Bitcoin goes down, down, down

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Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:16 am

The value of Bitcoin started plummeting yesterday, after peaking at about $1200 three days ago. Because China's central bank now refuses to treat Bitcoins as "money".

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... 1276.story
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/0 ... 00392.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ^headlines
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-1 ... ing-drop-1

The old fart Randroid speaketh:
“It has to have intrinsic value,” Greenspan said in a Bloomberg Television interview in Washington on Dec. 4. “You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.”
The r/bitcoin area on Reddit is on fire.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment ... yesterday/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment ... _thoughts/

As one guy said in that thread:
That's just how the internet works. It's unfortunate but, when you divide people categorically and take into consideration the rational self interest of human nature, and give it anonymity, you end up with forums / subreddits where a "fanboyish" / almost religious following develops. I've been on the internet a long time and I've seen it happen on hundreds of forums. The minute one person comes forward with anything negative about the cult from which the following was born, prepare to get shit on and flamed. Hard. It's just the way it is.
Metafilter takes a less positive view, with quite a few of them complaining about the manic way Redditors attack any Bitcoin critics.
http://www.metafilter.com/134528/Sell-Mortimer-Sell

Bitcoin, Reddit, Wikipedia, Facebook: what's the difference? It's all "digital heroin".

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by cyofee » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:46 pm

This can't be happening - Ron Paul said bitcoins could destroy the dollar just 4 days ago!
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:10 pm

EricBarbour wrote:The old fart Randroid speaketh:
“It has to have intrinsic value,” Greenspan said in a Bloomberg Television interview in Washington on Dec. 4. “You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.”
Come off it! Greenspan is a Keynesian.
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:00 pm

It's probably a bad idea to write the epitaph for Bitcoins now, based on what happens in the Chinese markets - I might sound like a Randroid myself for saying this, but those markets are still not really "free" in the Western sense due to the fact that the Chinese government itself is ultimately the primary investor in almost any business whose shares are traded in those markets. (At least that's how I understand it.)

So, this story could just as easily be read as "China's failure to make an official determination on Bitcoins (at least until now) led to excessive speculation, inflated valuation, and lots of people ultimately losing real money." In other words, some folks in China, who probably had money to burn anyway, took a gamble on Bitcoins and lost - because the Chinese government wasn't willing to risk the instability that might have ensued from having people trading in something over which they had little or no control.

On Wall Street, at least back in the days when it was properly regulated, they might have called this a "correction." These days we call it the inevitable result of a Bitcoin "bubble," or just "bubblenomics." IMO the problem is that nobody really knows what the "sane, rational" value of a Bitcoin should be, and there's no way to stabilize it because it isn't really based on anything that's already stable. But that doesn't mean the whole thing is going away, at least not in the near term.

It's an interesting phenomenon, but (disclaimer) it's not my area of expertise, so what do I know.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:18 pm

Poetlister wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:The old fart Randroid speaketh:
“It has to have intrinsic value,” Greenspan said in a Bloomberg Television interview in Washington on Dec. 4. “You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.”
Come off it! Greenspan is a Keynesian.
"We are all Keynesians now (T-H-L)." —M. Friedman, 1965

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:21 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:It's probably a bad idea to write the epitaph for Bitcoins now, based on what happens in the Chinese markets - I might sound like a Randroid myself for saying this, but those markets are still not really "free" in the Western sense due to the fact that the Chinese government itself is ultimately the primary investor in almost any business whose shares are traded in those markets. (At least that's how I understand it.)

So, this story could just as easily be read as "China's failure to make an official determination on Bitcoins (at least until now) led to excessive speculation, inflated valuation, and lots of people ultimately losing real money." In other words, some folks in China, who probably had money to burn anyway, took a gamble on Bitcoins and lost - because the Chinese government wasn't willing to risk the instability that might have ensued from having people trading in something over which they had little or no control.

On Wall Street, at least back in the days when it was properly regulated, they might have called this a "correction." These days we call it the inevitable result of a Bitcoin "bubble," or just "bubblenomics." IMO the problem is that nobody really knows what the "sane, rational" value of a Bitcoin should be, and there's no way to stabilize it because it isn't really based on anything that's already stable. But that doesn't mean the whole thing is going away, at least not in the near term.

It's an interesting phenomenon, but (disclaimer) it's not my area of expertise, so what do I know.
Ponzi Pointz™ will continue to have value as long as some dumbasses will sell stuff to other dumbasses and accept them for payment or until the American government puts the scam out of business, whichever comes first.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Mason » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:59 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:Ponzi Pointz™ will continue to have value as long as some dumbasses will sell stuff to other dumbasses and accept them for payment or until the American government puts the scam out of business, whichever comes first.
At first, I was fairly confident the American government would target bitcoins, due to (A) their alleged anonymity and (B) the fact that the interests likely to be hurt by consumers and businesses moving away from traditional banking, credit card fees, etc., have serious clout in Washington, but I'm starting to reconsider in light of the fact that the feds almost certainly are capable of tracking the movement of bitcoins. (Likely with Google's enthusiastic help.) If the NSA at el can infiltrate the exchanges, tumblers and what have you as well (and there's no reason to assume they haven't or won't) they're probably perfectly content for it to exist.

But who knows.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:29 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:Ponzi Pointz™ will continue to have value as long as some dumbasses will sell stuff to other dumbasses and accept them for payment or until the American government puts the scam out of business, whichever comes first.
If anyone deserves to have a 50-foot statue on Wall Street, it's Charles Ponzi. Because he's the "pure capitalist". They should be worshipping a con artist, since at the bottom level of "high finance", they are all con artists. Just more cowardly and sneaky than Ponzi was.
but I'm starting to reconsider in light of the fact that the feds almost certainly are capable of tracking the movement of bitcoins. (Likely with Google's enthusiastic help.)
Possible but doubtful. The NSA can't even find actual terrorists, despite terrorism being the alleged focus of their efforts. And Google doesn't lift a collective finger unless big money is waved in their faces.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Cedric » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:41 pm

Poetlister wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:The old fart Randroid speaketh:
“It has to have intrinsic value,” Greenspan said in a Bloomberg Television interview in Washington on Dec. 4. “You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.”
Come off it! Greenspan is a Keynesian.
*sigh* Google is your friend.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:13 pm

Cedric wrote:
Poetlister wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:The old fart Randroid speaketh:
“It has to have intrinsic value,” Greenspan said in a Bloomberg Television interview in Washington on Dec. 4. “You have to really stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven’t been able to do it. Maybe somebody else can.”
Come off it! Greenspan is a Keynesian.
*sigh* Google is your friend.
Indeed it is. "his famous friendship, from the 1950s on, with the late Objectivist philosopher Ayn Rand. He says that Rand didn't influence him politically".

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 0796324772

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:30 am

Image

Sorry Eric, this may be just hype for a headline. THE PURPOSE of bitcoin is to say 'Screw you guys' to the governments of the world. Hence, it can't be anything other than a headline for a trashy tabloid. A tiny insignificant Chinese bank decided to treat it as a commodity rather than currency for their own transactions. This has exactly the same effect as you at home setting fire to your own currency in the hope that it can cause an effect on the money market. It's meaningless.

Bitcoin is not just a commodity, it's a gamechanging means of payment. Not just for criminals, but it also allows payments to be made in the hundred and something countries that paypal doesn't like and won't goto. When visa and mastercard and all the banks say screw human rights, we are closing wikileaks accounts because killing innocent people = money. Exposing the truth = the public gets a distaste for all the killing going on. So Visa mastercard paypal all say you can't email money to wikileaks, and the banks can say so too, there is sweet Fart all they can do about bitcoin. That's one famous use of it. But it's still evolving. Being able to fund a child's education in a foreign land becomes possible where it was difficult and expensive before. As a payment system bitcoin is now killing western union, go look up western unions fees over the last year or so, and look up their share price and it's futures trading. Western union is now screwed because of bitcoin.

Nice link to Max Keiser, he's smart and funny, and he sure as hell can predit the financial future. Time and time and time again he has been spot on.

It's a good idea to know what is going on in the world, and crypto currencies are something you'll need to learn about, I recommend you all stop reading tabloids and study what it is and how it works.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:09 am

Pen wrote:As a payment system bitcoin is now killing western union, go look up western unions fees over the last year or so, and look up their share price and it's futures trading. Western union is now screwed because of bitcoin.
Most of what you've written above is probably very close to the mark, but Western Union's reduced income is mostly due to online banking and cheap bank-to-bank wire transfers (including international transfers), not to mention the ever-increasing ubiquity of ATMs and credit cards that are all on international networks. There are just more options out there these days, and all of it has exploded now that pretty much everyone has a smartphone. Bitcoin is contributing to it as well, but it's hardly their biggest/main problem.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by DanMurphy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:14 am

As a payment system bitcoin is now killing western union, go look up western unions fees over the last year or so, and look up their share price and it's futures trading. Western union is now screwed because of bitcoin.
Western Union's stock is up 30% in the past year, solidly out-performing both the Dow and S&P which have soared to records.

Anyone who thinks bitcoin is having any impact on WU's business at this point quite frankly doesn't know what they're talking about, and is unlikely to have spent much time in poorer countries - or really away from their computer keyboard.

I'm sure the company is worried about being displaced by new forms of cheaper payment systems. But you're frankly an egghead if you think a virtual currency is going to displace the lines of people in Nyala and Manila and Kandahar and Guanajuato and Ambon City and Chennai and etc etc lining up to get actual money that they can spend on real things in their lives any time soon.

It sure is nice to know what's going on in the world.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:38 am

Midsize Jake wrote:[..] but Western Union's reduced income is mostly due to online banking and cheap bank-to-bank wire transfers (including international transfers), not to mention the ever-increasing ubiquity of ATMs and credit cards that are all on international networks. There are just more options out there these days, and all of it has exploded now that pretty much everyone has a smartphone. Bitcoin is contributing to it as well, but it's hardly their biggest/main problem.
Once you solidly put an axe into the skull of a monopoly, it can stumble about as it pleases. Sure, it will not end or eliminate any other form of payment, but finally anyone, anyone, can be their own banker in ways that simply were impossible before. Before, you were forced into commercial means to transfer, you had no choice but to goto a bank or so forth. Now, with the ability to meaningfully tell them all stuff you, it does change the market.

It's akin to the windows Vs Linux thing. They don't kill each other, but naive people will always spend money, one born every minute will keep microsoft alive for years, and people will always be able to choose actual software that actually works, for free, instead of buying whatever the compaines sell.

Western union is like internet explorer, it's rooted, the writing is on the wall. I have no idea if they still actually make IE, it's so been sick and dying forever.

Bitcoin is darn hard to use, and new, but a fad or a trend it is not, not by any means. It's like linux. Huff and puff all you want Microsoft, there is nothing at all that you can do about it. Oh, but they'll give you headlines for a while, why not ? Bitcoin doomed, bitcoin this, bitcoin fathered my alien baby, whatever, but it will not go anywhere, ever. Stuff the banks. Hey, I don't have a bitcoin, or a wallet, but I think people who are the same should go buy merchandise and take it if they visit the bank, just to piss em off :angry:

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:49 am

Image

Image

Image

I have no idea what the 200 day average thingy is, who cares, not me, WU is out. Bitcoin is IN. Hey, I know fashion for those that know who is in the know.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:53 am

DanMurphy wrote:Western Union's stock is [...] solidly out-performing both the Dow and S&P which have soared to records.

Well, I have no idea what is going on in the financial world, except where the smart-arse money is. Maybe WU is looking so darn finger-lickin good because the US economy is crashing so very much faster than WU's stocks.

:popcorn: The US financial system is a source of endless amusement at the moment. The idea of investing in the US is oh gawd, can I sell you a slightly used visual editor ? hardly used, going cheap...

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:02 am

Bitcoin is not a competitor to Western Union, at least not until 7-11 starts selling and redeeming Bitcoin transactions. WU's biggest problem will continue to be the increasing resistance to accepting it: I'm sure that when EBay forced its sellers to stop accepting physical payments, it hurt WU a lot. Bitcoin, on the other hand, will for normal people be a solution to a problem they don't have, but at the moment all one has to do is look at the graphs and see that it is (or was) in a state of severe bubble. It's likely only a matter of time before it joins the tulip bulb in the annals of speculatory schemes.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:16 am

Ming wrote:Bitcoin is not a competitor to Western Union, at least not until 7-11 starts selling and redeeming Bitcoin transactions.
Step into my office, take a seat, let me take your coat, would you like a slurpee ?? How about a pie ? :XD

The place where you sit to do your business and/or the POS (point of sale) are the places that bitcoin has to penetrate, and it's darn hard to use at the moment, I agree with you there. But how can it NOT be a competitor ? it does the job of sending money one-way overseas with the added advantage that you don't have to spend time money and petrol going to 7-11 or anywhere else.

As far as I can see, bitcoin is setting the tune and telling western union what to do, as evidenced by western union cutting it's fees. BT and WU have overlapping roles, bitcoin has trivial or less in the way of fees, western union has always taken as much out of your pocket as they could get away with and are now gouging less, because they CAN gouge less and yet remain in business, proving they were gouging. Plus, bitcoin is a stored investment and a bit of a lottery as well. At least in the past it was a lottery. If you had just 500 dollars in bitcoin two years ago, you could sell them for over half a million dollars today.
Ming wrote:[...] all one has to do is look at the graphs and see that it is (or was) in a state of severe bubble.
I disagree there, yes, it is and has been volatile, however, it should settle about a grand or so in the long term. Lots of ups and downs, but a thousand should be ok for it. The big advantage is that when regular dollars crash and burn, bitcoin goes UP. Cyprus proved that. In a crisis, what would you rather own, bitcoin or dollars ? For me, bitcoin every single time. Every time.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by DanMurphy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:38 pm

My God. You're ignorant enough you believe that Bitcoin's "market capitalization" means it's beating western union in the business of transferring a tangible thing (cash). You're ignorant enough to believe it has a "market capitalization."

And you just tried to use a stock chart that ends in Jan. 2013 to argue that Western Union's shares have fallen "in the past year." You've made yourself very hard to take seriously ever again. You're impervious to reality.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Pen wrote:
Ming wrote:Bitcoin is not a competitor to Western Union, at least not until 7-11 starts selling and redeeming Bitcoin transactions.
The place where you sit to do your business and/or the POS (point of sale) are the places that bitcoin has to penetrate, and it's darn hard to use at the moment, I agree with you there. But how can it NOT be a competitor ? it does the job of sending money one-way overseas with the added advantage that you don't have to spend time money and petrol going to 7-11 or anywhere else.
Because WU does something that Bitcoin doesn't now do and most likely never will: it converts cash into payment forms to be sent to people who don't take cash. This is part of the reason WU can "gouge" people: those who don't have bank accounts are generally an underclass and don't have the financial or social wherewithal to push back against "gouging". But I see no evidence that Bitcoin is interested in this business; it's target market is insufficiently cautious get-rich-quick techno-nerds, and those people as a rule already have bank accounts.
Ming wrote:[...] all one has to do is look at the graphs and see that it is (or was) in a state of severe bubble.
Pen wrote:I disagree there, yes, it is and has been volatile, however, it should settle about a grand or so in the long term. Lots of ups and downs, but a thousand should be ok for it. The big advantage is that when regular dollars crash and burn, bitcoin goes UP. Cyprus proved that. In a crisis, what would you rather own, bitcoin or dollars ? For me, bitcoin every single time. Every time.
There's no particular reason why it should settle at any given level, and very good reasons why it can go right back down to zero. The exponential growth curve is characteristic of speculation, and it's obvious to anyone who has paid any attention to bubble behavior that Bitcoin is susceptible to it.
Last edited by Zoloft on Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:27 pm

DanMurphy wrote:My God. You're ignorant enough you believe that Bitcoin's "market capitalization" means it's beating western union in the business of transferring a tangible thing (cash). You're ignorant enough to believe it has a "market capitalization."
Don't bother with whatever I googled first, have a look yourself. Read up about it. Research for goodness sake. If you follow any tabloid headline as 'advice', ..... well... don't be blaming me for what happens.
And you just tried to use a stock chart that ends in Jan. 2013 to argue that Western Union's shares have fallen "in the past year."
I can't possibly be expected to care if it's the calendar year or the financial year when I don't even bother to have calendar. It's splitting straws.
You've made yourself very hard to take seriously ever again.
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by DanMurphy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:28 pm

plonk

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:44 pm

Ming wrote: it's target market is insufficiently cautious get-rich-quick techno-nerds, and those people as a rule already have bank accounts.
Well, those who two years ago created 100 bitcoins, worth about $100 then, are rollin in it now. Nice luxury car time. But there is no target market, it is not a product. There are interested parties, not consumers. Smart money got in at the start. Now, well, it's just a very useful item.
There's no particular reason why it should settle at any given level, and very good reasons why it can go right back down to zero.
There are ALWAYS calculations that can be done to predict it's range. Depends how much time and research is spent working it out.

As for it going down to zero, that's absolutely impossible. Impossible, always. So long as there are at least two computers left and two enthusiasts, there shall always be bitcoin. Thing is, if it 'lost it's value' as you're getting at, it is STILL a brilliant payment tool. It can lose it's 'storage' or 'investment' value, but you can still buy them, send them, sell them all in an hour for whatever the rate is, however low. (plus if it became too volatile to use minute to minute, then it's got it's speculation value back.)

The US dollar on the other hand can actually be made worthless, that has often been the case, that there is no longer value beyond the paper itself as a collectors item.
The exponential growth curve is characteristic of speculation, and it's obvious to anyone who has paid any attention to bubble behavior that Bitcoin is susceptible to it
That is one theory, one conclusion people can look at the graph and say. Another is that bitcoin could not be worth any actual money at the moment that it 'went live', out of the guy's head and onto the internet. It must take on value, and so it must go from exactly zero to somewhere. That somewhere IS somewhere. It's finding it. I wouldn't call that a 'bubble'. Now the US government bonds on the other hand....

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:54 pm

You need to read up on Tulip_mania (T-H-L)

Virtual currency *may* be coming. I can't imagine the existing bankster organizations will ignore it (co-opt or crush).
Bitcoin is just an oddity now.
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:04 pm

Vigilant wrote:Bitcoin is just an oddity now.
Well, to those who have studied, it's been a bigtime money spinner. To most, it's a mystery.

One point I'd like to make, is that, if bitcoin = tulips, then when it's all over, you'll still be able to go out and buy and sell tulips. After the fever has gone, the item remains, be it a nice flower, or a means of sending money. Regardless the rate, it will still exist.

Now I'd like to defy the Gods of how-many-images-can-be-in-a-thread with this lovely pic. It has a piggy in it.

Image

Oh, and and here is the site it comes from, seems to say just what I've been saying from the start. Hmm. Don't know if I'm comfortable with people agreeing with me, but I'll let it pass.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:09 pm

You're missing the point.
The chart showing bitcoin going asymptotic strongly suggests a bubble/mania.

I have yet to see anything to contradict this.
Your trumpeting to the skies that "bitcoin value surpasses WU value", during an bitcoin bubble/mania, leaves me pondering your ability to cogently discuss even slightly complicated issues.

YMMV.
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:52 pm

Vigilant wrote:You're missing the point.
The chart showing bitcoin going asymptotic strongly suggests a bubble/mania.
Image

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Mason » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:07 am

Pen wrote:I disagree there, yes, it is and has been volatile, however, it should settle about a grand or so in the long term.
Penyulap, do you actually own any bitcoins?

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Mancunium » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:25 am

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:27 am

Pen wrote: Well, those who two years ago created 100 bitcoins, worth about $100 then, are rollin in it now. Nice luxury car time.... Smart money got in at the start.
Spoken like a Ponzi disciple...

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:11 am

This can go round and round forever, but Ming is confident that the dollar isn't going to tank and that it's going to turn out that what value Bitcoin has now is bubble-sustained, and that it will collapse when enough speculators recover their "investment" in it by converting back to real money. The problem right now with US gov. bonds isn't that they are insecure; it's that they pay squat, so that anyone who doesn't need absolute security is practically better off keeping money in a jar. Inflation is something for Austrians to worry about, at least for now. It is of course possible that the 1970s will roll around again but betting on it happening is foolishness.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Hex » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:52 am

Ming wrote:WU does something that Bitcoin doesn't now do and most likely never will: it converts cash into payment forms to be sent to people who don't take cash.
Hmm? Buying Bitcoins with cash is relatively trivial (see LocalBitcoins.com). Or am I missing something you meant?
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:32 pm

Mason wrote:Penyulap, do you actually own any bitcoins?

send me one in email, and I'll then give you an accurate answer. :evilgrin: :B'

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:46 pm

Hex wrote:
Ming wrote:WU does something that Bitcoin doesn't now do and most likely never will: it converts cash into payment forms to be sent to people who don't take cash.
Hmm? Buying Bitcoins with cash is relatively trivial (see LocalBitcoins.com). Or am I missing something you meant?
Um, that's what they try to say but the page essentially says exactly the opposite. On-line, of course, doesn't count: but then I look at a random listing, and it tells me that to use actual cash I need to call this guy up and arrange a meeting at the local Starbucks. That, I submit, isn't a substitute for stopping by the service desk of the local Safeway.

I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:56 pm

Vigilant wrote:You're missing the point.
The chart showing bitcoin going asymptotic strongly suggests a bubble/mania.

I have yet to see anything to contradict this.
Your trumpeting to the skies that "bitcoin value surpasses WU value", during an bitcoin bubble/mania, leaves me pondering your ability to cogently discuss even slightly complicated issues.

YMMV.
Vigilant, the fact that very recently Bitcoin didn't exist at all must be taken into account. You can't come up with bubble this and bubble that on a chart that hasn't even frikkin started yet. Is it a game of slapjack ? Bitcoin starts and everyone yells 'bubble' ?

Look, you guys can call me crazy, (please do it with as much incredible flair as 'impervious to reality' I love that) you can all yell bubble, all say it's ponzi, seriously, you're not going to impress me with any of that crap because there are FACTS. There is actual reality, like the FACT that the Chinese Gov, or any Gov, cannot crush or destroy bitcoin. So gimme headlines saying they've banned it all day long and I'm like 'what-ev-errrr'. You can't HAVE a bubble before Bitcoin has even had the time to find it's actual value. Some people say it's about 12 or 13 hundred, whatever, about a grand. Wait till it gets like an actual pulse before you start shrieking heart attack. baby bitcoin was born yesterday, you have to hold your horsies before you call it gereatric. bubble is the wrong stick to beat it with.

In wacky-pedia just saying PONZI PONZI PONZI or BUBBLE BUBBLE BUBBLE works, but with me, it's like, those ideas are so old.

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When you first switch on a lightbulb, it is not strobing. It was just switched on. You can't have a bitcoin bubble until after bitcoin has fully entered the market. People are still working out how to use the darn things.
I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
people who sell stuff on ebay do stuff like that, for example, for pickup, some people want to meet at a shopping center. It's just simple don't mug me stuff. In the US, I can't imagine why that would be strange, they have more guns then people don't they ?

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:08 pm

Pen wrote:
I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
people who sell stuff on ebay do stuff like that, for example, for pickup, some people want to meet at a shopping center. It's just simple don't mug me stuff. In the US, I can't imagine why that would be strange, they have more guns then people don't they ?
You're missing the point. HE DOESN'T REDEEM IN CASH. If you don't have a bank account, you cannot do business with him.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Hex » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:09 pm

Ming wrote: Um, that's what they try to say but the page essentially says exactly the opposite. On-line, of course, doesn't count: but then I look at a random listing, and it tells me that to use actual cash I need to call this guy up and arrange a meeting at the local Starbucks. That, I submit, isn't a substitute for stopping by the service desk of the local Safeway.

I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
Point taken, it's still pretty inconvenient and random depending on where you are and who's available. Possible, but not even remotely as reliable or convenient as Western Union-type services.

Oh - those of you on Twitter (or even not) may enjoy @bitcoin_txt, which is someone sardonically tweeting the more ludicrous stuff they've heard people saying about it online.
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Zoloft » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:56 pm

We have a relatively new member of this forum, named killhamster, who may be the same as the 'killhamster' of buttcoin fame.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Cedric » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:18 pm

Ming wrote:
Pen wrote:
I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
people who sell stuff on ebay do stuff like that, for example, for pickup, some people want to meet at a shopping center. It's just simple don't mug me stuff. In the US, I can't imagine why that would be strange, they have more guns then people don't they ?
You're missing the point. HE DOESN'T REDEEM IN CASH. If you don't have a bank account, you cannot do business with him.
Forget it. He's on a roll. :rolleyes:

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Mancunium » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:40 pm

Cedric wrote:
Ming wrote:
Pen wrote:
I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
people who sell stuff on ebay do stuff like that, for example, for pickup, some people want to meet at a shopping center. It's just simple don't mug me stuff. In the US, I can't imagine why that would be strange, they have more guns then people don't they ?
You're missing the point. HE DOESN'T REDEEM IN CASH. If you don't have a bank account, you cannot do business with him.
Forget it. He's on a roll. :rolleyes:
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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:06 pm

Pen wrote:You can't come up with bubble this and bubble that on a chart that hasn't even frikkin started yet. Is it a game of slapjack ? Bitcoin starts and everyone yells 'bubble' ? <snip>... When you first switch on a lightbulb, it is not strobing. It was just switched on. You can't have a bitcoin bubble until after bitcoin has fully entered the market. People are still working out how to use the darn things.
I think I understand your point, so... just so we're clear on each other's terminology, how far would the value have to fall, and how long would it have to stay there, before you're willing to accept that the $1.5K valuation represented a "bubble"? Assuming it were to actually happen, of course.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but it strikes me that not knowing the ultimate stable value of something is actually the whole point of bubblenomics, or at least a prerequisite to forming a "bubble." It shouldn't matter so much how old or new the thing is. Still, in a modern financial context I suppose it's not really a bubble until it bursts, and given that most people don't see the recent price-drop as a "burst," I guess that's why I'm asking.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:22 am

Mancunium wrote:
Cedric wrote:
Ming wrote:
Pen wrote:
I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
people who sell stuff on ebay do stuff like that, for example, for pickup, some people want to meet at a shopping center. It's just simple don't mug me stuff. In the US, I can't imagine why that would be strange, they have more guns then people don't they ?
You're missing the point. HE DOESN'T REDEEM IN CASH. If you don't have a bank account, you cannot do business with him.
Forget it. He's on a roll. :rolleyes:
Important safety tip: And actually, these seemingly petty details are often fantastically important. At the office the people who deal with the customers are constantly getting beat up about the number of clicks it takes to do anything in the system. Even the wrong name on a panel can cause a great deal of grief because each customer interprets every word according to their state's terminology, as though there was no possibility that some other state might use a different word.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:28 am

Midsize Jake wrote:I think I understand your point, so... just so we're clear on each other's terminology, how far would the value have to fall, and how long would it have to stay there, before you're willing to accept that the $1.5K valuation represented a "bubble"? Assuming it were to actually happen, of course.
Ahh, now we are talking because what 'bubble' means to one person can be different to what it means to someone else. For it to be a bubble for me, it would have to be artificially high, a price sustained by something that can't make sense in the long term. Like the US constantly printing and borrowing money at the moment, investing in the US economy would be insanity and in say two years to three years that will be abundantly clear. They'd need a nuclear war to escape their financial troubles.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but it strikes me that not knowing the ultimate stable value of something is actually the whole point of bubblenomics, or at least a prerequisite to forming a "bubble." It shouldn't matter so much how old or new the thing is. Still, in a modern financial context I suppose it's not really a bubble until it bursts, and given that most people don't see the recent price-drop as a "burst," I guess that's why I'm asking.
For me, the opposite is true, a bubble is simply somthing at an unsustainable price above it's true sustainable value.
bubblenomics
That'd be the problem, I'm imagining some group of people you'd cringe to find at a dinner-party who have re-defined the meaning of 'bubble' from the everyday financial meaning into something contrary to it, in their own little world of jargon that they invented for their own small circle.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:33 am

Cedric wrote:
Ming wrote:
Pen wrote:
I also note that one of the local bitcoin guys will not actually redeem bitcoins into real cash; he insists on a transfer into a bank account.
people who sell stuff on ebay do stuff like that, for example, for pickup, some people want to meet at a shopping center. It's just simple don't mug me stuff. In the US, I can't imagine why that would be strange, they have more guns then people don't they ?
You're missing the point. HE DOESN'T REDEEM IN CASH. If you don't have a bank account, you cannot do business with him.
Forget it. He's on a roll. :rolleyes:
Have you heard of a "cashless store" before ? It's the same thing, it just discourages robbery. Real estate agents are often "cashless".

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:15 am

Pen wrote:Have you heard of a "cashless store" before ? It's the same thing, it just discourages robbery. Real estate agents are often "cashless".
:picard:

You are so missing the point....

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Ming » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:20 am

Pen wrote:Ahh, now we are talking because what 'bubble' means to one person can be different to what it means to someone else. For it to be a bubble for me, it would have to be artificially high, a price sustained by something that can't make sense in the long term. Like the US constantly printing and borrowing money at the moment, investing in the US economy would be insanity and in say two years to three years that will be abundantly clear. They'd need a nuclear war to escape their financial troubles.
:twilightzone:

Look, this is deep down in the cesspool of woo-woo right wing paranoid "economics". If this is the mentality that keeps Bitcoin going, an implosion is a certainty.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by DanMurphy » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:27 am

I shudder to say this but Ming the Merciless seems incapable of recognizing a troll/moron (the two things are indistinguishable and so not worth trying to separate) from folk worth talking to.

Smite me if you must Ming. But short of that, there's a way to put a troll on "ignore."

This is not the world of Wikipedia Warcraft.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:52 am

DanMurphy wrote:This is not the world of Wikipedia Warcraft.
Perhaps I should regret starting this thread.
"Pen" is quite the zealot, rational or not. Again, Bitcoin=Wikipedia=drug.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:04 am

Ming wrote:
Pen wrote:Have you heard of a "cashless store" before ? It's the same thing, it just discourages robbery. Real estate agents are often "cashless".
:picard:

You are so missing the point....
Well, explain the point to me. Some guy doesn't want to walk with his pants around his ankles because his pockets are full of cash, what has that got to do with bitcoin ? it's to do with his own personal security.
Ming wrote: :twilightzone:

<meaningless crap>
This is where my lawyer says 'OBJECTION, does the prosecutor have a question ?' and the Judge says "SUSTAINED" and says if you don't have an actual question for the witness, then stop making a mockery of the proceedings (and add a Judge Judy glare, even though it's not a Judge Jewllery courtroom)
DanMurphy wrote:I shudder to say this but Ming the Merciless seems incapable of recognizing a troll/moron (the two things are indistinguishable and so not worth trying to separate) from folk worth talking to.

Smite me if you must Ming. But short of that, there's a way to put a troll on "ignore."

This is not the world of Wikipedia Warcraft.
When you were being charming and funny before with your insults that was cool and I liked it, if you're just going to name-call like a wiki admin, then not only am I going to not talk to you, I'll seriously consider removing the quote from my profile.

I say Bitcoin has effected Western union, and you people say 'it hasn't' yet I find in 5 seconds a heap of graphs that show exactly that, and sites that say exactly that, stuff which in a non-wiki world show that it's a popular viewpoint, now what, you're just going to namecall as an answer to reality ? sigh. I fast become tired of you at this rate. I guess not everyone stuck at home because of health, I guess some people can't work out the simple game of money out in the real world for reasons that escape me. There are a bunch of charts that are easy to read and understand and you just want to namecall in response to it ? I just don't get it.

You're getting boring. Please go back to where you were charming.

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Re: Bitcoin goes down, down, down

Unread post by Pen » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:12 am

EricBarbour wrote: Perhaps I should regret starting this thread.
"Pen" is quite the zealot, rational or not. Again, Bitcoin=Wikipedia=drug.
I'd like to claim 'irrational' because eccentricity is stylish and kawaii. All evidence to the contrary of course, re, the supporting evidence.

Bitcoin = wikipedia = drug, maybe, cause there is all that cash going on I guess. Bitcoin = wu = paypal, and paypal is hardly a drug but then again ebay most certainly is a drug of addiction for many. I think I'll go get a hit right now !!!! the other day I found something I'd been searching for for decades, literally. ebay = unavoidable.

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