Bishonen Wheel Warring

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Vigilant
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Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:44 pm

From sucks.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=10#p7931

Clear as day.
Someone needs to take this to ARBCOM
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:53 pm

Doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal, but the fact is, WP:PROTECT is quite clear on this, rightly or (more likely) wrongly:
A user's request to have his or her own talk page protected is not a sufficient rationale to protect the page.
Without going too deep into it, I can see why Tarage (T-C-L) went to Bishonen (T-C-L) to ask for the protection (of his/her user_talk page) - Tarage had been cultivating Bishonen for months beforehand as a kind of admin proxy. IOW, whenever he encountered a user who clearly deserved a block, he'd go straight to Bishonen, who would agree and do it - after a while, Bishonen probably began to assume that Tarage was just trying to be super-helpful and therefore dropped any suspicions she might have had as to his/her motives. That, in turn, made Tarage more comfortable with behaving abusively towards other users, knowing that Bishonen would probably have his/her back in a dispute. Other users began to criticize Tarage for his/her behavior, at which point the thin-skinned narcissistic side of Tarage's personality came out, and the result was inevitable - he/she was banned from the noticeboards, a stain on an otherwise "perfect" record, followed by the rage-quit.

My guess is that Bishonen probably realized the extent to which she'd contributed to this process and felt that protecting Tarage's talk page would be helpful to her too, in that it would encourage everyone to forget the whole regrettable business.

Admittedly, I could be wrong about a lot of this, maybe all of it. But if not, this case is actually a good microcosm of why, to this day, crowdsourcing (and any other methodology that doesn't involve accountable control over who participates, and why) just isn't a good way to build an encyclopedia.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:52 pm

Once set of rules for the plebs, one set for the lords.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Kumioko » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:54 pm

Vigilant wrote:From sucks.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=10#p7931

Clear as day.
Someone needs to take this to ARBCOM
Typical self entitled admin kinda stuff doing whatever they want really. Just par for the course on Wikipedia unfortunately.

I wonder where Worm that Turned, New York Brad and others are?

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Dysklyver » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:20 am

Busy on meta hunting bad admins I expect, turns out that most admins on small wikis are either nazis, pedos, or homophobes. Sometimes in small groups, but often just on their own. :blink:
Globally banned after 7 years.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:45 am

Dysklyver wrote:Busy on meta hunting bad admins I expect, turns out that most admins on small wikis are either nazis, pedos, or homophobes. Sometimes in small groups, but often just on their own. :blink:
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Alex Shih » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:50 am

This happened before with Jytdog's talk page. I tried to bring this up to the mailing list but was basically blown off, for lack of better words. Only Mkdw was willing to speak out against this kind of obvious violation of protection policy on Bishonen's talk page, but was similarly blown off.

Newyorkbrad is no longer with the committee now, but there is really no reason for WormThatTurned, with their usual righteous self, to not speak out against this kind of obvious and rather systematic violation of tool use masquerading as some sort of IAR. Really disgusting in my opinion.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by chad100 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:09 am

A user's request to have his or her own talk page protected is not a sufficient rationale to protect the page.
Bishonen is another user who can get way get away again and again.Need Fram here the right person to deal with her.She should have gone with the Geogre socking but still an admin unbelievable.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by C&B » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:55 am

What was the Geogre case then?
"Someone requests clarification and before you know it you find yourself in the Star Chamber."

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:37 am

Alex Shih wrote:This happened before with Jytdog's talk page. I tried to bring this up to the mailing list but was basically blown off, for lack of better words. Only Mkdw was willing to speak out against this kind of obvious violation of protection policy on Bishonen's talk page, but was similarly blown off.

Newyorkbrad is no longer with the committee now, but there is really no reason for WormThatTurned, with their usual righteous self, to not speak out against this kind of obvious and rather systematic violation of tool use masquerading as some sort of IAR. Really disgusting in my opinion.
Of course there is.
It's called situational cowardice.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Alex Shih » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:01 am

And Bishonen has reverted herself. This is what I find troubling; she knows what she's doing, and willfully violates policies in hypocrisy knowing that she can get away with anything (exactly like Drmies, both spends years going around "befriending" folks). This was an unexplainable action that she realised that she had to reverse. Not very bright to be honest, and it's something that she admits anyway. Again, disgusting.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:08 pm

Alex Shih wrote:And Bishonen has reverted herself. This is what I find troubling; she knows what she's doing, and willfully violates policies in hypocrisy knowing that she can get away with anything (exactly like Drmies, both spends years going around "befriending" folks). This was an unexplainable action that she realised that she had to reverse. Not very bright to be honest, and it's something that she admits anyway. Again, disgusting.
She's flat out lying. When she reverted the Swarm unblock of the user's TP her edit summary was very clearly a known reversion of the Swarm admin action. Her edit summary could not be clearer. "(The user has left, and he really wants the page protected and kept blank. I don't see what harm it does. None of the usual reasons for keeping a talkpage unprotected applies. Please leave it like this.)" Now she's claiming that she has just woken up and realised what she had done. And here is a further example of IAR, brazenly adding content to a closed AN discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =871539258].

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by chad100 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:11 pm

Alex Shih wrote:And Bishonen has reverted herself. This is what I find troubling; she knows what she's doing, and willfully violates policies in hypocrisy knowing that she can get away with anything (exactly like Drmies, both spends years going around "befriending" folks). This was an unexplainable action that she realised that she had to reverse. Not very bright to be honest, and it's something that she admits anyway. Again, disgusting.
True .She has been doing it for years and willfully violates policies knowing fully well that she can get away with anything. Any other person would have lost the tools years ago.Even in her dispute with Jimbo ,she managed to get the upper hand.She is also very partisan with a close of friends.
Of course there is.
It's called situational cowardice.
True sadly true

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Pudeo » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:29 pm

Protected "User talk:Tarage": The user has left, and he really wants the page protected and kept blank. I don't see what harm it does. None of the usual reasons for keeping a talkpage unprotected applies. Please leave it like this.
Nice courtesy for someone whose main activity in Wikipedia were incivil one-liner backseat moderator comments at ANI, grave dancing and advice no one cared about.

BTW Sagecandor also wanted his talk page protected which was done by Oshwah but denied by Bbb.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Kumioko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:34 pm

Alex Shih wrote:This happened before with Jytdog's talk page. I tried to bring this up to the mailing list but was basically blown off, for lack of better words. Only Mkdw was willing to speak out against this kind of obvious violation of protection policy on Bishonen's talk page, but was similarly blown off.

Newyorkbrad is no longer with the committee now, but there is really no reason for WormThatTurned, with their usual righteous self, to not speak out against this kind of obvious and rather systematic violation of tool use masquerading as some sort of IAR. Really disgusting in my opinion.
Yep, they talk about how righteous they are but where are they when it actually matters? No where in sight and no doubt they'll have the usual excuses later of oh I was busy IRL.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:40 pm

Vigilant wrote:From sucks.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=10#p7931

Clear as day.
Someone needs to take this to ARBCOM
Someone has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... uests/Case

Likely to be withdrawn. Supporters are all over the raiser.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by chad100 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:33 pm

Jans Hammer wrote:
Vigilant wrote:From sucks.

https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... t=10#p7931

Clear as day.
Someone needs to take this to ARBCOM
Someone has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... uests/Case

Likely to be withdrawn. Supporters are all over the raiser.
Bishonen was part of the Geogre team and he did socking for years as a Admin and has backed Bishonen and Gaino is cases.If the case is to succeed it has to detail all her long term activities not just this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 100#Geogre
See this
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =300421480

Search Arbcom cases for "Geogre"

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by chad100 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:36 pm

C&B wrote:What was the Geogre case then?
Even Risker was dragged in but Bish was let off.

Link
Risker wrote:I have just returned from the New York Wikiconference today, and hence this is my first opportunity to respond. I apologise for the length of this statement; however, there appear to be several conflated issues that should be addressed.

I was aware that Geogre had an alternate account; I do not recall at what point I became aware of it (it was well before I became a member of the Arbitration Committee), but to me it is obvious that they are alternate accounts. They use the same words, the same language constructs, the same rhythm and metre of speaking, and share the same opinions. Because of this, it did not occur to me that they were undisclosed or unknown alternates, and I never investigated further. I did not use any tools to compare their edits, I didn't check their contributions, I didn't look at the list of alternate accounts disclosed only to the Arbitration Committee and checkusers, and I didn't check their user pages to see if there was anything there. When the discussion related to the link Durova provides occurred, I was genuinely surprised and confused that there was even a question that they were alternate accounts and I resolved to have a private discussion with Geogre about the matter.

That discussion did not take place. Shortly after Yellowmonkey's and Mackensen's posts to my page, I was faced with a very serious real-life personal matter that is unrelated to Wikipedia, and is directly related to my disclosed wikibreak, my inactivity on a large number of arbitration cases, and my comparative lack of contributions to the encyclopedia. My colleagues on the Arbitration Committee were made aware of my personal situation at that time and have been kept apprised; however, this is a matter that I will not discuss publicly. The plan to follow up with Geogre on what was (to me at least) an obvious alternate account simply slipped off my radar. Nobody brought it up to me again directly until after commentary had been made in other forums, so I had no reason to think that this was much of a concern to others, either.

Once I became aware of the seriousness of the concerns being discussed, I provided the Committee with additional information (most of which is in this statement) and then recused from the discussion of this matter. As Durova posted her questions about me to the Arbitration Committee as a whole, and not to me alone, I felt it was a violation of my recusal to respond outside of the walls of the Committee.

I am not certain how anyone can think that I personally benefited from this issue. Geogre did indeed make five copy edits to Michael Gomez while it was on FAC; more than a dozen other editors also made copy edits, many of which were far more substantial, and Geogre's support of the article at FAC was irrelevant as long as there were outstanding oppose comments, none of which his copy edits addressed. (Incidentally, there are no edits with the Utgard Loki account, nor did the Utgard Loki account comment at FAC.) At RFA, only the Geogre account voted. The Utgard Loki account corrected DGG, who had written that I was running for Arbitration Committee rather than adminship at that time, and it did not vote. I am not even certain I noticed that exchange at the time, as I was trying to address a serious debate involving another oppose vote (and the reaction to it) at the time of the DGG/Utgard Loki exchange of comments. I am hard pressed to think that pointing out that I was running for adminship would have had an effect one way or the other on the outcome of the RFA, but here is a link to my RFA for those who wish to analyse further. Risker (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:46 pm

Bishonen is nearly untouchable at this point. She has far too many apologists and buddies who will defend her for everything. She'll have to do much worse than this.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:49 pm

Dysklyver wrote:Busy on meta hunting bad admins I expect, turns out that most admins on small wikis are either nazis, pedos, or homophobes. Sometimes in small groups, but often just on their own. :blink:
Or total nutcases. Of course, that only applies to WMF sites.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Kumioko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:23 pm

The Garbage Scow wrote:Bishonen is nearly untouchable at this point. She has far too many apologists and buddies who will defend her for everything. She'll have to do much worse than this.
I agree. She is a good example of an admin who stopped doing anything useful years ago but now is so entrenched into the Cabal that removing them is almost impossible. Having said that, it is worth nothing that at one time desysopping Chase Me Ladies I'm the Cavalry was unthinkable as well so maybe in the future the Arbcom or the other admins will finally grow some morals and start acting in the best interests of the project and the community and do something about these characters. Until people like New York Brad, WTT and others are willing to step up though I wouldn't count on it. They're just too interested in not rocking the boat and staying in power and others in the community like Floqunebeam and Fram are to big of problems themselves to do anything about it.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:25 pm

Kumioko wrote:
The Garbage Scow wrote:Bishonen is nearly untouchable at this point. She has far too many apologists and buddies who will defend her for everything. She'll have to do much worse than this.
I agree. She is a good example of an admin who stopped doing anything useful years ago but now is so entrenched into the Cabal that removing them is almost impossible. Having said that, it is worth nothing that at one time desysopping Chase Me Ladies I'm the Cavalry was unthinkable as well so maybe in the future the Arbcom or the other admins will finally grow some morals and start acting in the best interests of the project and the community and do something about these characters. Until people like New York Brad, WTT and others are willing to step up though I wouldn't count on it. They're just too interested in not rocking the boat and staying in power and others in the community like Floqunebeam and Fram are to big of problems themselves to do anything about it.
Until she's not.

There's a long ancestral chain of 'untouchable operators' on en.wp who eventually step across a line and fall from grace only to be resurrected into a new wiki-sleeve.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:48 pm

Who'd have thought that Fred Bauder, leading member of The Cabal, would ever fall from grace?
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Beeblebrox » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:16 pm

Poetlister wrote:Who'd have thought that Fred Bauder, leading member of The Cabal, would ever fall from grace?
Well, I saw it coming, but not until about 2014. The one remark that he made on the functionaries list that came out in the arbcom case was only the last in a series of entirely unhelpful, trolling comments by him there, but of course it's al off-wiki.

I found this comment interesting:
When I eventually get desysopped, it will probably be for wheel warring (and *not* self reverting when asked) in a situation not significantly different than this. Blanking and protecting was the correct, respectful thing to do. --Floquenbeam (talk) 6:48 am, Today (UTC−9)
because unlike many of you here, I actually kinda like Floq, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did exactly this.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Dysklyver » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:36 pm

I am sure they will all eventually be blocked, desysopped or die.

It is vaguely amusing watching it happen though. :D
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by MrErnie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:41 pm

I’m not sure I understand all the trouble over Tarage. The guy seemed to only be active to troll the drama boards. It was a bit odd to see him pitch a tantrum and take his toys home the moment his behavior was the subject. Where’s the self awareness? Seriously - he got treated with the kid gloves compared to the type of comments he typically made. Why is Bishonen so keen to cater to his wishes? Most other pot stirrers she would likely tell to fuck off.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:05 pm

MrErnie wrote:I’m not sure I understand all the trouble over Tarage. The guy seemed to only be active to troll the drama boards. It was a bit odd to see him pitch a tantrum and take his toys home the moment his behavior was the subject. Where’s the self awareness? Seriously - he got treated with the kid gloves compared to the type of comments he typically made. Why is Bishonen so keen to cater to his wishes? Most other pot stirrers she would likely tell to fuck off.
Some sort of Japanese connection?

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Kumioko » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:38 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Kumioko wrote:
The Garbage Scow wrote:Bishonen is nearly untouchable at this point. She has far too many apologists and buddies who will defend her for everything. She'll have to do much worse than this.
I agree. She is a good example of an admin who stopped doing anything useful years ago but now is so entrenched into the Cabal that removing them is almost impossible. Having said that, it is worth nothing that at one time desysopping Chase Me Ladies I'm the Cavalry was unthinkable as well so maybe in the future the Arbcom or the other admins will finally grow some morals and start acting in the best interests of the project and the community and do something about these characters. Until people like New York Brad, WTT and others are willing to step up though I wouldn't count on it. They're just too interested in not rocking the boat and staying in power and others in the community like Floqunebeam and Fram are to big of problems themselves to do anything about it.
Until she's not.

There's a long ancestral chain of 'untouchable operators' on en.wp who eventually step across a line and fall from grace only to be resurrected into a new wiki-sleeve.
Yeah but as long as she doesn't do anything to other admins she's fine. They almost never do anything if the admins are just harassing regular editors.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by tarantino » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:03 am

Jans Hammer wrote:
MrErnie wrote:I’m not sure I understand all the trouble over Tarage. The guy seemed to only be active to troll the drama boards. It was a bit odd to see him pitch a tantrum and take his toys home the moment his behavior was the subject. Where’s the self awareness? Seriously - he got treated with the kid gloves compared to the type of comments he typically made. Why is Bishonen so keen to cater to his wishes? Most other pot stirrers she would likely tell to fuck off.
Some sort of Japanese connection?
Bishonen (which means pretty boy) is from Sweden. There's no evidence that they understand Japanese, so they're probably not Yohio.
Tarage is an autistic nerd who works for Microsoft.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 am

MrErnie wrote:I’m not sure I understand all the trouble over Tarage. The guy seemed to only be active to troll the drama boards. It was a bit odd to see him pitch a tantrum and take his toys home the moment his behavior was the subject. Where’s the self awareness? Seriously - he got treated with the kid gloves compared to the type of comments he typically made. Why is Bishonen so keen to cater to his wishes? Most other pot stirrers she would likely tell to fuck off.
Tarage is almost certainly the sockpuppet of a returning user that Bishonen knows.

One set of rules for insiders, fuck over everyone else.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:36 am

Vigilant wrote:Tarage is almost certainly the sockpuppet of a returning user that Bishonen knows.
Y'know, for some reason I hadn't considered that before my earlier post to this thread, but that really would explain it about as neatly as can be. Problem is, though, the account was created all the way back in 2004 (this was his first edit). Bishonen's own account is only six months older, and they didn't interact much (if at all) until 2016.

That doesn't eliminate the possibility of course, since the person operating the Tarage account may have been "ripening" it for several years prior to 2016. But it does seem like an awfully long time, if that's what he/she was doing.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by turnedworm » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:13 am

Morning all.

Seems the fact that I don't work weekends has caused some consternation amongst some members here. Well, tough. I do my best to switch off from Wikipedia during the weekend - to spend it with my family. The fact that I didn't do so during my last term is a large reason I came close to burn out.

As for the case, I'll say simply, Wheel Warring? Really? It took place over the course of 6 weeks. Yes, they should have chatted about it, but come on. I know some people here and elsewhere don't like Bishonen, but that's clutching at straws.

As for whether Tarage's page should have been protected, well, I think it should. I have no issue with protecting individuals page when they are trying to make a clean break from Wikipedia. I've gone out of my way before to help people leave, especially when crats could do renaming. You can snoop through my logs between 2012/4, I'm sure you'll find many examples. What's more, I certainly don't believe those rules are for the "lords", I can think of examples of banned users and rage quitters and a few others who have had their talk pages protected. It happens, it's not the norm, but sometimes it's the right option.

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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:32 pm

Kumioko wrote:That's just typical minimization enabler bullshit!

If any other person but an admin were wheel warring they would have been blocked and drug to ANI. That it's being done by an admin shouldn't be better but worse results. They should be held to a higher standard not justified.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:53 pm

Decline By the letter of policy, fine, this is wheel warring. However, it happened over the course of weeks and over a topic that was squarely in IAR (helping a person who wanted to be left alone). The whole thing could have been sorted out with a little chat, both Swarm and Bishonen are articulate admins who get it and would have come to an agreement - oh look, they did. WormTT(talk) 10:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
The point is that WP:WHEEL is a bright line rule ... except when inconvenient.

You've enshrined, yet again, the separation of the classes.
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Re: Bishonen Wheel Warring

Unread post by Alex Shih » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:17 pm

Yeah the IAR business is funny. Of course there are separation of classes, and it's downright annoying when some people try to pretend it doesn't exist. Tarage's request to protect their user talk page, like Jytdog's request, cannot possibly be considered as good faith requests when examining their reasoning in depth. Should there be a category, "Administrators that will protect your talk page when you want to avoid scrutiny, and will wheel war in the name "IAR" if another administrator disagrees with my misuse of tools?"? What a joke.

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