Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:48 pm

She's an admin on fr.wp
fr.wikipedia.org 23:16, 8 January 2009 home wiki(?) — 15,325 sysop
She sure gets the WMF to pay for a lot of her trips...

https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?t ... :L%C3%A9na
Events
Event Type Localization Date Funding ( Travel + Host + Food ) Host Involvment
2019
Hackathon 2019 Hackathon Praha 2019-05-17
20 ans du musée Conférence Nancy 2019-04-29 musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy organized
20 ans du musée Atelier de contribution Nancy 2019-04-28 musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy organized
Age of Classics Atelier de contribution Toulouse 2019-03-30 musée Saint-Raymond
Formation musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy Formation Nancy 2019-03-25 musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy organized
Femmes de terrains Atelier de contribution Paris 2019-03-23 quai Branly
Femmes scientifiques sortent de l'ombre Toulouse 2019-03-08 quai des Savoirs quai des Savoirs organized
2018
Wikiconvention francophone 2018 Conférence Wikimédia France
Wikimania Wikimania Cape Town Wikimedia Foundation
Hackathon Wikimania Hackathon Cape Town Wikimedia Foundation Wikimedia Canada
Journées de l'archéologie Atelier de contribution Toulouse musée Saint-Raymond
Hackathon 2018 Hackathon Wikimedia France Amical Wikimedia
Atelier de contributions LGBT Atelier de contrbution Lyon 2018 Bibliothèques de Lyon organized
2017
Diversity Conference 2017 Conférence Stockholm Wikimedia Sverige Wikimedia Sverige
Wikimania 2017 Conférence Montréal Wikimedia Canada
Hackathon Wikimania 2017 Hackathon Montréal
Hackathon 2017 Hackathon Wien 2017-05-19
Women Pre-Hackathon 2017 Hackathon Wien Wikimedia Österreich
2016
Wikiconvention francophone 2016 Conférence Paris Wikimédia France
2015
Wikimania 2015 Conférence México 2015-07-15 Wikimedia México
Hackathon 2015 Hackathon Lyon 2015-05-22 Wikimédia France
2014
Wikimania 2014 Conférence London 2014-08-06 Wikimedia UK
2013
Diversity Conference 2013 Conférence Berlin 2013-11-09 Wikimedia France Wikimedia DE
2012
Wikimania 2012 Conférence Washington DC 2012-07-12 Wikimedia France Wikimedia DC
2011
Cérémonie Wiki Loves Monuments Paris 2011-12-09 musée de Cluny
Meet-up Rennes Rennes
Meet-up Toulouse Toulouse
Last edited by Vigilant on Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:52 pm

Vigilant wrote:WMF Trust and Safety has driven away a long time contributor.

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92878.html

That letter is poignant in it's innocence and authenticity.

Everyone on T&S needs to be fired and the group should be started over with a manager who has relevant experience in this field.
Worse, this wasn't to do with online behaviour but to physical meet-ups. There's little excuse for the WMF not controlling those.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Catnip the Dwarf » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:56 pm

I don't see the significance of the stuffed animals. Are they hurting anyone? If there's a story behind them, I'd want to know it before judging.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Katie » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:00 pm

I have to agree with Catnip the Dwarf here - she could like them out of a sense of comfort or it could be something therapeutic.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:00 pm

Caroline Becker aka admin Lena on fr.wp has had some allegations of double dealing against her.
(8) Cameleon Software is a software company based in Toulouse. "The user" Gerome.marchisio appears for the first time on April 16, 2009 at 9:33 . At 10:21 he is capable of that , he presents it as a translation ... He brings a final touch to his infomercial on May 6, 2009 and returns for the last time on February 22, 2011 to provide after-sales service . Cameleon Software has nothing to fear on Wikipedia: the administrator Lena ( Caroline Becker ), member of the board of directors of Wikimedia France in 2012, is used and protects the article with his companion Pierre-Selim Huard .
Company was acquired in 2013
https://pros.com/news/pros-announces-pl ... et-leadin/

Article deleted 2016
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discuss ... uppression

now that there's nothing to protect.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:11 pm

Twitter's a hoot.
https://twitter.com/K_rho

https://twitter.com/K_rho/status/1139933442219679744

Here's a retweet by Caroline that seems to overlap with Laura Hale...
https://twitter.com/rebeccacmyers/statu ... 6021578752

ooooo-kay
https://twitter.com/K_rho/status/1129366521233530881

Starting to think Hale and Becker must know each other.
https://twitter.com/K_rho/status/1125427578188238848
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:44 pm

Hmmm... it appears Caroline Becker is a perennial trouble maker and professional victim.

First, the incidents in question, which we recognize
The suffering they caused at Harmonia was reported neither to
Emeric nor to Nathalie, even though the criticisms related to the management
of this incident were formulated almost exclusively
against them. The rest of the Board and the salaried team can also
testify in a personal capacity (as did Jonathan
Balima, accountant of the association, on the list discussions) that if
Nathalie and / or Emeric had been put in time for
Harmonia's state of distress by herself or another person, they would have
done everything possible to find solutions so that
she could participate peacefully in the activities of the weekend.



Secondly, Pierre-Selim Huard and Caroline Becker, who have since
resigned, and strongly criticized the actions of the Board and the management
during this weekend, were present and should have come to the aid of
Harmonia as soon as they became aware of the situation, if
only by warning the management.



Third, this incident was exploited by some
people at the foundation. In fact, we learned by chance during
a working meeting with Delphine Ménard (our Program Officer
for the annual request for funding from the FDC) that an inquiry into
the harassment of Harmonia by Nathalie had been opened by the
foundation, and that we incur the outright withdrawal of our
chapter agreement if these facts were proven. Not only was the CA
not made aware of this investigation, but on the advice of
Christophe Henner (who is not the role), only Caroline Becker
was interviewed. When we reported to the foundation our surprise
that the testimonies of the various parties were not
collected, and that we asked what official procedure of
the foundation framed this investigation, we learned that it
was finally abandoned. These dysfunctional procedures
show, for us, the desire to fuel a controversy aimed at
to weaken our association, but without real foundation.



In addition, we want to say that Caroline Becker is not a "
whistleblower". She did not reveal any danger to the association and
did not try to solve the problem she knew
during the weekend strategy. On the contrary, she made
defamatory remarks against Nathalie, instead of following a normal,
transparent and framed process. Nor did it warn the rest of the Board
of the risks incurred as a result of this investigation.

Pierre-Selim confirmed in writing that he was not aware
of his partner's testimony or the investigation, and acknowledged that Caroline
could not remain on the Board, given her actions.

He finally resigned, his position as a spouse of
Carolina being too difficult to manage, which we respect.

What we do not accept is her public statements and those
of others who distort reality to make Caroline a
victim of the CA.

In addition, after his resignation, Pierre-Sélim used his
"executive" access to the association's data, even though he no longer had
the right to do so. He used this data to signal to members
that several people had been unsubscribed from the list of
discussions, which did not fail to provoke a new wave
of accusations of censorship and authoritarianism.

However, if the CA did, it is in responsibility. Noting the
excesses on the list despite moderation a priori, he decided
in the first place to withdraw the members of their
dues, as he would have been entitled to do for a long time.
No doubt we should have communicated simply and directly on
this fact, but it is not easy when we are taken
aback by attempts to hurt from members with whom we
were still working in good faith very recently in the CA !

Instrumentalization by other actors

Finally, we express our indignation at the fact
that some very virulent attacks on the CA and the
direction emanate from people who, far from pursuing the ideals
they display, try to hide their real motivations and
their conflicts of interest (paid editing, paid training disguised
as volunteering, attempt to retrieve training requests
coming to the association via OTRS to bill them for his
personal activity , etc.). It is clear that these people are seeking to
disavow the Board and management in hopes of continuing or
resuming these questionable practices.

5. The possible creation of an endowment fund



The ongoing reflection in the Board on the consequent share of
lobbying in the activity of the association (and for more fields
wide than the very purpose of Wikimedia France) has led to the study of the
relevance of an endowment fund that would concern all
stakeholders working for free knowledge.

In fact, although lobbying is
widely supported by our members and the community, it
involves many resources that benefit more than the
community of contributors.

Volunteers and employees have therefore conducted
various consultations with experts about
potential endowments, as well as potential funders, who have nothing confidential about them.

Nevertheless, if the choice to create a fund of
staffing with partners was done, the Board should decide on the
creation of such a structure, inform the GA, and depending on the
structure, vote AG. In the context of diversification
of the funds and while the association is in the process of being recognized
as a public utility (OR), this fund could be an idea to be
explored for the financing of WMFr since it could appeal to the
foundations of 'business.



However, this non-confidential study conducted by employees was
presented in a very ambiguous way by Florence Devouard on the list
discussions, which aroused suspicions among other
members. A second mail from Florence, rejected by the moderators
but published on a parallel discussion list, even evokes "a
suspicion of use of the property of the association, the (good) reputation
of the association, for personal indirect purposes".

We strongly condemn what again is an attempt to put
the CA in trouble by unfounded allegations. We
also reaffirm that if members have evidence of wrongdoing,
they are in a position to transmit it to the
competent authorities ; the rest is just so-called and intimidation.

________________________________

Wikimedia France
40 rue de Cléry
75002 Paris
France
www.wikimedia.com
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Carcharoth » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:08 pm

Where is that from (I looked online but could not find it) and when was that written?

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:22 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Where is that from (I looked online but could not find it) and when was that written?
https://lists.gt.net/wiki/foundation/823787

Translated by google.

First date in the page is Jul 11, 2017, 3:25 PM
Last date in the page is Jul 14, 2017, 1:21 AM
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Salvidrim » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:25 pm

Haven't read through the entire e-mail above but the machine translation looks okay. French is usually an easily-machine-translated language. If there is anything you have doubts about lemme know (native French speaker here).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:30 pm

Looks like the WMF is filled to the brim with professional victims who play to T&S to unperson people they don't like.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by The Adversary » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:11 pm

Good lord.
It looks as if people are trying to "out-snowflake" one another.

Where on earth do you find these people?

Actually, in one way I am not surprised. Parts of Europe, especially southern Europe have had a dismal unemployment rate for young people for the last 10 years, or so. (In France, it is about 20 percent)

That, combined with the fact that WMF is rolling in money.......

A NGO I was with has always been very poor...it also has a "flat structure". It worked sort of ok: everyone worked for nothing, or for peanuts. Between 2005 and 2010 it suddenly got a lot of money.....alas, a lot of people started to scrambled for "positions": seriously: that extra money nearly destroyed the NGO. (Thankfully, the money was soon gone, and people went back working for nothing, or for peanuts.)

When I went to school, there was the expression:
"If you can, you do. If you can't, you teach"

Today it is apparently:
"If you can, you do. If you can't, you get a job with WMF"

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:39 pm

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92892.html
I am very sad and depressed with this outcome, especially with someone as
Romaine, which I am quite lucky to know personally.

And it is very true that now one has to have eyes in their back and be
extra careful when going to WMF run events, as the risk of abuse of T&S is
quite real.

Dangerous times.

Paulo

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One of its main tasks was spying on the population, mainly through a vast network of citizens turned informants, and fighting any opposition by overt and covert measures, including hidden psychological destruction of dissidents
When the worm turns
Numerous Stasi officials were prosecuted for their crimes after 1990. After German reunification, the surveillance files that the Stasi had maintained on millions of East Germans were laid open, so that any citizen could inspect their personal file on request
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:17 am

I must be old or have done too many drugs. Or both. Fram has been around for a long long time. You can’t be on Wikipedia for as long as he has and not picked up a few enemies. But someone of that tenure is usually untouchable as long as they mind their Ps and Qs. And 13 pages on a 10 day old topic? That’s gotta be some kind of record.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:27 am

I bet it was a stuffed animal the guy snatched. That makes way too much sense.

n.b., I'm not criticizing her if she does keep them around her for special reasons, nor necessarily saying that having one snatched away by a relative stranger out of curiosity shouldn't upset her. In Victorian times, people might carry a lock of a departed loved one's hair, or even wear accessories made of that hair. I could see someone becoming exceptionally upset at having one of those callously grabbed by an outsider. BUT where the person genuinely didn't know better, and moreover (as in this case) apologizes and has a rational explanation for his behavior (a disability affecting socialization), then being excluded and even shunned is an extreme, unreasonable, and outrageous response for a faux pas like this. And that is what such an act would be: A faux pas.

Honestly I don't even think it's necessary to delve into the disability aspect. Even if it's just the result of someone being rude, it's a faux pas. Morally it doesn't even approach a battery (which is what is effectively being said).
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:34 am

Oh dear. https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92894.html
GorillaWarfare wrote:I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude of other reasons. . . . But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. . . . In my experience they do an extremely good job.
Emphases and ellipses mine. I guess the stereotype of a judicial presumption that the police did no wrong extends to T&S.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:52 am

mendaliv wrote:Oh dear. https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92894.html
GorillaWarfare wrote:I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude of other reasons. . . . But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. . . . In my experience they do an extremely good job.
Emphases and ellipses mine. I guess the stereotype of a judicial presumption that the police did no wrong extends to T&S.
Well, GorillaWarfare has had some regrettable behavior in the past where her personal friendships have clouded her judgement.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:14 am

I mean, you'd think you wouldn't blindly support people based on your experience with them in the same paragraph that you cautioned others for blindly supporting people based on their experience with them.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:23 am

mendaliv wrote:I mean, you'd think you wouldn't blindly support people based on your experience with them in the same paragraph that you cautioned others for blindly supporting people based on their experience with them.
That would require some introspection.

Confirmation bias is a helluva drug.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:08 am

To be fair to Ms. Becker (if that's even possible at this point), the guy does say he has Asperger's. Obviously this isn't a very PC thing to say, but let's face it, that can make people a bit hard to deal with in terms of getting them to stop talking and leave you alone, not to mention getting them to stay out of your personal space. (But really, mostly just to stop talking.)

Of course, probably half the people on Wikipedia have that same problem, so I'm surprised we don't hear more stories like this.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:39 am

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92902.html
Here's a neat wrinkle: That e-mail talking about the WMBE incidents was in fact the personal work of Romaine, and not approved by the WMBE board as a release. That's pretty rotten on his part. I'm feeling a bit less charitable towards him.

Still more charitable towards him than towards T&S though.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:17 am

Vigilant wrote:Looks like the WMF is filled to the brim with professional victims who play to T&S to unperson people they don't like.
Certainly the Wikipedia community has quite a few such people, some of whom we've discussed at length.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:27 am

Fae wrote:As for others making stereotypical statements about "victims" and "perpetrators", just shut up please. This was not a criminal case, the police were not called, and this is not about you and your need for virtue signalling. There are real people involved and the only thing on the table has been an allegation which should have been resolved at the time, not left with toxic fallout that appears to have now damaged the reputations of both parties, along with Wikimedia organizations.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92912.html

Wow.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:19 am

mendaliv wrote:
Fae wrote:As for others making stereotypical statements about "victims" and "perpetrators", just shut up please. This was not a criminal case, the police were not called, and this is not about you and your need for virtue signalling. There are real people involved and the only thing on the table has been an allegation which should have been resolved at the time, not left with toxic fallout that appears to have now damaged the reputations of both parties, along with Wikimedia organizations.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92912.html

Wow.
I'm not usually a fan of Fae, but he's dead right here.
:applause:
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by The Adversary » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:52 pm

In other news, Jimbo just said:
This is an edited version of the key sentences as I would put it myself: "Jimbo's goals then were for the community to be self-sustaining and self-governing such that it would fulfill its mission with less of his involvement as time went on. It was never a goal for the WMF to have any sort of authority over or involvement in community or content decisions beyond the removal of libellous material and copyright violations and other limited actions for public safety of various kinds, which the WMF took on for reasons of compliance." And that isn't the whole of it really, I would also argue that the WMF can and should have a role of facilitating and guiding community consultations to help the community resolve sticky issues where there is a failing of process. Reading between the lines here, you can likely guess my view of the current situation. --[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 11:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
(My bolding)

That begs the question: who decides when there "is a failing of process"???

That (bolded) addition simply negates the first half of the sentence statement.
Last edited by The Adversary on Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:56 pm

The Adversary wrote:In other news, Jimbo just said:
This is an edited version of the key sentences as I would put it myself: "Jimbo's goals then were for the community to be self-sustaining and self-governing such that it would fulfill its mission with less of his involvement as time went on. It was never a goal for the WMF to have any sort of authority over or involvement in community or content decisions beyond the removal of libellous material and copyright violations and other limited actions for public safety of various kinds, which the WMF took on for reasons of compliance." And that isn't the whole of it really, I would also argue that the WMF can and should have a role of facilitating and guiding community consultations to help the community resolve sticky issues where there is a failing of process. Reading between the lines here, you can likely guess my view of the current situation. --[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 11:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
(My bolding)

That begs the question: who decides when there "is a failing of process"???

That (bolded) addition simply negates the first half of the sentence.
Ah yes, banning people "facilitates" and "guides" community consultations. Great job Jimbo. I guess there is a cabal after all.

Seriously, how the hell can you spin secret adjudicative proceedings as assistance to community-driven rulemaking? These are functionally the opposite thing in like three different ways.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:02 pm

mendaliv wrote:
The Adversary wrote:In other news, Jimbo just said:
This is an edited version of the key sentences as I would put it myself: "Jimbo's goals then were for the community to be self-sustaining and self-governing such that it would fulfill its mission with less of his involvement as time went on. It was never a goal for the WMF to have any sort of authority over or involvement in community or content decisions beyond the removal of libellous material and copyright violations and other limited actions for public safety of various kinds, which the WMF took on for reasons of compliance." And that isn't the whole of it really, I would also argue that the WMF can and should have a role of facilitating and guiding community consultations to help the community resolve sticky issues where there is a failing of process. Reading between the lines here, you can likely guess my view of the current situation. --[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 11:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
(My bolding)

That begs the question: who decides when there "is a failing of process"???

That (bolded) addition simply negates the first half of the sentence.
Ah yes, banning people "facilitates" and "guides" community consultations. Great job Jimbo. I guess there is a cabal after all.

Seriously, how the hell can you spin secret adjudicative proceedings as assistance to community-driven rulemaking? These are functionally the opposite thing in like three different ways.
Jimmy Wales has long publicly favored civility purging. Now he has a tool to accomplish that. Undermining and ultimately gutting community decision-making is collateral damage.

He's an idiot.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:54 pm

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92914.html
Robert Fernandez wrote:At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Up until that last sentence, I had no idea which person he was talking about. And I still don't get it. How in the hell is Romaine "Mr. Popular" here?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
I pray this individual never has to see what a lack of due process actually is like. Learn civil procedure. Maybe not perfectly, but get enough of a gist that you understand all the neat procedural protections like a nice long period to respond to a filing (i.e., enough time to find a lawyer, explain the situation, and get the response written) or rules of evidence or the ability to cross-examine witnesses. Then learn administrative adjudicative procedure, especially before state administrative agencies. One agency in California, when they send you a complaint initiating an adjudicative proceeding against you, you have fourteen days to file a response or you default (and you waive any defenses you don't raise in those 14 days)... and the 14 days begins from when they mail the notice, not from when you receive it. Even if you're out-of-state. Try and find a lawyer in that amount of time. Which is a more just system? The one with more procedural trappings, or the one that rushes to a decision?

What's really shitty is that these folks simultaneously understand the importance of Wikimedia for the people involved—safe space stuff to facilitate inclusiveness; they don't want people to feel left out or excluded because their interest is important to the movement and they want to foster it—but are completely oblivious to it—you don't need due process because these people are professionals, they'll do the right thing, and either way this is a volunteer project; if you don't like it, go away, you shouldn't have spent so much time and effort building up a reputation in this movement.

It's like someone read Dworkin's Law's Empire (T-H-L) and thought his all-knowing always-right Judge Hercules was a description of a realistic legal system. Don't bother with process to guide our decisionmakers to the right answer, just go directly to the right answer. But what is the right answer? "I know it when I see it"? Are there are no higher principles than arriving at the "right answer" on a case-by-case basis? Are repeatability and predictability of outcomes not desirable?

Blackstone's Ratio (T-H-L) is more relevant than ever.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:00 pm

mendaliv wrote:https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92914.html
Robert Fernandez wrote:At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Up until that last sentence, I had no idea which person he was talking about. And I still don't get it. How in the hell is Romaine "Mr. Popular" here?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
I pray this individual never has to see what a lack of due process actually is like. Learn civil procedure. Maybe not perfectly, but get enough of a gist that you understand all the neat procedural protections like a nice long period to respond to a filing (i.e., enough time to find a lawyer, explain the situation, and get the response written) or rules of evidence or the ability to cross-examine witnesses. Then learn administrative adjudicative procedure, especially before state administrative agencies. One agency in California, when they send you a complaint initiating an adjudicative proceeding against you, you have fourteen days to file a response or you default (and you waive any defenses you don't raise in those 14 days)... and the 14 days begins from when they mail the notice, not from when you receive it. Even if you're out-of-state. Try and find a lawyer in that amount of time. Which is a more just system? The one with more procedural trappings, or the one that rushes to a decision?

What's really shitty is that these folks simultaneously understand the importance of Wikimedia for the people involved—safe space stuff to facilitate inclusiveness; they don't want people to feel left out or excluded because their interest is important to the movement and they want to foster it—but are completely oblivious to it—you don't need due process because these people are professionals, they'll do the right thing, and either way this is a volunteer project; if you don't like it, go away, you shouldn't have spent so much time and effort building up a reputation in this movement.

It's like someone read Dworkin's Law's Empire (T-H-L) and thought his all-knowing always-right Judge Hercules was a description of a realistic legal system. Don't bother with process to guide our decisionmakers to the right answer, just go directly to the right answer. But what is the right answer? "I know it when I see it"? Are there are no higher principles than arriving at the "right answer" on a case-by-case basis? Are repeatability and predictability of outcomes not desirable?

Blackstone's Ratio (T-H-L) is more relevant than ever.
Yes, yes, yes.

This is only exacerbated by the hiring practices of the WMF.

It's challenging enough for judges to render fair and impartial rulings.
They go through law school, pass the bar, practice as attorneys for years and then go through an election where their record is vetted prior to ever sitting on the bench.

The WMF has hired countless people whose sole qualification is that they spend a lot of time on IRC or vote the way WMF staffers like.

Trust and Safety his hired people with incredibly shady pasts.
None of them have the slightest clue what jurisprudence looks like.

It's as though the WMF hired felons on the premise that they must know how to dispense justice because they've seen the justice system first hand.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Carcharoth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:14 pm

Meanwhile, back in the Kafkaesque 'asylum', an update from Jan Eissfeldt, with this being the key bit as regards the precipitating incident:
Jan Eissfeldt wrote:We are aware that proposals have been made that suggest the lifting of the ban on Fram in exchange for varying adjustments, such as the opening of an ArbCom case or the imposition of interaction bans. While we appreciate Fram and other volunteers exploring possible compromises, Foundation bans are non-appealable. I know that is, itself, a point of disagreement for many in the community; however, the policies governing T&S work are clear on this point. I appreciate in particular the idea put forward by Newyorkbrad and his having been explicit that it could only be valid if it is true that the community has reached accurate conclusions about the facts of the case. However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB’s condition is not met.
Momentum on the community side has slowed a lot. Looks like either an endgame is being played out, or things may ramp up again at some point. This whole episode will have far-reaching consequences either way.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Meanwhile, back in the Kafkaesque 'asylum', an update from Jan Eissfeldt, with this being the key bit as regards the precipitating incident:
Jan Eissfeldt wrote:We are aware that proposals have been made that suggest the lifting of the ban on Fram in exchange for varying adjustments, such as the opening of an ArbCom case or the imposition of interaction bans. While we appreciate Fram and other volunteers exploring possible compromises, Foundation bans are non-appealable. I know that is, itself, a point of disagreement for many in the community; however, the policies governing T&S work are clear on this point. I appreciate in particular the idea put forward by Newyorkbrad and his having been explicit that it could only be valid if it is true that the community has reached accurate conclusions about the facts of the case. However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB’s condition is not met.
Momentum on the community side has slowed a lot. Looks like either an endgame is being played out, or things may ramp up again at some point. This whole episode will have far-reaching consequences either way.
I'll note for the record that Jan does not say that Trust and Safety vet the complainant's veracity and/or history prior to starting proceedings.

This allows cranks like Laura Hale and Caroline Becker to abuse the process with impunity.
This encourages first mover gamesmanship.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:29 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Meanwhile, back in the Kafkaesque 'asylum', an update from Jan Eissfeldt, with this being the key bit as regards the precipitating incident:
Jan Eissfeldt wrote:We are aware that proposals have been made that suggest the lifting of the ban on Fram in exchange for varying adjustments, such as the opening of an ArbCom case or the imposition of interaction bans. While we appreciate Fram and other volunteers exploring possible compromises, Foundation bans are non-appealable. I know that is, itself, a point of disagreement for many in the community; however, the policies governing T&S work are clear on this point. I appreciate in particular the idea put forward by Newyorkbrad and his having been explicit that it could only be valid if it is true that the community has reached accurate conclusions about the facts of the case. However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB’s condition is not met.
Momentum on the community side has slowed a lot. Looks like either an endgame is being played out, or things may ramp up again at some point. This whole episode will have far-reaching consequences either way.
Hah. I love this sort of deflection.
-I appreciate your idea, but it goes against policy, so we can't do it.
-Who writes the policy?
-Oh, we do.
-...so change the policy.
-What? No, we can't do that.
-Why not?

"We're totally willing to work with you, provided you do everything we say and the outcome is precisely the one you're trying to change. It's only fair, you don't have all the information necessary to make a decision. Also, only we get to decide how much information is necessary to make a decision."
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Carcharoth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:52 pm

Joe jobs and fake evidence are particularly troubling in systems like this, where the defendant can't see the evidence. I suspect that something like this may have happened here (if you discount more malign motives). It could be something where if Fram or someone not in the WMF bubble was able to review the evidence, the flaws would soon become apparent. But as they are not allowing that, this can't be done.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:03 pm

Vigilant wrote:I'll note for the record that Jan does not say that Trust and Safety vet the complainant's veracity and/or history prior to starting proceedings.
Well, let's be clear on that—there's no indication there are proceedings, just a vague claim that someone investigates a complaint and that ban decisions need to be approved by the supervising prosecu...I mean, supervisor (and legal, I guess? but that's nothing special).

What he has confirmed is that T&S are the police, judge, jury, and executioner. God help us all.

I think an interesting avenue for criticizing T&S is the other claim Jan makes—that "no action" decisions aren't subject to approval. It's just the investigator that decides a complaint is unfounded and nobody else needs to look at it. I'm reminded of the recent horrific killing of a child in Illinois by his own mother, despite the family having had multiple contacts with DCFS, because the overworked investigators concluded (apparently incorrectly) that the allegations they were investigating were unfounded. What are the criteria T&S use to determine that a complaint is unfounded? How do we know they aren't letting legitimate threats slip through the cracks?
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:24 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Joe jobs and fake evidence are particularly troubling in systems like this, where the defendant can't see the evidence. I suspect that something like this may have happened here (if you discount more malign motives). It could be something where if Fram or someone not in the WMF bubble was able to review the evidence, the flaws would soon become apparent. But as they are not allowing that, this can't be done.
My favorite thing is that disclosure, public or private, is just non-negotiable. Why? What actual legal concerns are there? Not just some on-wiki-only faux legalese like "We can't post the e-mails because they're copyrighted by the author." If there's a GDPR problem, explain it, and explain why even private disclosure under NDA can't resolve that.

If it's moral rather than legal, then let's discuss the morality. Let's weigh that morality against the morality of separating people from their colleagues without telling them why they're being punished. Let's weigh that against the morality of not telling the community when someone who was removed may be dangerous and should be avoided (the effect being, all people banned by office action will be presumed dangerous and avoided). Let's weigh that morality against the illogic of trying to encourage people to follow particular community norms (i.e., deterrence) when the action that causes the punishment is not clear to the community.

Edit to add:
Mother of God.
Robert Fernandez wrote:If you want to see the entire world through the lens of Kafka, be my guest, but we can't make policy in this movement based on that.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 92921.html
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by The Adversary » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:32 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Meanwhile, back in the Kafkaesque 'asylum', an update from Jan Eissfeldt, with this being the key bit as regards the precipitating incident:
Jan Eissfeldt wrote:We are aware that proposals have been made that suggest the lifting of the ban on Fram in exchange for varying adjustments, such as the opening of an ArbCom case or the imposition of interaction bans. While we appreciate Fram and other volunteers exploring possible compromises, Foundation bans are non-appealable. I know that is, itself, a point of disagreement for many in the community; however, the policies governing T&S work are clear on this point. I appreciate in particular the idea put forward by Newyorkbrad and his having been explicit that it could only be valid if it is true that the community has reached accurate conclusions about the facts of the case. However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB’s condition is not met.
Momentum on the community side has slowed a lot. Looks like either an endgame is being played out, or things may ramp up again at some point. This whole episode will have far-reaching consequences either way.
Jan Eissfeldt is a pompous ass. (Sorry for being so blunt.)
And pompous asses rarely hide any, shall we say, depth, or insight into the situation.

I wonder if Jan Eissfeldt/Jimbo have thought about how easy it would be for us to utterly destroy Wikipedia? Yes, destroy it by inserting so much false information that zero would trust it. And doing it in such a way that it wouldn't be detected (Hint: say, making use of some decade old bugs that the WMF never have fixed.)

Obviously, that would/should not be done before it is forked.
But if anyone is thinking of starting up a new wikipedia, (starting with copying all material from the present Wikipedia): the time is now.


In my 30+ years on the net I have never seen worse management of a site.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:01 pm

The funny thing about Eissfeldt is that his staff photo is the perfect depiction of T&S's status as a black box. The man is wearing three layers of matte black: Shirt/sweater, scarf, and pea coat. It's like poetry.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by The Adversary » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:39 pm

What stuns me, is that people apparently don't tell another person if they have problem with their behaviour...no, instead they run straight to the Trust & Safety team.

If you think anyone speaks too loud: tell them!
If you think anyone is violating your "personal space" (ie, are standing too close): tell them!

People are not mind readers!

To have a Trust & Safety team is well and fine (and necessary these days), but it shouldn't spend time on people who cannot behave as adults.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:58 pm

mendaliv wrote:How do we know they aren't letting legitimate threats slip through the cracks?
In fact, we know they absolutely are, as described by Katie here.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:42 pm

Hm, I just re-read Romaine's first e-mail with a view to doing a bit of devil's advocacy. This bit struck me:
During the meeting the Trust & Safety team told that they already had informed everyone in the organising team that they demanded WMBE's treasurer must stop helping in organising Wikimania 2018, . . . .

They also indicated that they "had to do something" so they could show the complainants that they do something when complaints are received, . . . .

During the conference WMBE's treasurer made it public, to prevent having to tell emotionally what happened, as well as for transparency reasons. . . .

Many people at the conference indicated to disagree with the decision of the Trust & Safety team, including WMF staff members and Wikimania's organising team. During the conference many of them approached the Trust & Safety team about it, . . . .

. . . .

Because of [a variety of complaints] they forbid WMBE's treasurer to be present at events funded directly/indirectly by WMF for two years.
Emphases, ellipses, and alterations mine. I think from this you can tell what got them to really go after Romaine. He called the T&S people at Wikimania out publicly which caused a bunch of people to go up to them and hassle them about getting kicked from assisting in organizing. Even taking Romaine's chronology as correct—that T&S had told the organizers he wouldn't be participating anymore before interviewing him—T&S would have taken his reaction of publicizing an event they'd tried to keep discreet as an indication that his reaction to "corrective action" would be more disruptive.

I'm not saying I'd support T&S's actions in that event. Just that this is a possible explanation for why this private talking-to became a full-court press to ban him from all events.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:00 pm

mendaliv wrote:Hm, I just re-read Romaine's first e-mail with a view to doing a bit of devil's advocacy. This bit struck me:
During the meeting the Trust & Safety team told that they already had informed everyone in the organising team that they demanded WMBE's treasurer must stop helping in organising Wikimania 2018, . . . .

They also indicated that they "had to do something" so they could show the complainants that they do something when complaints are received, . . . .

During the conference WMBE's treasurer made it public, to prevent having to tell emotionally what happened, as well as for transparency reasons. . . .

Many people at the conference indicated to disagree with the decision of the Trust & Safety team, including WMF staff members and Wikimania's organising team. During the conference many of them approached the Trust & Safety team about it, . . . .

. . . .

Because of [a variety of complaints] they forbid WMBE's treasurer to be present at events funded directly/indirectly by WMF for two years.
Emphases, ellipses, and alterations mine. I think from this you can tell what got them to really go after Romaine. He called the T&S people at Wikimania out publicly which caused a bunch of people to go up to them and hassle them about getting kicked from assisting in organizing. Even taking Romaine's chronology as correct—that T&S had told the organizers he wouldn't be participating anymore before interviewing him—T&S would have taken his reaction of publicizing an event they'd tried to keep discreet as an indication that his reaction to "corrective action" would be more disruptive.

I'm not saying I'd support T&S's actions in that event. Just that this is a possible explanation for why this private talking-to became a full-court press to ban him from all events.
That's the authoritarian response.
Instead of trying to finesse things, escalate because you assume you're invulnerable to criticism.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:15 pm

Man. When I was younger I always wished I was more confident. Looking at people who have an excess of confidence in all the wrong places... wow, that can get you into some trouble.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:26 pm

The Adversary wrote:What stuns me, is that people apparently don't tell another person if they have problem with their behaviour...no, instead they run straight to the Trust & Safety team.

If you think anyone speaks too loud: tell them!
If you think anyone is violating your "personal space" (ie, are standing too close): tell them!
Again, I don't mean to be argumentative and I know it's not PC, but when dealing with people who have a serious case of Asperger's Syndrome, telling them just doesn't work. They just go on and on, unable to pick up on any sort of physical or verbal cues whatsoever. It's not really their fault, but they don't understand that it's problematic for the other person... Sometimes you literally just have to walk away, or even run away.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Vigilant wrote:Caroline Becker, former board member of WMF France
She appears with several nasty looking stuffed animals in several of the pictures.
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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by The Adversary » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:44 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
The Adversary wrote:What stuns me, is that people apparently don't tell another person if they have problem with their behaviour...no, instead they run straight to the Trust & Safety team.

If you think anyone speaks too loud: tell them!
If you think anyone is violating your "personal space" (ie, are standing too close): tell them!
Again, I don't mean to be argumentative and I know it's not PC, but when dealing with people who have a serious case of Asperger's Syndrome, telling them just doesn't work. They just go on and on, unable to pick up on any sort of physical or verbal cues whatsoever. It's not really their fault, but they don't understand that it's problematic for the other person... Sometimes you literally just have to walk away, or even run away.
While I have no idea as to where this Belgian chap is on the spectrum, recall that the WMF once took a guy with Asperger's Syndrome, Ironholds (T-C-L) and made him (that is Okeyes (WMF) (T-C-L)) "Community Liaison". (Discussed eg here)

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Also, the French Lady clearly states that she didn't say anything , "but I was visibly distressed".
And to me, that simply isn't good enough.

Ok, story time: In one of my first work situations (back when I was in my 20s) I was in an all male group of some 20 to 30 men. I was the first and only women to work there.
From day one, one of the guys greeted me with "Hi, sexy!" each time he saw me. It made me absolutely boil with rage inside. (It was a techie job, I got it because of my science background at Uni.) If I had the choice, I would stand up, "visibly distressed" I'm sure, and walk out of the room, slamming the door behind me each time he did that.
He didn't take the "hint".
After a week of this I, eh, "manned myself up" and told him in very clear language to stop.
I will never forget his face, or stunned reply:
"You don't like it?????"
Me: NO!!!!!!

He was really genuinely surprised/shocked/saddened (either that, or he was the best actor I have ever met :dry: )
Anyway, thankfully, he never greeted me with "Hi, sexy!" again.

Midsize Jake: I have had to deal with my share of people who ignore what you tell them ("Oh no, you don't mean that!"), but if you haven't told people straight, not even once, then you don't have much to complain about, IMO.

Especially as a female: you have to set your borders.
Nobody else can set them for you.

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Poetlister » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:55 am

mendaliv wrote:Man. When I was younger I always wished I was more confident. Looking at people who have an excess of confidence in all the wrong places... wow, that can get you into some trouble.
It is good to be justifiably confident. But there's a thin line between that and being overconfident, which is usually bad.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:18 am

Vigilant wrote:Caroline Becker, former board member of WMF France
She appears with several nasty looking stuffed animals in several of the pictures.
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Neal Stephenson (T-H-L) Cryptonomicon

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by mendaliv » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:45 pm

... and yet Sviatoslav Richter (T-H-L) does not contain the word “lobster”?! Damn inaccurate encyclopedia!
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Poetlister » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:42 pm

mendaliv wrote:... and yet Sviatoslav Richter (T-H-L) does not contain the word “lobster”?! Damn inaccurate encyclopedia!
Is that a comment on Richter's plastic lobster fetish? :B'
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Unread post by Guido den Broeder » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:18 pm

We now have someone posing as a deceased user on Fram's commons talk page (my bold):
My perspective
Hello Fram, you might remember me as someone who got shafted by having my tools removed for standing up to a corrupt crat (Craven) and for fighting against abuse of women. You and me were on opposite sides with me fighting against Gaters and you protecting them. You and I may be opposites on the site (well me and Giano/Fat Eric/Cass are opposites too) but i think your block may have been a bit too harsh. I'd much prefer we banned Cass, Giano ,Corbett,Craven, GorillaTrader before you. Maybe if you return you can write 10 million times 'i won't help drive women editors off this site' on a wiki blackboard. Then maybe i'd be fine with you having some rights (like autoconfirmed + (new right) or S tiki user (you shouldn't be an admin except for on sites like Encyclopedia Dramatica's test wiki).Some reformed gamer gers i know can help you get that admin job if you promise to never go to Wikipedia.org again. Deal or no deal?
User:Kevin Gorman
Last edited by Zoloft on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed 'diseased' to 'deceased' for clarity

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