WP:MANDY

[watis]

As this thread includes allegations of serious email harrassment against multiple people who can be easily connected to their real-world identities, some as semi-public figures, I recommend moving it to the unindexed section.

[Vigilant]

Time for some straight talk:

You whine too much.
You get into arguments with people trying to help you.
You are thin-skinned and look for conflict.

You will never get an apology on wikipedia.
Having come here and said that wikipedia insiders did you wrong, you will never be unblocked.
You are just another in a very long line of people who went on wikipedia and had similar things done to them.

All of the kindly meant advice here will not change any of these facts one itoa.

You have three basic options:
1) Give up and leave wikipedia, knowing now what a cesspool it is.
2) Make a new account and edit what you please, leaving your previous conflicts in the dust.
3) Bemoan the unfairness of it all.

[Beeblebrox]

I am aware of the email address to which these emails were sent, and I have no intentions of divulging it since IHA has chosen not to, but in my view it was almost certainly a case of someone guessing the address, which would have been easy to do. IHA did not seem willing to believe what is, in my view, the Occam's Razor explanation.

I cannot see it as the Occam's Razor reason because of three important logical points.

• 1. I had not made a public comment to my talk page about bringing the block to the arbitration committee.
• 2. Outside of the small number of people (enough to count on one hand) that I spoke with on Discord, plus of course the arbitration committee themselves, nobody should have known I had sent it to the arbitration committee.
• 3. The harassing email specifically mentioned the arbitration committee in its subject line before telling me to kill myself.

So,this is what I was getting at, that you sent emails to the committee that you claimed were -from- the committee somehow, saying these horrible things, which you felt you needed to respond to. It's your response I'd like to discuss.

[Without Comfort]

I am aware of the email address to which these emails were sent, and I have no intentions of divulging it since IHA has chosen not to, but in my view it was almost certainly a case of someone guessing the address, which would have been easy to do. IHA did not seem willing to believe what is, in my view, the Occam's Razor explanation.

I cannot see it as the Occam's Razor reason because of three important logical points.

• 1. I had not made a public comment to my talk page about bringing the block to the arbitration committee.
• 2. Outside of the small number of people (enough to count on one hand) that I spoke with on Discord, plus of course the arbitration committee themselves, nobody should have known I had sent it to the arbitration committee.
• 3. The harassing email specifically mentioned the arbitration committee in its subject line before telling me to kill myself.

So,this is what I was getting at, that you sent emails to the committee that you claimed were -from- the committee somehow, saying these horrible things, which you felt you needed to respond to. It's your response I'd like to discuss.

Now this is a good offer. I think it's the best anyone could hope for.

My longstanding attitude is that I innately dislike everyone on ArbCom, even those whose names I don't know--which are many since I can't stand following the ridiculousness of this farce of a disciplinary committee. Even I relent that some people just aren't trying to be awful.

Put aside your feelings. I'll give Beebs a tongue lashing if he turns into a dragon here.

[IhateAccounts]

Please feel free to disagree with me, and I may very well be wrong here, but I'm going to guess that T & S were not involved. That said, Kalliope at T & S has allegedly worked to cover up sexual assault that was connected to another online platform for couch surfing. This is covered in one or more threads here.

Trust & Safety were definitely involved and were included on emails.

Help me here. Do you mean involved in that they received and ignored emails from you?

They received and repeatedly ignored emails from me. Not once did they bother to respond.

[IhateAccounts]

Time for some straight talk:[trolling and attempts to insult to get a reaction]

And that's why I have put Vigilant on my ignore list.

[IhateAccounts]

I am aware of the email address to which these emails were sent, and I have no intentions of divulging it since IHA has chosen not to, but in my view it was almost certainly a case of someone guessing the address, which would have been easy to do. IHA did not seem willing to believe what is, in my view, the Occam's Razor explanation.

I cannot see it as the Occam's Razor reason because of three important logical points.

• 1. I had not made a public comment to my talk page about bringing the block to the arbitration committee.
• 2. Outside of the small number of people (enough to count on one hand) that I spoke with on Discord, plus of course the arbitration committee themselves, nobody should have known I had sent it to the arbitration committee.
• 3. The harassing email specifically mentioned the arbitration committee in its subject line before telling me to kill myself.

So,this is what I was getting at, that you sent emails to the committee that you claimed were -from- the committee somehow, saying these horrible things, which you felt you needed to respond to. It's your response I'd like to discuss.

I'd rather you discuss the things that are of relevance now. "It's your response I'd like to discuss" could have been done at any time. You had my email address, and you chose not to.

What this sounds like to me, and I am trying to keep an open mind so I am asking this in order to get your clarification, is the following:

• You won't address the circumstances and problems with the block itself.
• You won't address the specific questions that have been raised, such as the specific reasoning for the block that needs to be addressed, and the catch-22 situations I have been put in.
• You won't address the actual harassment that I received.
• You want to focus on trying to find fault with my reaction to receiving this specific harassment, in tandem with the arbitration committee's form letter, at a time when the only people who should have known the existence of my email address were the arbitration committee, "trust & safety", and a very tiny list of people on discord.

Please let me know if any of these points are incorrect and provide a correction to them, Beeblebrox.

[Vigilant]

Time for some straight talk:[trolling and attempts to insult to get a reaction]

And that's why I have put Vigilant on my ignore list.

Oh dear...

Whatever shall I do?

[Without Comfort]

I am aware of the email address to which these emails were sent, and I have no intentions of divulging it since IHA has chosen not to, but in my view it was almost certainly a case of someone guessing the address, which would have been easy to do. IHA did not seem willing to believe what is, in my view, the Occam's Razor explanation.

I cannot see it as the Occam's Razor reason because of three important logical points.

• 1. I had not made a public comment to my talk page about bringing the block to the arbitration committee.
• 2. Outside of the small number of people (enough to count on one hand) that I spoke with on Discord, plus of course the arbitration committee themselves, nobody should have known I had sent it to the arbitration committee.
• 3. The harassing email specifically mentioned the arbitration committee in its subject line before telling me to kill myself.

So,this is what I was getting at, that you sent emails to the committee that you claimed were -from- the committee somehow, saying these horrible things, which you felt you needed to respond to. It's your response I'd like to discuss.

I'd rather you discuss the things that are of relevance now. "It's your response I'd like to discuss" could have been done at any time. You had my email address, and you chose not to.

What this sounds like to me, and I am trying to keep an open mind so I am asking this in order to get your clarification, is the following:

• You won't address the circumstances and problems with the block itself.
• You won't address the specific questions that have been raised, such as the specific reasoning for the block that needs to be addressed, and the catch-22 situations I have been put in.
• You won't address the actual harassment that I received.
• You want to focus on trying to find fault with my reaction to receiving this specific harassment, in tandem with the arbitration committee's form letter, at a time when the only people who should have known the existence of my email address were the arbitration committee, "trust & safety", and a very tiny list of people on discord.

Please let me know if any of these points are incorrect and provide a correction to them, Beeblebrox.

I hope you'll listen calmly if Beebs says to some points, "I'm sorry you are and were confused about what ArbCom believes is our job and what is not our job."

I would really like Beebs to listen to the final bullet point on your list with an open heart. Of course, we now know that maybe somebody could discover the email address by sending emails to guess-able addresses to hone in on a real address, such as IHA @yahoo, IHA @gmail, etc.

[IhateAccounts]

I am aware of the email address to which these emails were sent, and I have no intentions of divulging it since IHA has chosen not to, but in my view it was almost certainly a case of someone guessing the address, which would have been easy to do. IHA did not seem willing to believe what is, in my view, the Occam's Razor explanation.

I cannot see it as the Occam's Razor reason because of three important logical points.

• 1. I had not made a public comment to my talk page about bringing the block to the arbitration committee.
• 2. Outside of the small number of people (enough to count on one hand) that I spoke with on Discord, plus of course the arbitration committee themselves, nobody should have known I had sent it to the arbitration committee.
• 3. The harassing email specifically mentioned the arbitration committee in its subject line before telling me to kill myself.

So,this is what I was getting at, that you sent emails to the committee that you claimed were -from- the committee somehow, saying these horrible things, which you felt you needed to respond to. It's your response I'd like to discuss.

I'd rather you discuss the things that are of relevance now. "It's your response I'd like to discuss" could have been done at any time. You had my email address, and you chose not to.

What this sounds like to me, and I am trying to keep an open mind so I am asking this in order to get your clarification, is the following:

• You won't address the circumstances and problems with the block itself.
• You won't address the specific questions that have been raised, such as the specific reasoning for the block that needs to be addressed, and the catch-22 situations I have been put in.
• You won't address the actual harassment that I received.
• You want to focus on trying to find fault with my reaction to receiving this specific harassment, in tandem with the arbitration committee's form letter, at a time when the only people who should have known the existence of my email address were the arbitration committee, "trust & safety", and a very tiny list of people on discord.

Please let me know if any of these points are incorrect and provide a correction to them, Beeblebrox.

I hope you'll listen calmly if Beebs says to some points, "I'm sorry you are and were confused about what ArbCom believes is our job and what is not our job."

I would really like Beebs to listen to the final bullet point on your list with an open heart. Of course, we now know that maybe somebody could discover the email address by sending emails to guess-able addresses to hone in on a real address, such as IHA @yahoo, IHA @gmail, etc.

I was specifically told (by CaptainEek, or whoever was claiming to be same, on Discord) that emailing to the Arbitration Committee was my only option in the face of Guerillero's false-basis block claiming to be "checkuser" based and Chetsford's bad-faith decline of any due-process review under the reasoning that my appeal had not come from "the original" account SkepticAnonymous (which still isn't me).

[Beeblebrox]

It's certainly true that arbcom is where you go to have CU blocks reviewed, however not every block is reviewed by every arbitrator, and I was not one of the arbs who reviewed your block, so I haven't actually seen the CU evidence. We get an enormous number of block appeals and it simply isn't feasible to have a full committee vote on every single one, we only do that when the initial review leans in the direction of unblocking, which was not the case with your block. The specifics of the internal deliberations are not something I can discuss publicly without clearing that with the arbs who did the actual review, which I am not inclined to do.

Since you clearly don't want to have an open and frank discussion about what happened after that, I guess we're not having this conversation.

What I will say is sometimes, a point is reached with an appealing user where it no longer seems particularly relevant what they were originally blocked for.

[IhateAccounts]

Since you clearly don't want to have an open and frank discussion about what happened after that, I guess we're not having this conversation.

What I want is to have this conversation in order. It saddens me that you appear not to. I think that the circumstances of the block, and how I was treated with all the bigotry and harassment that I received, are highly relevant and I find it improper to skip them over.

It is frustrating that as I read your comments above you seem to want to discuss one thing, and only one thing. The way you have phrased it sounds to me more like you are intending victim-blaming rather than discussing the whole situation.

If that is not your intention, then I am still trying to keep an open mind, and I welcome you clarifying or amending your statements.

[Vigilant]

Mods, I vote to lock this thread.

[Without Comfort]

Since you clearly don't want to have an open and frank discussion about what happened after that, I guess we're not having this conversation.

What I want is to have this conversation in order. It saddens me that you appear not to. I think that the circumstances of the block, and how I was treated with all the bigotry and harassment that I received, are highly relevant and I find it improper to skip them over.

It is frustrating that as I read your comments above you seem to want to discuss one thing, and only one thing. The way you have phrased it sounds to me more like you are intending victim-blaming rather than discussing the whole situation.

If that is not your intention, then I am still trying to keep an open mind, and I welcome you clarifying or amending your statements.

I think Beeblebrox is in a position in which he cannot represent ArbCom here while also having to conduct this matter with his Arb hat on. It is perfectly natural that because Beebs is the human who is willing to chat with you that you think he represents this committee. As it happens he is straddling a fence between being willing to talk to you outside of any WMF property and not being able to talk to you frankly because some of what this involves is confidential with your private correspondence with the committee.

Let me help you flip this around in your head. Beebs is the only current Arb who is willing to be kind enough to share some of his time with you just person to person here where he has no role other than "member" just like you.

You've made some mistakes which all people do. A lot has not been your fault. There have been a ton of mistaken assumptions made, not all by you.

I think you feel like holding Beebs accountable when this is an unfortunate situation that he hasn't played much part in.

There is a really brutal truth here and that's that ArbCom doesn't exist to help users. There isn't necessarily anywhere or anyone related to Wikipedia that does.

If you can find it in your heart to say, "Beebs, this isn't your fault, but I feel really hurt by the situation I've been put in," maybe this dialogue can move deeper into the heart of the matter.

There is a ton of victim-blaming, but this whole Wikipedia scenario is structured that way. I don't think Beebs can change that and I think he would be misrepresenting Wikipedia and ArbCom to act like he can.

[Without Comfort]

Mods, I vote to lock this thread.

I get where you're coming from, but I believe this was a newbie editor who experienced some extraordinary things that were hurtful and disturbing. It's okay that they need more time to process this. I do not believe this will be somebody who wants to bother Wikipedia critics or be a nuisance.

[Midsize Jake]

I get where you're coming from, but I believe this was a newbie editor who experienced some extraordinary things that were hurtful and disturbing. It's okay that they need more time to process this. I do not believe this will be somebody who wants to bother Wikipedia critics or be a nuisance.

Fair enough, but I do think we're getting close to the "running around in circles" phase of the conversation.

[IhateAccounts]

I think Beeblebrox is in a position in which he cannot represent ArbCom here while also having to conduct this matter with his Arb hat on. It is perfectly natural that because Beebs is the human who is willing to chat with you that you think he represents this committee. As it happens he is straddling a fence between being willing to talk to you outside of any WMF property and not being able to talk to you frankly because some of what this involves is confidential with your private correspondence with the committee.

That isn't quite how it is sounding to me but I appreciate your trying to provide your perspective.

Let me help you flip this around in your head. Beebs is the only current Arb who is willing to be kind enough to share some of his time with you just person to person here where he has no role other than "member" just like you.

You've made some mistakes which all people do. A lot has not been your fault. There have been a ton of mistaken assumptions made, not all by you.

It doesn't really feel "person to person", and it feels like Beeblebrox is stating things "with his Arb hat on" as you put it.

I think you feel like holding Beebs accountable when this is an unfortunate situation that he hasn't played much part in.

I would not put it that way. I was hoping Beeblebrox would answer some of the questions posed earlier, questions that drive pretty straight to the heart of the matter.

There is a really brutal truth here and that's that ArbCom doesn't exist to help users. There isn't necessarily anywhere or anyone related to Wikipedia that does.

If you can find it in your heart to say, "Beebs, this isn't your fault, but I feel really hurt by the situation I've been put in," maybe this dialogue can move deeper into the heart of the matter.

Beeblebrox: this may not be specifically your fault, but I do feel really hurt by the situation I've been put in, and by the way I have been treated. The lack of empathy and near-complete lack of communication (not naming you specifically, but in general from virtually everyone in "power" positions at wikipedia, including those whose job it is such as the "trust and safety" group) and lack of care for those who are on the receiving end of hate and harassment has been appalling.

There is a ton of victim-blaming, but this whole Wikipedia scenario is structured that way. I don't think Beebs can change that and I think he would be misrepresenting Wikipedia and ArbCom to act like he can.

From what I understand of wikipedia structure, the arbitration committee would do well to start consider how wikipedia users are treated, and how they as arbitration committee members treat others.

[Bezdomni]

Also, anyone who gives Comcast money is a bit suspect in my book.

(sorry, comcasters)

In my apartment complex it's either that or dialup.

According to "How to Stop Comcast from Ruining the Internet" (2014),

Time Warner Cable got Los Angeles; Comcast took Houston. They called this exercise the “Summer of Love.” Today, after massive consolidation and further swaps among industry members — some blessed by the federal government — the cable industry is reaping the rewards of “whole of market” control: for many Americans, their only choice for wired high-speed Internet access at speeds of 25 Mbps or more is their local cable monopoly.

source

I did not realize how much power legislators, capital concentration, & regulators had given to cable monopolies over there in the land of the free. My apologies.

sometimes, a point is reached with an appealing user where it no longer seems particularly relevant what they were originally blocked for.

Presumably such a point is not reached with unappealing users?

It feels like Beeblebrox is stating things "with his Arb hat on"

Yep.

Vigilant makes good straight comments regarding the options open to you. Naming an account "I hate accounts" is clever enough, I suppose, but I can't really see why you would be so concerned about having a throwaway pseudo's reputation potentially smeared in so short a time. You have only "been" IHateAccounts since Oct. 2020, right?

[IhateAccounts]

You know what? After sleeping on it? Let's do this.

One of the things MJL tried to impress on me was that assuming good faith meant trying to give someone on the other side an "out", a way to peacefully come to some way of saying that their comments had been misunderstood or otherwise reach a positive conclusion.

I repeatedly tried to do that here for you, Beeblebrox, by wanting to focus on the things I think really matter, which are the lies that are the basis of the block and how I was treated in the kangaroo-court "SPI" process.

I also didn't really WANT to re-read a few of the emails I had received in order to copy and paste them. Do you know how hard it is to open up an email that has a subject line calling you "tranny" or "fagboy", where you already KNOW that the message inside is going to tell you to commit suicide? I bet you don't.

But what the hell. You want to focus on the emails, so let's do that first, and then you can try to defend it.

This is the appeal email I sent on February 8.

In-Depth Review
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Hello,

as I am informed it is a requirement that I email you, I am emailing this request for an in-depth review of the false-premises block on my account created by genericusername57 and guerillero. I am not a sockpuppet. They accused me of being someone from 2012, when I was not even living in my current state and was in middle school. They then kept moving the goalposts whenever there was pushback on their false claims. They claim I have "the same" computer, which is even more ridiculous, since I switched to a PC laptop when my old macbook was dying last year.

On advice from my mentor and others, I stopped bothering to log in or look at Wikipedia, to "let others handle it." And then my following that advice was held against me.

Before and since creating an account, I was treated with disrespect and assumptions of bad faith, over and over again. Despite my bending over to show good faith, asking first on talk pages, asking for advice before writing reports, I was attacked no matter what I did. I had to endure people attacking me on wikipedia and off, I had to deal with people on reddit and twitter trying to doxx me, and then I even had people trying to doxx me during the nonsense created by genericusername57 and guerillero.

Am I angry? Yes, of course I'm angry. I am angry at the way wikipedia seems to crow "assume good faith" and never do it. I am angry, personally, at the way wikipedia seems to nonstop mistreat and harass trans individuals, which apparently happened even while I was being prevented from speaking up for myself. I am angry at the fact that even simple acts such as joining the "Wikimedia Community" discord server, when invited, resulted in people sending me harassing messages. Most of all, I am angry at the fact that mistreatment especially of trans people seems to be a way of life for wikipedia.

So I am sending this appeal. Justice delayed is still justice denied, but Justice un-fought-for is always justice denied.

This is what I got back that day:

Re: In-Depth Review
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In order for the Arbitration Committee to review your situation, please provide us with your English Wikipedia user name.

Please be advised that the Arbitration Committee only hears appeals from banned or blocked users who are blocked on the English Wikipedia (i) based on checkuser or oversight evidence, (ii) based on information that is not suitable for public discussion, or (iii) as a result of an arbitration case or arbitration enforcement remedy.

If you have not been blocked for one of these reasons, please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ing_blocks and try appealing the block using the unblock template on your user talk page. Alternatively, you may appeal at http://utrs-beta.wmflabs.org (which hosts the English Wikipedia's UTRS system for block appeals), where an experienced administrator will examine your appeal and make an informed decision in due course. If you require assistance on using the UTRS appeal system, you should see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:UTRS.

This my reply February 9th.

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My user name, the only user name I have ever had on wikipedia, is the same as this email.

I heard nothing back at all from the arbitration committee after this for some time. I discovered THIS email, and their form-letter "reply", on March 4th.

Fag banned from Wikipedia for life by ArbCom
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Kill yourself faggot

Re: In-Depth Review
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The Arbitration Committee has carefully considered your application and declines to unblock at this time.

You may re-apply to have your block reviewed in six months' time. There is no automatic entitlement to an unblock, so you will need to provide us with good reasons why we should do so. In an appeal, we would expect to see an explanation of the conduct which led to the original block, how you intend to avoid such conduct reoccurring and what productive contributions you would make instead.

When contacting this committee or responding to any of our messages, please ensure that arbcom-en@wikimedia.org is in the "to" or "cc" field of any reply you make to this message. Messages sent only to me or another individual arbitrator may not be read.

For the Arbitration Committee,

Maxim

Note that at this point, they were still clinging to the false premise / pretext of my "being a sockpuppet of SkepticAnonymous", so the form letter is both insulting and nonsensical in that regard.

I found the two emails together on the same day, because I had taken time off for other things and had half given up on having any response at all. I was, understandably, pissed. So this was my response.

Clearly your "Arbcom" cannot be trusted and your "Trust and Safety" policies towards Trans individuals are worthless.
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I was finally in a position to review today and this is what I have found. Clearly I was 100% right not to trust your "Arbcom" with any personal information.unknown.png

Included in this reply to "trust and safety" was a screenshot of my inbox containing both the "official" response and the harassment email as yet unread because I hadn't even gotten that far yet. They did not respond. Ever.

Fw: Clearly your "Arbcom" cannot be trusted and your "Trust and Safety" policies towards Trans individuals are worthless.
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Thank you all, for proving I was 100% right not to want to trust you with any of my personal information. I've been framed, I've been lied about, I've been harassed. And Wikipedia, violating its own policies, has treated me with nothing but contempt simply for being Trans.

The way I have been treated is nothing but despicable.

I have forwarded this to your "emergency" trust and safety group, which I will have to assume are just as anti-trans and willing to enable the sort of abuse I've received, and will promptly ignore it and do nothing for my protection from you.

Neither the arbitration committee, nor the "trust and safety" group responded... officially that is. I got THIS on March 5th.

KILL YOURSELF FAG
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Stay the fuck off wikipedia and kill yourself faggot

So yes. I was beyond angry and hurt at this point, and this was my response.

Fw: Clearly your "Arbcom" cannot be trusted and your "Trust and Safety" policies towards Trans individuals are worthless.
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I wish I was surprised to see that the anti-LGBT hatemongers of wikipedia don't even respond, but you never gave a shit about my safety before when I was being harassed, so why the fuck should you anti-LGBT hatemongers give a shit now?

You enable abuse, you enable harassment, you enable doxxing, and when someone stands up, you lie about them and frame them and attack them.

It's a small wonder you create enemies. You have no idea how tempted I am to simply start vandalizing every chance I get, after showing nothing but good faith every single fucking time you abusers have mistreated me.

And yet I haven't. Which says everything about my having a conscience and your being conscienceless abusers.

And here is what was sent to me March 7th, and March 8th.

TRANNY FAG BANNED
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Fucking loser tranny fag kill yourself.

IHA SUCKS COCK
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Dumb fucking tranny whore. ArbCom said fuck off. Kill yourself.

So yes, once again, I was beyond pissed. Beyond pissed that neither the arbitration committee, nor "trust and safety", had even bothered to respond. That they didn't care one bit about what was happening or my safety and wellbeing. In a moment of an emotion I don't even know how to describe, I wrote precisely how I was feeling, and it is below.

I'm going to say right now, I never acted on this. I never vandalized english wikipedia, even after this. Once the moment of being so absolutely far past anger or infuriation at this mistreatment passed, I had no desire to do so.

Re: Fw: Clearly your "Arbcom" cannot be trusted and your "Trust and Safety" policies towards Trans individuals are worthless.
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And not one reply. Of course. Because Wikipedia is really just a cross burning, nazi-level, stormfront level hate site.

I was right not to trust any of you, especially that fake-trans abuser "Captain Eek", with my personal information since all you do is harass and bully trans individuals. Send me emails telling me to commit suicide?

Fuck. You. Fine then. I will make it my mission. Every time I am on a public wifi source, I will make sure to vandalize a few pages, just to waste your fucking time. Because wikipedia is a nazi site that doesn't fucking deserve to exist, the way you fucking abusers and bullies mistreat people.

And here are two more emails I received afterwards.

FAGBOY BANNED
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Justice delayed is still justice denied, you been denied you fucking fag.

FAGBOY STILL BANNED
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Kill yourself.

My final response to this was this below.

Re: Fw: Clearly your "Arbcom" cannot be trusted and your "Trust and Safety" policies towards Trans individuals are worthless.
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And half a dozen harassing emails I have received telling me to kill myself, calling me "fagboy" and "tranny" and more.

But not one word from any of you who are supposed to protect users from this kind of harassment.

Because of course, you're the fucking ones DOING the harassment.

I admit it. There were times when I was fucking PISSED, or angry in a way well and truly beyond any good descriptive means, on receiving the harassing emails. Receiving those emails while being completely ignored was rage-inducing.

I think Beeblebrox was intending to parcel tiny bits out in drips and drabs, to try to portray me as some kind of psychopath or something. Beeblebrox can feel free to correct me on that if he wants to.

Now, as Beeblebrox demanded revealing the emails repeatedly as a condition for discussion, let's have an "open and frank" discussion on EVERYTHING that happened, all the way through. I still want that to include the false-pretense pretext of the block itself. I'm going to hope Beeblebrox might want that too.

And while we're at it, Beeblebrox, maybe you can explain how the sender of those emails had access to the February 8th email I sent to you at the arbitration committee, because they quoted my final line in one of their emails and that was a specific thing that sent me through the roof for a few minutes.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

You got trolled by someone who guessed your email address - those "tranny" emails did not come from ArbCom or anyone associated with them. Can I know that for sure? No. Would I put money on it (if I were the gambling type)? Without hesitation.

Oh, and re: "they quoted my final line in one of their emails" - I'm not sure which line that is, can you be specific?.

Never mind, just spotted it, presumably the "Justice delayed is still justice denied" thing. That is the one part that does sound suspicious, and I don't have a ready explanation of how they might have got that.

But I can see why ArbCom stopped talking to you. Yes, someone has been trolling you, and it's possibly something leaked/hacked from an account related to ArbCom (or that Discord server - I've no idea how that works). But hurling your attacks at all of them as if it's a transphobic attack from the entirety of ArbCom and/or T&S was guaranteed to not get you a sympathetic ear.

[Beeblebrox]

I'm not sure that's all of them, I don't see the directed personal attacks on specific arbs or the threats of legal action.

But you get the idea. After their appeal was denied we got a series of emails which simply stated as a fact that arbcom was sending them these awful emails, that we all hate queer people, that we are literally nazis, and that IHA was suing us.

And we were expected to do... what? apologize for things we didn't do and admit to being queerbashing nazis?

Ignoring it seemed a better option. I don't know if IHA is SkepticsAnonymous, but as I indicated before, it doesn't matter anymore. What I am quite certain of is that I don't buy the "innocent babe-in-the-woods who was cruelly attacked just for being themselves" routine at all.

[Vigilant]

lol

Just when I thought this thread was played out...


Halt_and_Catch_Fire_(computing) (T-H-L)

an idiom referring to a computer machine code instruction that causes the computer's central processing unit (CPU) to cease meaningful operation

[Beeblebrox]

Never mind, just spotted it, presumably the "Justice delayed is still justice denied" thing. That is the one part that does sound suspicious, and I don't have a ready explanation of how they might have got that.

If you stop taking IHA at their word it all explains itself rather easily.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

Never mind, just spotted it, presumably the "Justice delayed is still justice denied" thing. That is the one part that does sound suspicious, and I don't have a ready explanation of how they might have got that.

If you stop taking IHA at their word it all explains itself rather easily.

Well, yes, that would fit in with other possibilities that I'd been considering.

[Without Comfort]

There were leaks from an ArbCom email list in the past. Maybe a miscreant has access to some emails.

IHA, do you remember sending any email having to do with being angry at any specific named Arbs or suing somebody?

[IhateAccounts]

I'm not sure that's all of them, I don't see the directed personal attacks on specific arbs or the threats of legal action.

Not anything I ever sent. Making stuff up?

[IhateAccounts]

There were leaks from an ArbCom email list in the past. Maybe a miscreant has access to some emails.

IHA, do you remember sending any email having to do with being angry at any specific named Arbs or suing somebody?

No. Nothing I ever sent. I literally went through and copied every email I have sent to the arbitration committee here.

[IhateAccounts]

Ignoring it seemed a better option. I don't know if IHA is SkepticsAnonymous, but as I indicated before, it doesn't matter anymore. What I am quite certain of is that I don't buy the "innocent babe-in-the-woods who was cruelly attacked just for being themselves" routine at all.

What this sounds like is that you were never intending to talk in good faith. Feel free to correct that if you want to.

You say you don't know if I am a sockpuppet. I am definitively not one.

You seem to say you don't care about the harassment I received. Your declaration that "it doesn't matter any more" looks based on the fact that someone on or connected to the arbitration committee coordinated that harassment so that I could be driven to a point of the reaction you wanted.

And all this was done by sending me emails telling me to do self-destructive things, which you seem to see no problem with.

If you stop taking IHA at their word it all explains itself rather easily.

I came here truthfully. I provided what you asked for. Trying to accuse me of bad faith here is disingenuous to put it mildly.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

This might not help, IHA, but here's my thoughts on how this all looks to an observer who has seen very little of the evidence first hand.

The observer could believe Beeblebrox. I don't know what others think, but I've known Beeblebrox for a good many years on WP (as has just about everyone here). In my view, he's been among the most open and honest admins and arbs that WP has had (not that I agree with everything he says, just that in my experience he's always been honest about it). Beeblebrox is unusual in being far more open and honest with us here at WO than any other arb would dare (and he's had criticism for it over at WP).

Alternatively, an observer could believe you. After you have turned on and attacked everyone who has tried to help, after you have made scurrilous accusations against everyone who doesn't agree with you. You, who puts it down to anti-LGBT persecution, who claims that Wikipedia has a hidden policy of refusing admin to anyone who consorts with the LGBT crowd. And that Wikipedia has an institutional hatred of non-binary people (despite the number of non-binary people who are and have been admins and arbitrators).

Can you see how such an observer might not find the choice too difficult?

I obviously don't know for sure what's happened here. But there's a troll somewhere who's loving every minute of it. How far away that troll actually is... well, that's the question.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

I'll just add that had I been an arb and been subjected to the obnoxious attacks that we've already seen (never mind the other alleged personal attacks and legal threats), I'd have wiped my hands of the case too. The official reason for the block would become largely irrelevant... in fact, I might have proposed reblocking as an Arbcom block and leaving it at that.

[turnedworm]

I don't generally condone taking over blocks as a committee, unless there are good offwiki reasons.

Abuse at the committee is something we just deal with.

I absolutely agree with Beebs on the emails though. IHA, check what you sent on Sunday, March 21, 2021 2:19 PM, if it helps

[Boing! said Zebedee]

I don't generally condone taking over blocks as a committee, unless there are good offwiki reasons.

Abuse at the committee is something we just deal with.

I absolutely agree with Beebs on the emails though. IHA, check what you sent on Sunday, March 21, 2021 2:19 PM, if it helps

Yeah, fair point - I can see why you don't do that. It's just a shame that it can leave an aguably weak block reason for a blocked editor to pin their complaints on, even when they're clearly someone who doesn't fit in a civil and collegial environment and has no chance of being unblocked.

Oh, and IHA, if you're looking for another Arb I'd believe any day of the week ahead of you, here he is.

[Without Comfort]

Of course, there is a detail that has not been followed up on. IHA says every email sent to ArbCom has been posted. Not every email ArbCom received has been posted. There is only one potential move regarding the disputed ArbCom emails. Is it possible for ArbCom to receive official permission from IHA to post whatever emails ArbCom thinks IHA sent. Email spoofing exists.

I'm largely sympathetic to IHA because a somewhat sophisticated third party could confuse somewhat who's less savvy.

I do also wonder how things were communicated on Discord. If C. Eek said, "Use protonmail," in a chat, any observer could see that, no?

[turnedworm]

Is it possible for ArbCom to receive official permission from IHA to post whatever emails ArbCom thinks IHA sent. Email spoofing exists.

I don't think that's necessary. I don't feel any need to air any more in public, "he said she said" just perpetuates things. I don't believe IHA is actively disagreeing that they went too far in their emails to arbcom, Indeed they state that they did say things they regret, as they were "pissed"

As for spoofing - the email I'm thinking of, nearly two weeks after IHA states they sent their last, including a full thread of previously sent emails.

Anyway, I haven't had chance to look into the substance of the appeal. I generally keep away from CU appeals, because I have a low opinion of the tool against the tech savvy. So, I didn't review it at the time and I'm just starting to return from a few weeks ignoring Wikipedia.

I will say though, from perusing this thread, one statement by IHA stands out.. that they know SA is actively trying to return to Wikipedia, but it isn't them. My question is how they are privvy to that information.

I will also say, from my current reading of IHAs manner in this thread, as well as their behaviour on the emails, I'm not particularly interested in seeing them unblocked, even if I did believe their version of events. I take a pragmatic view on Wikipedia, and am less worried about justice for justice sake.

[Without Comfort]

I will say though, from perusing this thread, one statement by IHA stands out.. that they know SA is actively trying to return to Wikipedia, but it isn't them. My question is how they are privvy to that information.

It might have been mentioned here perhaps or IHA may have heard it from someone.

[iii]

Unlike others here, I'm inclined to take people at their word until I actually catch them in a lie. Call me names if you want.

So, let me take you at your word, IhateAccounts. The timestamp for your e-mail to arbcom is 9 Feb. Is there a place on the interwebs where on 9 Mar or prior to that you have posted excerpts from that e-mail or repeated the "Justice delayed is still justice denied" quip?

Discord and Twitter come to mind as possibilities.

But we are rapidly going to lose out on future returns on this thread if we don't come to some understanding about what you might want out of this that would actually be possible for you to get. To reiterate: You're not going to get an apology.

[IhateAccounts]

I will say though, from perusing this thread, one statement by IHA stands out.. that they know SA is actively trying to return to Wikipedia, but it isn't them. My question is how they are privvy to that information.

It might have been mentioned here perhaps or IHA may have heard it from someone.

I was informed by a friend who sent me a link to SkepticAnonymous's talk page.

[IhateAccounts]

Unlike others here, I'm inclined to take people at their word until I actually catch them in a lie. Call me names if you want.

So, let me take you at your word, IhateAccounts. The timestamp for your e-mail to arbcom is 9 Feb. Is there a place on the interwebs where on 9 Mar or prior to that you have posted excerpts from that e-mail or repeated the "Justice delayed is still justice denied" quip?

Discord and Twitter come to mind as possibilities.

There is not that I can remember.

[IhateAccounts]

This might not help, IHA, but here's my thoughts on how this all looks to an observer who has seen very little of the evidence first hand.

The observer could believe Beeblebrox. I don't know what others think, but I've known Beeblebrox for a good many years on WP (as has just about everyone here). In my view, he's been among the most open and honest admins and arbs that WP has had (not that I agree with everything he says, just that in my experience he's always been honest about it). Beeblebrox is unusual in being far more open and honest with us here at WO than any other arb would dare (and he's had criticism for it over at WP).

Alternatively, an observer could believe you. After you have turned on and attacked everyone who has tried to help, after you have made scurrilous accusations against everyone who doesn't agree with you. You, who puts it down to anti-LGBT persecution, who claims that Wikipedia has a hidden policy of refusing admin to anyone who consorts with the LGBT crowd. And that Wikipedia has an institutional hatred of non-binary people (despite the number of non-binary people who are and have been admins and arbitrators).

Can you see how such an observer might not find the choice too difficult?

I obviously don't know for sure what's happened here. But there's a troll somewhere who's loving every minute of it. How far away that troll actually is... well, that's the question.

What it feels like to me is Beeblebrox is saying that "it doesn't matter what happened to them to push them over the brink and into lashing out, what matters is that after being pushed over the brink they lashed out."

Or in simpler terms, "how they reacted to being on the receiving end of abuse justifies the abuse they received."

In the spirit of assuming good faith, I'd be happy to have Beeblebrox either confirm my understanding of this, or offer his own way of saying how he wants his words thus far to be received if I am misunderstanding it.

[iii]

There is not that I can remember.

Fair enough. It's not possible to search your tweets because your account is suspended. Discord messages are similarly unavailable. We don't know.

If we spin a hypothesis that the troll was lurking at either location and you stated that thing, this is a fairly straightforward explanation. But even if the worst case scenario is correct and we have a troll who has access to one of those lists, this is kinda par for the course. WP and the internet in general is not a safespace by any measure.

What I'll point out here is that the troll got what it wanted: you are now sufficiently gaslit and goaded into mooning the jury (WP:BUTT (T-H-L)) to the extent that any return is going to be arduous.

But not impossible. The question I still don't know the answer to is why do you want to go back? Was all this really worth it?

[IhateAccounts]

I don't generally condone taking over blocks as a committee, unless there are good offwiki reasons.

Abuse at the committee is something we just deal with.

I absolutely agree with Beebs on the emails though. IHA, check what you sent on Sunday, March 21, 2021 2:19 PM, if it helps

I did not send anything to the arbitration committee on Sunday, March 21, 2021.

[IhateAccounts]

There is not that I can remember.

Fair enough. It's not possible to search your tweets because your account is suspended. Discord messages are similarly unavailable. We don't know.

If we spin a hypothesis that the troll was lurking at either location and you stated that thing, this is a fairly straightforward explanation. But even if the worst case scenario is correct and we have a troll who has access to one of those lists, this is kinda par for the course. WP and the internet in general is not a safespace by any measure.

What I'll point out here is that the troll got what it wanted: you are now sufficiently gaslit and goaded into mooning the jury (WP:BUTT (T-H-L)) to the extent that any return is going to be arduous.

But not impossible. The question I still don't know the answer to is why do you want to go back? Was all this really worth it?

Part of me wants to clear my name, even for a username that is on wikipedia. It's deeply hurtful to be falsely accused of being someone else.

Part is maybe to prove MJL, or at least the version of MJL that I thought existed, right. MJL kept telling me to "trust the process" while telling me not to comment on the SPI, until I was locked off from even the chance to do it.

Beyond that, actually researching things and contributing sources and information was something I felt useful doing.

I'll admit, have admitted, my part of lashing out after being pushed over the brink. I was pushed over the brink. I lashed out. I don't think that justifies what was done to me that pushed me over the brink, but I lashed out. I will do my level best not to lash out like that again.

[turnedworm]

I don't generally condone taking over blocks as a committee, unless there are good offwiki reasons.

Abuse at the committee is something we just deal with.

I absolutely agree with Beebs on the emails though. IHA, check what you sent on Sunday, March 21, 2021 2:19 PM, if it helps

I did not send anything to the arbitration committee on Sunday, March 21, 2021.

Sorry, you are right. You sent that to Someone. I cannot see who. But you did go on to send it to us on the 28th March.

[iii]

Part of me wants to clear my name, even for a username that is on wikipedia. It's deeply hurtful to be falsely accused of being someone else.

Well, I get that. But in the long view it may be that this isn't so important. People are accused of all sorts of things that are worse than being someone else. WP is a place where joe jobs and false accusations abound! You are in good company. Justice can possibly be served just as well as you letting people know your story. Getting that website to say "you're right" is an uphill battle with very little upside. Just search through the archives here if you don't believe me.

Part is maybe to prove MJL, or at least the version of MJL that I thought existed, right. MJL kept telling me to "trust the process" while telling me not to comment on the SPI, until I was locked off from even the chance to do it.

We call those types the "Kool-Aid drinkers". It's not that this is necessarily bad advice, even. It's just that once you land on "the other side", the process will railroad you. Trusting the process is basically irrelevant now. The real process is to decide what the best course of action for you as a person is. If you can, I would hope that you could leave the rest of the Wikipedia-ness left to a failed experiment. You can even return with this attitude. In fact, it may make your stay a bit less turbulent.

Beyond that, actually researching things and contributing sources and information was something I felt useful doing.

That's the addictive aspect that catches a lot of the people here and everywhere (even those who are loath to admit it). So you want to go back and do stuff like that. This is fine. That is something we could probably work with. The key will be to ignore essentially all the other stuff. And now you'll have some extra baggage to deal with because people will want to know why you were so abusive to arbcom (poor babies) or why you personalized things that earlier time (in spite of that not being your indeff rationale) or why you hurled abuse with Twitter (in spite of what happens off-wiki ostensibly being allowed to stay off-wiki). Each of those complaints are traps, but they're traps that you'll need to come to terms with if unblocking is what you want. The basic answer to each of them is that you don't care about that stuff anymore. You don't want to interact with arbcom or Trust & Safety. You're no longer interested in "calling in" the movement or whatever. You just want to contribute and keep your head down. That's the sort of narrative you'll have to tell if you want to be unblocked. If you can't say that narrative truthfully, then the unblock is probably not worth it. Not because you don't deserve it but because to pursue justice or vindication you'll necessarily need to separate yourself from that website.

You can be an effective critic of WP from the outside if that's important to you. Or you can let a lot of this drop and contribute stuff to this exploitative website that, for better or worse, remains a trend-setter in internet "knowledge".

I'll admit, have admitted, my part of lashing out after being pushed over the brink. I was pushed over the brink. I lashed out. I don't think that justifies what was done to me that pushed me over the brink, but I lashed out. I will do my level best not to lash out like that again.

Yeah, that's a good start. You may need to say a bit more about what explicitly you will do to avoid that. I mean, you are likely to get this kind of abuse again and perhaps even worse. Since whoever is trolling you knows they can get a rise, they're going to try their damnedest to get one again. Is that worth it? If it is, can you deal with that?

[Boing! said Zebedee]

Just an observation...

The person operating the <IHAFAG@protonmail.com> email account is not very good at security. And what it is possible to see there does not tie in with what has been claimed here.

In short, our friend IHA faked all bar one of the messages they claim came from that account.

[Capeo]

Just an observation...

The person operating the <IHAFAG@protonmail.com> email account is not very good at security. And what it is possible to see there does not tie in with what has been claimed here.

In short, our friend IHA faked all bar one of the messages they claim came from that account.

And seeing as IHA says in an email above that their email address is the same as their user name that one real email could have come from a garden variety troll who guessed their email.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

Just an observation...

The person operating the <IHAFAG@protonmail.com> email account is not very good at security. And what it is possible to see there does not tie in with what has been claimed here.

In short, our friend IHA faked all bar one of the messages they claim came from that account.

And seeing as IHA says in an email above that their email address is the same as their user name that one real email could have come from a garden variety troll who guessed their email.

Or it could have come from IHA to provide a template to use to fake all the others.

[Beeblebrox]

*I agree with Worm that it isn't necessary to actually publish the other emails. It's just more of the same verbal abuse.

*Once someone calls me a gaybashing nazi, I don't feel I owe them anything at all regardless.

*If they believe anything that they said, that WP is an anti-queer hate site run by nazis, why do they want back in anyway? I'd take it as a badge of honor to be rejected by such people.

*A checkuser block does not mean CU is the one and only reason behind the block. Indeed, the CU policy requires that there be a behavioral reason to use the tool in the first place. Look at SA's talk page comments right after being blocked, then look at IHA's emails and comments here. Tell me they aren't speaking in the same voice. First they freak out and accuse everyone of being queerphobic fascists, then they play the victim. That CU confirmed they were in the same general area is just gravy on top of the behavioral evidence.

So my conclusion at this time is that is thread is

[Poetlister]

*A checkuser block does not mean CU is the one and only reason behind the block. Indeed, the CU policy requires that there be a behavioral reason to use the tool in the first place. Look at SA's talk page comments right after being blocked, then look at IHA's emails and comments here. Tell me they aren't speaking in the same voice. First they freak out and accuse everyone of being queerphobic fascists, then they play the victim. That CU confirmed they were in the same general area is just gravy on top of the behavioral evidence.

Tsunami Butler was properly blocked as a sockpuppet. Such determinations are not based on checkuser but on aggressive editing which fits the same pattern as a banned user. Obviously a different person may be involved; the violation is mirroring the behavior of the banned editor. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 11:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It matters very little whether or not SA and IHA are the same person. If they act in the same way, then if one deserves to be blocked so does the other.

[iii]

It matters very little whether or not SA and IHA are the same person.

It is peak WP-ness to block someone for sockpuppetry instead of, y'know, making a clear statement about what is problematic about a certain behavior. Wikipedia punishers seem to like enforcing rules like WP:SOCK (T-H-L) so they don't have to talk about the messiness of interpersonal interactions.

Then WPO is left to deal with the mess.