Lila as a technical person

[Vigilant]

This is interesting.

I get the feeling that the good old days of blowing smoke up the ED's ass are long gone.

P.S. Erik, every time you use surface that way she can tell that you're full of shit. Poser.

[Randy from Boise]

This is interesting.

I get the feeling that the good old days of blowing smoke up the ED's ass are long gone.

P.S. Erik, every time you use surface that way she can tell that you're full of shit. Poser.

I suspect they hired here BECAUSE she has a technical background.

It will take a while for her to fix the mess. More than just this year.

RfB

[Vigilant]

This is interesting.

I get the feeling that the good old days of blowing smoke up the ED's ass are long gone.

P.S. Erik, every time you use surface that way she can tell that you're full of shit. Poser.

I suspect they hired here BECAUSE she has a technical background.

It will take a while for her to fix the mess. More than just this year.

RfB

I can feel Mo:eller's ass puckering from here.

[EricBarbour]

This is interesting.

And fucking unreadable. I've been in business meetings like this, which only makes it worse.

[Vigilant]

This is interesting.

And fucking unreadable. I've been in business meetings like this, which only makes it worse.

Just search for 'Lila'.

Look at what she says.
You can ignore the rest but there's some pretty obvious panic moments in there too.

[Alison]

[SB_Johnny]

Good to know someone else is seeing what I'm seeing.
Can't have enough:

[Alison]

Good to know someone else is seeing what I'm seeing.
Can't have enough:

As an engineer working in the South Bay, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing what Vigilant is seeing, and these first few meetings are just a taste of what is about to happen. Once she figures out what's to be done vs. what's actually *been* done, things will start to change very rapidly indeed!

Pass the popcorn!

[SB_Johnny]

Good to know someone else is seeing what I'm seeing.
Can't have enough:

As an engineer working in the South Bay, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing what Vigilant is seeing, and these first few meetings are just a taste of what is about to happen. Once she figures out what's to be done vs. what's actually *been* done, things will start to change very rapidly indeed!

Pass the popcorn!

I wanna binge-watch it, but it's only coming out in dribs and drabs. That's just unamerican, I tell ya!

[Vigilant]

Good to know someone else is seeing what I'm seeing.
Can't have enough:

As an engineer working in the South Bay, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing what Vigilant is seeing, and these first few meetings are just a taste of what is about to happen. Once she figures out what's to be done vs. what's actually *been* done, things will start to change very rapidly indeed!

Pass the popcorn!

She's still being investigatory.
That will end.

Anyone else been in a code review where the coder(s) were obviously out of their depth and starting to panic?
That's what's going on in that conversation.

The engineering department had been able to tell Sue anything and she just swallowed it since she was utterly non-technical.
Johnson rods and muffler bearings.

That time is past. Let the sweating begin in earnest.

[Zoloft]

By the way, pitiful notes to be publicly displayed. Buy a $100 digital recorder and hand it to an intern to write the minutes up. Or use a smartphone, email same intern a sound file to transcribe. These are obviously just 'napkin notes.'

I believe a couple of snippets are in order:

Lila: can we add actual numbers to the slides? ok
Lila: Do we have other mobile goals around e.g. readership or donations?
Maryana: no
Tomasz: we used to set readership goals (around 2 years ago), but organic growth was steady anyway
Lila: seasonal effects for unique user numbers?
Maryana: can't tell yet
majority of users who make 1+ mobile edit are new users
Howie: released mobile editing around a year ago

Lila: need to think about where the user is, and how we can bring WP to them – not the other way around

[Anthonyhcole]

I believe a couple of snippets are in order:
...

Lila: Do we have other mobile goals around e.g. readership or donations?
Maryana: no
Tomasz: we used to set readership goals (around 2 years ago), but organic growth was steady anyway
Lila: seasonal effects for unique user numbers?
Maryana: can't tell yet
majority of users who make 1+ mobile edit are new users

Don't blame that on Maryana, she's relatively new in the role. Let's see what happens when she's got a supportive ED behind her.

Lila: we should design and build for mobile first because 1. it's a green field, 2. it will be the primary platform (80%) Mobile team should become a resource to other teams, just like Platform is.

Definitely the smartest person in the room.

[Zoloft]

Lila: we should design and build for mobile first because 1. it's a green field, 2. it will be the primary platform (80%) Mobile team should become a resource to other teams, just like Platform is.

Definitely the smartest person in the room.

Agreed.

A sea change from Sue Gardner in that regard.

[Vigilant]

Definitely the smartest person in the room.

Damning with faint praise.

[Hex]

(emphasis added)

Erik: Flow will offer lots of opportunities, but is nowhere near mobile-ready, needs to be resourced appropriately or it will fail
Let's not repeat the VE situation – implementing lots of cool features without mobile support

That's not how most people would describe "the VE situation".

[Vigilant]

(emphasis added)

Erik: Flow will offer lots of opportunities, but is nowhere near mobile-ready, needs to be resourced appropriately or it will fail
Let's not repeat the VE situation – implementing lots of cool features without mobile support

That's not how most people would describe "the VE situation".

Mo:eller has to be dying there.
Everyone knows he's a technical management embarrassment and he's trying to hide it from someone who isn't.

[Randy from Boise]

(emphasis added)

Erik: Flow will offer lots of opportunities, but is nowhere near mobile-ready, needs to be resourced appropriately or it will fail
Let's not repeat the VE situation – implementing lots of cool features without mobile support

That's not how most people would describe "the VE situation".

Mo:eller has to be dying there.
Everyone knows he's a technical management embarrassment and he's trying to hide it from someone who isn't.

If he really thinks lack of mobile support was the reason for the VE debacle, he needs to resign first thing Monday morning...

Nobody that clueless should be in the position he is in.


RfB

[Vigilant]

(emphasis added)

Erik: Flow will offer lots of opportunities, but is nowhere near mobile-ready, needs to be resourced appropriately or it will fail
Let's not repeat the VE situation – implementing lots of cool features without mobile support

That's not how most people would describe "the VE situation".

Mo:eller has to be dying there.
Everyone knows he's a technical management embarrassment and he's trying to hide it from someone who isn't.

If he really thinks lack of mobile support was the reason for the VE debacle, he needs to resign first thing Monday morning...

Nobody that clueless should be in the position he is in.


RfB

Someone should send Lila the link to the "The Visual Editor is a Huge Failure" thread.
Lots of very technical people made excellent points in there.

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

Erik Moeller should be spending every off-duty hour looking for a new job, putting aside his pride and finding a low-level position before he is fired.

[Anroth]

I'm not sure I have enough popcorn for the next few months at this rate.... To CostCo!

[Hex]

If he really thinks lack of mobile support was the reason for the VE debacle, he needs to resign first thing Monday morning...

I don't think it's that. The quote suggests to me that he's willfully ignoring the debacle and attempting to define VE as a product whose only flaws lie in its lack of mobile functionality. Acknowledging the truly disastrous nature of the rollout is ideologically unacceptable for these people.

I can also only concur with the people above who've pointed out that these are cheap shit minutes. A multi-million-dollar org and they can't even get their act together to take minutes properly? I hope that one thing Lila does is put a definitive end to that kind of low-level lazy crap.

[Anthonyhcole]

The premature rollout was the first part of the disaster, the second was the contempt Möller and Forrester dished up to the editors who pointed out issues. They were no better in their response to editors who pointed out problems with the initial version of echo either.

I wonder if Lila (or Sue for that matter) has read any of those appalling exchanges. Reading through one or two of those threads would explain a lot about the degree of animosity the active editors have toward those two men.

[lilburne]

The premature rollout was the first part of the disaster, the second was the contempt Möller and Forrester dished up to the editors who pointed out issues. They were no better in their response to editors who pointed out problems with the initial version of echo either.

I wonder if Lila (or Sue for that matter) has read any of those appalling exchanges. Reading through one or two of those threads would explain a lot about the degree of animosity the active editors have toward those two men.

I think this just proves that you don't understand AGILATING!

[Kumioko]

If he really thinks lack of mobile support was the reason for the VE debacle, he needs to resign first thing Monday morning...

I don't think it's that. The quote suggests to me that he's willfully ignoring the debacle and attempting to define VE as a product whose only flaws lie in its lack of mobile functionality. Acknowledging the truly disastrous nature of the rollout is ideologically unacceptable for these people.

I can also only concur with the people above who've pointed out that these are cheap shit minutes. A multi-million-dollar org and they can't even get their act together to take minutes properly? I hope that one thing Lila does is put a definitive end to that kind of low-level lazy crap.

I definately see Erik on the way out. He has no idea what he is doing, the projects coming out of the technical team the last couple years have been mostly a disgrace and the future doesn't seem to be much different if something isn't done. Its no secret the best apps have come from the volunteers and I think thats telling.

[Kelly Martin]

I definately see Erik on the way out. He has no idea what he is doing, the projects coming out of the technical team the last couple years have been mostly a disgrace and the future doesn't seem to be much different if something isn't done. Its no secret the best apps have come from the volunteers and I think thats telling.

That would obtain if the WMF were responsibly managed. But at the WMF, the sole measure of your employability (if you're male, at least) is how strongly you can express your belief that Wikipedia is "awesome". Moeller is very good at that. Moeller has strong support from the Board (which you will recall he used to be a member of), and it's likely that the Board will not take well to an attempt by Ms. Tretikov to terminate his employment. She's going to have to be ready to fight to terminate him if that's what she decides ought to be done.

[Randy from Boise]

I definately see Erik on the way out. He has no idea what he is doing, the projects coming out of the technical team the last couple years have been mostly a disgrace and the future doesn't seem to be much different if something isn't done. Its no secret the best apps have come from the volunteers and I think thats telling.

That would obtain if the WMF were responsibly managed. But at the WMF, the sole measure of your employability (if you're male, at least) is how strongly you can express your belief that Wikipedia is "awesome". Moeller is very good at that. Moeller has strong support from the Board (which you will recall he used to be a member of), and it's likely that the Board will not take well to an attempt by Ms. Tretikov to terminate his employment. She's going to have to be ready to fight to terminate him if that's what she decides ought to be done.

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

RfB

[thekohser]

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

I ran for that board twice, Tim. Did you make me your highest vote, either time? If not, you have no place to moan here.

[Kelly Martin]

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

I ran for that board twice, Tim. Did you make me your highest vote, either time? If not, you have no place to moan here.

I ran against Moeller the year he was elected. Don't say I never tried.

[Zoloft]

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

I ran for that board twice, Tim. Did you make me your highest vote, either time? If not, you have no place to moan here.

I ran against Moeller the year he was elected. Don't say I never tried.

I invite people to fill in the blanks at a topic I just opened on the subject of the WMF Board of Trustees: link

[Poetlister]

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

I ran for that board twice, Tim. Did you make me your highest vote, either time? If not, you have no place to moan here.

I voted for Greg.

[neved]

What this suppose to mean? If that message was simulated automatically as part of The Wikipedia Adventure, why it looks like Lila posted it?

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

What this suppose to mean? If that message was simulated automatically as part of The Wikipedia Adventure, why it looks like Lila posted it?

The Wikipedia Adventure, as part of its targetting of 8 year olds, spams the user-page after it is started by an editor, the better to attract other kiddies.

Notice that it quickly suggests having an off-Wiki chat at IRC, or visiting the Tea-House.

[Randy from Boise]

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

I ran for that board twice, Tim. Did you make me your highest vote, either time? If not, you have no place to moan here.

I voted for Greg.

I've never voted for the board. I have barely noticed it until the Glass Door employee comments that emerged last week in which several people intimated the Board was part and parcel of a chronic incompetent management problem at WMF.

Unlike some people, I did not emerge from the womb knowing everything about everything...

So: tell us about the process. And tell us whether my assessment is right that "the Board is the root of the problem."

RfB

[Vigilant]

The Board is the root of the problem.

Who exactly are these people and why do we never pay attention to them at WPO???

I ran for that board twice, Tim. Did you make me your highest vote, either time? If not, you have no place to moan here.

I voted for Greg.

I've never voted for the board. I have barely noticed it until the Glass Door employee comments that emerged last week in which several people intimated the Board was part and parcel of a chronic incompetent management problem at WMF.

Unlike some people, I did not emerge from the womb knowing everything about everything...

So: tell us about the process. And tell us whether my assessment is right that "the Board is the root of the problem."

RfB

I don't think the board is the "root" of the problem. I think they're just another symptom of the underlying problem.

Wiki[m|p]edia is infested with sub-mediocre people who have a penchant for minor power grabs.
Once they've established a local fief, regardless of what that is, they invite/hire more of the same to help them run the place.

There are no consequences for failing, even repeatedly. Even for failing due to incompetence or sloth or malicious intent.
The entire structure is lacking in feedback mechanisms that should correct things when a failure is detected.

Most of the groups at WMF engineering have nobody who has succeeded at a senior level in Silicon Valley. Nobody.
Many of these guys are hired because they knew someone or hung out on IRC with the right people.
The board is nothing more than a an extension of this problem. Well connected but sub-average amateurs.

Outside of fundraising, there isn't a single group at the WMF or en.wp that is worth a damn.

Until they fix the way they hire and promote people, they are doomed to repeat this merry-go-round from hell.

[thekohser]

So: tell us about the process. And tell us whether my assessment is right that "the Board is the root of the problem."

The first Wikimedia Foundation board was set up in 2003 by Jimmy Wales. 100% of its three members were principals of the Bomis company.

The following year (June 2004), they added two more seats to the board. Several months after that, Wikia, Inc. was founded. The 2004-2005 WMF board was 80% composed of Wikia or Bomis personnel.

In July 2005, they held an election for a new board, but nobody left and nobody new came on. So, through September 2006 you still had that 80% Wikia-Bomis faction.

In September 2006, the board was reorganized, and one of the co-founders of Wikia was replaced by her ex-boyfriend, Erik Moeller.

Until February 2008, Jimmy Wales always had a Wikia employee allied with him on the board.

Does this tell you something about the "process"?

[neved]

What this suppose to mean? If that message was simulated automatically as part of The Wikipedia Adventure, why it looks like Lila posted it?

The Wikipedia Adventure, as part of its targetting of 8 year olds, spams the user-page after it is started by an editor, the better to attract other kiddies.

Notice that it quickly suggests having an off-Wiki chat at IRC, or visiting the Tea-House.

I know what Wikipedia Adventure is, but I do not understand how that post got to Lila's page. It looks like it was her own "contribution". Was she testing it herself?

[Randy from Boise]

So: tell us about the process. And tell us whether my assessment is right that "the Board is the root of the problem."

The first Wikimedia Foundation board was set up in 2003 by Jimmy Wales. 100% of its three members were principals of the Bomis company.

The following year (June 2004), they added two more seats to the board. Several months after that, Wikia, Inc. was founded. The 2004-2005 WMF board was 80% composed of Wikia or Bomis personnel.

In July 2005, they held an election for a new board, but nobody left and nobody new came on. So, through September 2006 you still had that 80% Wikia-Bomis faction.

In September 2006, the board was reorganized, and one of the co-founders of Wikia was replaced by her ex-boyfriend, Erik Moeller.

Until February 2008, Jimmy Wales always had a Wikia employee allied with him on the board.

Does this tell you something about the "process"?

That tells me something about the origins of the Board. I assume there is some description of their actual purview somewhere on wiki... And I assume that there have been some changes from the end of 2007 to the middle of 2014.

RfB

[Kumioko]

I think Lila will absolutely have to fight for some of the things she wants and needs to do. I do not know yet what her comfort level of heat is so its hard to say what she is willing to do to make things happen. Whenever a new CEO or Director comes into an organization they generally do one of 2 things. They keep the status quo, or go for a major overhaul. I am starting to think Lila is more aof a status quo type but she might just be using the WMF as a career chip and plans to move onto something else soonish. So its possible she may not do much. Its really hard to say for sure.

I also agree that the Board is next to useless. They have little effect on the community and the community in general probably couldn't name one person on the board or even know there is a board.

With that said, personally, I think there is a need for the WMF to Work more with the Wikia team and more with the community. There is no reason for the WMF and Wikia to be independently developing changes to the same software although I admit there are significant differences between the 2. A major problem with the WMF is their all about me mentality and their arrogance.

[Vigilant]

I think Lila will absolutely have to fight for some of the things she wants and needs to do. I do not know yet what her comfort level of heat is so its hard to say what she is willing to do to make things happen. Whenever a new CEO or Director comes into an organization they generally do one of 2 things. They keep the status quo, or go for a major overhaul. I am starting to think Lila is more aof a status quo type but she might just be using the WMF as a career chip and plans to move onto something else soonish. So its possible she may not do much. Its really hard to say for sure.

I also agree that the Board is next to useless. They have little effect on the community and the community in general probably couldn't name one person on the board or even know there is a board.

With that said, personally, I think there is a need for the WMF to Work more with the Wikia team and more with the community. There is no reason for the WMF and Wikia to be independently developing changes to the same software although I admit there are significant differences between the 2. A major problem with the WMF is their all about me mentality and their arrogance.

Yeeeaaaahhh, that's yer problem right there.

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

Tim,

In organizational studies, the rule of thumb for non-profits is that sooner or later the staff captures the organization and set its agenda.

Does Wales or the staff have more influence on the WMF's direction?

(Actually, Jimbo Wales does remind me of the Whip's Wife on House of Cards, who in Season One shifted to a third-wordly cause for better publicity....)

[Randy from Boise]

Tim,

In organizational studies, the rule of thumb for non-profits is that sooner or later the staff captures the organization and set its agenda.

Does Wales or the staff have more influence on the WMF's direction?

Yeah, I think that's probably right. There's an obvious parallel to Burnham and The Managerial Revolution and those who argued in the same vein before and after that it is not the owners so much as the managers and directors that control corporate decision-making (and who shape corporate activities to advance their own interests).

RfB

[Kelly Martin]

In organizational studies, the rule of thumb for non-profits is that sooner or later the staff captures the organization and set its agenda.

Does Wales or the staff have more influence on the WMF's direction?

Oh, it's fairly obvious that Sue executed a near-complete capture during her term. However, the change of ED can break capture, or cement it, depending on the relationships, which it is too soon to tell about.

[Vigilant]

In organizational studies, the rule of thumb for non-profits is that sooner or later the staff captures the organization and set its agenda.

Does Wales or the staff have more influence on the WMF's direction?

Oh, it's fairly obvious that Sue executed a near-complete capture during her term. However, the change of ED can break capture, or cement it, depending on the relationships, which it is too soon to tell about.

Kelly,

Do you really think that the board would oust Lila if she started making changes to make the organization more professional?
Child protection policy?
Image filter?
Pending changes?
BLP opt-out?

Really?

What is she brings in a heavy hitter VPEng who scrambles up the WMF engineering department and institutes rigorous performance evaluations and solid hiring practices?

What is she did the unthinkable and terminated Erik Mo:eller and James Forrester for incompetence and fraud?

What if she sacked the entire Human Resources department and replaced it with a contractor firm?

All of these are clearly within her mandate.
If they fired her, can you IMAGINE the wrongful termination lawsuit?

Lila is in the driver's seat.
She can professionally eviscerate any constituency since they are all so very, very screwed up.

[Randy from Boise]

In organizational studies, the rule of thumb for non-profits is that sooner or later the staff captures the organization and set its agenda.

Does Wales or the staff have more influence on the WMF's direction?

Oh, it's fairly obvious that Sue executed a near-complete capture during her term. However, the change of ED can break capture, or cement it, depending on the relationships, which it is too soon to tell about.

Kelly,

Do you really think that the board would oust Lila if she started making changes to make the organization more professional?
Child protection policy?
Image filter?
Pending changes?
BLP opt-out?

Really?

What is she brings in a heavy hitter VPEng who scrambles up the WMF engineering department and institutes rigorous performance evaluations and solid hiring practices?

What is she did the unthinkable and terminated Erik Mo:eller and James Forrester for incompetence and fraud?

What if she sacked the entire Human Resources department and replaced it with a contractor firm?

All of these are clearly within her mandate.
If they fired her, can you IMAGINE the wrongful termination lawsuit?

Lila is in the driver's seat.
She can professionally eviscerate any constituency since they are all so very, very screwed up.

She hasn't had time to forge alliances and consolidate power.

There is no way that a newcomer can leap into anything like that. She is their employee at this point...

RfB

[SB_Johnny]

I don't think the board is the "root" of the problem. I think they're just another symptom of the underlying problem.

Right, but they're also the only people who actually -- as in actually actually, really, in reality, without a doubt, and (more or less) without a "higher court" that could override them -- can make a real immediate change of course.

Not that there's any chance that they would, of course. They're pretty much the small set of people who really should take the blame because they shouldn't have agreed to sit on Jimmy's board. I won't feel at all bad eating popcorn when they eventually get sued.

[Kelly Martin]

Do you really think that the board would oust Lila if she started making changes to make the organization more professional?
Child protection policy?
Image filter?
Pending changes?
BLP opt-out?

Really?

What is she brings in a heavy hitter VPEng who scrambles up the WMF engineering department and institutes rigorous performance evaluations and solid hiring practices?

What is she did the unthinkable and terminated Erik Mo:eller and James Forrester for incompetence and fraud?

What if she sacked the entire Human Resources department and replaced it with a contractor firm?

The Board will probably let her get away with doing whatever she wants within the Foundation staff itself, although firing Moeller or Forrester might cause problems as both are deeply connected with the social communities from which the Board is drawn. But any attempt to interfere with the prerogatives of the Wikipedia community (such as the image filter, a child protection policy, altering BLP policies) or any attempt to significantly alter the behavior or look-and-feel of the website will result in aggressive pushback from the community, much of which will get lensed through the Board.

I'm less clear on where the Board stands on these issues these days as I know far less about who's serving on the Board than I have in past years. The fact that there's so many non-EFL people on the Board and that a significant fraction of the Board counts a wiki other than the English Wikipedia as "home" suggests that the Board may be more willing than in the past to ignore whining from the English Wikipedia community.

[Hex]

The Board will probably let her get away with doing whatever she wants within the Foundation staff itself, although firing Moeller or Forrester might cause problems as both are deeply connected with the social communities from which the Board is drawn.

If the ED ever fires Forrester, it's crucial that she gets the WMF IRC channels under formal control first. Otherwise, he gets to continue being Spod-King of IRC and the "they're not official" myth will be greatly strengthened. As it stands, their management by a WMF employee is armament for those who could reel them in.

[Vigilant]

The Board will probably let her get away with doing whatever she wants within the Foundation staff itself, although firing Moeller or Forrester might cause problems as both are deeply connected with the social communities from which the Board is drawn.

If the ED ever fires Forrester, it's crucial that she gets the WMF IRC channels under formal control first. Otherwise, he gets to continue being Spod-King of IRC and the "they're not official" myth will be greatly strengthened. As it stands, their management by a WMF employee is armament for those who could reel them in.

Those channels are only worth what they are for who shows up.
This is similar to the google/wikipedia relationship.

If the WMF said, "No advanced permissions users will discuss/canvass/etc wikipedia business off of the wiki at peril of your permissions" the IRC channels would be a wasteland overnight.

Optionally, they could go to freenode and say, "We're putting in employee sysops. Please hand up the credentials."

Thirdly, and my favorite, they could auto-log all channels with *wiki* in the channel name and publish the logs in a public, searchable location. Talk about your ghost towns/channels.