Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

[mendaliv]

Thinking of just how offensive what Fram said was (in case it’s not clear, what he said is completely unacceptable in the U.S., even if he wasn’t calling Fae that slur), ...

Is it really the case that in America you can't even *say* the word, not even when talking about hypothetical examples of its usage? I'm genuinely surprised (and I suspect Fram would be too). But even then, I can't see how saying the word when not directed at anyone could be seen as harassment.

In my experience, unless you are yourself black, it's offensive to even descriptively use the word. There may be unusual exceptions, such as if The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn were a school reading and the teacher would have to address that word. But I can't think of any circumstance where I could ever say it and realistically get away with it. That's not to say the word isn't used extensively by whites; it's pervasive in online gaming culture especially, along with a lot of alt-right memes. I won't say that using it conclusively identifies you as racist, but it really, really pisses a lot of people off, and makes everyone around the speaker extremely uncomfortable.

I remember a couple years ago there was a kerfuffle about whether it was appropriate for young white women to sing along with music where that word was part of the lyrics. There were loads of opinion pieces authored. One in particular pleaded with white people to stop asking their black friends whether it was okay. I've included a few articles below.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/ ... story.html
https://blavity.com/my-black-friend-sai ... hat-friend
http://theconversation.com/white-people ... down-84673

As a white person, I'm not even going to pretend I know a lot about this. I suppose it's possible that I'm wrong in terms of degree about how offensive the word is to black people. But I would also point out that the discomfort I personally feel when it's said around me is serious. Like I don't even want to be associated with the conversation once it goes that way. So in that vein, I could see taking action because the use of the word could be disruptive in that way as well.

[Randy from Boise]

As to the point about Corbett, my theory is that T&S, for whatever reason, are refraining from retroactive action; c-gate was in, what, 2014? Back then weren't they called SuSa? I don't think Corbett has been quite as easy a target since then.)

Horsefeathers!

linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elizabeth_Mallet[/link]

RfB

In some ways that lends credence to the other possibility: That the FramBan is the beta test of the CorbettBan. It's been exactly four weeks since that exchange, which is how long T&S's turnaround on normal complaints is supposed to be. I guess we'll see.

Well, I'm not boinking any WMF functionaries, so I sort of doubt that a ban forcing him to become a full-time Commons contributor will magically materialize.

Big picture and all joking aside: of course, this will be a tool used to take him out. And you and me for "harassing" the hard-working citizen-scholars at WMF as well, probably.

RfB

[LynnWysong]

Thinking of just how offensive what Fram said was (in case it’s not clear, what he said is completely unacceptable in the U.S., even if he wasn’t calling Fae that slur), ...

Is it really the case that in America you can't even *say* the word, not even when talking about hypothetical examples of its usage? I'm genuinely surprised (and I suspect Fram would be too). But even then, I can't see how saying the word when not directed at anyone could be seen as harassment.

In my experience, unless you are yourself black, it's offensive to even descriptively use the word. There may be unusual exceptions, such as if The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn were a school reading and the teacher would have to address that word. But I can't think of any circumstance where I could ever say it and realistically get away with it. That's not to say the word isn't used extensively by whites; it's pervasive in online gaming culture especially, along with a lot of alt-right memes. I won't say that using it conclusively identifies you as racist, but it really, really pisses a lot of people off, and makes everyone around the speaker extremely uncomfortable.

I remember a couple years ago there was a kerfuffle about whether it was appropriate for young white women to sing along with music where that word was part of the lyrics. There were loads of opinion pieces authored. One in particular pleaded with white people to stop asking their black friends whether it was okay. I've included a few articles below.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/ ... story.html
https://blavity.com/my-black-friend-sai ... hat-friend
http://theconversation.com/white-people ... down-84673

As a white person, I'm not even going to pretend I know a lot about this. I suppose it's possible that I'm wrong in terms of degree about how offensive the word is to black people. But I would also point out that the discomfort I personally feel when it's said around me is serious. Like I don't even want to be associated with the conversation once it goes that way. So in that vein, I could see taking action because the use of the word could be disruptive in that way as well.

It's become a power thing. Black culture has made it plain, "You whites disparaged us with this word for decades, now we own it and if you utter it even in the most innocuous of contexts, you will be vilified." Native Americans are trying to do the same with the word "Squaw," but since that word was not used in the pernicious manner the "N" word was (despite some groups claim that it was) they haven't had the same success, although a lot of geographic names in the U.S. have been changed to use the word (as were many that once used the "N" word, changing it to the less offensive "Negro" such as "Negro Bill Canyon" (You can read more about that here. But that, like the word "Squaw" is still offensive in that it describes people by their race. So, now the debate is whether historical context or political correctness takes precedence.

edit: And by decades, I do mean decades. Although the "N word" has been used much longer, it wasn't until the era of [[Jim Crow laws]] that it was used to denote someone that was so despicable that segregation and a campaign of demoralization was justified. Until then, it was more innocuous, which explains its more accepted use.

[mendaliv]

And you've gotta be careful with "negro". The speed at which that word became offensive is astounding. I was watching a continuing education video the other day and the lawyer giving the lecture was talking about getting an arbitrator recused because he'd used that word to describe someone's client during an arbitration. Apparently everyone was getting that arbitrator removed from their panels after that incident.

[Vigilant]

Well, I'm not boinking any WMF functionaries, so I sort of doubt that a ban forcing him to become a full-time Commons contributor will magically materialize.
RfB

Well, up your game, son.

Nice looking bloke like you, you could do all right.
Dress up nice and go to the next wikimania.
Show a little leg, get some implicit privileges.
Just don't let them shag you on the veranda before you get my account unblocked.
We won't judge you ... much.

Take one for the WO team!

[LynnWysong]

And you've gotta be careful with "negro". The speed at which that word became offensive is astounding. I was watching a continuing education video the other day and the lawyer giving the lecture was talking about getting an arbitrator recused because he'd used that word to describe someone's client during an arbitration. Apparently everyone was getting that arbitrator removed from their panels after that incident.

Yes, I know. The best tactic is to not describe someone by race at all, unless you have to supply a physical or cultural description, and then you should describe the region their race originated from. My grandmother could get away with using "Negro" but I would expect someone who is on an arbitration panel should be astute enough to know better.

[Disgruntled haddock]

That Corbett exchange got me thinking. Maybe someone has mentioned this already, but to what extent is this whole debacle the expression of the WMF’s displeasure wrt the community’s “fuck off” RfC? “Fuck” is parola franca online so I certainly hope that’s not what the WMF is playing at, but…

[Kumioko]

Well, I'm not boinking any WMF functionaries, so I sort of doubt that a ban forcing him to become a full-time Commons contributor will magically materialize.
RfB

Well, up your game, son.

Nice looking bloke like you, you could do all right.
Dress up nice and go to the next wikimania.
Show a little leg, get some implicit privileges.
Just don't let them shag you on the veranda before you get my account unblocked.
We won't judge you ... much.

Take one for the WO team!

Oliver Keyes got a date, you ca too. Don't give up hope.

[Ming]

That Corbett exchange got me thinking. Maybe someone has mentioned this already, but to what extent is this whole debacle the expression of the WMF’s displeasure wrt the community’s “fuck off” RfC? “Fuck” is parola franca online so I certainly hope that’s not what the WMF is playing at, but…

Well, there is something to be said for T&S having waded into the midst of that and saying, "look, this discussion shows you guys can't be trusted to police the place; we're taking over." It would have given rise to revolt, but their assumed role as the adults in the house would have been a lot more supportable. As it is, they missed their chance, and now in this incident the claims about Fram's behavior have lost any punch they might have had given that the community has authorized everyone else to act as badly as he supposedly has acted. Nobody is taking them seriously because there aren't a dozen other admins getting the boot at the same time and for the same reasons.

[MrErnie]

Jehochman’s evidence turns out to be....the Laura Hale stuff. Somebody play that disappointment horn.

[Vigilant]

Jehochman’s evidence turns out to be....the Laura Hale stuff. Somebody play that disappointment horn.

Womp, womp, womp.

That little dipshit couldn’t find his ass with both hands.

[Randy from Boise]

It's become a power thing. Black culture has made it plain, "You whites disparaged us with this word for decades, now we own it and if you utter it even in the most innocuous of contexts, you will be vilified."

I agree in general but that's not exactly right as anyone who has watched World Star Hip Hop street fighting videos can attest.* But the word in virtually all contexts, outside of rigid academic discourse on the one hand and trying to intimidate another white person in a fight on the other, has become toxically radioactive in all usages. Which is fine.

RfB




* - Yeah, yeah, not the same word if it ends in an --A... Right, sure, whatever...

[Moral Hazard]

Thinking of just how offensive what Fram said was (in case it’s not clear, what he said is completely unacceptable in the U.S., even if he wasn’t calling Fae that slur), ...

Is it really the case that in America you can't even *say* the word, not even when talking about hypothetical examples of its usage? I'm genuinely surprised (and I suspect Fram would be too). But even then, I can't see how saying the word when not directed at anyone could be seen as harassment.

I was once the only white kid playing on a softball team of Black kids.

Friend: Then he called me a "nigger", and
KW: Wait, he called you a "nigger"?. That's terrible. What a dick!
Friend: You can never say that word.
KW: Okay. I am sorry.

[mendaliv]

Somebody play that disappointment horn.

Honestly the disappointment horn being played for the West Indies cricket team and people trying to do reporting on SCOTUS decisions this morning would drown it out. What a crazy day already.

[WBG]

Honestly the disappointment horn being played for the West Indies cricket team ...

Disappointed to see the West Indies' performance? Looks fairly par to me.

[Poetlister]

It is a problem that, as Oscar Wilde said, "we have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language". It is unfair to castigate someone who says something quite unexceptionable in English because it is offensive in American.

[TheElusiveClaw]

First time poster, long time reader.

Has BU Rob13 always been this completely insufferable or is this a new thing?

He's been an utterly incomprehensible double-ended prick for as long as I've seen him on there, a long time before be was an Arb

[mendaliv]

Honestly the disappointment horn being played for the West Indies cricket team ...

Disappointed to see the West Indies' performance? Looks fairly par to me.

Bumrah is about to deliver his hat trick ball.

Edit to add: Nope, no hat trick.

[WBG]

Jehochman’s evidence turns out to be....the Laura Hale stuff. Somebody play that disappointment horn.

Our Junior Poirot will need another day and another place, to prove his mettle.

Spent the first day vilifying the WMF and asking Jan about what he learnt in college. The next day, about how he has got hold of the key to this case but won't divulge the secrets. And, the next, revealing that there's nothing except LauraHale and fuck Arbcom.
Someone read him the Dunning–Kruger effect.

[mendaliv]

Spent the first day vilifying the WMF and asking Jan about what he learnt in college. The next day, about how he has got hold of the key to this case but won't divulge the secrets. And, the next, revealing that there's nothing except LauraHale and fuck Arbcom.

Well, on the plus side, it kept things lively for another day.

[WBG]

Honestly the disappointment horn being played for the West Indies cricket team ...

Disappointed to see the West Indies' performance? Looks fairly par to me.

Bumrah is about to deliver his hat trick ball.

Edit to add: Nope, no hat trick.

Excellent, that hat-trick delivery was but alas! :-( And, a double wicket maiden!

[Vigilant]

Spent the first day vilifying the WMF and asking Jan about what he learnt in college. The next day, about how he has got hold of the key to this case but won't divulge the secrets. And, the next, revealing that there's nothing except LauraHale and fuck Arbcom.

Well, on the plus side, it kept things lively for another day.

Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll go play in traffic later.

[mendaliv]

Spent the first day vilifying the WMF and asking Jan about what he learnt in college. The next day, about how he has got hold of the key to this case but won't divulge the secrets. And, the next, revealing that there's nothing except LauraHale and fuck Arbcom.

Well, on the plus side, it kept things lively for another day.

Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll go play in traffic later.

Now now, he’s going to use statistical analysis and the asphalt interaction tool to determine what lanes will be safest to play in. I’m sure everything will be fine.

[Vigilant]

Spent the first day vilifying the WMF and asking Jan about what he learnt in college. The next day, about how he has got hold of the key to this case but won't divulge the secrets. And, the next, revealing that there's nothing except LauraHale and fuck Arbcom.

Well, on the plus side, it kept things lively for another day.

Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll go play in traffic later.

Now now, he’s going to use statistical analysis and the asphalt interaction tool to determine what lanes will be safest to play in. I’m sure everything will be fine.

WP:PROJECTSTHATSHOULDBEENCOURAGED

[Vigilant]

Hochmann's thesis.
It's no wonder he's self-employed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 31#Summary

Summary
I have received permission by email to post any info that's public. Here the chain of incidents that appears to be what the WMF ban is based on. They probably have more, but this is some of what we can see:

1. Fram hounds LauraHale to the point that she posts this notice in 2018. It's still up as of 2019, apparently still an unresolved problem because the notice is still there: [53]

2. Lets look at a few examples of the hounding:
* 12 Aug 2016 [54][55] [56]
* 16 Oct 2016 [57]
* 19 Oct 2016 [58]
* 27 Oct 2016 [59][60][61]

3. The user's wikifriend comes to her defense. Note that Raystorm is Chair of the WMF Board of Trustees: [62]

4. Here's Ymblanter crossing some red lines in support of Fram's hounding. At least Ymblanter had the sense to remove his post: [63][64]

5. Here's Fram continuing to bother LauraHale in 2018: [65] (several diffs rolled in one)

6. LauraHale defends herself in 2018: [66] The fact that this has to happen should have been the point where Fram was de-sysopped. We failed LauraHale as a community. Read the notice again, [67] it provides more context and diffs and mentions SlimVirgin, Victuallers and SkyHarbor.

Some evidence regarding @Winged Blades of Godric: [68][69][70] (ping Rosiestep)

I've been told the above was a useful summary, so I'll leave it here for the record. Jehochman Talk 15:15, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

You were lied to about this being useful.

This is old news that WO covered two weeks ago.
Laura Hale is a serial liar, probably pathological, with a long, long history of infiltrating stupid wiki communities and then blowing them up.
You sad fuckers got played so hard.

And 'wikifriend' is a soft play for 'fuckbuddy'.

You're a garbage investigator, Jonathan, but then nobody is surprised by this revelation.

[lonza leggiera]

I think you're correct that the smoking gun is what Iridescent identified at the very start of all this -

The only dispute I can see Fram involved in in the last couple of months was Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks#Harassment, mocking or otherwise disrespecting someone on the basis of gender identification and pronoun preference, and frankly if the WMF banned everyone Fae made accusations against we'd have about three editors left. (Plus, if they were genuinely looking for a mechanism to get rid of editors the WMF didn't like but whom the community refused to ban, it beggars belief their fancy WP:OFFICE laser cannon wouldn't be fired squarely at Eric Corbett.) ‑ Iridescent 21:44, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that Fae has enough influence at WMF to get Fram blocked? And for a year for that offence?

Well, I honestly don’t think Fae is the complainant. Thinking of just how offensive what Fram said was (in case it’s not clear, what he said is completely unacceptable in the U.S., even if he wasn’t calling Fae that slur), I think any person that saw that and took offense could have reported it. …

The problem with this is that Fram is a Belgian whose native language is Dutch. If I, as a native English-speaking Australian, can be so flabbergasted that anyone would consider Fram's using the word in the way he did as being offensive, I don't see how he could be expected to know that it was.

The proper way of handling this would not have been to run off in a high dudgeon to the authorities, but to make it clear to Fram—without becoming confrontational—that, as ridiculous as it may seem to him, his use of the word was, in fact, highly offensive to Americans.

[Vigilant]

Now the little turd has started a second ARBCOM case about Fram...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... /Case#Fram

[Notbutforthesalt]

I always thought Jehochman was an idiot but this takes the cake. Did he really wander in late to the mob, shout "I FOUND DA PROOFZ", and after being berated to actually show his work drop shit everyone knew about for weeks? And THEN when people rightly dismissed his idiocy forum shop and run to arb?

He is thick? Did he not literally see the open case above? Can someone please leash him?

[mendaliv]

Yeah, the step to opening a case request was really weird, especially while still refusing to disclose the material. His first step should have been e-mailing it to the Committee if he thought it was sensitive. I don't know if that's the result of not knowing ArbCom procedure or something else.

That said, it has kept things from settling down, which is overall a positive thing. The concentrated frustration will erode any remaining confidence fence-riders have in ArbCom and WMF. Particularly in the lead-up to this "moderated RfC".

[Sophie]

Notbutforthesalt wrote:
First time poster, long time reader.

Has BU Rob13 always been this completely insufferable or is this a new thing?

He's been an utterly incomprehensible double-ended prick for as long as I've seen him on there, a long time before be was an Arb

Wholeheartedly agree. It's more than likely he was involved in triggering this latest drama in some way; his resignation, then meltdown coupled with 'oh, woe is me, I'm a victim' essay (now deleted) suggest he realised yet another of his actions was about to backfire on him. Since then, despite claiming he is too 'frightened' and 'fearing for his safety', he is desperately watching and constantly commenting, which smacks of trying to make sure he's not implicated.

But, never mind, his ex-colleagues on ArbCom will close ranks to ensure he is protected.

[The Devil's Advocate]

First major media coverage.

[Disgruntled haddock]

Seems Mr. Rob talked with Buzzfeed personally. Interesting.

[Bezdomni]

First major media coverage.

[O]ne of the standards admins prize, prolificacy, can be counterproductive.

Wa, that's quite a word: productivity with a profligate twist?

[mendaliv]

First major media coverage.

Oh that's such crap, the culture wars have been on enwiki since before American Politics 2 in 2015. In fact, the overreach in scope of that DS regime is simply because nobody could figure out how to express that it's a DS for culture wars topics.

[Vigilant]

Seems Mr. Rob talked with Buzzfeed personally. Interesting.

I've got a shiny dollar says that someone went to T&S and now the media and doesn't want anyone inside en.wp to know.

Katie gets a nod!

“He’s like Inspector Javert,” one Wikipedian wrote of Fram recently, comparing him to the ruthless and inflexible antagonist of Les Misérables.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10443&start=50

I feel sorry for Fram, this ban is obviously unjust. I am not the biggest fan of him, he's like Inspector Javert at times, but no one deserves to be banned merely for criticising ArbCom.

Way to go, I-da-ho!

[tarantino]

Well, I honestly don’t think Fae is the complainant. Thinking of just how offensive what Fram said was (in case it’s not clear, what he said is completely unacceptable in the U.S., even if he wasn’t calling Fae that slur), I think any person that saw that and took offense could have reported it. …

Well Fæ did complain to trust and safety four weeks before Fram's ban.

Death threat

A few minutes ago the following was posted on my Commons user talk page: There are only two genders. "Singular they" is incorrect English. Fascist freaks like you should literally all be rounded up and shot.

The timing makes me believe that this is someone watching the Wikipedia discussions related to the Women in Red project and the recent policy discussion for interpreting NPA.

If anyone that follows my talk page can think of any information that may help positively identify the puppet master for User:Oisehuck, User:Idylsara, or other accounts that have made death threats directed at me in the last couple of months and made offensive claims about non-binary gender, I would appreciate a confidential email or you can contact m:Meta:Trust and Safety without talking to me if you prefer. The WMF T&S team has some evidence of previous cases as unfortunately this is not the first time.

Thanks in advance for any help or evidence you can provide. --Fæ (talk) 15:14, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

[MrErnie]

First major media coverage.

In general I thought it was a fair article. But I think calling Fae a “high-profile transgender editor” is a glaring oversight. Fae is gay, not trans, correct? Somewhat ironically, this author is now guilty of misgendering and therefore harassment. Also Rob’s continued behavior in this saga really makes him look like a fool.

[Notbutforthesalt]

Fae invents new reasons to be offended.

[Sophie]

A much quieter group in the community were thankful for the ban. BU Rob13, a former member of ArbCom who recently retired from administration, said that Fram’s behavior toward him, including “taking shots” at him in an edit summary and following him to unrelated cases, felt like harassment.

“These actions, and the Arbitration Committee's failure to act promptly in condemning them, were a major factor that led to my resignation,” BU Rob13 told BuzzFeed News. “It is also a major reason why I no longer believe the current Arbitration Committee can handle harassment.”

And there we have it - BU Rob13 admits he considered Fram's treatment of him 'felt like harassment'.... .... doesn't take much to join the dots to arrive at who, in his privileged position of being a member of ArbCom, kept directing WMF T&S towards Fram, does it?

[Notbutforthesalt]

Quick, get this outta here before anybody starts thinking critically. Please unhat and allow people to comment and for arbitrators to think whether they want to be WMF’s underlings or if they should represent the community that elected them. This is so depressing. Jehochman Talk 19:22, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Dipshit STILL hasn't gotten the message.

[mendaliv]

Quick, get this outta here before anybody starts thinking critically. Please unhat and allow people to comment and for arbitrators to think whether they want to be WMF’s underlings or if they should represent the community that elected them. This is so depressing. Jehochman Talk 19:22, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Dipshit STILL hasn't gotten the message.

Holy crap he posted it below the hatted case request outside of any section for him to comment. Someone needs to clerk that shit.

[Poetlister]

Death threat

A few minutes ago the following was posted on my Commons user talk page: There are only two genders. "Singular they" is incorrect English. Fascist freaks like you should literally all be rounded up and shot.

Singular they is recognised English and has been for centuries. And threats of violence like that deserve at least a block.

[LynnWysong]

I think you're correct that the smoking gun is what Iridescent identified at the very start of all this -

The only dispute I can see Fram involved in in the last couple of months was Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks#Harassment, mocking or otherwise disrespecting someone on the basis of gender identification and pronoun preference, and frankly if the WMF banned everyone Fae made accusations against we'd have about three editors left. (Plus, if they were genuinely looking for a mechanism to get rid of editors the WMF didn't like but whom the community refused to ban, it beggars belief their fancy WP:OFFICE laser cannon wouldn't be fired squarely at Eric Corbett.) ‑ Iridescent 21:44, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that Fae has enough influence at WMF to get Fram blocked? And for a year for that offence?

Well, I honestly don’t think Fae is the complainant. Thinking of just how offensive what Fram said was (in case it’s not clear, what he said is completely unacceptable in the U.S., even if he wasn’t calling Fae that slur), I think any person that saw that and took offense could have reported it. …

The problem with this is that Fram is a Belgian whose native language is Dutch. If I, as a native English-speaking Australian, can be so flabbergasted that anyone would consider Fram's using the word in the way he did as being offensive, I don't see how he could be expected to know that it was.

The proper way of handling this would not have been to run off in a high dudgeon to the authorities, but to make it clear to Fram—without becoming confrontational—that, as ridiculous as it may seem to him, his use of the word was, in fact, highly offensive to Americans.

It's actually not highly offensive to me as an American - what is offensive to me is the fear that people now have over the simple utterance of a word.

[DanMurphy]

Just so I'm clear, is this what people have been talking about for the past 20 or so comments?

"If you want to continue arguing that "Xe" is always civil to use": strawman argument. I have never argued that "xe is always civil to use". On the contrary, I have made statements like "If this was the intention, then it was insulting you, mocking you, and can be argued that it mocked your gender. That still doesn't mean that it "misgendered" you." right above. I am not going to spend time defending a position I never argued in the first place. Look at it from a different perspective: if I were to call an African-American "white", I would be mis-racing them (comparable to misgendering). If I were to call them "nigger", I would not been "mis-racing" them, but I would be extremely insulting anyway and would deserve an instant block for personal attacks. Similarly, arguing that "xe" is not misgendering you doesn't mean that it is always acceptable or civil to use (although I haven't seen any evidence that it carries the negative connotation the N word has). Whether it is civil to use depends on the context and the intention, but it is not ''inherently'' uncivil, and it is not misgendering when used in lieu of another genderneutral pronoun, ''even if you prefer that other pronoun''. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 15:08, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Fram's use of "nigger" in this context is not remotely offensive, at least among thinking adults.

[Vigilant]

Just so I'm clear, is this what people have been talking about for the past 20 or so comments?

"If you want to continue arguing that "Xe" is always civil to use": strawman argument. I have never argued that "xe is always civil to use". On the contrary, I have made statements like "If this was the intention, then it was insulting you, mocking you, and can be argued that it mocked your gender. That still doesn't mean that it "misgendered" you." right above. I am not going to spend time defending a position I never argued in the first place. Look at it from a different perspective: if I were to call an African-American "white", I would be mis-racing them (comparable to misgendering). If I were to call them "nigger", I would not been "mis-racing" them, but I would be extremely insulting anyway and would deserve an instant block for personal attacks. Similarly, arguing that "xe" is not misgendering you doesn't mean that it is always acceptable or civil to use (although I haven't seen any evidence that it carries the negative connotation the N word has). Whether it is civil to use depends on the context and the intention, but it is not ''inherently'' uncivil, and it is not misgendering when used in lieu of another genderneutral pronoun, ''even if you prefer that other pronoun''. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 15:08, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Fram's use of "nigger" in this context is not remotely offensive, at least among thinking adults.

Precisely.

This is "looking for a reason to be offended to get my way" bullshit.

[Vigilant]

Well, I'm not boinking any WMF functionaries, so I sort of doubt that a ban forcing him to become a full-time Commons contributor will magically materialize.
RfB

Well, up your game, son.

Nice looking bloke like you, you could do all right.
Dress up nice and go to the next wikimania.
Show a little leg, get some implicit privileges.
Just don't let them shag you on the veranda before you get my account unblocked.
We won't judge you ... much.

Take one for the WO team!

Oliver Keyes got a date, you ca too. Don't give up hope.

Dude.
Cold.

[Poetlister]

Fram's use of "nigger" in this context is not remotely offensive, at least among thinking adults.

We don't just need the thinking adults. We need a majority.

[mendaliv]

And now we have a MOS incident lmao
diff
diff

[Randy from Boise]

First time poster, long time reader.

Has BU Rob13 always been this completely insufferable or is this a new thing?

He's been an utterly incomprehensible double-ended prick for as long as I've seen him on there, a long time before be was an Arb

It would be really interesting to learn his first WP identity. That would explain much. If WMF was growing their dream Wikipedian in a petri dish from the stem cells of the aborted fetuses of free-range bureaucrats, the result generated would probably resemble him.

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

Just so I'm clear, is this what people have been talking about for the past 20 or so comments?

"If you want to continue arguing that "Xe" is always civil to use": strawman argument. I have never argued that "xe is always civil to use". On the contrary, I have made statements like "If this was the intention, then it was insulting you, mocking you, and can be argued that it mocked your gender. That still doesn't mean that it "misgendered" you." right above. I am not going to spend time defending a position I never argued in the first place. Look at it from a different perspective: if I were to call an African-American "white", I would be mis-racing them (comparable to misgendering). If I were to call them "nigger", I would not been "mis-racing" them, but I would be extremely insulting anyway and would deserve an instant block for personal attacks. Similarly, arguing that "xe" is not misgendering you doesn't mean that it is always acceptable or civil to use (although I haven't seen any evidence that it carries the negative connotation the N word has). Whether it is civil to use depends on the context and the intention, but it is not ''inherently'' uncivil, and it is not misgendering when used in lieu of another genderneutral pronoun, ''even if you prefer that other pronoun''. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 15:08, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Fram's use of "nigger" in this context is not remotely offensive, at least among thinking adults.

Then again, the San Francisco school board is gonna spend $600,000+ to paint over a depression-era WPA fresco in one of the city's high schools because the slavery and violence of early America are not conducive to establishing a safe space for the children.

Fucking retards. No, there are not many "thinking adults" in the world these days.

RfB

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