Wow.
What a coward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 70573#Note
A communications difference, then; my motivation was to avoid the Streisand Effect and more backroom biting. Again, while the community are my bosses as a sysop, I'm not best suited to evaluate their overall opinion of me; the Arbitration Committee is, if nothing else, better-suited than I am. Ironholds (talk) 22:21, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
While I agree ArbCom is in a better position than you are to determine the community's overall opinion of you, the entity in the best position to determine that - by an extraordinarily wide margin - is the community itself. That's what RFA's are for; I'll again request that you go through another one to confirm that you still have their trust. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
The same argument could be made for, well, any user dispute ArbCom has ever dealt with. The fact that the Committee exists is indicative of the fact that community workflows, particularly around user disputes, are not necessarily ideal. And I'd disagree; at the last election the number of voters vastly outnumbered the number of participants in, well, every RfA ever held, to my knowledge. If what we're looking for is representation of the community's overall opinions on behavioural issues and propriety, the Committee is in some ways in a better place to speak with authority than ~100 users at RfA. They represent more voices, even if those voices aren't heard directly. Ironholds (talk) 22:41, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
But an ArbCom case and admin recall have very different criteria; ArbCom is looking to see if you've violated any policies that should result in an involuntary desysop. Recall/reconfirmation is looking to see if you still have the trust of the community. It is possible to survive an ArbCom case with your bit intact, but not have the trust of the community.
There is currently no mechanism in place to remove the bit from someone who no longer has the trust of the community, but who has not risen to the level of an ArbCom-enforced desysop. Recall, exists, but it is voluntary. But you said in the past, and reconfirmed in the past week or so, that you believe in admin recall, and are open to it. If the only mechanism for bit removal you're willing to respect is ArbCom, what exactly do you mean by that? --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
That makes a lot of sense. Recall exists, yes, and I'm open to it, but what precisely it constitutes - that is, the precise community disquiet necessary, whether it's a reconfirmation or a voluntary desysop, etc - is something that, I will admit, I've been deficient in thinking on, hence the not getting around to writing recall criteria. I'm willing to respect mechanisms other than ArbCom, but the precise details are, again, something I was deficient in identifying. Ironholds (talk) 23:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Would you like to borrow mine? You should come up with something; it's not really kosher to say you're open to recall, but unfortunately you can't be recalled because you haven't got any criteria. That's functionally indistinguishable from "I'm not open to recall". --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:24, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
That seems reasonable enough, and in the future I'm happy to use it - but as it says, fiddling recall about one way or another in situ is somewhat problematic. Ironholds (talk) 23:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
It's not problematic at all, when there is otherwise no way whatsoever to recall you. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
It seems clear we're not going to agree here. Once again, I consider the Committee pretty well suited to decide whether I'm competent enough to continue to hold the tools; for future instances, I will set up a recall mechanism, most probably based on yours, which seems eminently reasonable. On other points we seem to disagree, I'm afraid. Ironholds (talk) 23:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
But we don't disagree at all; I think my criteria are eminently reasonable; you think my criteria are eminently reasonable; the recaller and the recallee both agree on criteria, so there can't possibly be a problem in using them now. If your concern is that using my criteria would somehow be seen as "gaming", I assure you that saying you wish you could submit to a recall, but your hands are tied and you can't, will be seen as "gaming" by many, many more people. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:57, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
It's absolutely clear that he'd never retaint he bit and he's DESPERATE to hang onto it.
That is the scrabbling of a rat, trapped in the corner by a terrier.