Slate Star Codex

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Midsize Jake
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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:54 pm

The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:29 pm
A simple list would suffice, with a single sentence at the end "Why do they trust this man?"
Okay... I like this idea. Maybe we can try to keep it fairly simple — just start a new thread called "Dave Gerard: Two-Sentence Horror Stories" or something along those lines (suggestions welcome), and once we reach a certain, uh, volume, compile the stories into a list and put 'em up.

We'll need some basic rules, though — something like:
  • Two sentences ideal, four sentences max;
  • If referring to a WP/WMF account, the account name must be included;
  • Try to avoid obvious hyperbole and overcooked accusations in general.
IOW, just present the facts, though that can include a description of the consequences/fallout of any given incident. Also, members can post as many items for the list as they want, but every item should be considered subject to corrections and/or re-wording suggestion(s) by other members.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Zoloft » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:18 pm

The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:29 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 am
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:26 am
David Gerard needs a blog post
Should we try to cover the entire 20 years of abuses, or would it be more practical to determine some sort of arbitrary cutoff date? :unsure:

Another possible approach could be to have everyone submit their favorite Dave Gerard abusiveness anecdote, and put them into some sort of compendium. Just about everybody has one — including me.
A simple list would suffice, with a single sentence at the end "Why do they trust this man?"
I like where this is going.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by TracingWoodgrains » Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:33 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 am
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:26 am
David Gerard needs a blog post
Should we try to cover the entire 20 years of abuses, or would it be more practical to determine some sort of arbitrary cutoff date? :unsure:

Another possible approach could be to have everyone submit their favorite Dave Gerard abusiveness anecdote, and put them into some sort of compendium. Just about everybody has one — including me.
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread: I am an independent writer exploring the potential to write an article focused on Gerard's Wikipedia-related history. I've reviewed the information here and the on-wiki behavior and controversies I can find, but if anyone has information I may have missed or other thoughts to share, I would welcome direct messages or replies. In particular, if anyone with an informed perspective is willing to chat at length on the record, I'd appreciate it. I'm an outsider to the whole Wikipedia ecosystem and trying to parse through thousands of pages of history and edits looking for key moments gets rather dense--it's quite easy for me to miss relevant info.

Thanks, all!

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by DanMurphy » Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:47 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:33 am
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 am
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:26 am
David Gerard needs a blog post
Should we try to cover the entire 20 years of abuses, or would it be more practical to determine some sort of arbitrary cutoff date? :unsure:

Another possible approach could be to have everyone submit their favorite Dave Gerard abusiveness anecdote, and put them into some sort of compendium. Just about everybody has one — including me.
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread: I am an independent writer exploring the potential to write an article focused on Gerard's Wikipedia-related history. I've reviewed the information here and the on-wiki behavior and controversies I can find, but if anyone has information I may have missed or other thoughts to share, I would welcome direct messages or replies. In particular, if anyone with an informed perspective is willing to chat at length on the record, I'd appreciate it. I'm an outsider to the whole Wikipedia ecosystem and trying to parse through thousands of pages of history and edits looking for key moments gets rather dense--it's quite easy for me to miss relevant info.

Thanks, all!
What outlet are you writing the article for? What is your name? Where can we find samples of your work?

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by rnu » Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:51 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:33 am
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 am
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:26 am
David Gerard needs a blog post
Should we try to cover the entire 20 years of abuses, or would it be more practical to determine some sort of arbitrary cutoff date? :unsure:

Another possible approach could be to have everyone submit their favorite Dave Gerard abusiveness anecdote, and put them into some sort of compendium. Just about everybody has one — including me.
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread: I am an independent writer exploring the potential to write an article focused on Gerard's Wikipedia-related history. I've reviewed the information here and the on-wiki behavior and controversies I can find, but if anyone has information I may have missed or other thoughts to share, I would welcome direct messages or replies. In particular, if anyone with an informed perspective is willing to chat at length on the record, I'd appreciate it. I'm an outsider to the whole Wikipedia ecosystem and trying to parse through thousands of pages of history and edits looking for key moments gets rather dense--it's quite easy for me to miss relevant info.

Thanks, all!
:welcome:
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:04 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:33 am
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 am
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:26 am
David Gerard needs a blog post
Should we try to cover the entire 20 years of abuses, or would it be more practical to determine some sort of arbitrary cutoff date? :unsure:

Another possible approach could be to have everyone submit their favorite Dave Gerard abusiveness anecdote, and put them into some sort of compendium. Just about everybody has one — including me.
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread: I am an independent writer exploring the potential to write an article focused on Gerard's Wikipedia-related history. I've reviewed the information here and the on-wiki behavior and controversies I can find, but if anyone has information I may have missed or other thoughts to share, I would welcome direct messages or replies. In particular, if anyone with an informed perspective is willing to chat at length on the record, I'd appreciate it. I'm an outsider to the whole Wikipedia ecosystem and trying to parse through thousands of pages of history and edits looking for key moments gets rather dense--it's quite easy for me to miss relevant info.

Thanks, all!
Would you mind sharing your website (which you shared with myself and a few others privately) here on the thread?

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by TracingWoodgrains » Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:40 pm

The Garbage Scow wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:04 pm
Would you mind sharing your website (which you shared with myself and a few others privately) here on the thread?
DanMurphy wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:47 pm
What outlet are you writing the article for? What is your name? Where can we find samples of your work?
Of course! I write primarily under this handle at my own website and Twitter and use the same handle everywhere. Some of my most relevant articles are a deep dive into the FAA's 2014 hiring scandal, the story of /r/antiwork's fall, and unwinding the backstory of a furry beach fight. Previously, I worked for a podcast diving into obscure subculture drama. I specialize in longform deep dives into the layers and layers of backstory of obscure conflicts online or buried in lawsuits that bubbles up into something much more significant without many people noticing.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:35 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:40 pm
Of course! I write primarily under this handle at my own website and Twitter and use the same handle everywhere. Some of my most relevant articles are a deep dive into the FAA's 2014 hiring scandal, the story of /r/antiwork's fall, and unwinding the backstory of a furry beach fight. Previously, I worked for a podcast diving into obscure subculture drama. I specialize in longform deep dives into the layers and layers of backstory of obscure conflicts online or buried in lawsuits that bubbles up into something much more significant without many people noticing.
Looks fairly legitimate to me... Anyway, :welcome:

I guess I was a bit disappointed when my earlier call for "two-sentence horror stories" about Dave basically yielded bupkis, but sometimes that happens. (Okay, usually that happens.) I probably shouldn't have placed all those rules and conditions on it, but it's just as likely that people have become happy with the status quo in which Dave spends most of his time bashing the crypto industry — and despite occasional flareups, leaving Wikiland alone for the most part. Most of the really bad stuff he did dates back to the 2004-2014 period, which is a long time in internet years.

The main thing to understand about Dave is that he was never all that interested in improving Wikipedia, or Usenet before it — he was much more interested in scrapping with perceived "enemies" of the "project," especially organized ones, and using that as a way into the leadership clique. He wanted to be the "Lord Protector" and show that just one guy with enough cleverness and "moxie" could take on Evil Corp. by himself and win. He didn't even have to be successful with this approach, since he got away with his high propensity for screwups by the usual means we associate with combative/narcissistic personalities — deflection, blame-shifting, minimizing negative effects, pretending it never happened at all, insisting he was "right all along" despite copious evidence to the contrary, or just-plain lying about it.

And he does have a sense of humor, at least — not a very good one, but better than a typical Wikipedian. That, combined with the fact that he doesn't care how he's perceived by outsiders, makes him a trickier target for critics.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Sun Jun 23, 2024 10:07 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:35 pm
That, combined with the fact that he doesn't care how he's perceived by outsiders, makes him a trickier target for critics.
Members of this and the previous critics forum used to delight in shitposting a picture of him wearing black lipstick and a mesh shirt. It rather clouded a lot of the critique making it hard to identify exactly what the legitimate problems were with some of his rhetoric and actions in early WP days. I certainly never understood the point of that impulse reaction considering that David Gerard almost certainly cared not one lick about what people thought of that picture.


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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by TracingWoodgrains » Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:03 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:35 pm
Looks fairly legitimate to me... Anyway, :welcome:

I guess I was a bit disappointed when my earlier call for "two-sentence horror stories" about Dave basically yielded bupkis, but sometimes that happens. (Okay, usually that happens.) I probably shouldn't have placed all those rules and conditions on it, but it's just as likely that people have become happy with the status quo in which Dave spends most of his time bashing the crypto industry — and despite occasional flareups, leaving Wikiland alone for the most part. Most of the really bad stuff he did dates back to the 2004-2014 period, which is a long time in internet years.

The main thing to understand about Dave is that he was never all that interested in improving Wikipedia, or Usenet before it — he was much more interested in scrapping with perceived "enemies" of the "project," especially organized ones, and using that as a way into the leadership clique. He wanted to be the "Lord Protector" and show that just one guy with enough cleverness and "moxie" could take on Evil Corp. by himself and win. He didn't even have to be successful with this approach, since he got away with his high propensity for screwups by the usual means we associate with combative/narcissistic personalities — deflection, blame-shifting, minimizing negative effects, pretending it never happened at all, insisting he was "right all along" despite copious evidence to the contrary, or just-plain lying about it.

And he does have a sense of humor, at least — not a very good one, but better than a typical Wikipedian. That, combined with the fact that he doesn't care how he's perceived by outsiders, makes him a trickier target for critics.
Thanks for the details! The 2004-2014 history is what I’m intrigued by at the moment—I’m more aware of parts of his more recent history and that feels more accessible, but because he’s been around for so long I feel like I need decades of context to really understand things.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by eppur si muove » Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:14 pm

Unfortunately this website was only founded in 2012. The predecessor site Wikipedia Review was damaged by its proprietor. i can see that there was a topic dedicated to DG but cannot see the subthreads. Did anyone take copies of it?

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by rnu » Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:35 pm

eppur si muove wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:14 pm
Unfortunately this website was only founded in 2012. The predecessor site Wikipedia Review was damaged by its proprietor. i can see that there was a topic dedicated to DG but cannot see the subthreads. Did anyone take copies of it?
The "Lo-Fi" version works: http://wikipediareview.com/lofiversion/ ... p/f75.html
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Jester » Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:38 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:40 pm
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:04 pm
Would you mind sharing your website (which you shared with myself and a few others privately) here on the thread?
DanMurphy wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:47 pm
What outlet are you writing the article for? What is your name? Where can we find samples of your work?
Of course! I write primarily under this handle at my own website and Twitter and use the same handle everywhere. Some of my most relevant articles are a deep dive into the FAA's 2014 hiring scandal, the story of /r/antiwork's fall, and unwinding the backstory of a furry beach fight. Previously, I worked for a podcast diving into obscure subculture drama. I specialize in longform deep dives into the layers and layers of backstory of obscure conflicts online or buried in lawsuits that bubbles up into something much more significant without many people noticing.
:welcome:
Out of curiosity, is the username a reference to Orson Scott Card?
May your light shine / And the little birds, /Bring joy with their singing, / They are welcome to me

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by TracingWoodgrains » Sun Jun 30, 2024 10:11 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:38 pm
:welcome:
Out of curiosity, is the username a reference to Orson Scott Card?
It is! Always a pleasure when people notice. The story was something I thought about a lot while I was stepping away from Mormonism. I discuss it more here: link.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by tarantino » Sun Jun 30, 2024 10:28 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2024 10:11 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:38 pm
:welcome:
Out of curiosity, is the username a reference to Orson Scott Card?
It is! Always a pleasure when people notice. The story was something I thought about a lot while I was stepping away from Mormonism. I discuss it more here: link.
We have a couple of long threads about the intersection of Mormonism and wikipedia.

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Let's talk about LDS editors

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by PirateFood » Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:55 am

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:33 am
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 am
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:26 am
David Gerard needs a blog post
Should we try to cover the entire 20 years of abuses, or would it be more practical to determine some sort of arbitrary cutoff date? :unsure:

Another possible approach could be to have everyone submit their favorite Dave Gerard abusiveness anecdote, and put them into some sort of compendium. Just about everybody has one — including me.
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread: I am an independent writer exploring the potential to write an article focused on Gerard's Wikipedia-related history. I've reviewed the information here and the on-wiki behavior and controversies I can find, but if anyone has information I may have missed or other thoughts to share, I would welcome direct messages or replies. In particular, if anyone with an informed perspective is willing to chat at length on the record, I'd appreciate it. I'm an outsider to the whole Wikipedia ecosystem and trying to parse through thousands of pages of history and edits looking for key moments gets rather dense--it's quite easy for me to miss relevant info.

Thanks, all!
Trace! I used to listen to BARpod and I followed you when I had Twitter. I feel like I could contribute something to your story—how should I contact you?

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Jester » Mon Jul 01, 2024 5:05 pm

TracingWoodgrains wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2024 10:11 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:38 pm
:welcome:
Out of curiosity, is the username a reference to Orson Scott Card?
It is! Always a pleasure when people notice. The story was something I thought about a lot while I was stepping away from Mormonism. I discuss it more here: link.
:like:
May your light shine / And the little birds, /Bring joy with their singing, / They are welcome to me

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by TracingWoodgrains » Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:43 pm

PirateFood wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:55 am
Trace! I used to listen to BARpod and I followed you when I had Twitter. I feel like I could contribute something to your story—how should I contact you?
Always a pleasure to run across people who know me from elsewhere! I'd love to hear what you have to say. You can contact me by DM here, on Twitter @tracewoodgrains, or by email at tracingwoodgrains@gmail.com. Thanks!

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Sennalen » Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:27 pm

I saw the essay has landed https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/rel ... edia-admin . Your case is certainly weakened by leading with skepticism towards the general concept of reliable sources. For most sources the essay highlights, I would agree they are unreliable except for reporting their own opinions. The problem with David Gerard & company is not that they remove unreliable sources but that they fight to preserve special carve-outs for equally unreliable sources that share their biases. It does sound like Gerard was a typical victim of the New Atheist / Something Awful pipeline that turned a lot of 90s rationalists into enantiomers of the scientologists and Christian fundamentalists they originally grew up hating.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:50 pm

Sennalen wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:27 pm
I saw the essay has landed https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/rel ... edia-admin ....
I have to say, that's a pretty long and exhaustive bio of the guy. It even goes into the "Uncyclopedia years"... I'll have to reserve a couple of extra days this week to finish reading it! :blink:

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:22 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:50 pm
Sennalen wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:27 pm
I saw the essay has landed https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/rel ... edia-admin ....
I have to say, that's a pretty long and exhaustive bio of the guy. It even goes into the "Uncyclopedia years"... I'll have to reserve a couple of extra days this week to finish reading it! :blink:
I read it. Not bad as far as these things go.

The general gist of it is that the TracingWoodgrains guy likes the LessWrong EA people and has a sad that Gerard has gone to war with them.

What seems missed is the political bent of this all. That seems to often be the occupational hazard of the LessWrong EA people. Like if your paragon of virtuous neutrality is Steven Pinker, you may need to recalibrate.

But I'm sure it's fine. The thing about David Gerard is that he is not motivated by personal animus. He is not going to come after you just for criticizing him, TracingWoodgrains.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:53 am

iii wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:22 pm
But I'm sure it's fine. The thing about David Gerard is that he is not motivated by personal animus. He is not going to come after you just for criticizing him, TracingWoodgrains.
Oh, definitely not. There's like no way he'd go to the trouble of identifying everyone in Mr. Woodgrains' circle of online friends and accuse them all of being his sockpuppets, set up solely for the purpose of pursuing a pro-cryptocurrency agenda.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Hemiauchenia » Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:27 am

I have to say, I have very mixed feelings about DG. My interactions with him have been largely cordial and I tend to agree with a lot of his opinions, but there's no denying the validity of many of the criticisms made of Gerard in the piece. That said, Quilette and The Free Press, which are defended in the piece are largely opinionated contrarianism that isn't really useful for citing in an encyclopaedia.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:49 am

Hemiauchenia wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:27 am
I have to say, I have very mixed feelings about DG. My interactions with him have been largely cordial and I tend to agree with a lot of his opinions, but there's no denying the validity of many of the criticisms made of Gerard in the piece. That said, Quilette and The Free Press, which are defended in the piece are largely opinionated contrarianism that isn't really useful for citing in an encyclopaedia.
Yeah, people can be assholes and right at the same time.

I suspect that even David Gerard might agree to that.

There are many others who fall into that category. Hell, maybe I fall into that category (but maybe I'm the breed of asshole who is wrong which is some sort of terrible mutant). Maybe that's why I like David Gerard.

When it gets right down to the criticisms they often tend to be of the technical nature that one can either accept is based on lies or one can accept is an operator operating. I'm sorry that Gerard has editorial control over various prime internet real estate, but that's just the way it is. Remember: the rules are all largely made up anyway, and in spite of the implication, they aren't made up by just one person.

One of the things I find tiresome/puzzling is the complaint that he went out and created "reliable sources" to promote his understanding of obscure cul du sacs on the internet. "Good for him?" I want to say. That's more or less what I think most people should do when they come up against a wall on Wikipedia.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Dan of La Mancha » Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:07 pm

Some on-wiki follow-up:

* User talk:David Gerard (permalink)
* WP:VPM (permalink)
* WP:ANI (permalink) – scroll for post-close discussion
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel
And the next it's rolling over me...

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Hemiauchenia » Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:36 pm

Dan of La Mancha wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:07 pm
Some on-wiki follow-up:

* User talk:David Gerard (permalink)
* WP:VPM (permalink)
* WP:ANI (permalink) – scroll for post-close discussion
I see our friend Jpxg cannot resist the opportunity to use the ANI thread to once again soapbox and grandstand against the Reliable Sources noticeboard, which is largely off-topic from the discussion. Jpxg gives off huge "enlightened centrist" energy, where he enjoys feeling smug and superior to other Wikipedia editors without actually proposing any real solutions regarding discussing the reliability of sources. It's easy to say "source reliability should be considered in context and there is no need for RSP", and while context should always be considered, the whole argument feels like a cop-out. Is RSP perfect? No, obviously, but do I (and probably most other Wikipedia editors) think that there is merit to the concept of "general reliability" and that RSP serves as a useful compendium of past discussions? Probably yes.
Last edited by Hemiauchenia on Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by orangepi » Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:40 pm

Dan of La Mancha wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:07 pm
Some on-wiki follow-up:

* User talk:David Gerard (permalink)
* WP:VPM (permalink)
* WP:ANI (permalink) – scroll for post-close discussion
Non-admin Valjean is threatening to block a user named TracingWoodgrains who is probably the blog-post editor. Presumably because Valjean would suffer if "exposes of shitty Wikipedia actions" became a more common trend.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Yngvadottir » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:23 pm

I came to this late, but the reporter has been unblocked. After the post-close discussion got quite lengthy. Canterbury Tail was willing to rethink his response. JPXG's pre-emptive "before some bumberchute at Wikipediocracy gets their hemorrhoids up reading me type this dangerous harmful right-wing propaganda" (and its immediate qualification about Republicans) I think is worth memorialising here if only as yet another example of the mindset that everyone, on this site, on Wikipedia, and everywhere, thinks in terms of US politics. Attractive phrasing tho. I wasn't aware that haemorrhoids were erectile tissue. ... And this is a disappointing hot take. "Good block. Nothing constructive about this "complaint", at best it's someone promoting their blog, at worst it's a borderline obsessive fixation on one person. Gamaliel (talk) 13:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)". Managed to fall below my low expectations. Maybe Gamaliel, like me, needed coffee.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:31 pm

iii wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:49 am
Hemiauchenia wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:27 am
I have to say, I have very mixed feelings about DG. My interactions with him have been largely cordial and I tend to agree with a lot of his opinions, but there's no denying the validity of many of the criticisms made of Gerard in the piece. That said, Quilette and The Free Press, which are defended in the piece are largely opinionated contrarianism that isn't really useful for citing in an encyclopaedia.
Yeah, people can be assholes and right at the same time.
I think a real problem with Wikipedia is that the various people who peddle bullshit create assholes. Frustrated people, who have banged their head against the brick wall of mendacious ignorance too often, sometimes get a little intense and maybe just a little bit mad, in both senses.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Tamzin » Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:00 pm

The Blue Newt wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:31 pm
iii wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:49 am
Hemiauchenia wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:27 am
I have to say, I have very mixed feelings about DG. My interactions with him have been largely cordial and I tend to agree with a lot of his opinions, but there's no denying the validity of many of the criticisms made of Gerard in the piece. That said, Quilette and The Free Press, which are defended in the piece are largely opinionated contrarianism that isn't really useful for citing in an encyclopaedia.
Yeah, people can be assholes and right at the same time.
I think a real problem with Wikipedia is that the various people who peddle bullshit create assholes. Frustrated people, who have banged their head against the brick wall of mendacious ignorance too often, sometimes get a little intense and maybe just a little bit mad, in both senses.
"Get some fresh air", "touch grass", etc., are such common insults online, but I've really found over the years that the main thing keeping me from becoming one of those people, throughout dealings with a variety of frustrating, obstinate, willfully ignorant people, has been not letting the Internet be my whole world.

I have this distinct memory of being 16 years old and stumbling on an Internet rabbit hole about TERFism. I'd never encountered anything like that before and it was gnawing at me, as I tried to make sense of this debate that, in my online niche, seemed cataclysmic. Then I went off to do an art project for school, an elaborate depiction of the Shield of Achilles that would partly catch fire. Getting the fire-catching part right was hard, and I wound up spending like four hours in the garage with my neighbor trying different mechanisms. My neighbor (Z''L) was in his 60s or so, a recovering alcoholic and three-pack-a-day smoker who I don't think I ever discussed anything with other than tools and making things. And as we twisted different wire configurations and doused them in lighter fluid, I remember thinking about how there was no way I could possibly make him care even slightly about the debate that was living rent-free in my head. And that was kind of nice. The live-fire unveiling fucking slayed, too.

So when I get too caught up in Internet drama, I just try to go find someone normal to be around, and remember that from their perspective, and the perspective of most people on this planet, what matters is the world right in front of you, not online discourse.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:32 am

The Blue Newt wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:31 pm
I think a real problem with Wikipedia is that the various people who peddle bullshit create assholes. Frustrated people, who have banged their head against the brick wall of mendacious ignorance too often, sometimes get a little intense and maybe just a little bit mad, in both senses.
That's an excellent hypothesis, but as one of the assholes, I think there is probably some natural inclination towards it as well.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Elinruby » Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:34 am

Sennalen wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:27 pm
I saw the essay has landed https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/rel ... edia-admin . Your case is certainly weakened by leading with skepticism towards the general concept of reliable sources. For most sources the essay highlights, I would agree they are unreliable except for reporting their own opinions. The problem with David Gerard & company is not that they remove unreliable sources but that they fight to preserve special carve-outs for equally unreliable sources that share their biases. It does sound like Gerard was a typical victim of the New Atheist / Something Awful pipeline that turned a lot of 90s rationalists into enantiomers of the scientologists and Christian fundamentalists they originally grew up hating.
Thank you for "enantiomers"
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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Zoloft » Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:51 am

Elinruby wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:34 am
Sennalen wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:27 pm
I saw the essay has landed https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/rel ... edia-admin . Your case is certainly weakened by leading with skepticism towards the general concept of reliable sources. For most sources the essay highlights, I would agree they are unreliable except for reporting their own opinions. The problem with David Gerard & company is not that they remove unreliable sources but that they fight to preserve special carve-outs for equally unreliable sources that share their biases. It does sound like Gerard was a typical victim of the New Atheist / Something Awful pipeline that turned a lot of 90s rationalists into enantiomers of the scientologists and Christian fundamentalists they originally grew up hating.
Thank you for "enantiomers"
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Pasteur's earliest work was carried out on tartrates and the effect of tartaric acid on polarized light. He discovered in 1848 that there were in fact 2 different tartrate crystals which had opposite effects on polarized light: when the light was shone through the crystal, it was seen that the 2 different crystals caused the plane of the polarized light to be rotated in opposite directions. This is the only difference between chemical enantiomers, even known today, and Pasteur can be thought of as the real father of stereochemistry for he is the first to have discovered molecular dissymmetry.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Konveyor Belt » Sun Aug 04, 2024 10:17 am

I took another gander at the article and it's hard not to read it as someone just mad that their favorite sources were banned on Wikipedia. Never mind that the Quilette openly promotes race science, it needs to be included, and if it's not included that's censorship.
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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Enantiodromia » Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:20 pm

I was mostly focused on Gerard and didn't pay that part too much heed but I think it's about how Gerard argues sources that go against his beliefs are unreliable whilst sources that do are reliable. Without any regard as to whether the sources have issues of reliability or not.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Sun Aug 04, 2024 11:29 pm

Enantiodromia wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:20 pm
I think it's about how Gerard argues sources that go against his beliefs are unreliable whilst sources that do are reliable. Without any regard as to whether the sources have issues of reliability or not.
If you think that a source is reliable, then you automatically think the beliefs it represents are reliable.

Just say you don't agree with Gerard's beliefs. It's more honest than trying to pose a meta-argument about "reliability".

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Elinruby » Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:57 am

iii wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2024 11:29 pm
Enantiodromia wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:20 pm
I think it's about how Gerard argues sources that go against his beliefs are unreliable whilst sources that do are reliable. Without any regard as to whether the sources have issues of reliability or not.
If you think that a source is reliable, then you automatically think the beliefs it represents are reliable.

Just say you don't agree with Gerard's beliefs. It's more honest than trying to pose a meta-argument about "reliability".
I dunno, a current RfC is saying that the National Post is reliable even despite the shit it prints.
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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:20 pm

Elinruby wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:57 am
I dunno, a current RfC is saying that the National Post is reliable even despite the shit it prints.
Considering the National Post to be "reliable" for information about, say, climate science, is folly. It's simply not reliable for those purposes no matter how much Wikipedians twist the meaning of "reliability".

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Elinruby » Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:02 pm

iii wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:20 pm
Elinruby wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:57 am
I dunno, a current RfC is saying that the National Post is reliable even despite the shit it prints.
Considering the National Post to be "reliable" for information about, say, climate science, is folly. It's simply not reliable for those purposes no matter how much Wikipedians twist the meaning of "reliability".
I think it's a kind of nationalism personally. It was explicitly founded for partisan POV-pushing. The other part of it is that this has been the status quo long enough for a generation to grow up thinking it's normal. But yeah, it's pretty shoddy overall and I try not to use it. Its reliable in the sense that if it says Trudeau said something, he will have pronounced those words, but it's entirely possible the context is very wrong. And it uses the same menus for news and opinion. Apparently this is not a problem because people can tell the difference, cough. At best it's a hyperpartisan USA Today
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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:05 pm

Elinruby wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:02 pm
iii wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:20 pm
Elinruby wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:57 am
I dunno, a current RfC is saying that the National Post is reliable even despite the shit it prints.
Considering the National Post to be "reliable" for information about, say, climate science, is folly. It's simply not reliable for those purposes no matter how much Wikipedians twist the meaning of "reliability".
I think it's a kind of nationalism personally. It was explicitly founded for partisan POV-pushing. The other part of it is that this has been the status quo long enough for a generation to grow up thinking it's normal. But yeah, it's pretty shoddy overall and I try not to use it. Its reliable in the sense that if it says Trudeau said something, he will have pronounced those words, but it's entirely possible the context is very wrong. And it uses the same menus for news and opinion. Apparently this is not a problem because people can tell the difference, cough. At best it's a hyperpartisan USA Today
This example makes the point well, I think. Many of the champions of WP:RS (T-H-L) on Wikipedia want to remove the editorial consideration of sources. Couple that with the attachment disorders with respect to reality when some adopt a toady adherence to WP:NPOV (T-H-L) and verifiability, not truth, and you end up with an unhinged conceit that Wikipedia can and should somehow stand above whichever fray and "not take sides". For these people, that is the inviolable ideal, and it leads such editors into dead-end thinking where the real bad guys are the people who are being honest and saying, "Hey, if you are purporting to be giving information about this subject, it needs to be correct."

Fortunately, a lot of the earliest partisans who were pushing reality-divorced arguments have stepped aside or been pushed out. To take their place, I see a lot of newer actors adopting the wikipropaganda as god-given, and they show their fawning appreciation for Wikipedia's organizing philosophies in kool-aid-drinking posts. I don't blame them, necessarily. I think they've been duped/trained into thinking that these principles of Wikipedia are somehow well-thought-out. But I often wish there was a bit more critical thinking applied.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Elinruby » Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:23 pm

iii wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:05 pm
Elinruby wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:02 pm
iii wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:20 pm
Elinruby wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:57 am
I dunno, a current RfC is saying that the National Post is reliable even despite the shit it prints.
Considering the National Post to be "reliable" for information about, say, climate science, is folly. It's simply not reliable for those purposes no matter how much Wikipedians twist the meaning of "reliability".
I think it's a kind of nationalism personally. It was explicitly founded for partisan POV-pushing. The other part of it is that this has been the status quo long enough for a generation to grow up thinking it's normal. But yeah, it's pretty shoddy overall and I try not to use it. Its reliable in the sense that if it says Trudeau said something, he will have pronounced those words, but it's entirely possible the context is very wrong. And it uses the same menus for news and opinion. Apparently this is not a problem because people can tell the difference, cough. At best it's a hyperpartisan USA Today
This example makes the point well, I think. Many of the champions of WP:RS (T-H-L) on Wikipedia want to remove the editorial consideration of sources. Couple that with the attachment disorders with respect to reality when some adopt a toady adherence to WP:NPOV (T-H-L) and verifiability, not truth, and you end up with an unhinged conceit that Wikipedia can and should somehow stand above whichever fray and "not take sides". For these people, that is the inviolable ideal, and it leads such editors into dead-end thinking where the real bad guys are the people who are being honest and saying, "Hey, if you are purporting to be giving information about this subject, it needs to be correct."

Fortunately, a lot of the earliest partisans who were pushing reality-divorced arguments have stepped aside or been pushed out. To take their place, I see a lot of newer actors adopting the wikipropaganda as god-given, and they show their fawning appreciation for Wikipedia's organizing philosophies in kool-aid-drinking posts. I don't blame them, necessarily. I think they've been duped/trained into thinking that these principles of Wikipedia are somehow well-thought-out. But I often wish there was a bit more critical thinking applied.
By that standard every newpaper article about Jews written in Nazi Germany is 100% reliable because it's an archived print source. I dunno. I didn't even start the RfC, but someone got very upset when I said that I try not to use it when it comes to residential schools and started an RfC. Reminds me of when they voted on whether to say someone was a Nazi, but nobody actually checked the sources. Ok? I'm still going to replace NP with a better source whenever I can no matter what. It seems like there is a lot of attention paid to "how bad a source can you get away with using" vs "what is the best source for this material"?

I had a prolonged argument with someone once about an out of print book in Polish that he absolutely wanted to use, yet all it was referencing was the day the Germans invaded Lithuania. In other words a plethora of in-print English-language sources existed. But he got all outraged and I dropped it. I mean, I am sure the day was correct and that's what counts, but I myself could not prove it by the source provided.
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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by JarrBarr » Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:57 pm

Not sure where to post it, but Mr. Tracing Woodgrains went on the Quillette podcast yesterday.
Unfortunately they cut off the transcript at the 21st minute and I just can't be arsed listening to all of it.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Sennalen » Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:41 pm

iii wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:05 pm
This example makes the point well, I think. Many of the champions of WP:RS (T-H-L) on Wikipedia want to remove the editorial consideration of sources. Couple that with the attachment disorders with respect to reality when some adopt a toady adherence to WP:NPOV (T-H-L) and verifiability, not truth, and you end up with an unhinged conceit that Wikipedia can and should somehow stand above whichever fray and "not take sides". For these people, that is the inviolable ideal, and it leads such editors into dead-end thinking where the real bad guys are the people who are being honest and saying, "Hey, if you are purporting to be giving information about this subject, it needs to be correct."

Fortunately, a lot of the earliest partisans who were pushing reality-divorced arguments have stepped aside or been pushed out. To take their place, I see a lot of newer actors adopting the wikipropaganda as god-given, and they show their fawning appreciation for Wikipedia's organizing philosophies in kool-aid-drinking posts. I don't blame them, necessarily. I think they've been duped/trained into thinking that these principles of Wikipedia are somehow well-thought-out. But I often wish there was a bit more critical thinking applied.
Deciding reliability based on whether it has good opinions will always lead to the question, whose opinions? When you went along with declaring one angry self-published oncologist to be the ultimate authority on all topics, you never thought the leopards would eat your face. Either there are neutral, objective criteria about what constitutes a reliable source - or there aren't, and you end up with the tyranny of the majority. And the majority says critical thinking is just a WP:TIMESINK.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by iii » Mon Oct 28, 2024 7:00 pm

Sennalen wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:41 pm
Either there are neutral, objective criteria about what constitutes a reliable source - or there aren't, and you end up with the tyranny of the majority. And the majority says critical thinking is just a WP:TIMESINK.
Emphasis mine.

This is the right direction to drive in. Keep driving that way.

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Re: Slate Star Codex

Unread post by Sennalen » Mon Nov 11, 2024 4:36 pm

iii wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2024 7:00 pm
Sennalen wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:41 pm
Either there are neutral, objective criteria about what constitutes a reliable source - or there aren't, and you end up with the tyranny of the majority. And the majority says critical thinking is just a WP:TIMESINK.
Emphasis mine.

This is the right direction to drive in. Keep driving that way.
It's not a statement about an immovable, existing thing existing outside the discourse. It's a question of which policy you want and which outcome you get. You're clear on the policy you want, but you don't like the outcome you got. When you don't like where you are going, turn around and drive the other way.

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