Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:56 pm

Pretty sure this link will end up in the court record is Giraffe Stapler ever gets called to testify.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:Or a bunch of flipped and crazy gender bitches, female. That wiki woman at WP-NL where really aggressive to man, I told it before if woman IRL life where like them I should immediately emigrate to Athos, the monk republic in Greece. Leave that sex! No thanks! Better to be all my life without it! And who for the hell would like to have sex with such a wiki gender bitch in full action is what I am often wonder, so you should mis nothing. Really nothing. Why for the hell should someone want to harassed such a complete frustrated idiot. I think they will beat you after sex and break your nose or something like that, you have to fear for your life. No, no, no, no thanks for me no wiki chicks!
Honestly, it's a sure sign of your imbecility that you think they would have sex with you in the first place.
Remember, I've seen your pictures.
It's surprising your right hand even puts up with your awkward sexual advances.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:What do you think, do you really think the Dutch coloured people, woman and other minorities are crying for free source content and are willing to storm the European Parlement with a pirate flag in there hand?? In name of a not or hardly existing political party The Pirate Party no one have ever heard off? What kind of people do you think will be attacked to such a crazy steal a bike and give the parts for free away mouvement?
Those wiki guys male and female should also run naked 100 rounds on De Mariaplaats every day for the grants out of America if that was what the lunatics out of the States should order, not any problem. Or dance in a traditional Indian suit with a pirate flag in there hand on De Dam in Amsterdam shouting yes, free source for the Indians in America. As long as uncle WMF is giving them there grands they are willing to do anything they ask. Anything!
Wat?!
Seriously, Martin, get some professional help, dude.

Your brain is broken.
Last edited by Vigilant on Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 pm

God damn!
Shit just goes sideways on page 3.

Giraffe Stapler gets his offtopic spleen venting about me split from the main thread and loses. his. damn. mind.

The Notorious Timothy Usher aka Proabivouac, calls a spade a shovel.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:Should it not be more polite to answer my posting in the spin off, Pro? You claim I have to make my excuses to Viligiant, I explane why that is rediciles, you don't react and goes on here about Fæ. Fuck off Pro, finish first that discussion before you go on about Fæ! I am not interested in Fæ.This is extreem impolite what you are doing.
Proabviouac wrote:It is obvious that Vigilant is correct in his contention that you are mentally ill. Happy now? It's not impolite to ignore you because the alternative is to say what I just said. I have been trying to be polite this entire time and it's not working. Please go start your own threads and leave mine alone. This is just getting rediciles, really. There needs to be an Earl Statler forum to which your posts are confined and others can join you if they like.
There's a term for that, Timothy.
It's called a zoo.

A flurry of posts emerge from the Giraffe Staplers' furious pwnage and drench his CRT monitor and drown the tiny plastic lady in the model train peeing diorama in torrents of hot, sticky spittle...
Giraffe Stapler wrote:No mister Pro, that is in no way clear. You claimed I had to say sorry to Villigiant who was lying, trolling and framing and misusing confidential material, I explained you that was nonsens and you are NOT going on before you say I was wrong, mister Pro! Because you was, complete wrong.

And I have not any mental defect mister Pro, experts have draw that conclusion. Mister Vig is not qualified, just like you are not.

Your excuses and now, mister Pro! After that the topic is complete yours. You are extreme impolite now and a complete jerk, mister Pro!
Giraffe Stapler wrote:You are a lier, a troll and a jerk mister Pro, just like your mate Vig. And you know much better.
Giraffe Stapler wrote:Polite? You? Or your mates? Complete joker! Polite! Mister Proabivouac is a humorist I suppose?
You are a never emptying shitcan with your lies and trolling just like you wikimates like Vig! You don't even know what the world polite means, idiot!
Giraffe Stapler wrote:in short, get lost son of a bitch with you deformation and fuck off, cunt what you are with your troll Vigiliant bullshit!
Giraffe Stapler wrote:Dirty bitch and lier!
editor's note: Style of original post applied here for clarity.
A work of great mental stability there, son.

Can you elaborate on how your significant other reacted when you had your psychotic break?
Is this at least partially to blame for why your family treats you as a pariah?
Last edited by Vigilant on Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:30 pm

Whereupon, the Giraffe Stapler crawls home to his tiny, slovenly den to lick his suppurating wounds.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=40#p9802
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Anroth » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:28 pm

Vigilant wrote:Whereupon, the Giraffe Stapler crawls home to his tiny, slovenly den to lick his suppurating wounds.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=40#p9802
Did you burn his puppy alive or something? Theres a lot of threads there dedicated to you. I mean, well done of course, but keep a bat by the bed ;)

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:46 pm

Anroth wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Whereupon, the Giraffe Stapler crawls home to his tiny, slovenly den to lick his suppurating wounds.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=40#p9802
Did you burn his puppy alive or something? Theres a lot of threads there dedicated to you. I mean, well done of course, but keep a bat by the bed ;)
I've got a commanding view of our driveway with good German optics zeroed.

I did some digging into his past after he started shitting all over things.
He didn't enjoy what I found and the small part of what I've posted of that find.

The moral of the story is and has always been...
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:13 pm

I haven't found his police records yet, but I've got a friend from a former gig who is in country making discrete inquiries.

There's no way you have a psychotic break that requires involuntary psychiatric committal without leaving a law enforcement trail.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Anroth » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Vigilant wrote:I haven't found his police records yet, but I've got a friend from a former gig who is in country making discrete inquiries.

There's no way you have a psychotic break that requires involuntary psychiatric committal without leaving a law enforcement trail.
Actually in the UK you can be easily these days, and in a number of other countries with comparable laws I would assume. An involuntary psych hold doesnt require arrest or any sort of ongoing law enforcement issue in the UK. It may often do so if the police have to be involved to the level where they have to take the person to a place of safety (often the station), but routinely in the UK mental health holds with police involvement have no lasting records on the legal side, and the medical side is sealed or covered by DPA/GDPR.

(In these days of paperwork, PC plod doesnt have to write up a load of form and go to court if they can palm it off as a mental health issue, the doctor gets to do all the work)

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:28 pm

Vigilant wrote:I haven't found his police records yet, but I've got a friend from a former gig who is in country making discrete inquiries.

There's no way you have a psychotic break that requires involuntary psychiatric committal without leaving a law enforcement trail.
In which a demonstration of social engineering shows how it is possible, with extremely limited information, to cause someone else to publicly confirm that they had a psychotic breakdown and provide additional details for my search...
Giraffe Stapler wrote:Ha, Ha, Ha! What a joker! You have and will find nothing about me, my friend, for the simple reason there is nothing!
And read well, there is nowhere written I had a psychotic break down, and it is later revised to a neurologic incident! What police, there has not any police involved, idiot! iI went with my own car to the hospital because I understood something was terrible wrong idiot!
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by BURob13 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:20 am

Is it really necessary to go that far, Vig? At some point, I just feel bad for the obviously mentally ill guy.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:43 am

BURob13 wrote:Is it really necessary to go that far, Vig? At some point, I just feel bad for the obviously mentally ill guy.
Necessary?

No.

Justified?

Yes.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:48 am

BURob13 wrote:Is it really necessary to go that far, Vig? At some point, I just feel bad for the obviously mentally ill guy.
Besides, I read on the internet that Vig is (and I quote) "autistic... autistic... autistic... autistic..."

He probably can't help himself!

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:35 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:Besides, I read on the internet that ...
I hope that was in a reliable source like Wikipedia. :B'
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:49 am

Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by rhindle » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:04 am

He is crowdsourcing legal advice. It is illegal to give legal if you are not a licensed attorney. I guess this thread could have some legal advice in it but it's more of an awareness of reality rather than giving any advice.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:27 am

rhindle wrote:
He is crowdsourcing legal advice. It is illegal to give legal if you are not a licensed attorney. I guess this thread could have some legal advice in it but it's more of an awareness of reality rather than giving any advice.
Isn't suborning a felony a felony itself?
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:13 pm

Vigilant wrote:
rhindle wrote:
He is crowdsourcing legal advice. It is illegal to give legal if you are not a licensed attorney. I guess this thread could have some legal advice in it but it's more of an awareness of reality rather than giving any advice.
Isn't suborning a felony a felony itself?
Unless you're President.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:33 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
rhindle wrote:
He is crowdsourcing legal advice. It is illegal to give legal if you are not a licensed attorney. I guess this thread could have some legal advice in it but it's more of an awareness of reality rather than giving any advice.
Isn't suborning a felony a felony itself?
Unless you're President.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by BURob13 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:57 am

I don't think anything in here is offering legal advice. It's offering general information on a legal matter. A journalist doesn't have to worry about giving "legal advice" when they comment on a legal case, for instance.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:09 pm

We have no reason to think that Abd is reading this, or that he'd take a blind bit of notice of anything here that could be construed as advice if he is reading it.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by rhindle » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:43 am

Etherman wrote:You're going to get a judge quite angry if you misrepresent a prior ruling[Noonan v. Staples] just so you know... Judges really REALLY don't like that.
True that. I wonder Abd has sufficiently shepardized that case.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:52 pm

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=70#p9916

Dunning-Kruger... the struggle is real.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:15 am

Image
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:36 am

Odd, the things you find just lying about...

https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2012/07/ ... ikas-coup/
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:52 am

Peekaboo...
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:58 am

Strange things on the dutch wiki...
Discussion User: 213.10.53.87
moved from project page

In my opinion, the behavior of both still varies so far that I hope that we can still assume that AGF can be used and that we agree that Rachel (213.10.53.87) can indeed be a mediating family member! Ciell 24 Apr 2009 23:16 (CEST)

If I look at the writing style (disguised threats and comments a few hours in succession on the same) then apparently the way of writing / responding is in the genes of the family (incl. The language errors). Given the disguised threat of legal action ("extremely interesting from a legal point of view" and the comment in the Pub) there is no question of mediation, 213.10.53.87 just continues where Martin left off. - Robert (consultation) 25 Apr 2009 15:03 (CEST)

Then of course the question remains as to whether this abuse is or simply irritating. Fontes Apr 25, 2009 3:44 PM (CEST)

More than irritating, it seems to me. 213.10.53.87 has moved whole pieces of the discussion with 80.61.95.227 or Martin.vl from my talk page, without my consent, to Talk: Rudolf Vleeskruijer (see [1]). Subsequently, this operation [2] very much seems to come out of the box of Martin55 / martin.vl / 80.61.95.227. Gouwenaar 25 Apr 2009 20:17 (CEST)

Seems clear to me. To return to Fontes' question: starting in a discussion and then continuing to roll with a sock puppet is abuse of sock puppets, see also Wikipedia: Sock puppet abuse. - Robert (consultation) 25 Apr 2009 22:12 (CEST)

Although the terms trolls etc still remain vague and it still seems annoying to me. if this turns out to be 1 and the same person then what? Has a 'violation' been committed? Fontes 25 Apr 2009 23:48 (CEST)

213.10.53.87 presents itself as another person, who gives an independent opinion on the contributions of Martin55, Martin.vl and 80.61.95.227, which then seems to be all about deception. See, e.g., [3], [4], [5], [6] and [7]. Gouwenaar 26 Apr 2009 15:10 (CEST)

Agree, it is useful to perhaps put this kind of thing into the initial application a little better. Transparency and such :) Fontes Apr 26, 2009 5:08 PM (CEST)

What was unclear about the initial application? - Robert (consultation) 26 Apr 2009 20:27 (CEST)

Eh, according to mystats.nl both IP addresses are in different places. Balko Kabo Apr 30, 2009 1:54 AM (CEST)

Is not that interesting. There are compelling reasons for this and Wikipedia is aware of this. Puppet theater is not being used, no more has been posted on the previous IP and no more will be posted. Moreover, today I have been seriously hurt by the events, I don't understand your problem. And I only posted Rudolf Vleeskruijer on the page and that one comment. 213.10.53.87 30 Apr 2009 23:18 (CEST)

So satisfied? properly logged in? End of discussion please Rachel-v May 1, 2009 00:03 (CEST)
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:01 am

Wow... just wow...

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... -b3kKC6CUA

You sure were interested in punching Jimmy's fart box with your tongue there, Martin.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:03 am

Can we stop with the women in toilets fetish already?

https://youtu.be/oErYimrBRS4?t=9
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:17 pm

Jesus, this is just at the 12(b)(6) stage people. Virtually every comment prior to here is thinking at least three steps ahead. Especially soiling yourselves thinking about witnesses or trials, and particularly thinking about counterclaims or sanctions. Holy christ why would you disrupt your own business to try to get a damages judgment against a guy who probably wouldn't have the money to pay it? And then he gets to depose you!

And sanctions? Leaving aside the fact that this guy is probably judgment-proof, none of this looks so extremely egregious that it'll result in a legal fees decision... yet. Just being wrong, even really really wrong, about the law isn't grounds for sanctions. The only sanction likely to be sought, and which may well be granted after another amendment, is dismissal with prejudice.

It's not even worth drafting the sanctions motion, let alone serving it.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:11 pm

mendaliv wrote:...and particularly thinking about counterclaims or sanctions. Holy christ why would you disrupt your own business to try to get a damages judgment against a guy who probably wouldn't have the money to pay it? And then he gets to depose you!
I guess that's kinda what I was thinking, but... you don't think they'd do it to set some sort of legal precedent, or to try and intimidate potential future litigants with similar complaints? Or maybe just because they can?

Obviously I'm no lawyer and I'm biased against them to start with, but to me it just seems like the sort of thing they might do.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:11 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
mendaliv wrote:...and particularly thinking about counterclaims or sanctions. Holy christ why would you disrupt your own business to try to get a damages judgment against a guy who probably wouldn't have the money to pay it? And then he gets to depose you!
I guess that's kinda what I was thinking, but... you don't think they'd do it to set some sort of legal precedent, or to try and intimidate potential future litigants with similar complaints? Or maybe just because they can?

Obviously I'm no lawyer and I'm biased against them to start with, but to me it just seems like the sort of thing they might do.
It’s exactly what I would do.

See patent trolls.
The only long term option is to exterminate them in the courts or pay never ending greenmail.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:24 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
mendaliv wrote:...and particularly thinking about counterclaims or sanctions. Holy christ why would you disrupt your own business to try to get a damages judgment against a guy who probably wouldn't have the money to pay it? And then he gets to depose you!
I guess that's kinda what I was thinking, but... you don't think they'd do it to set some sort of legal precedent, or to try and intimidate potential future litigants with similar complaints? Or maybe just because they can?

Obviously I'm no lawyer and I'm biased against them to start with, but to me it just seems like the sort of thing they might do.
Great questions. I'm only too happy to provide some general answers. Please excuse my pedantry with terminology: A lot of these annoy the hell out of me when I see them misused in the popular press.
  • The procedural posture of this case is in pretrial motions, before the district court. District court decisions (orders or judgments) aren't precedential, though they can be persuasive (that's right, Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. is NOT binding precedent anywhere, but it seems that many courts have accepted it as a logical extension of Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Tel. Serv. Co. and related cases, which are binding precedent).
  • If an order issues and is appealed (in this case to the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the 1st Circuit, because the trial court is the District Court for the District of Massachusetts), the resulting decision could be binding precedent, but only (1) upon the District Courts whose decisions are appealable to the 1st Circuit, and (2) if the appellate panel designates its opinion as precedential. Appellate panels generally designate their opinions as precedential when they articulate some new principle of law or refine a previous principle of law (or serve to overrule or abrogate—yes these are different things—prior case law for the circuit).
    Circuit Court opinions may be further refined by requesting a rehearing en banc (by all the active judges on that judicial circuit, rather than a panel)... this is usually denied. Either way, the next step in the federal courts is a petition for certiorari to the Supreme Court, which is a discretionary review that the Court may accept or deny for basically any reason or no reason (cert. is often incorrectly called an appeal; while appeals to SCOTUS, which are mandatory, can occur, they never come from the circuit courts and almost never from the federal courts). When and if SCOTUS issues a merits opinion on a case, it is then the law of the land.
  • What's happening in this case isn't really asking for precedent to be set, at least in terms of procedure (i.e., sanctions procedure). Litigants, both pro se and represented by licensed counsel, file suit with all sorts of garbage all the time. What we're talking about here would be, I believe, a Rule 11 sanction. The sorts of conduct that would violate Rule 11 are listed in Rule 11(b). Relevant here might be:
    (b) By presenting to the court a pleading, written motion, or other paper . . . an attorney or unrepresented party certifies that to the best of the person's knowledge, information, and belief, formed after an inquiry reasonable under the circumstances:
    . . . .
    (2) the claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law or for establishing new law;
    (3) the factual contentions have evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, will likely have evidentiary support after a reasonable opportunity for further investigation or discovery; . . .
    . . . .
    Key language here is that by filing the pleading, he's certifying that "to the best of [his] knowledge, information, and belief", and that the legal contentions need not lie entirely within existing law; provided you make a nonfrivolous argument for changing the case law, you can still make that legal contention. Much the same with factual contentions: he's certifying that "to the best of [his] knowledge, information, and belief" those contentions have evidentiary support or will likely have evidentiary support after reasonable discovery. Bear in mind that the exact dimensions of these words and phrases are tied up in loads and loads of case law. A good example of this might be seen in Judge Saylor's order denying defendants' motion for fees and costs in Anaqua, Inc. v. Schroeder (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USC ... 0710-2.pdf) at pages 6-7.
  • Supposing WMF moves for sanctions and successfully proves that he violated Rule 11, the next step is to determine what, if any, sanctions are appropriate. The judge has full discretion to choose a sanction, constrained pretty much only by Rule 11(c)(4). In practice, I understand this could be effectively nothing, an admonishment, or possibly something more serious (including procedural penalties like striking a pleading or dismissing a complaint). Basically it's whatever's necessary to deter repetition, and no more. The fact that the plaintiff here is pro se will presumably cut in his favor when it comes to deciding whether to impose monetary sanctions, unless he's a frequent flyer.
  • Going to counterclaims, I'd point back to the fact that they're trying to get out of this without doing discovery. If WMF file a counterclaim, he can file a responsive pleading asserting legal defenses, and then conduct discovery to prove those defenses. If that discovery results in evidence he believes will support his original lawsuit, he could refile or seek leave to refile on the basis of this new evidence. But more than anything, discovery is expensive and disruptive of your day-to-day operations. It's expensive because you have to do privilege checks of all outgoing documents, and bear the expense of that (document review involves teams of lawyers looking at every single page of every single document). And, god forbid, if this guy gets to discovery, he could probably subpoena Jimbo Wales himself (this is called an "apex deposition"). How's that for disrupting your day-to-day operations—kidding aside, if you were Wales you'd think your day-to-day operations were pretty disrupted by this and want to fire Jones Day.
    So yeah, I really think it's unlikely that they go for counterclaims.
  • One last point that's been brought up is the forum-selection and venue-selection clause in the TOS. I'm skeptical whether you can contract away your right to seek redress for all torts. Suppose WMF hosted a party in Reno where a lot of liquor was served. Someone hypothetical, very intoxicated, gets behind the wheel of his car and runs down our plaintiff, who happens to be a Wikipedia editor. He then sues WMF in Nevada state court claiming dram shop liability. WMF removes to federal court and moves to transfer claiming the forum and venue selection control. Obviously, the current situation is a bit different insofar as at least some of the claimed tortious defamation is the publication of the ban; it's something closely linked to use of the website and the TOS. But... I don't know, I feel like there's an argument there. At the very least, there is probably a "nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law" in fighting a transfer motion (which means more legal fees WMF won't recoup).
    But talking about forum and venue selection is a bit too soon: Far better is getting a dismissal, and Rule 12(b)(6) is the weapon of choice here. Lose on that, then seek transfer. A 12(b)(6) motion is relatively cheap and easy, since all you're doing is showing that the plaintiff's pleadings are faulty. Just point to the defects and use legal argumentation. You can practically do it using boilerplate. No evidence is necessary (arguably, no evidence should be used because the submission of evidence with a 12(b)(6) motion converts it into a motion for summary judgment, which you probably didn't want to do).
I think that's pretty much everything. I'd be happy to discuss pretrial procedure some more if anyone cares.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:24 am

mendaliv wrote:I think that's pretty much everything. I'd be happy to discuss pretrial procedure some more if anyone cares.
For your sake, maybe it's best to wait until the case gets closer to reaching that point. Either way, wow, that's a very detailed and informative answer - thanks! :)

It's a particularly good point about privilege checks on outgoing documents, and the cost thereof - I guess a few of us might have been thinking they'd just hand over copies of everything they have and say, "we're an open book, have at it," but no sizable organization is actually that transparent. At the very least we know the WMF has plenty of secret/private/internal communications channels that they don't want outsiders looking at, and presumably there are logs and other records of those communications. So yes, something like that could certainly get a bit too spendy for them.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:56 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
mendaliv wrote:I think that's pretty much everything. I'd be happy to discuss pretrial procedure some more if anyone cares.
For your sake, maybe it's best to wait until the case gets closer to reaching that point. Either way, wow, that's a very detailed and informative answer - thanks! :)

It's a particularly good point about privilege checks on outgoing documents, and the cost thereof - I guess a few of us might have been thinking they'd just hand over copies of everything they have and say, "we're an open book, have at it," but no sizable organization is actually that transparent. At the very least we know the WMF has plenty of secret/private/internal communications channels that they don't want outsiders looking at, and presumably there are logs and other records of those communications. So yes, something like that could certainly get a bit too spendy for them.
To be fair, I don't think our intrepid plaintiff has the wherewithal to manage corporate discovery—no knocks intended against him, I wouldn't know exactly what to do either and would probably wind up copying and pasting everything out of a forms book or pattern discovery treatise.

For my money, though, I think an apex deposition would be what really does it. Imagine you're Jimbo Wales, and the Jones Day lawyer calls you and says you have to be available to do a deposition (either in person or by telephone) in a few months, that he wants to prep you, and that he estimates the total time for prep and the depo will be around 8 hours spread across two days. How much do you think that time and frustration is worth to Jimbo? On top of the costs of paying the Jones Day guy to do prep and to run his side of the depo. $25k? Chump change. Sure, sure, it's the principle of the thing, and you're inviting other trolls by doing nuisance settlements, but is it really worth that frustration? You want to go back to jet setting, to schmoozing, to enjoying your life.

And then the Jones Day guy tells you the risks inherent in giving the depo. What if you say something... unscripted? What if you have a Paula Deen moment? Or a Joe Jamail moment? The other guy is going to be pushing hard, and while your attorney can try to protect you if the other guy starts to harass you, unless some very, very limited exceptions apply, you must answer the deposition questions.

Again, this guy being pro se, you don't expect him to be good at depositions. But it'll still be stressful and time-consuming. An oral depo can last up to 7 hours without leave of court.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:53 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:It's a particularly good point about privilege checks on outgoing documents, and the cost thereof - I guess a few of us might have been thinking they'd just hand over copies of everything they have and say, "we're an open book, have at it," but no sizable organization is actually that transparent. At the very least we know the WMF has plenty of secret/private/internal communications channels that they don't want outsiders looking at, and presumably there are logs and other records of those communications. So yes, something like that could certainly get a bit too spendy for them.
Of course, the WMF boasts about its openness, but it's a total sham.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:55 pm

Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:11 pm

One of the WMF's points is " To the extent Plaintiff’s claims against Wikimedia are not dismissed, Wikimedia reserves the right to move to dismiss or transfer this case to the Northern District of California" (footnote 4, page 5). It will be interesting to see what the court thinks about that.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:34 pm

Yeah it's just another 12(b)(6) motion. This is roughly the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure equivalent of the common law demurrer, which has been perhaps most colorfully described as the litigation equivalent of saying "So what?": In its most basic form, it's a statement that even if everything pleaded in the complaint is taken as true, it could not result in judgment for the plaintiff. As the federal pleading standards have gotten more complex in the wake of Twombly and Iqbal, some more specificity is necessary in pleading a lot of stuff before you can get to discovery. Pleading is historically incredibly complex, but is supposed to be rather simple under the federal rules... but even under the federal rules the clever litigant can make hay out of weak pleadings and significantly delay a case.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:43 am

mendaliv wrote:but even under the federal rules the clever litigant can make hay out of weak pleadings and significantly delay a case.
And of course the WMF has expensive high-powered lawyers while Abd is representing himself.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Carcharoth » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:02 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:It's a particularly good point about privilege checks on outgoing documents, and the cost thereof - I guess a few of us might have been thinking they'd just hand over copies of everything they have and say, "we're an open book, have at it," but no sizable organization is actually that transparent. At the very least we know the WMF has plenty of secret/private/internal communications channels that they don't want outsiders looking at, and presumably there are logs and other records of those communications. So yes, something like that could certainly get a bit too spendy for them.
I was thinking about this the other day. There are various private wikis that are around. The en-Wikipedia ArbCom has one. There are also several WMF private wikis (more than I realised, though a full listing appears to be here on meta).

Some of them are:
*wikimediafoundation.org (public-facing)
*foundation.wikimedia.org (public, for governance)
*board.wikimedia.org (private, WMF Board)
*office.wikimedia.org (private, WMF Office)
*collab.wikimedia.org (private whitelisted, collaboration between Wikimedia staff and external contractors)

Would all these be fair game in discovery if anything got to that stage? What about the private wikis of the Wikimanias and the WMF chapters and affilliates? The full private list is apparently (according to the meta page) here.

advisorswiki
arbcom_cswiki
arbcom_dewiki
arbcom_enwiki
arbcom_fiwiki
arbcom_nlwiki
auditcomwiki
boardgovcomwiki
boardwiki
chairwiki
chapcomwiki
checkuserwiki
collabwiki
ecwikimedia
electcomwiki
execwiki
fdcwiki
grantswiki
id_internalwikimedia
iegcomwiki
ilwikimedia
internalwiki
legalteamwiki
movementroleswiki
noboard_chapterswikimedia
officewiki
ombudsmenwiki
otrs_wikiwiki
projectcomwiki
searchcomwiki
spcomwiki
stewardwiki
techconductwiki
transitionteamwiki
wg_enwiki
wikimaniateamwiki
zerowiki

When you go looking, there is lots out there that everyday en-Wikipedians would not be aware of, such as the WMF Board Handbook and the Wikimedia Foundation Board Governance Committee. Who knew that Newyorkbrad (T-C-L) has been a non-voting advisory member of that WMF governance sub-committee since 2016?

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Dysklyver » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:38 pm

Carcharoth wrote:various private wikis that are around....
I tried figuring out the network of these private wikis a year ago, but hit a stone wall because it's all very secret. However, it appears the majority of these private wikis are either barely used, or were failed one off use projects. I understand that the mailing lists are a more detailed source of internal information.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Guido den Broeder » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:07 pm

Do they still use a hidden partition of the French Wikipedia for super-secret discussions?

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:37 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Would all these be fair game in discovery if anything got to that stage?
Possibly. A few years ago definitely, but the discovery rules have been tightened a bit.
What about the private wikis of the Wikimanias and the WMF chapters and affilliates?
Records in the possession of nonparties? You should be able to subpoena them. Actually that might be quite damaging: They don't have the deep pockets WMF has to handle and respond to discovery requests. So they'd need money, money, money to hire counsel. I'm not as sure about getting jurisdiction over nonparties to compel document production. Particularly if they're outside the forum or outside the country.

But I should be clear, discovery isn't my bag. Jurisdictional problems are.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:42 pm

The WMF would surely fight to keep some of these secret, especially the checkuser wiki. And of course the US courts have no power over chapters outside the US, so that would get quite complicated.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:32 am

Poetlister wrote:And of course the US courts have no power over chapters outside the US
Eh it's more complicated than that.

Basically when you're talking about the jurisdiction of a court, you're talking about subject matter jurisdiction and personal jurisdiction. The former is the power of the court to decide this sort of matter or claim or complaint. The latter is the power of the court to adjudicate the rights of these particular parties.

Importantly, subject-matter jurisdiction isn't exactly tied to geographic location, whether of the parties or the acts/omissions giving rise to the lawsuit. (see below) Subject-matter jurisdiction can't be waived by the parties, even deliberately; the courts are not permitted to adjudicate a claim outside their subject-matter jurisdiction, and if they should happen to do so, the result of that adjudication is subject to collateral attack in another court. A key distinction with subject-matter jurisdiction is that not all parts of a law are "jurisdictional": They may be merely mandatory, which means they're waivable, or even if not waivable, failure to adhere to them may not render a judgment void. So when a law explicitly lays out jurisdictional requirements, those are things you cannot mess around with, period. (this, by the way, is why I'm so militant about the ARBPOL jurisdictional limits. even if it's a Wikipedia policy and has a measure of flexibility built in, words matter, and that exact policy has been used to deny access to ArbCom plenty of times before)
The main exception to this is the requirement under federal diversity jurisdiction, which is how things like state law claims are litigated in federal court. For diversity jurisdiction, there must be full diversity of state citizenship between the parties. So someone in California can't make a federal case out of an auto accident with someone else from California, but might be able to do so with someone from Nevada. There are a variety of other limitations on diversity jurisdiction as well, plus a number of prudential doctrines that would suggest kicking certain claims out of federal court, but that's not really what I'm talking about.
Personal jurisdiction is a bit different. Unlike SMJ, it is waivable, and as a result entering an appearance and arguing any aspect of the case (in some jurisdictions even arguing for dismissal on any grounds other than lack of personal jurisdiction) can make you subject to the jurisdiction of the court. Personal jurisdiction is generally automatic on parties that are residents in the forum (this is different than venue; generally speaking the forum is the state, even for federal court purposes), on people who were physically served in the forum, and on people who waive (even unintentionally) an objection to personal jurisdiction (which includes all plaintiffs, since filing a complaint involves submitting yourself to the jurisdiction of the court, even for purposes unrelated to the complaint). When dealing with out-of-state defendants it gets very complex, and I'm going to eschew explaining this in great detail. Suffice it to say that in most cases, personal jurisdiction on an out-of-state defendant will depend on the existence of "minimum contacts" between the defendant and the forum state. As an example, an out-of-state defendant driving a car on the highways in a state, getting in an accident, and then leaving the state will be subject to the jurisdiction of the state where the accident took place.

Generally speaking, in modern practice, if a foreign business is sued it's going to fight the case rather than ignore it, since you can object to personal jurisdiction and then deal with a loss on those grounds on appeal. Much better to do that than get a default judgment against you and then have to collaterally attack it and hope the court where you do it agrees (this is what you used to have to do). As to jurisdiction and discovery sanctions, I really don't know how those work in practice. I expect the same personal jurisdiction analysis is present in some way, though there may be additional statutory barriers.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Smiley » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:36 am

This is my personal experience, though the principles are similar to other claims by companies for injurious trade practices: While some things are specific to a particular trade and not others like, say, the cost of litigation, some rules get drawn up in practice just the same. I have yet to encounter such a rule, though I can't find any examples in any of the court opinions here or anywhere else I know of.

When I am a resident, I know what kind of jurisdiction I might have against the owner of the property. At the same time, it's important that I know who the owners are that have the right to occupy it. In the absence of such information there's no way to know whether the jurisdiction of any one of them is appropriate (they are certainly not the real property owner in this case, but they do own it anyway).

I could point out here, for instance, that if you own and run a building you, in most states, could file a claim before all of your tenants could file claims at once, and have them come to a settlement. But that raises some legal problems, and makes it harder to see what kind of effect it might have.

Finally, there's the US Supreme Court issue with Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (see the post on the USMC on its Rules & Regulations page for details). The relevant section says, "A party shall give personal jurisdiction to any person, or persons who appear on behalf of him or her, without prejudice to any other privilege or immunities which that court in its discretion may have." What this means is that the US Court of Claims, if the USMC had a precedent, would have exclusive jurisdiction over any alleged non-meritorious claims by foreign interests against the US.

So what would an English default judgment really look like in practice? The first question I'll ask is how you'd judge whether a court could do anything about the underlying action. This can be tricky. For example, if someone tells me he's not responsible for an issue (say the theft of something from someone's car), I won't know whether the court's conclusion is correct or not. Even if you rule that he didn't commit the theft, we have to assume that he's not liable for that offense. (By the way, your personal criminal liability in the circumstances must be the same or higher than his personal criminal liability for the theft of the thing that he actually stole.) This means, as a practical matter, that while an English default judgment in an American court may....

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:38 am

Smiley wrote:This is my personal experience, though the principles are similar to other claims by companies for injurious trade practices: While some things are specific to a particular trade and not others like, say, the cost of litigation, some rules get drawn up in practice just the same. I have yet to encounter such a rule, though I can't find any examples in any of the court opinions here or anywhere else I know of.

When I am a resident, I know what kind of jurisdiction I might have against the owner of the property. At the same time, it's important that I know who the owners are that have the right to occupy it. In the absence of such information there's no way to know whether the jurisdiction of any one of them is appropriate (they are certainly not the real property owner in this case, but they do own it anyway).

I could point out here, for instance, that if you own and run a building you, in most states, could file a claim before all of your tenants could file claims at once, and have them come to a settlement. But that raises some legal problems, and makes it harder to see what kind of effect it might have.

Finally, there's the US Supreme Court issue with Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (see the post on the USMC on its Rules & Regulations page for details). The relevant section says, "A party shall give personal jurisdiction to any person, or persons who appear on behalf of him or her, without prejudice to any other privilege or immunities which that court in its discretion may have." What this means is that the US Court of Claims, if the USMC had a precedent, would have exclusive jurisdiction over any alleged non-meritorious claims by foreign interests against the US.

So what would an English default judgment really look like in practice? The first question I'll ask is how you'd judge whether a court could do anything about the underlying action. This can be tricky. For example, if someone tells me he's not responsible for an issue (say the theft of something from someone's car), I won't know whether the court's conclusion is correct or not. Even if you rule that he didn't commit the theft, we have to assume that he's not liable for that offense. (By the way, your personal criminal liability in the circumstances must be the same or higher than his personal criminal liability for the theft of the thing that he actually stole.) This means, as a practical matter, that while an English default judgment in an American court may....
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:49 am

mendaliv wrote:
Poetlister wrote:And of course the US courts have no power over chapters outside the US
Eh it's more complicated than that.
Of course things always get more complicated in law. I was thinking of powers of enforcement. There was the famous case when images from the British National Portrait Gallery were uploaded to Commons in breach of English (and international) copyright law. the Gallery could not get judgment in its favour because the Commons servers are in Florida.
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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:52 am

You can find out more here:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011 ... cable-hack

and here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/j ... er-science

I am aware of the case of Edward Snowden. The case involved a breach of copyright. This was a very, very severe breach of law. And the government sought to punish him for his crime. It was decided that because Snowden has chosen to speak freely he can be sued. In practice he chose to speak to journalists, because he knew journalists will never give a statement. For freedom of speech, there are some things you do not say to journalists. For example, to protect press freedom journalists are not permitted to give out their sources. It looks like the Government's reasoning is that you can't talk about sources because they'll get arrested, which I do not agree with. It does make sense that journalists

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:58 pm

Poetlister wrote:
mendaliv wrote:
Poetlister wrote:And of course the US courts have no power over chapters outside the US
Eh it's more complicated than that.
Of course things always get more complicated in law. I was thinking of powers of enforcement. There was the famous case when images from the British National Portrait Gallery were uploaded to Commons in breach of English (and international) copyright law. the Gallery could not get judgment in its favour because the Commons servers are in Florida.
From what I've read that case was never actually litigated.

One thing WMF would have in its favor by being overseas is the possibility of a forum non conveniens (T-H-L) dismissal—meaning that even though jurisdiction to adjudicate could be had in a forum, there are prudential and comity reasons not to adjudicate it (and there's an adequate alternative forum available) and so the action would be dismissed. This was one of the alternative grounds for dismissal suggested in the Kiobel v. Royal Dutch Petroleum Co. (T-H-L) case, which involved what counsel for respondents called "foreign cubed cases": a foreign plaintiff suing a foreign defendant over actions alleged to have taken place in a foreign country.

Anyway when we're talking about jurisdiction to enforce, whether in terms of policing or collecting on judgments, the main way that's achieved with foreigners is by finding some assets they do have in the country and seizing them, either in satisfaction of the judgment or as a penalty for refusing to comply with an injunction. In the case of a company like WMF, you could, for example, seize transfers of funds to WMUK, or perhaps donations made from within the UK.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:52 pm

No more TRANSFORMER!
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