Lomax v. WikiMedia Foundation, Inc. et al

[Lyallpuri]

And yet again, I'm not talking about the case of Abd or other older men. Without Comfort's comment applies just as well to two young people marrying one another, and that is what I seek to correct.

I suspect you folks already know that, though, and are collectively pretending to be dense so as to be able to render any explanation of the Islamic perspective as seeming barbaric and uncouth; reductio ad absurdum, in other words.

[Poetlister]

He's right. My mother's American cousin legally married a Canadian girl in Pakistan when she was 17 (although she was 18 by the time of the actual wedding ceremony and rukhsati); she was fine with it. It helps speed up the immigration process so that the girl is able to come to the US by the time she's actually moving in with her husband. I'm not entirely sure where being Hanafi or of some other madhhab plays into it, though.

I read "purification" in this context as simply being a reference to the fact that being so much as stung by a thorn purifies us of our sins; imagine the implications in the case of a greater trial in life.

In Britain and many European countries, you can get married at 16 with parental consent. Of course, this relies on the parents being responsible.

[Lyallpuri]

Sure, but it's still considered problematic from a cultural perspective, and I really don't understand why. I wouldn't be surprised if changes were made to the law that made it practically impossible for Muslims to marry as minors.

Now, of course, as I've said before, it's true that the Pakistani population in particular in the UK is generally far poorer and less educated in background than in, for example, the US (with which I am far more familiar), and so the rate of forced marriages and the like is definitely higher there. (Interestingly, most cases of honour killings in Pakistani families in the West about which I've read involve parents hailing from Gujrat District in Punjab, which neighbours Mirpur District in AJK, the origin of 60 to 85 percent of the UK's Pakistani population). That, however, doesn't justify going to the opposite extreme and restricting marriage entirely where the two people involved would otherwise be both legally and culturally (from a Western perspective) able to conduct a relationship outside of it.

[Vigilant]

Abd has been arguing on reddit that in certain cases, it is perfectly fine for older men to marry prepubescent girls.

He goes on at length that if parents' agree and it is not forbidden explicitly in the Quran that sex with girls that have been married but who have yet to menstruate can be allowed.

He's a short eyes piece of shit.

[AndyTheGrump]

Other pieces of shit seem to have found ample 'justifications' for such things, without recourse to holy books. One can argue the relative merits of an Abrahamic religion where at least in theory, expected rules of behaviour are laid down (Islam) versus ones where the original sources have been selected, reinterpreted and retranslated so many times that anyone can do anything, and quote chapter and verse to back it up (Christianity), but to atheist outsiders like me, it seems a rather pointless debate. Shits will be shits, and they will use whatever tools they have available to do so - including making more shit up using religious texts, if it suits them. Hold them responsible for what they say and do, not for the selectively-picked quotations they use to excuse it.

[Poetlister]

You can only go so far with what is in the Bible or kindred works, or what people imagine is in them. There is an opinion that Rebecca was only three when she married Isaac, but I've never heard of that used as a justification for anything improper.

[Beeblebrox]

Many years ago I had a young co-worker who was terrified because his girlfriend's father did not care for him, and he was just about to turn 18, while his girlfriend would not be 18 for another six months or so. He was afraid the father would try to get him arrested for rape if they did anything during that six-month period, things that would be perfectly legal before and after, but not during that period. That's just stupid.

Reasonable people can be supportive of progressive laws that actively consider age difference to determine what constitutes legal consent, which is a whole other thing from trying to justify grown men raping little girls, married or not.

[SeriousSam]

Lomax updated his blog post on Larson in June.

http://coldfusioncommunity.net/associat ... ad-actors/

June 14, 2021 NOTE: After this was written, Larson was arrested in connection with transporting a 12-year old girl interstate without parental permission. What I wrote was true to the best of my knowledge and belief when it was written. As to the recent events, I know little if anything more than what is in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_ ... olitician)

Again to remind readers what he wrote in the original:

What Leucosticte has done is to take a strong libertarian stance, not terribly uncommon, but what is unusual is his eagerness to stand for the rights of pedophiles (or children, for that matter, do they have a right to consent to sex or to engage in sexual activity . . . and how is this defined?), by offering himself as a sacrifice. He became sensitive to pedophilia as an inmate in federal prison, interviewing pedophiles and later telling their story. But he is not a pedophile. His sexual preferences are normal, not specially-young women. Since all this came down, he married twice, and the “bad news” mentioned on meta was probably the suicide of his wife, who had left him, bore a child, and then killed herself. He married again and I know little about that marriage, except it ended. He was denied custody of the child in Colorado, probably because of all the pedophilia accusations which, of course have “evidentiary support,” he clearly intended to make it look like he could be a pedophile.

The bottom section of the blog post is a bizarre and creepy defence of Michael Coombs / Mikemikev's sexual attraction to 15 year olds (despite being a bloke in his 40s)

[Moral Hazard]

Other pieces of shit seem to have found ample 'justifications' for such things, without recourse to holy books. One can argue the relative merits of an Abrahamic religion where at least in theory, expected rules of behaviour are laid down (Islam) versus ones where the original sources have been selected, reinterpreted and retranslated so many times that anyone can do anything, and quote chapter and verse to back it up (Christianity), but to atheist outsiders like me, it seems a rather pointless debate. Shits will be shits, and they will use whatever tools they have available to do so - including making more shit up using religious texts, if it suits them. Hold them responsible for what they say and do, not for the selectively-picked quotations they use to excuse it.

Fatuously even handed.

Islam does celebrate the MD having married an 8 year old (and having waited a couple years to consummate it). Anybody criticizing/insulting the prophet gets threatened with death or ostracism.

Sending girls to the home country to marry a cousin with most of his teeth in tact does not seem consistent with Swedish feminism.

[AndyTheGrump]

Other pieces of shit seem to have found ample 'justifications' for such things, without recourse to holy books. One can argue the relative merits of an Abrahamic religion where at least in theory, expected rules of behaviour are laid down (Islam) versus ones where the original sources have been selected, reinterpreted and retranslated so many times that anyone can do anything, and quote chapter and verse to back it up (Christianity), but to atheist outsiders like me, it seems a rather pointless debate. Shits will be shits, and they will use whatever tools they have available to do so - including making more shit up using religious texts, if it suits them. Hold them responsible for what they say and do, not for the selectively-picked quotations they use to excuse it.

Fatuously even handed.

Islam does celebrate the MD having married an 8 year old (and having waited a couple years to consummate it). Anybody criticizing/insulting the prophet gets threatened with death or ostracism.

Sending girls to the home country to marry a cousin with most of his teeth in tact does not seem consistent with Swedish feminism.

Oh look, someone's been reading the pop-up book of clichés about Islam. And failed to notice that the same comments can be (and have been) aimed at followers of all the other Abrahamic religions, for all the same reasons. All are social constructs. All have been, and will be, used to justify all sorts of behaviour. Any objective analysis starts with observing what they have in common, rather than trying to sort them on a scale of 'good' vs 'evil'.

And that is all I have to say to you, since you clearly lack the capacity for rational debate on this subject.

[Poetlister]

And failed to notice that the same comments can be (and have been) aimed at followers of all the other Abrahamic religions, for all the same reasons.

I don't think that's true. Look in any Jewish prayer book: "Five years is the age for the study of Scripture. Ten, for the study of Mishnah. Thirteen, for the obligation to observe the mitzvot. Fifteen, for the study of Talmud. Eighteen, for marriage."

[Zoloft]

And failed to notice that the same comments can be (and have been) aimed at followers of all the other Abrahamic religions, for all the same reasons.

I don't think that's true. Look in any Jewish prayer book: "Five years is the age for the study of Scripture. Ten, for the study of Mishnah. Thirteen, for the obligation to observe the mitzvot. Fifteen, for the study of Talmud. Eighteen, for marriage."

You've not heard of some Orthodox communities with child brides? It's been a running scandal for decades.

[Vigilant]

And failed to notice that the same comments can be (and have been) aimed at followers of all the other Abrahamic religions, for all the same reasons.

I don't think that's true. Look in any Jewish prayer book: "Five years is the age for the study of Scripture. Ten, for the study of Mishnah. Thirteen, for the obligation to observe the mitzvot. Fifteen, for the study of Talmud. Eighteen, for marriage."

You've not heard of some Orthodox communities with child brides? It's been a running scandal for decades.

He's been a child rapist apologist for years.

[Moral Hazard]

Other pieces of shit seem to have found ample 'justifications' for such things, without recourse to holy books. One can argue the relative merits of an Abrahamic religion where at least in theory, expected rules of behaviour are laid down (Islam) versus ones where the original sources have been selected, reinterpreted and retranslated so many times that anyone can do anything, and quote chapter and verse to back it up (Christianity), but to atheist outsiders like me, it seems a rather pointless debate. Shits will be shits, and they will use whatever tools they have available to do so - including making more shit up using religious texts, if it suits them. Hold them responsible for what they say and do, not for the selectively-picked quotations they use to excuse it.

Fatuously even handed.

Islam does celebrate the MD having married an 8 year old (and having waited a couple years to consummate it). Anybody criticizing/insulting the prophet gets threatened with death or ostracism.

Sending girls to the home country to marry a cousin with most of his teeth in tact does not seem consistent with Swedish feminism.

the same comments can be (and have been) aimed at followers of all the other Abrahamic religions, for all the same reasons. All are social constructs. All have been, and will be, used to justify all sorts of behaviour. Any objective analysis starts with observing what they have in common, rather than trying to sort them on a scale of 'good' vs 'evil'.

The distribution matters, not just the support of the distribution, and the distributions of behaviors are causally linked to religious beliefs.

It matters whether the desire to criminalize homosexuality is limited the the Westboro Baptist Church (if that is a thing) l or5 50 % of the population (as among UK Muslims).

Do you have any data to suggest that at child-brides are remotely comparable in among Muslims and Jews and Christians?

(Some Southern states allow child marriage to reduce the incentives for abortion.)

[Dysklyver]

(Some Southern states allow child marriage to reduce the incentives for abortion.)

Just to add more fuel to the burning dumpster fire this thread is, I note that according to Child marriage in the United States (T-H-L), only 6 US states actually ban child marriage, it's legal in all the other states to various degrees.

Curiously even Iran has better laws on child marriage than 18 US states, which is amusing to me given the fact that certain posters here are rattling on about Islam, is if that particular religion is much more supportive of pedophiles than the religion which defended the Roy Moore sexual misconduct allegations (T-H-L), covered up the Catholic Church sexual abuse cases (T-H-L), and let's hundreds of thousands of children get married in it's churches every year...

Not to put a fine point on it, every large institution is up to their necks in this crap, and you are wasting your time arguing about whose religion is worst.

[Zoloft]

(Some Southern states allow child marriage to reduce the incentives for abortion.)

Just to add more fuel to the burning dumpster fire this thread is, I note that according to Child marriage in the United States (T-H-L), only 6 US states actually ban child marriage, it's legal in all the other states to various degrees.

Curiously even Iran has better laws on child marriage than 18 US states, which is amusing to me given the fact that certain posters here are rattling on about Islam, is if that particular religion is much more supportive of pedophiles than the religion which defended the Roy Moore sexual misconduct allegations (T-H-L), covered up the Catholic Church sexual abuse cases (T-H-L), and let's hundreds of thousands of children get married in it's churches every year...

Not to put a fine point on it, every large institution is up to their necks in this crap, and you are wasting your time arguing about whose religion is worst.

I'm not arguing about which religion is worst. They all encourage this crap.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

I'm reminded of the quote from Steven Weinberg: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

[Moral Hazard]

(Some Southern states allow child marriage to reduce the incentives for abortion.)

Just to add more fuel to the burning dumpster fire this thread is, I note that according to Child marriage in the United States (T-H-L), only 6 US states actually ban child marriage, it's legal in all the other states to various degrees.

Curiously even Iran has better laws on child marriage than 18 US states, which is amusing to me given the fact that certain posters here are rattling on about Islam, is if that particular religion is much more supportive of pedophiles than the religion which defended the Roy Moore sexual misconduct allegations (T-H-L), covered up the Catholic Church sexual abuse cases (T-H-L), and let's hundreds of thousands of children get married in it's churches every year...

Not to put a fine point on it, every large institution is up to their necks in this crap, and you are wasting your time arguing about whose religion is worst.

Again, that is not what I am arguing, although you and Andy allege I am.
I am saying that the empirical probability distributions differ, and that they differ because of MD's behavior and the lethal bans on criticizing MD.
(Perhaps people have forgotten the evidence of their eyes and ears when Cat Stevens explained that Salman Rushdie had to die live on UK tv?)

[AndyTheGrump]

I'm reminded of the quote from Steven Weinberg: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

To which it should probably be added that one of the best ways to get people to do evil things is to persuade them that they hold the monopoly in 'good religion', and that all other religions are 'evil'. 'Other religions' being open to interpretation as necessary, even over the most minor elements of doctrine.

I'd have to suggest that Weinburg's premise is questionable though. Good people have been persuaded to do evil things far too often even without the involvement of religion: patriotism makes for a thoroughly effective substitute.

[Moral Hazard]

Islam does celebrate the MD having married an 8 year old (and having waited a couple years to consummate it). Anybody criticizing/insulting the prophet gets threatened with death or ostracism.

Andy,

Are you claiming that mainstream Muslims have denounced the horrific passages in the Quran, specifically MD's rapes and marriage to an 8 year old?

Really?

[AndyTheGrump]

I'd be very surprised if Muslims were denouncing passages from the Quran that don't exist.

As to how old Ayesha was at the time of her marriage to Muhammad, it appears to be a matter of some debate, with modern historical scholarship, as opposed to hadith, suggesting that she could very well have been 18 at the time.

I could no doubt point to much historical evidence suggesting that such marriages were in any case hardly unusual for the period, either in the Arab world or elsewhere. Many centuries later, for example, European royalty seems to have considered marrying off prepubescent daughters to be not merely acceptable, but best practice. They might well have considered Muhammad's other marriages - to women older than himself, and widows, to be less than proper though.

This is all rather beside the point I was originally trying to make, though. One can cherry-pick 'evidence' to prove all sorts of things if one is only concerned with confirming prior prejudice, and isn't overly-concerned with what exactly it is one is trying to prove. Is this a 'Islam is evil and always has been' debate, or a 'Islam is evil now, and has been since the western world (or parts of it) has changed its mind over things it used to believe' one? And are we allowed to take into consideration events that took place after the death of Muhammad in 632 CE but before the Stonewall riots in 1969? Because if we are, I can make a darned good case for Christianity out-evilling Islam over much of the period. Plenty of cherries to be picked there....

[Vigilant]

The reason I brought this up at all is because Abd Lomax is trying to use the Quran to justify his own predilections.

If he were an evangelical christian, the book he'd use to justify his beliefs would differ and not much else.

Abd's been involved with pedophiles and pedophilia defense/apologetics for decades.

When he finally dies, nothing of value will have been lost.

[Moral Hazard]

I'd be very surprised if Muslims were denouncing passages from the Quran that don't exist.

As to how old Ayesha was at the time of her marriage to Muhammad, it appears to be a matter of some debate, with modern historical scholarship, as opposed to hadith, suggesting that she could very well have been 18 at the time.

I don't think you make such excuses for child exploitation in other cults.

Where did the rape gangs in the UK get the idea that it was okay to rape infidel girls, many of whom reported being systematically insulted as infidels or Christians during the raping?
Rochdale child sex abuse ring (T-H-L)
Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal (T-H-L)

[AndyTheGrump]

This is Wikipediocracy, not Stormfront. I suggest you fuck off there, since you will clearly feel at home.

[Lyallpuri]

I'm sure the retort will be to remind us that Islam isn't a race and therefore MH couldn't possibly be bigoted. It's not as though this script hasn't been seen in action before.

[AndyTheGrump]

I'm sure the retort will be to remind us that Islam isn't a race and therefore MH couldn't possibly be bigoted. It's not as though this script hasn't been seen in action before.

Bigotry extends way beyond race, though it is rather hard to read Moral Hazard's posts without at least a suspicion that race might have something to do with it.

[Vigilant]

Mods: Cleanup on aisle 3.

[Moral Hazard]

This is Wikipediocracy, not Stormfront. I suggest you fuck off there, since you will clearly feel at home.

Name call all you want.
I am not the one apologizing for child exploitation or acquiescing to posts apologizing for child marriages.

[AndyTheGrump]

What a pathetic, lying, specimen of clueless bigotry you really are. If you said any of that to my face, you'd be picking your teeth up from the floor.

[Zoloft]

You can be bigoted towards members of a religion. I've had the DoD diversity training.

Bigotry towards a religion is intolerance.

Bigotry towards a race is racism.

It's all still bigotry.

[Moral Hazard]

Define "religion", Zoloft.

Is DoD diversity training the new super-soldier serum?

Aren't you bigoted against active members of the Westboro Baptist Church (T-H-L)?
Or do you take a consistent stands against hatred and abuse, regardless of the source?
The latter is what I try to do.

I stand with my friends who defy mobs and intimidation and stand up for the Enlightenment.

I care more about name calling from 4 year olds at playgrounds than I do your fatuous insults and Andy's pathetic threats.

[Zoloft]

Define "religion", Zoloft.

Is DoD diversity training the new super-soldier serum?

Aren't you bigoted against active members of the Westboro Baptist Church (T-H-L)?
Or do you take a consistent stands against hatred and abuse, regardless of the source?
The latter is what I try to do.

I stand with my friends who defy mobs and intimidation and stand up for the Enlightenment.

I care more about name calling from 4 year olds at playgrounds than I do your fatuous insults and Andy's pathetic threats.

Wasn't talking to you. I was clarifying the use of words. I cited my training to let folks know where I heard that definition. I'm going to ignore your post because you misunderstood me.

[Zoloft]

This topic is out of hand.



I'd advise the folks who posted within and insulted other members here to take a moment for self-reflection.