Fram's RFA

[Carcharoth]

I think the RfA will tank now. What I suspected might happen has happened. Some of those who chose not to participate at the ArbCom case are coming in and having their say, including Drmies, who comes across as bitter but has made a powerful argument about the oversighted edits that will sway people who can't see those edits and have to trust what others say about them, and that will cause enough doubt in some people's minds.

[Alex Shih]

I think the bleeding will stop at around 60%, and starts to bounce back afterwards. In either case, this is a win-win situation; Fram as an admin or Fram not as an admin are both net positive IMO

[Randy from Boise]

Now sitting 47-16-2 (75%) at about 8 am PDT. Support percentage down from 77% last time I checked.

RfB

[Alex Shih]

I've said this before, but Drmies is full of shit, has a lot of dirty laundries and generally edits Wikipedia for (somehow legitimatized) career and financial gain. Just because something was suppressed does not indicate there was wrongdoing; of course he is going to be bitter against Fram

[ArmasRebane]

The opposes are coming in quite fast, but difficult to know when they will peter out. Very difficult to call it, but if the opposes go above 100 it will be difficult. I think it will almost certainly go to a 'crat chat. It is a low blow for the opposes to refer to the draft that Fram rewrote and to refer to the trolling on his talk page, but that is the sort of thing you would expect here.

I don't see this falling below 60% or exceeding 85%.

Usually the pattern is that contested nominations start with strong support, then "bad stuff" starts to be uncovered and the number chips down down down down...

Here, I think these votes will be more akin to a series of samples of a fixed population. We all have our views of Fram and Framgate by now. If Fram passes, it will be because of disgust with Framgate (the Vigilant defense) rather than because of Fram's good deeds and the goodwill generated... In an ordinary test of the question, stripping aside Framgate, he would not pass. Then again, without Framgate he would not need to even run for election, because he already had tools for life, or until the (probably inevitable) detooling two or three years hence...

I think 300+ supports and 100+ opposes are both fairly likely outcomes. Whether it is a straight pass or a decision by the Crats will be the interesting outcome. If it goes to the Crats, I don't know how it ends, because the supports here are apt to be shallowly argued.

RfB

If we take the Floq RFA as an indicator, he'd pass, because weakly-argued supports were found to be worth more than weakly-argued opposes in that instance. ~~~~

[Alex Shih]

I am starting to think this suffered from delayed posting due to (some quite unnecessary) fine-tuning; had this been posted earlier, the support momentum would probably be much higher due to lingering anger toward both WMF and Arbcom.

[Vigilant]

I suspect this is going to end about 70% approve.
After a week or so.

That throws it into 'crat land and we get to do ARBCOM 2 : Electric Boogaloo.
That could drag out the Dramah for another couple of weeks.

While it's fun to watch, I always wonder, "Can anything on wikipedia ever be done competently?", then I lean back in my deck chair, take a long slow pull of my cold beer, eat my HtD popcorn and chortle.

Drag it out, fuckers.
That'll make it better.

[Vigilant]

Even better, if Fram's desysop stands because of the new interpretation and enforcement of WP:ADMINCOND, I suspect the long knives will come out for other admins who've tried to do the right thing in the face of undisclosed paid editors and SPAs.

It'll be a god damned free for all.

[Jans Hammer]

The opposes are coming in quite fast, but difficult to know when they will peter out. Very difficult to call it, but if the opposes go above 100 it will be difficult. I think it will almost certainly go to a 'crat chat. It is a low blow for the opposes to refer to the draft that Fram rewrote and to refer to the trolling on his talk page, but that is the sort of thing you would expect here.

I don't see this falling below 60% or exceeding 85%.

Usually the pattern is that contested nominations start with strong support, then "bad stuff" starts to be uncovered and the number chips down down down down...

Here, I think these votes will be more akin to a series of samples of a fixed population. We all have our views of Fram and Framgate by now. If Fram passes, it will be because of disgust with Framgate (the Vigilant defense) rather than because of Fram's good deeds and the goodwill generated... In an ordinary test of the question, stripping aside Framgate, he would not pass. Then again, without Framgate he would not need to even run for election, because he already had tools for life, or until the (probably inevitable) detooling two or three years hence...

I think 300+ supports and 100+ opposes are both fairly likely outcomes. Whether it is a straight pass or a decision by the Crats will be the interesting outcome. If it goes to the Crats, I don't know how it ends, because the supports here are apt to be shallowly argued.

RfB

Maybe WJBScribe just requests his special tools back and presses the buttons to make Fram an Admin.

[Vigilant]

I think 300+ supports and 100+ opposes are both fairly likely outcomes. Whether it is a straight pass or a decision by the Crats will be the interesting outcome. If it goes to the Crats, I don't know how it ends, because the supports here are apt to be shallowly argued.

You think the SUPPORTS are thinly argued...




The opposes don't cite policy or diffs or anything more cogent or deliberative than, "I fucking hate that guy. He wuz mean to me."

[Osborne]

The opposes don't cite policy or diffs or anything more cogent or deliberative than, "I fucking hate that guy. He wuz mean to me."

[Alex Shih]

Damn, WMF employees, GLAM and Wikidata people are flocking in. DYK regulars that have been regularly antagonized by Fram have not even showed up yet entirely

[Randy from Boise]

I think 300+ supports and 100+ opposes are both fairly likely outcomes. Whether it is a straight pass or a decision by the Crats will be the interesting outcome. If it goes to the Crats, I don't know how it ends, because the supports here are apt to be shallowly argued.

You think the SUPPORTS are thinly argued...



The opposes don't cite policy or diffs or anything more cogent or deliberative than, "I fucking hate that guy. He wuz mean to me."

That's possible. Usually one sees diffs in the Opposes and comments like "Why Not?" in the supports though.

This will be a close result.

Question for chessplayers: how will the Crats resolve it?

My call: 70%+ and he's in... 65-69% and he's not in... He won't go scraping in with 65.2% support...

RfB

[Moral Hazard]

You all have to lower your expectations.

Wikipedia is a ridiculous place filled with brain-damaged people, even more than a day-care center.

[Vigilant]

I think 300+ supports and 100+ opposes are both fairly likely outcomes. Whether it is a straight pass or a decision by the Crats will be the interesting outcome. If it goes to the Crats, I don't know how it ends, because the supports here are apt to be shallowly argued.

You think the SUPPORTS are thinly argued...



The opposes don't cite policy or diffs or anything more cogent or deliberative than, "I fucking hate that guy. He wuz mean to me."

That's possible. Usually one sees diffs in the Opposes and comments like "Why Not?" in the supports though.

This will be a close result.

Question for chessplayers: how will the Crats resolve it?

My call: 70%+ and he's in... 65-69% and he's not in... He won't go scraping in with 65.2% support...

RfB

They'll cave like the quislings they are.

[Vigilant]

Strong Oppose, largely per Drmies. During last year's ArbCom election, Fram—having presumably found Drmies' candidacy to be somehow particularly unpalatable—decided to publicize an alternate account which Drmies had used to support the Wikipedia Education Program, despite Drmies' explanation that doing so would cause "harassment [...] to be exported to [Drmies'] students" ([7], [8]). Fram's actions in the matter were wildly irresponsible, and—done merely as a petty political stunt—entirely unjustifiable; Wikipedia does not need an administrator that deliberately makes one of their colleagues a target for off-wiki harassment because they disagree with their on-wiki conduct or want to sabotage their candidacy for an on-wiki role. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Fram uncovered an undeclared sockpuppet from a serial shithead who is involved in paid COI editing with an external company and university.


Tell me again how the supports are weakly argued...

[Randy from Boise]

8:30 am on the West coast of the USA and it's down to 68%.

Fram is fucked.

RfB

P.S. With the strange bedfellows I have made, I'm now feeling more than a little nauseous myself...

[ArmasRebane]

Even better, if Fram's desysop stands because of the new interpretation and enforcement of WP:ADMINCOND, I suspect the long knives will come out for other admins who've tried to do the right thing in the face of undisclosed paid editors and SPAs.

It'll be a god damned free for all.

All they have to do to avoid that is... not act like Fram, though?

The idea bolstering Fram and many other editors is the belief that people are incapable of producing or administrating good content while ''also'' not being jerks most of the time. The "shop floor talk" metaphor was often used for the Giano/Eric Corbett-type editors, I imagine, because of the tacit recognition most of these people would not survive at a white-collar job if they acted like they do on-wiki in those settings.

Either way, I don't think Fram's RFA will really move the needle one way or another the way you're suggesting.

[C&B]

Tim,

I couldn't possibly be more disgusted with you than I am at this moment.

Yes. It is A Shame but All do Know this.

[Vigilant]

Even better, if Fram's desysop stands because of the new interpretation and enforcement of WP:ADMINCOND, I suspect the long knives will come out for other admins who've tried to do the right thing in the face of undisclosed paid editors and SPAs.

It'll be a god damned free for all.

All they have to do to avoid that is... not act like Fram, though?

The idea bolstering Fram and many other editors is the belief that people are incapable of producing or administrating good content while ''also'' not being jerks most of the time. The "shop floor talk" metaphor was often used for the Giano/Eric Corbett-type editors, I imagine, because of the tacit recognition most of these people would not survive at a white-collar job if they acted like they do on-wiki in those settings.

Either way, I don't think Fram's RFA will really move the needle one way or another the way you're suggesting.

But if they've 'acted like Fram' at any time in the past, there's now a retroactive violation of WP:ADMINCOND and that is a valid reason to desysop, a decision enshrined by the ARBCOM ruling.

I think you have far too much confidence in the average wikirati.
These grudges run deep and they ache to be settled.

[MrErnie]

I don’t think it will pass. Drmies comment was a turning point and probably sinks it.

[Osborne]

The idea bolstering Fram and many other editors is the belief that people are incapable of producing or administrating good content while ''also'' not being jerks most of the time.

The prophet spoke. I believe these are the people, who don't know another way than "also" being jerks.

The "shop floor talk" metaphor was often used for the Giano/Eric Corbett-type editors, I imagine, because of the tacit recognition most of these people would not survive at a white-collar job if they acted like they do on-wiki in those settings.
Either way, I don't think Fram's RFA will really move the needle one way or another the way you're suggesting.

It was the ArbCom case that moved the needle, imo, by multiple arbs saying Fram's behavior was unbecoming of an administrator, and below wp:admincond.

[Jans Hammer]

53 / 29 65% bombing...

[Carcharoth]

I don’t think it will pass. Drmies comment was a turning point and probably sinks it.

Agreed.

[Osborne]

But if they've 'acted like Fram' at any time in the past, there's now a retroactive violation of WP:ADMINCOND and that is a valid reason to desysop, a decision enshrined by the ARBCOM ruling.

Well, if their behavior was previously evaluated in an ArbCom case, then it's very unlikely, it would be re-evaluated. That would be the retroactive application of WP:ADMINCOND.
However, if such behavior was not evaluated in an ArbCom case, and is reported for some reason, then it's up to the active ArbCom to judge, what is a violation. Such judgement was, and will always be subjective, and different with each ArbCom.
I think you confuse the latter - unavoidable subjectivity of judgement -, with the former - ex post facto -.

[Randy from Boise]

53 / 29 65% bombing...

I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far. WMF people are early in their work day, so I don't think this is gonna be Fram's best hour of the day.

The Cabal is gonna flex on this one.

I've decided not to go full on verbose with my opposition, this nomination is gonna burn without a couple more petrol bombs from me.

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

I don’t think it will pass. Drmies comment was a turning point and probably sinks it.

Agreed.

Dutch expatriate sinks Dutch-speaking Belgian's boat.

Discuss.

RfB

[Vigilant]

Oh good, the totally unbiased clerks for the ARBCOM debacle are weighing in.

Oppose per many of the above, particularly Drmies. – bradv 15:58, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

[Zoloft]

Moved RFA posts from previous FRAM topic to here.

[Osborne]

wpo-readers-fram-rfa-day1.png

Showtime.

[Jans Hammer]

Oh good, the totally unbiased clerks for the ARBCOM debacle are weighing in.

Oppose per many of the above, particularly Drmies. – bradv 15:58, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

[Vigilant]

People should read the pages that Kirill and Drmies are hopping mad about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... _from_Fram
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... _to_Drmies

That's Drmies being super butthurt about being caught with an undisclosed sockpuppet that is used to do paid editing.

You can't make this shit up.

Edit:Spelling

[Vigilant]

There's another of your stellar compatriots, Tim.

Oppose. I was going to oppose because of temperament and judgment, but what Fram did to Drmies is beyond any boundaries of decency.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:10, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

When are Raystorm, Courcelles, LauraHale, Bidgee, Leighblackall, Victuallars, Fae going to show up so the coven can be complete?

[Vigilant]

Oppose. Fram's behavior falls far below what what we should accept in our sysop corps.--Jorm (talk) 16:16, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Cool story, bro.


Nice to see you come down on the same side as Mr Scrubby Pad and Bathtub Gin, Tim.

[Osborne]

Oppose. I was going to oppose because of temperament and judgment, but what Fram did to Drmies is beyond any boundaries of decency.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:10, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Bbb23 never had the word "civility" in his dictionary. "MY FRIEND", however...
I assume supporting the arbs' decision is also in his political program. Worth noting, he chimed in on day 1, compared to day 7 of the Floquenbeam RfA.

[Vigilant]

Oppose - Please note that RfA is about whether the community trusts the candidate to use the admin tools. This is not about whether Fram was treated fairly in previous matters, though I believe he has been given a great deal too much rope already and proven that he can't handle the responsibility that goes with being an admin. I personally will never be able to trust his word ever again (see my follow-up to question number 6). Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:24, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE!
START THE ARCANE RIGHTS!

[Vigilant]

Hey Guys...

I'm voting with all of the worst people... Does that make me wrong?
*tilts head like a dog thinking*



I hear there are openings in the Trump administration, Tim.

[Zoloft]

Vote early and often, as they say.

[Randy from Boise]

It's 9:30 in the West and we are at 56-36-1 = 61%

This is gonna end up a TKO, much to my surprise.

The final verdict, not so much.

RfB

[Jans Hammer]

It's 9:30 in the West and we are at 56-36-1 = 61%

This is gonna end up a TKO, much to my surprise.

The final verdict, not so much.

RfB

Indeed. 56 40 58% - this has turned surprisingly quickly. These are by and large people who did not engage in the WMF case just treating the RFA as an RFA.

[GoldenRing]

It's 9:30 in the West and we are at 56-36-1 = 61%

This is gonna end up a TKO, much to my surprise.

Now below 60%. I've said on-wiki that I'll make up my mind over the coming week, but now I'm wondering if I'll get the chance or if this will be withdrawn before 24 hours are up.

[Randy from Boise]

Hey Guys...

I'm voting with all of the worst people... Does that make me wrong?
*tilts head like a dog thinking*

I hear there are openings in the Trump administration, Tim.

Vig, here is something for you to consider. I realize that the bile is flowing now and I understand your position; so bookmark this comment and come back to it in two weeks or a month.

Principle in my case was as follows: I did everything in my power to fight against the Trust and Safety incursion into En-WP's self-governance even though I personally was perfectly fine with throwing Fram in the woodchipper. I was harshly critical of Arbcom's violation of their own procedures and opined as much on- and off-Wiki multiple times. I remain unshakeably opposed to secret evidence and secret trials, and if the grossly-misnamed Trust and Safety department tries pulling that shit again, I will again take to banging pots and pans in the streets and will make sure the media splash in the mainstream press is bigger... I promise.

That is my duty to principle, complete and total. That is my duty to the rights of the accused.

Arbcom is the community's sole mechanism to rein in bad actors with tools; they found a history of sufficiently and consistently bad behavior to pull tools and refer the matter to the community. This is an open, free, democratic (more or less) plebiscite on the end result of a horrible process.

Now we decide the matter ourselves. No case, just a free and open debate and vote.

And I ain't voting to retool an asshole administrator. Ain't happening. That's my duty to Wikipedia.

RfB

[Alex Shih]

Stranger things have happened; Fram is not the type of person that would just withdraw. I don't think it will fall below 52% (Hawkeye7 3); I expect it to end up around 60%.

[Randy from Boise]

Stranger things have happened; Fram is not the type of person that would just withdraw. I don't think it will fall below 52% (Hawkeye7 3); I expect it to end up around 60%.

I'm super surprised it has fallen as far as it has as fast as it has.

All bets are off, speaking metaphorically.

RfB

[Alex Shih]

Stranger things have happened; Fram is not the type of person that would just withdraw. I don't think it will fall below 52% (Hawkeye7 3); I expect it to end up around 60%.

I'm super surprised it has fallen as far as it has as fast as it has.

All bets are off, speaking metaphorically.

RfB

Not too surprising in hindsight; like I said, Fram doesn't network and doesn't work persistently on maintaining a list of wikifriends; that's what separates them from the likes of Floquenbeam I think

[Randy from Boise]

10 am in the West.

59 - 42 - 3 = 58%

RfB

[Alex Shih]

Appears to be slowing down; now it's time for someone to make one more impassioned speech.

[Randy from Boise]

Appears to be slowing down; now it's time for someone to make one more impassioned speech.

The big first rush is definitely over. Now comes the long, slow ride.

The bottom hasn't completely fallen out yet, but there needs to be something to stem the bleeding. New York Brad jumping in with a speech about how Drmies got it all wrong and Fram is one of his best skateboarding buddies or something like that...

This ratio of 6:4 pro-to-anti-Fram feels like how sentiment was running during the last part of the Framgate debate.

I agree that it probably won't end up too far off the 60% mark.

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

10:30 am in the West and we are

60 - 48 - 2 = 56%

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

11:00 am in the West...

64 -53 - 2 = 55%

Still trending down...

RfB