptive". When proxies were discovered (when checkusers were investigating sockpuppets, for example), they were blocked. Same with TOR exit nodes. Then some admins started blocking proxies preemptively in a haphazard way, using lists from various proxy sites. Then as more people started using VPNs, they started blocking those, too.
WP:PROXY wrote:Open or anonymizing proxies, including Tor, may be blocked from editing for any period at any time. While this may affect legitimate users, they are not the intended targets and may freely use proxies until those are blocked. No restrictions are placed on reading Wikipedia through an open or anonymous proxy.

Proxies are left open due to deliberate or inadvertent configuration or because crackers have changed the configuration. Non-static IP addresses or hosts that are otherwise not permanent proxies should typically be blocked for a shorter period of time, as it is likely the IP address will eventually be transferred or dynamically reassigned, or the open proxy closed. Once closed, the IP address should be unblocked.
So the policy is that you can use open proxies or VPNs, but Wikipedia is going to aggressively and preemptively block them, so good luck with that. Also, your account will definitely be blocked if you are found to be using a proxy because even though it is allowed, it is a sure sign that you are up to no good.

"Crackers"? Crackers are going around changing people's server configs? Wow.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:40 am

First time I've noticed or looked at the Wikipedia:Open proxies (T-H-L) policy.
This page in a nutshell wrote:Because of the potential for abuse and technical limitations on the MediaWiki software, open proxies may be blocked from editing for any period at any time.
There's even a project for this: Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies (T-H-L)

Not something I have much expertise with, and learning more about this stuff isn't even on my to-do list, which is already too long.

So, bottom line, are these guys any more effective in stopping bad edits than my phone provider is in stopping "Scam Likely" calls and texts from disrupting my day?
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Wampyre1990 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:43 am

No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:40 am

are these guys any more effective in stopping bad edits than my phone provider is in stopping "Scam Likely" calls and texts from disrupting my day?
Signpost recently did an interview of WikiProject on open proxy members. That was the first time I heard of them. Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2021-06-27/WikiProject report (T-H-L)

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:45 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:17 pm
So the policy is that you can use open proxies or VPNs, but Wikipedia is going to aggressively and preemptively block them, so good luck with that. Also, your account will definitely be blocked if you are found to be using a proxy because even though it is allowed, it is a sure sign that you are up to no good.
There is also the problem that two editors may happen to use the same IP and if one gets blocked, the other will be blocked as a sock. This no doubt also happens with people editing from the same Internet café.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:18 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:40 am
So, bottom line, are these guys any more effective in stopping bad edits than my phone provider is in stopping "Scam Likely" calls and texts from disrupting my day?
Your question contains the insinuation that people who are using proxies or VPNs make "bad edits". I'm sure some of them do, but that is a reason to block the user, not the proxy or VPN. Wikipedia isn't a blog where some bot is leaving comment spam about buying Bitcoin.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:36 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:18 pm
No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:40 am
So, bottom line, are these guys any more effective in stopping bad edits than my phone provider is in stopping "Scam Likely" calls and texts from disrupting my day?
Your question contains the insinuation that people who are using proxies or VPNs make "bad edits". I'm sure some of them do, but that is a reason to block the user, not the proxy or VPN. Wikipedia isn't a blog where some bot is leaving comment spam about buying Bitcoin.
Why can't they just tag them as "proxy edits", and if they did, what percentage of total edits would be tagged as proxy edits? More or less than the number of Visual Editor edits?
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by LargelyRecyclable » Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:59 pm

Wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can anonymously edit. Unless you want to anonymously edit it.

WMF has always been behind the curve technologically speaking, but I don't understand how they plan on making this work when some statistics show that over half of the internet users in the US are already using VPNs.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Lyallpuri » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:05 pm

Back when I edited, some of the sources I used were geo-blocked in the US, which meant I had to use a VPN to access them; naturally, though, I wasn't able to edit at the same time, which made getting such sources onto WP a painfully long process. I remember trying to source an addition back in December at Maya Ali (T-H-L) and abandoning it for this very reason.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:47 pm

The bot just blocked someone two days after a bad edit (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit) but still left it up to me to notice and revert the edit.

I'm seeing barn doors being closed after the horses left the stable, but no efforts to clean up after the horses
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:05 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:47 pm
The bot just blocked someone two days after a bad edit (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit) but still left it up to me to notice and revert the edit.

I'm seeing barn doors being closed after the horses left the stable, but no efforts to clean up after the horses
Classic wikipediots.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:43 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:47 pm
I'm seeing barn doors being closed after the horses left the stable, but no efforts to clean up after the horses
Somehow it feels more like a chicken coop than a stable... there's probably some co-splatter.

ProcseeBot (stats) v. ST47ProxyBot (stats)

Much of the planet should be blocked by next week. :mellow:
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:24 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:47 pm
The bot just blocked someone two days after a bad edit (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit) but still left it up to me to notice and revert the edit.

I'm seeing barn doors being closed after the horses left the stable, but no efforts to clean up after the horses
You have to remember that the block is unrelated to any editing, good or bad. These IPs are being preemptively blocked when an outside service tells Wikipedia that they think the IP is a proxy. The vast majority of these IPs will never have been used to edit Wikipedia.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:36 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:24 pm
No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:47 pm
The bot just blocked someone two days after a bad edit (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit) but still left it up to me to notice and revert the edit.

I'm seeing barn doors being closed after the horses left the stable, but no efforts to clean up after the horses
You have to remember that the block is unrelated to any editing, good or bad. These IPs are being preemptively blocked when an outside service tells Wikipedia that they think the IP is a proxy. The vast majority of these IPs will never have been used to edit Wikipedia.
Yes yes yes but as Vigilant implies
Vigilant wrote: Classic wikipediots.
this is primitive vandalism prevention. A smarter bot, e.g. ClueBot, would check the IP's recent edit history, if any, and revert it if it was obvious vandalism or flag it for human review if not obvious. But programmers like Jacobi don't grow on trees, and expect to be paid well, while the WMF wants to hoard all their donations and make volunteers do all the heavy lifting.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by LargelyRecyclable » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:39 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:36 pm
Yes yes yes but as Vigilant implies this is primitive vandalism prevention. A smarter bot, e.g. ClueBot, would check the IP's recent edit history, if any, and revert it if it was obvious vandalism or flag it for human review if not obvious. But programmers like Jacobi don't grow on trees, and expect to be paid well, while the WMF wants to hoard all their donations and make volunteers do all the heavy lifting.
I don't keep up anymore, and I sort of even hate to even ask, but what's the WMF spending all that loot on if it's not willing to pay for the people it needs to actually maintain the technology infrastructure?

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:41 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:36 pm
Yes yes yes but as Vigilant implies
Vigilant wrote: Classic wikipediots.
this is primitive vandalism prevention. A smarter bot, e.g. ClueBot, would check the IP's recent edit history, if any, and revert it if it was obvious vandalism or flag it for human review if not obvious. But programmers like Jacobi don't grow on trees, and expect to be paid well, while the WMF wants to hoard all their donations and make volunteers do all the heavy lifting.
You don't seem to be getting it. It's not "primitive vandalism prevention". It's blocking IPs with absolutely no regard for whether they were used or might be used to edit Wikipedia. If those IPs happened to have been used to edit Wikipedia, there's no reason to assume that the edits would be any better or worse than any other. Yes, using a proxy may be associated with sockpuppetry, but that's not something you are going to see by looking at the IP edits. You might as well pick one half of the internet, block all of the IPs, and say you'll reduce IP editor vandalism by 50%.

Another thing you don't seem to be getting is that the WMF is not likely to spend any money on something if volunteers are doing it for free. There is a disincentive for them to stop IP vandalism because they would lose a whole bunch of active editors who do nothing but "vandalism patrol". There are simple and obvious ways to reduce the amount of "vandalism" but those would necessarily reduce the number of edits. And remember that every "bad" edit is followed by a "good" edit. Remove that churn and those "vandalism patrollers" and Wikipedia looks a lot less healthy.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:25 pm

LargelyRecyclable wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:39 pm
I don't keep up anymore, and I sort of even hate to even ask, but what's the WMF spending all that loot on if it's not willing to pay for the people it needs to actually maintain the technology infrastructure?
It pays for people who don't do useful things, and people who can't do useful things (such as the ones responsible for the visual editor fiasco).
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:44 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:41 pm
You don't seem to be getting it. It's not "primitive vandalism prevention". It's blocking IPs with absolutely no regard for whether they were used or might be used to edit Wikipedia. If those IPs happened to have been used to edit Wikipedia, there's no reason to assume that the edits would be any better or worse than any other. Yes, using a proxy may be associated with sockpuppetry, but that's not something you are going to see by looking at the IP edits. You might as well pick one half of the internet, block all of the IPs, and say you'll reduce IP editor vandalism by 50%.
OK that's your opinion. But the Open proxies policy says "Because of the potential for abuse". Abuse can be vandalism, or sockpuppetry, or other things. So, it's the consensus opinion of Wikipedia editors that these IP addresses indeed might be used to edit Wikipedia. Blocking policy says "User accounts and IP addresses may be blocked from editing to protect Wikipedia from disruption. There is no other reason for blocking. So, presumably it's the consensus opinion of Wikipedia that open proxies are indeed more likely than non-open-proxy edits to abuse or disrupt Wikipedia. I understand your opinion is that they are not more likely to abuse or disrupt. I don't know the definitive answer. A big-data study could examine past edits and compare the open-proxy edits with the non-open-proxy edits to tell us whether one has committed more abuse and disruption than the other.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:41 pm
Another thing you don't seem to be getting is that the WMF is not likely to spend any money on something if volunteers are doing it for free. There is a disincentive for them to stop IP vandalism because they would lose a whole bunch of active editors who do nothing but "vandalism patrol". There are simple and obvious ways to reduce the amount of "vandalism" but those would necessarily reduce the number of edits. And remember that every "bad" edit is followed by a "good" edit. Remove that churn and those "vandalism patrollers" and Wikipedia looks a lot less healthy.
Imagine you own a semi-pro baseball team. Your team has five volunteer players. You're unable to recruit volunteers for four positions on your team (disregard the need for a bench filled with substitutes to keep the analogy simple). Rather than pay four players to fill the open positions, you just play the five you have, and as a result your undermanned team loses virtually every game it plays against your fully-staffed nine-players opponents.

Volunteers are not getting all the work done. They're only getting some of the work done. As a result Wikipedia is losing the battle for optimal quality. So far they've gotten away with it because they don't have any competitors fielding larger teams.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Ryuichi » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:53 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:25 pm
LargelyRecyclable wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:39 pm
I don't keep up anymore, and I sort of even hate to even ask, but what's the WMF spending all that loot on if it's not willing to pay for the people it needs to actually maintain the technology infrastructure?
It pays for people who don't do useful things, and people who can't do useful things (such as the ones responsible for the visual editor fiasco).
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:13 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Imagine you own a semi-pro baseball team. Your team has five volunteer players. You're unable to recruit volunteers for four positions on your team (disregard the need for a bench filled with substitutes to keep the analogy simple). Rather than pay four players to fill the open positions, you just play the five you have, and as a result your undermanned team loses virtually every game it plays against your fully-staffed nine-players opponents.

Volunteers are not getting all the work done. They're only getting some of the work done. As a result Wikipedia is losing the battle for optimal quality. So far they've gotten away with it because they don't have any competitors fielding larger teams.
The WMF does not care about you. Someone will come along and replace you. You've been on Wikipedia for 10 years. How is it possible that you think the WMF cares about "optimal quality"? The community might care, but the WMF doesn't care. You know those helpful tools like history search? How many were made by the WMF? Most were made by volunteers and until fairly recently, the WMF didn't even host a lot of them. The WMF is just fine with you spending your precious volunteer time reverting an edit made by some schoolkid who didn't even have to make an account to tell everyone that he is the President of Uruguay. The WMF does not care about you.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:38 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:44 pm
But the Open proxies policy says "Because of the potential for abuse". Abuse can be vandalism, or sockpuppetry, or other things. So, it's the consensus opinion of Wikipedia editors that these IP addresses indeed might be used to edit Wikipedia.
Surely you know how Wikipedia policy is created. It's not a consensus of a substantial proportion of editors. I would be surprised if a majority of editors, or even of editors with at least 100 edits, even know that this policy exists.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:34 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:38 pm
No Ledge wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:44 pm
But the Open proxies policy says "Because of the potential for abuse". Abuse can be vandalism, or sockpuppetry, or other things. So, it's the consensus opinion of Wikipedia editors that these IP addresses indeed might be used to edit Wikipedia.
Surely you know how Wikipedia policy is created. It's not a consensus of a substantial proportion of editors. I would be surprised if a majority of editors, or even of editors with at least 100 edits, even know that this policy exists.
No Ledge has drunk too much Jimbo juice. He's one of those people who spends his time reverting "bad" edits like this Ghanaian IP changing the prominence of the local versus English naming in an article. Would this change have been reverted if it was made by an named account? It doesn't matter because it was made by an IP which is now blocked because it is a "possible proxy" according to spur.us. So obviously a bad person up to no good, not a reader trying to improve an article.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:16 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:13 pm
The WMF does not care about you. The WMF does not care about you.
Doh. When did I ever say I thought the WMF cared about me? Of course they don't care about me. Well, maybe they care about me a teeny, tiny bit. I'm not sure. Someone funded my trip to Boston in 2019, but I'm not sure it was even the WMF. My scholarship was paid via PayPal and I can't really say for sure who ultimately funded the account that paid me. It was all done through some third-party contractor. The money might have come from some donor like Craig Newmark (someone who actually does care at least a bit) for all I know.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:13 pm
Someone will come along and replace you.
No one single individual is likely to just show up and do everything I do. Various editors do come along very occasionally and take over some of the stuff I do. That's good because it frees me up to expand my scope to more new projects. It's most disheartening to spend a month tackling some major backlog pileup that nobody tends to, pat myself on the back when the job is done, then move on to other things for a few months, then return to check and see that the backlog is baaaaackkk! NOBODY, or virtually nobody, else does that work.

What's more likely is that things will just revert back to the lower level at which they were maintained before I came along.

Now there are many editing tasks there will always be editors to replace those who leave, There will always be more vandals coming along to replace the vandals that leave. There will always be new drama-board discussions to replace the ones that are closed.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:13 pm
You've been on Wikipedia for 10 years. How is it possible that you think the WMF cares about "optimal quality"? The community might care, but the WMF doesn't care. You know those helpful tools like history search? How many were made by the WMF? Most were made by volunteers and until fairly recently, the WMF didn't even host a lot of them. The WMF is just fine with you spending your precious volunteer time reverting an edit made by some schoolkid who didn't even have to make an account to tell everyone that he is the President of Uruguay.
The WMF should care about "optimal quality", but they don't. I never said they did.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:42 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:34 pm
No Ledge has drunk too much Jimbo juice. He's one of those people who spends his time reverting "bad" edits like this Ghanaian IP changing the prominence of the local versus English naming in an article. Would this change have been reverted if it was made by an named account? It doesn't matter because it was made by an IP which is now blocked because it is a "possible proxy" according to spur.us. So obviously a bad person up to no good, not a reader trying to improve an article.
If I was drinking the juice I'd be attending the virtual Wikimania rather than almost ignoring it (so far all I've done is watch the opening session up until J. Wade spoke, because I was curious to see and hear her) and continuing with my regular routine.

My revert had nothing to do with the IP being a "possible proxy", that was just a coincidental finding. My revert was because this version was red-flagging an Audio file "Asante.ogg" not found error. If I wasn't on patrol for that it may have stood for days or weeks before someone else did something about it. It's a patrol I created, and one that may be abandoned, or done at a lower level of support, if or when I leave.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:37 am

No Ledge wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:16 am
Doh. When did I ever say I thought the WMF cared about me? Of course they don't care about me.
...
The WMF should care about "optimal quality", but they don't. I never said they did.
There's more hope for you than I thought. Why do you keep at it if you know it's futile?

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:14 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:37 am
No Ledge wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:16 am
Doh. When did I ever say I thought the WMF cared about me? Of course they don't care about me.
...
The WMF should care about "optimal quality", but they don't. I never said they did.
There's more hope for you than I thought. Why do you keep at it if you know it's futile?
Things can change. Sometimes very fast. Just look at how fast they changed in Afghanistan. You never know, maybe the next regime at WMF will take things in a different direction. Maybe the next leader will care. Not much is going to change before that, while we still have this interim situation where nobody seems to be in charge.

Why does anyone stick around on this site, keeping at criticizing the WMF when they know criticizing WMF is futile?
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:43 am

No Ledge wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:14 am
Why does anyone stick around on this site, keeping at criticizing the WMF when they know criticizing WMF is futile?
Speaking only for myself, I still have a few employees at the WMF that I need to see leave.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Zoloft » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:57 am

Regimes can collapse almost instantly if someone finds out they are corrupt, and someone else takes action. We're the most likely place for a whistleblower to blow their whistle.

It's a long shot, but not impossible.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:08 am

No Ledge wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:16 am
No one single individual is likely to just show up and do everything I do. Various editors do come along very occasionally and take over some of the stuff I do. That's good because it frees me up to expand my scope to more new projects. It's most disheartening to spend a month tackling some major backlog pileup that nobody tends to, pat myself on the back when the job is done, then move on to other things for a few months, then return to check and see that the backlog is baaaaackkk! NOBODY, or virtually nobody, else does that work.
No doubt, if you left, some things would get worse. Who in the WMF really understands that? Even if there is such a person, do the senior management of the WMF care?
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:37 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:14 am
Why does anyone stick around on this site, keeping at criticizing the WMF when they know criticizing WMF is futile?
That's a reasonable question. To be honest, I'm not much of a WMF critic. I tend to focus on petty squabbles and individual editors. Occasionally I will try to bring some exposure to something that happens (like this proxy blocking) but I'm not spending a lot of time analyzing annual reports and grant applications. I applaud people like Andreas Kolbe and Greg Kohs who continue to do that kind of stuff, but I do wonder if anything can shake the way the media portrays Wikipedia.

I'm interested in harm reduction. I want to make Wikipedia less bad. There are a few positive changes that I think I have helped to bring about.

If I'm here, it's often because I'm procrastinating about something else I should be doing. And, if it needs to be said, Wikipediocracy definitely has a social aspect. I expect that Wikipedia is similar for you.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:11 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:59 pm
I was over at a friend's house who has a brand new 5G TMobile home wireless setup.

There's a range block for it that's extremely wide and years old and has years to expire.

That's a whole swath of tech households who will never edit wikipedia.
That's probably the Dog and Rapper Vandal block (still!). T Mobile IPs are pretty much blocked for the whole USA.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:09 pm

The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:11 pm
Vigilant wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:59 pm
I was over at a friend's house who has a brand new 5G TMobile home wireless setup.

There's a range block for it that's extremely wide and years old and has years to expire.

That's a whole swath of tech households who will never edit wikipedia.
That's probably the Dog and Rapper Vandal block (still!). T Mobile IPs are pretty much blocked for the whole USA.
Just to be clear, this 'Get high-speed internet for only $50/mo.' is the service I'm referring to.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:59 pm

GD says "I cannot share your laughter..."

Proxies and evil proxies

Title-case is dead, just like jazz and disco.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by tarantino » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:48 am

"It’s only a matter of time before someone gets killed. In fact, it has probably already happened."

She's unlucky at thinking.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:10 pm

tarantino wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:48 am
"It’s only a matter of time before someone gets killed. In fact, it has probably already happened."

She's unlucky at thinking.
I'm going to leave this to the senior wixy-crikiteers, but I did see that your post generated addenda.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:43 pm

Bezdomni wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:43 pm
No Ledge wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:47 pm
I'm seeing barn doors being closed after the horses left the stable, but no efforts to clean up after the horses
Somehow it feels more like a chicken coop than a stable... there's probably some co-splatter.

ProcseeBot (stats) v. ST47ProxyBot (stats)

Much of the planet should be blocked by next week. :mellow:
1,000,000 blocked. ImageImageImage Image

The bot has !quite yet doubled its previous lifetime achievement in this single month.

Does anybody know the name of Wikidata's top blockerbot? Commons's?
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:27 pm

Does anyone know how many IP addresses actually exist? Particularly for IP6, this may be a negligible fraction, hardly worth worrying about, unless one of the IPs is used by a very large number of people. I believe that there are countries where everyone or a large proportion of people all have the same IP address.
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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Zoloft » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:33 am

Poetlister wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:27 pm
Does anyone know how many IP addresses actually exist?
From ripe.net:
     
Both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses come from finite pools of numbers. For IPv4, this pool is 32-bits (232) in size and contains 4,294,967,296 IPv4 addresses. The IPv6 address space is 128-bits (2128) in size, containing 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 IPv6 addresses.

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:39 pm

A few caveats. There are blocks of IP address space that are reserved for special purposes, so that cuts down the total a little. IP addresses are assigned in blocks, so someone "owns" a large number of IPs but might only need and use a smaller number of iPs within that block. That is one of the reasons we're running out of IP4 addresses.

The other thing to remember is that we're talking about blocks (in the Wikipedia sense of block) not IP addresses. The bot seems to be handing out mostly short blocks (2 -14 days). Some of those IP addresses have been blocked multiple times in the last month. Still, a million blocks is impressive!

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Re: Proxy blocking goes to the next level

Unread post by Bezdomni » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:10 pm

Fans of young adult fiction will be pleased to learn that it is Thx4Fish (§) who is in charge of blocking the 500,000 IPs globally.

Said Thx is a steward who has been running a bot through their account by granting themselves the "flooder" permission periodically. (This prevents the global blocks from showing up in "recent changes").
Jimmy Wales (26 Aug 2021) wrote:[R]ebuilding trust in the internet depends on transparency. On Wikipedia, I can see every edit to an article; all contributions and discussions about content are part of the public record for anyone to read. This commitment to transparency is a core part of the reason why Wikipedia remains one of the most trusted sites on the internet.
source
The blocks are not being counted as such, though they are being logged... (compare the last 5000 global blocks (which took 44 minutes) with their cumulative totals for August 2021.

When they seemed to be on break a couple days ago, I asked Tks4Fish if s/he could tell me what percentage of these blocks were of Asian, African, & South American IPs, and which countries were most frequently having their IPs blocked. I wondered if there was an overall vision of what was being done...

As of this writing, I have received no reply.

I guess it's more of a bother to articulate what is being done how (and why) than to "just do it" ✅ (to hundreds of thousands).
TNT wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:16 am
... bad proxies are bad, etc etc.
I guess this is all we shall learn except perHaps through official WMF channels? Has someone contacted Stephen Harrison to write a "future perfect" article? I haven't seen a press release in the Signpost newsroom yet...

ps: thanks for the data on the dwindling number of IPv4 addresses. I wonder if the WMF is in favor of this latest "Block the moon now!" action, or if they're steering clear of involvement for Section 230 (or other) reasons. :unsure:
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