Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

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Jimbo tries his hand at some [[WP:OUTING]]

Unread post by Mason » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:13 pm

Jimbo posted this on his talk page today:
Jimbo wrote:== Snowden editing? ==
I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere. In the media there have been reports of user accounts used on various tech discussion sites by Edward Snowden. He was apparently quite an active person online, particularly a few years back when he was younger. It seems highly likely to me that he would have edited Wikipedia - most people who fit his profile (tech savvy, internet activist types) will have done so. Do we have any evidence of that, or suspicions about that?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Reactions ranged from folks putting on their Columbo hats to help with the hunt, to horrified shrieks of "[[WP:OUTING]]! [[WP:OUTING]]!"

Fram (T-C-L) hauled him to AN/I, where the brouhaha is still bubbling, despite the thread being "closed".

Poor Fram:
Jimbo wrote:Fram's disingenuous trolling is not welcome here

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Re: Jimbo tries his hand at some [[WP:OUTING]]

Unread post by thekohser » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:56 pm

Wow, that was fast -- this has already been picked up by the mainstream media outlet, Examiner.com:

Jimmy Wales breaks Wikipedia rules in hunt for Snowden
-- Gregory Kohs; June 25, 2013
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

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Re: Jimbo tries his hand at some [[WP:OUTING]]

Unread post by mac » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:24 pm

Jimmy Wales wrote:An open discussion of matters widely discussed in reliable sources with respect to how it may impact Wikipedia is in no way shape or form "outing". It should be emphasized that Fram has been asked to stay off my user talk page in the past, and that I consider his repeated appearances there with manufactured and implausible complaints like this to be harassment. I am not currently seeking that any sanctions be applied to him for this behavior. The reason that I'm curious is precisely because there is intense press interest in his online activities, and we may rest assured that reporters are already looking for any connections. It would be wise for us to understand the facts completely before hyped up news stories begin to circulate.
This is the second time in the last couple of weeks that Wales has claimed harassment, and now another Wikipedian is forbidden from posting to his talk page, despite that "open door policy" notice at the top. And isn't Snowden exactly the sort of editor that WP:OUTING is supposed to protect?

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Re: Jimbo tries his hand at some [[WP:OUTING]]

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:37 pm

I suppose I could be wrong, and perhaps time will tell, but I strongly suspect Jimbo is wasting his time. I guess I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Snowden had an account, and maybe made a few corrections here and there, but IMO there's almost no way he was a regularly-active Wikipedia user. Say what you want about his loyalty to the US government, the fact is he clearly opposes the use of software to intrude on the private lives of innocent people, and he doesn't seem to be motivated by revenge against any particular person or organization - if anything, his actions show concern for that kind of abuse being perpetrated by shadowy, anonymous figures with no accountability. So the last thing he'd want to be involved with is Wikipedia, other than maybe some other wiki site that's even worse.

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Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Volunteer Marek » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:07 pm


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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:15 pm

I personally think in general Snowden is an "innocent party" - a hero, in fact. Discussion of questions surrounding identity, famous people in the news, editing of Wikipedia, and so on are all well within the scope of discussions about how to improve the encyclopedia. One of the important roles that we play in the world is to encourage and emphasize openness, honesty, and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I didn't think Jimmy had it in him.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:12 pm

Vigilant wrote:
...One of the important roles that we play in the world is to encourage and emphasize openness, honesty, and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I didn't think Jimmy had it in him.
On the contrary, he's full of that sort of thing.

I mean, let's look at a known example of a Wikipedia user who, for quite some time now, has been active in the general topic are of US intelligence. Joel Rennie (T-C-L) used to be known as No barometer of intelligence (T-C-L) and Plausible to deny (T-C-L), among other names. He was blocked for sock-puppetry back in April 2009 by Rlevse (T-C-L), now known as PumpkinSky (T-C-L), though this is a minor detail.

Mr. Rennie's block has now expired and he's using his real name on Wikipedia, where he's regularly accused of having conflicts of interest and being guilty of copyright violations, among other things. His activity has been closely monitored and "investigated" by other Wikipedia users.

Presumably Jimbo thinks that if Edward Snowden had been editing Wikipedia, he'd have a long edit history that would look a lot like Rennie's, and his wishful-thinking-addled brain would probably assume that Snowden wouldn't have been treated anywhere near as badly as Rennie. But of course, Rennie is not employed by the US government, and Snowden was (though indirectly). It would have been extremely stupid for Snowden to risk exposure to that extent by editing Wikipedia, given how easy it would have been for the NSA to identify him.

Frankly, I suspect that if Snowden had even tried, he'd probably have given up trying to expose the NSA and concentrated on exposing Wikipedia itself, which in many ways is a much bigger problem.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Hex » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:21 pm

One of the important roles that we play in the world is to encourage and emphasize openness, honesty, and transparency.
...Except in the functioning of ArbCom.
My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia? -- JimboWales
Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:26 pm

Mods, it would appear that Marek has given us another thread on Jimbo and Snowden, to go with the first one. Except that he put this one in "News and Media", even though he didn't link to any news or media story about Jimbo hunting for Snowden. Though, there is such a news story out there.

Think this could be cleaned up?
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:32 pm

thekohser wrote:Mods, it would appear that Marek has given us another thread on Jimbo and Snowden, to go with the first one. Except that he put this one in "News and Media", even though he didn't link to any news or media story about Jimbo hunting for Snowden. Though, there is such a news story out there.

Think this could be cleaned up?
Mod. note: Topics merged in News and Media.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:33 am


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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:46 am

Go figure that an Examiner article that I put together on the commuter train ride into work, that I posted largely to keep my payment privileges intact (you have to publish at least once every 60 days to remain an "active" Examiner), would earn over 7,000 page views thus far, from Techmeme, Twitter, Reddit, and others.

Good thing Wikipedia doesn't allow Examiner.com links, huh?
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:49 am

thekohser wrote:Go figure that an Examiner article that I put together on the commuter train ride into work, that I posted largely to keep my payment privileges intact (you have to publish at least once every 60 days to remain an "active" Examiner), would earn over 7,000 page views thus far, from Techmeme, Twitter, Reddit, and others.

Good thing Wikipedia doesn't allow Examiner.com links, huh?
Jimmy Wales has answered a related question on Quora.
Jimmy Wales: Why does Jimmy Wales want to know if Edward Snowden has ever edited Wikipedia?

Based on everything that I have read so far, I am a big fan of Edward Snowden. I think he has done something courageous and for honorable and principled reasons. One of the things that I really like about what he has done is to be clear that his leaking has been selective and mostly in the abstract. He has not put any actual detailed operations against legitimate military targets in danger, but he has raised to public awareness some activity that is clearly shocking to most people - the sort of activity that deserves an open public debate.

It's well-known that he was active on the Internet as a young person. His youthful posts at Ars Technica have been widely discussed and analyzed, and paint a picture of him that helps us to understand how he grew into the man he is today.

I have invited a public discussion of public facts - NOT outing. It's worth noting that the person who wrote that article is the person who has circulated a photo of himself with a gun and a description fantasizing about a gun battle with me. Do not trust his spin, which is absurd.

As it turns out, it appears that no editing of Wikipedia has taken place by the usernames already discussed in that article. Remember, you can check this for yourself - all edits to Wikipedia are public.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:57 am

Jimbo's already weeping in the comments section of this one.
This story is false. I very explicitly told people not to "out" Snowden. I asked if there had been a discussion (of public information). Please update your story to emphasize that I am a strong supporter of Edward Snowden's actions.
Let's give him a Wikipediocracy welcome to Tech2, shall we?


Jimbo's also whining a lot on Quora, although I can't read everything there because I can't remember my fake account there, since one of their financial partners had me banned from Quora.

Ah, but I do see Jimbo's trotting out the old "gun battle" fib:
I have invited a public discussion of public facts - NOT outing. It's worth noting that the person who wrote that article is the person who has circulated a photo of himself with a gun and a description fantasizing about a gun battle with me. Do not trust his spin, which is absurd.
Edit: Wow, it turns out my original account has been unlocked on Quora!
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:34 pm

Well, it is no surprise that the community is confused.

Wales wants it both ways. On the one hand, WP:Outing (T-H-L) is supposed to be sacrosanct. Anyone is welcome to contribute anonymously/pseudonymously to Wikipedia, with an assurance that their identity must not be revealed on Wikipedia, unless they have revealed it themselves on Wikipedia first. As the policy says:
Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person voluntarily had posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia. Personal information includes legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, whether any such information is accurate or not. Posting such information about another editor is an unjustifiable and uninvited invasion of privacy and may place that editor at risk of harm outside of their activities on Wikipedia. This applies to the personal information of both editors and non-editors. Any edit that "outs" someone must be reverted promptly, followed by a request for oversight to delete that edit from Wikipedia permanently. If an editor has previously posted their own personal information but later redacted it, it should not be repeated on Wikipedia; although references to still-existing, self-disclosed information is not considered outing. If the previously posted information has been removed by oversight, then repeating it on Wikipedia is considered outing. [...]

Unless unintentional and non-malicious (for example, where Wikipedians know each other off-site and may inadvertently post personal information, such as using the other person's real name in discussions), attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block.

Threats to out an editor will be treated as a personal attack and dealt with accordingly.
Yet Wales seems to have asked Wikipedians to do precisely that – to speculate on which Wikipedia account(s) might be Snowden's:
Jimbo wrote:== Snowden editing? ==
I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere. In the media there have been reports of user accounts used on various tech discussion sites by Edward Snowden. He was apparently quite an active person online, particularly a few years back when he was younger. It seems highly likely to me that he would have edited Wikipedia - most people who fit his profile (tech savvy, internet activist types) will have done so. Do we have any evidence of that, or suspicions about that?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Do we know what usernames he used on other websites? I expect they might have the same name as a possible account on Wikipedia. However, I'm curious as to why we need to know? — Richard BB 08:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we 'need' to know. I'm just curious, and I imagine many other people would be as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Why do we care? This violates our outing policy, so please desist from attempting to connect Snowden to some Wikipedia account. Being "just curious" is no reason to out somebody. Reaper Eternal (talk) 10:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
This was also the conclusion of the closing administrator at the Administrators' Noticeboard:
Please do not attempt to identify any anonymous accounts Edward Snowden may have used to edit Wikipedia though - it's against policy for very good reason - it very rarely ends well - wrong accounts being identified, different people with the same names being mixed up and so on. Nick (talk) 11:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:shrug:

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:41 pm

I suppose Jimbo just learnt a lesson about vocalising his thoughts. I'm sure many a Wikipedian often thinks about whether particular people are active on Wikipedia, but Jimbo should know by now that this is an Inside Thought. Publicly, you aren't even supposed to think about who an editor might be. It is even more bizarre when someone like Cla68 can be banned for mentioning the public knowledge that someone is a particular id.

If someone had replied and said, "Oh, CreamPieandToothbrush is the editor. I know because it is mentioned on his blog." what would have been the result?

Jimbo is a bit thick at times, isn't he? All he needed to reply was "Sorry, a moment of idle speculation." though "evidence or suspicions" was a rather foolish phrasing. He is fairly transparent, and you could see he was looking for some personal spin to associate himself with the glory side of the story.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Zoloft » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:46 pm

thekohser wrote:Edit: Wow, it turns out my original account has been unlocked on Quora!
All your followers are gone. I followed you, anyone else who did before should latch on again, at least the ones reading here.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Smiley » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:14 pm

dogbiscuit wrote:Jimbo is a bit thick at times, isn't he?
Jimbo's a bit thick? ..Never!

Image

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:21 pm

Smiley wrote:
dogbiscuit wrote:Jimbo is a bit thick at times, isn't he?
Jimbo's a bit thick? ..Never!

Image
Yep, never try honesty when denial is an option... or not an option.

Edit: Ooops, Jimbo! In that tweet, Jimbo implies that he has tried to out him. He has had reports back that there is nothing obvious, so clearly he has looked or some of his acolytes have looked. He has just admitted to stalking Snowden, personally or via proxy.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:25 pm

Coverage in Der Spiegel:

Spurensuche im Lexikon: Wikipedia-Gründer sucht nach Edward Snowden
Jimmy Wales, Mitgründer der Wikipedia, bittet um Hilfe: Er will herausfinden, ob Edward Snowden in dem Mitmach-Lexikon unter Pseudonym mitgearbeitet hat. Die Suche verstößt allerdings gegen die Regeln der Community.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Hersch » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Midsize Jake wrote: Frankly, I suspect that if Snowden had even tried, he'd probably have given up trying to expose the NSA and concentrated on exposing Wikipedia itself, which in many ways is a much bigger problem.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:11 pm

For convenience here, the Twitter feed matching Wales and Snowden is quite interesting. Seems that Wales is the lone voice in the wilderness saying "but I didn't want to out his accounts!"

Wah wah, cry baby.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:16 pm

thekohser wrote:For convenience here, the Twitter feed matching Wales and Snowden is quite interesting. Seems that Wales is the lone voice in the wilderness saying "but I didn't want to out his accounts!"

Wah wah, cry baby.
All rather satisfying that his own words are the greatest weapon against him. Kudos, Greg. Is this the most damage he's had inflicted on him yet? He has just goofed majorly on the top subject of his main supporters, the joys of demographics, and it is all there in black and white and undeniable.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:02 pm

dogbiscuit wrote:
thekohser wrote:For convenience here, the Twitter feed matching Wales and Snowden is quite interesting. Seems that Wales is the lone voice in the wilderness saying "but I didn't want to out his accounts!"

Wah wah, cry baby.
All rather satisfying that his own words are the greatest weapon against him. Kudos, Greg. Is this the most damage he's had inflicted on him yet? He has just goofed majorly on the top subject of his main supporters, the joys of demographics, and it is all there in black and white and undeniable.
This French article speculates he may just have been interested in the PR coup. Perhaps he was just jealous of Ars Technica, and feeling left out! :XD

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:11 pm

HRIP7 wrote:This French article speculates he may just have been interested in the PR coup. Perhaps he was just jealous of Ars Technica, and feeling left out! :XD
Yeah, that's probably correct. Connecting "his Wikipedia" with Snowden might lead to lucrative speaking engagements, and perhaps a foot in the door at the Ecuadorean embassy if he gets tangled up with the wrong brunette.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:37 pm

I don't have much to add to this hilarious incident, but I would like to point out that while Jimbo has definitely shot himself in the foot here (I believe the term is now "Plaxico'd himself"), the damage is mostly to his already-spotty reputation with Wikipedia's anonymity hard-liners. Nearly every non-Wikipedian reading this story is probably going to think the following: "Of course he'd want to know what Snowden's account was, if he had one - what's wrong with this wanting to know that? Why wouldn't anyone want to know that? Why shouldn't this information be revealed to the world?"

Snowden is front-page news right now, and nearly everything related to the story is getting heavy page-views - maybe even this thread, for all we know. But the Wikipedia Kommuniti obviously thrives in the shadows. The stupid thing Jimbo did wasn't to speculate on whether or not Snowden has a Wikipedia account (though he probably doesn't), it was to do it while the story is still hot.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:49 pm

HRIP7 wrote:This French article speculates ...
Pity how they don't even drop one back-link to the original scoop on Examiner.

(By the way, the Examiner story is up to 11,000 page views now.)

Edit: And so that I'm not a complete hypocrite, I've modified the Examiner article with an editorial note, thanking Wikipediocracy and Mason for first notice of this event. Gave two back-links, so maybe we'll share in some of all that Examiner traffic (though not terribly likely, as the average time-on-page of these recent visitors is only 15 seconds).
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:24 pm

thekohser wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:This French article speculates ...
Pity how they don't even drop one back-link to the original scoop on Examiner.

(By the way, the Examiner story is up to 11,000 page views now.)

Edit: And so that I'm not a complete hypocrite, I've modified the Examiner article with an editorial note, thanking Wikipediocracy and Mason for first notice of this event. Gave two back-links, so maybe we'll share in some of all that Examiner traffic (though not terribly likely, as the average time-on-page of these recent visitors is only 15 seconds).
Articles with backlinks include Der Spiegel and Der Standard, both leading publications in their respective countries. (Der Standard links to a Twitter exchange with Wales at the bottom.) About half of the other articles I've seen have one too.

Der Spiegel, too, now has a statement from Wales at the bottom:
Jimmy Wales has made a statement on the event. He says he is a "passionate defender of anonymity and privacy on the web" and dismayed to be presented differently. Following discussions, the Wikipedia community had indeed asked about possible activities by Edward Snowden in the online encyclopedia. He himself however had warned against an "outing".
This is so far from the documented facts that you really have to wonder about Wales' mental health at this point.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:03 pm

No surprise here, but the feeble-minded people who run Quora (and some of those who participate there) have found that the best answer to criticism of Jimmy Wales is outright censorship of the critic.
Gregory Kohs
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No need for anyone to read into my "spin" on Examiner. My story was based on facts, and everyone can read the facts -- that (at least initially) Jimmy Wales was encouraging Wikipedia activity that would violate the site's policy against outing of other editors who have not disclosed their identity.

It's also amusing that, since he cannot bring himself to refute the evidence in a one-on-one discussion with me (as an Examiner reporter), Wales resorts to his tried-and-not-so-true "gun battle" scare tactic. The photo of my shooting a gun was not "circulated" -- it was posted to my friends on Facebook. The picture had been published for over a year when I made a silly, throw-away comment to a friend who asked if I was planning on shooting anything with the gun, and I very clearly joked that since Jimmy Wales was a known gun enthusiast, I ought to have some practice in counter-fire. A completely inane comment, which (not surprisingly) Jimmy Wales has co-opted to paint me as some kind of dangerous lunatic.

It's really sad how far divorced from reality Jimbo has become.

This answer may need improvement. (more)

User was previously banned from Quora for multiple policy violations. This is a new account aimed at circumventing ban. This answer has been collapsed and locked.

2 Comments
Thomas Goodwin
Where is the evidence that Jimmy was "encouraging Wikipedia activity that would violate the site's policy against outing of other editors who have not disclosed their identity"?

You quote people who believe he was doing this, but that is their interpretation of a vague ask.


Danita Crouse
Gregory Kohs, you are brand new here on Quora (user #21104308), this being your first and only answer. So far, I'm not impressed. You are not following any topics, or other questions. Your suggested edits to Jimmy Wales answer are questionable and their intention suspect. I wonder about your motivation.

I didn't "circumvent" any ban. I just clicked on the button that said "Sign in with Google", and it took me to my old Quora account. More lies. No surprise.


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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by EricBarbour » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:30 pm

Courtesy of Mac, who stumbled onto this while looking for Quora criticism:

Quora! Quora! Quora!?
Look, Quora’s the little bitch company of the Valley. No one wants to beat up on it because it’s so sensitive and theoretically erudite and its parents are rich. But everyone knows it’s going to end up dead in an alley in a few years, after its folks finally give up on it and its friends ditch it for being so fucking desperate and whiningly overzealous all the goddamn time. For now everyone just sort of tolerates its little existence, mostly wishing it would just shut the fuck up about how great it is.

Let me tell you what Quora really is: Quora is the plaything of a couple of toddler lucktards who, not content with having somehow pocketed generational wealth by the age of 25, felt obliged to bestow upon us the be-all, end-all: the world’s “best source for knowledge." I’m serious about that shit — it’s their actual tagline. Not the writings of Isaac Newton nor the notebooks of Leonardo Da Vinci. Not the dozens of pre-existing question-and-answer sites. Not Wikipedia — a publicly-curated, global encyclopedia containing more than 25 million articles on literally every subject known to man. Not even, fuck, the very rise of the Internet itself — unarguably the greatest explosion of information delivery and content creation in history. No, these were but stepping stones for the unadulterated perfected brilliance that Charlie Cheever and Adam D’Angelo bequeathed in the form of Quora. Inimitable, quintessential Quora.
He (she?) apparently doesn't know that Jimbo is a principal in Quora, or that Quora mods are squelching all criticism of Jimbo and Wikipedia.
TechCrunch already outed the owner anyway. Looks like a she.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Wer900 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:30 am

EricBarbour wrote:Courtesy of Mac, who stumbled onto this while looking for Quora criticism:

Quora! Quora! Quora!?
Look, Quora’s the little bitch company of the Valley. No one wants to beat up on it because it’s so sensitive and theoretically erudite and its parents are rich. But everyone knows it’s going to end up dead in an alley in a few years, after its folks finally give up on it and its friends ditch it for being so fucking desperate and whiningly overzealous all the goddamn time. For now everyone just sort of tolerates its little existence, mostly wishing it would just shut the fuck up about how great it is.

Let me tell you what Quora really is: Quora is the plaything of a couple of toddler lucktards who, not content with having somehow pocketed generational wealth by the age of 25, felt obliged to bestow upon us the be-all, end-all: the world’s “best source for knowledge." I’m serious about that shit — it’s their actual tagline. Not the writings of Isaac Newton nor the notebooks of Leonardo Da Vinci. Not the dozens of pre-existing question-and-answer sites. Not Wikipedia — a publicly-curated, global encyclopedia containing more than 25 million articles on literally every subject known to man. Not even, fuck, the very rise of the Internet itself — unarguably the greatest explosion of information delivery and content creation in history. No, these were but stepping stones for the unadulterated perfected brilliance that Charlie Cheever and Adam D’Angelo bequeathed in the form of Quora. Inimitable, quintessential Quora.
He (she?) apparently doesn't know that Jimbo is a principal in Quora, or that Quora mods are squelching all criticism of Jimbo and Wikipedia.
TechCrunch already outed the owner anyway. Looks like a she.
Jimbo's, like Snowden's, sole purpose is to call attention to himself. Snowden accomplished it through the NSA leaks, while Jimbo does it through the (often much more dangerous) Wikipedia. At least Snowden is only 28 years old, and it's not hard to see a young man doing that sort of thing; Jimbo is in his 40s and should have grown out of such idiocy a long time ago. I wouldn't blame the "plankton" of Wikipedia (as valuable content contributors have been descibed) but rather the "sharks"—parasites who consume more than they could ever produce. If members of cabals and founders of fiefdoms are sharks, then Jimbo is a sea monster of enormous proportions. On this scale Snowden is just a slightly-bigger shark, if that.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Tarc » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:19 am

Wer900 wrote:Jimbo's, like Snowden's, sole purpose is to call attention to himself. Snowden accomplished it through the NSA leaks,
I'm sorry, what? If you think Snowden did what he did for 15 minutes fame, you're smoking up some choice crack there, bro. Being actively hunted across the globe, currently idling in a Russian airport hotel is not what a 30-something envisions as living the high life.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Cla68 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:48 am

Tarc wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Jimbo's, like Snowden's, sole purpose is to call attention to himself. Snowden accomplished it through the NSA leaks,
I'm sorry, what? If you think Snowden did what he did for 15 minutes fame, you're smoking up some choice crack there, bro. Being actively hunted across the globe, currently idling in a Russian airport hotel is not what a 30-something envisions as living the high life.
Yes. Snowden is a crusader. That's not a label I would use with Wales.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:21 am

Tarc wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Jimbo's, like Snowden's, sole purpose is to call attention to himself. Snowden accomplished it through the NSA leaks,
I'm sorry, what? If you think Snowden did what he did for 15 minutes fame, you're smoking up some choice crack there, bro. Being actively hunted across the globe, currently idling in a Russian airport hotel is not what a 30-something envisions as living the high life.
Truly, Wer900.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read here.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Wer900 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:53 am

Vigilant wrote:
Tarc wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Jimbo's, like Snowden's, sole purpose is to call attention to himself. Snowden accomplished it through the NSA leaks,
I'm sorry, what? If you think Snowden did what he did for 15 minutes fame, you're smoking up some choice crack there, bro. Being actively hunted across the globe, currently idling in a Russian airport hotel is not what a 30-something envisions as living the high life.
Truly, Wer900.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read here.
Okay, maybe I was wrong. But Assange, though...p. I don't see him as being someone of principle. Snowden is an idealist, and I respect him for that.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:24 am

From Jimbo's talk page:
The clarification in the final paragraph of Der Spiegel article reads (my translation follows): "Follow-up: Jimmy Wales has issued a statement on this issue. He is said to be a "passionate defender of anonimity and privacy on the web", and is dismayed to be presented differently. Following discussions, the Wikipedia Community did indeed question Edward Snowden's possible activity in the online encyclopaedia; Wales, however, is to have warned against an "outing". Where did the community discuss this issue beforehand? I find it very difficult to reconcile this account of things with the actual chain of events. WilliamH (talk) 10:26, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:01 pm

Actually, I am beginning to wonder whether there is a word, "er", missing in the Spiegel addendum (which seems to have been added in a rush; it has a typo). If you add that "er", the sentence becomes more idiomatic, and the meaning is less bizarrely at variance with the facts:
Nachtrag: Jimmy Wales hat eine Stellungnahme zu dem Vorgang abgegeben. Er sei ein "leidenschaftlicher Verteidiger von Anonymität und Privatsphäre im Web" und bestürzt darüber, anders dargestellt zu werden. Zwar habe er die Wikipedia-Community nach Diskussionen über mögliche Aktivitiäten Edward Snowdens in der Online-Enzyklopädie gefragt. Er, Wales, habe jedoch vor einem "Outing" gewarnt.
With that word added, the meaning changes somewhat:
Jimmy Wales has made a statement on the issue. He says he is a "passionate defender of anonymity and privacy on the web" and dismayed to be presented differently. He had indeed enquired about any Wikipedia community discussions about possible activities by Edward Snowden in the online encyclopedia. However, he, Wales, had warned against an "outing".
This is close to what he said at ANI:
I was just asking a very simple question: has there been discussion already in Wikipedia of various accounts that might be identified as his in the press. This is not about outing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)")
It would be a less bizarre statement to make – though it still misrepresents what happened: he didn't warn against outing Snowden until he had been warned by a number of people that his line of questioning was incompatible with the outing policy, and if there had been any community discussions of the type he was interested in, those discussions would have been in violation of policy.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:14 pm

HRIP7 wrote:It would be a less bizarre statement to make – though it still misrepresents what happened: he didn't warn against outing Snowden until he had been warned by a number of people that his line of questioning was incompatible with the outing policy, and if there had been any community discussions of the type he was interested in, those discussions would have been in violation of policy.
Yes, we need to keep a focus on this, no matter how much Jimbo spins it. You can't walk into a meeting and say, "I wonder if there is some way we could end the life of Phil Shubano without anyone tracing it to us," without that being interpreted as a murder plot, no matter how many times you later say, "No, I advised everyone not to commit murder! I was just wondering if there were any publicly documented ways one might end a particular person's life. That is not murder. I stand firmly and proudly against murder!"
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:49 pm

HRIP7 wrote:It would be a less bizarre statement to make – though it still misrepresents what happened: he didn't warn against outing Snowden until he had been warned by a number of people that his line of questioning was incompatible with the outing policy, and if there had been any community discussions of the type he was interested in, those discussions would have been in violation of policy.
That still misrepresents it. He was immediately warned against outing and he continued on...
Wow. Didn't take long for that one to explode into a big ol' ball of drama. Checking some of Snowden's aliases, I found one account that I'm curious about. Probably not him, and I guess I can't name it anyway. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 10:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Don't be intimidated - that drama isn't about Snowden, it's about drama for the sake of drama. If you aren't sure it would be appropriate to make it public, please do feel free to email me so that I can assess it. It seems likely that this is of interest to reporters as well, and so I think it is important that we be prepared with a full understanding of the facts. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
My concern is that your original post appears to be an invitation to ask people to post here information that risks Snowden's outing. That could have been a slip of the keyboard, but then your response when the outing issue was directly raised seems to suggest that it was intentional and you do not care if your question encouraged people to post such information. Do you think it is acceptable for people to speculate or provide evidence here of Snowden's WP identity? If you do, why isn't that outing? If you don't, why did you take the risk? DeCausa (talk) 11:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
It is not 'outing' when the user ids in question are already published widely in the media in reliable sources. I looked for a couple of variant spellings and found nothing, so I asked to see if others could find anything. I think it is not only acceptable but highly desirable for people to openly discuss such matters. If someone discovers or knows something that they feel would be inappropriate to post publicly, then they should send it to me privately.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
In other words, having been reminded of the outing policy, Jimbo:

a) actively solicits a user to communicate potential ids to him privately so he can investigate.
b) Makes up his own definition of the outing policy, which seems to suggest that if the person is outed off-wiki it is fine. Ahem!!

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Mancunium » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:37 pm

Congratulations to Mr Kohs and WO.

First Jimbo sets himself up to be portrayed as some sort of secret agent.
We at the NSA applaud our friend Mr. Wales's ingenious suggestion for Wikipedia users to "email" him "privately" with information on our friend Mr. Snowden. We hereby reassure Wikipedia users that we shall of course fully respect the privacy of the emails, in accordance with long-established NSA practice. Writegeist (talk) 16:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
When that sinks in, he calls Snowden a hero.
I personally think in general Snowden is an "innocent party" - a hero, in fact. Discussion of questions surrounding identity, famous people in the news, editing of Wikipedia, and so on are all well within the scope of discussions about how to improve the encyclopedia. One of the important roles that we play in the world is to encourage and emphasize openness, honesty, and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
But NSA director Keith Alexander has made it clear that he doesn't agree. link
What Snowden has revealed has caused irreversible and significant damage to our country and to our allies.
Will Jimbo's self-importance next cause him to believe that his "hero" accolade has placed him on NSA's enemies list, and to imagine spooks everywhere? Will he beg for asylum in the nearest Ecuadorian embassy? Will he and Julian be forced to share a small room? Will they and Snowden end up spending the rest of their lives together in a hut in the Ecuadorian jungle, like these people? link
No Exit (French: Huis Clos) is a 1944 existentialist French play by Jean-Paul Sartre ... It is a depiction of the afterlife in which three deceased characters are punished by being locked into a room together for eternity, and is the source of one of Sartre's most famous and most often misinterpreted quotations, l'enfer, c'est les autres ("Hell is other people"), a reference to Sartre's ideas about the Look, and the constant ontological struggle of being caused to see oneself as an object in the world of another consciousness.[2]
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:51 pm

I presume, given the worldwide media attention, that this episode should be added both to the List of Wikipedia controversies (T-H-L) and to Jimmy Wales (T-H-L)?
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:11 pm

Mancunium wrote:Will he beg for asylum in the nearest Ecuadorian embassy? Will he and Julian be forced to share a small room? Will they and Snowden end up spending the rest of lives together in a hut in the Ecuadorian jungle, like these people?
More likely, this is how Jimbo is imagining his would-be stay in Ecuador.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:51 pm

Well, Greg, your article has made it into the Signpost as well (as has the Daily Dot article).

(I did contribute some In briefs to this edition of the Signpost, but left the two lead stories to my Signpost colleagues.)

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by rhindle » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:29 am

thekohser wrote:I presume, given the worldwide media attention, that this episode should be added both to the List of Wikipedia controversies (T-H-L) and to Jimmy Wales (T-H-L)?

That now means wikipedia has had at least one controversy for every month this year and we're now half way through with it.

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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:30 am

rhindle wrote:
thekohser wrote:I presume, given the worldwide media attention, that this episode should be added both to the List of Wikipedia controversies (T-H-L) and to Jimmy Wales (T-H-L)?

That now means wikipedia has had at least one controversy for every month this year and we're now half way through with it.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:53 am

thekohser wrote:I presume, given the worldwide media attention, that this episode should be added both to the List of Wikipedia controversies (T-H-L) and to Jimmy Wales (T-H-L)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =561173716

Ever noticed that Wales' bio is constantly being diddled and watched by hardcore Wikipedia "social climbers"?
Lately it's been Beyond My Ken, Bonkers The Clown, and assorted non-persons. Plus, there was a blindingly-stupid editwar
back in March, in which someone kept inserting "the most gazest man in the world" into the first sentence.
(cur | prev) 23:25, 14 March 2013‎ Ducknish (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (75,024 bytes) (-34)‎ . . (Reverted edits by Grumpanelli (talk) to last revision by Ducknish (HG))
(cur | prev) 23:24, 14 March 2013‎ Grumpanelli (talk | contribs)‎ . . (75,058 bytes) (+34)‎ . . (edit summary removed)
(cur | prev) 23:21, 14 March 2013‎ Ducknish (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (75,024 bytes) (-34)‎ . . (Reverted edits by Grumpanelli (talk) to last revision by TBrandley (HG))
(cur | prev) 23:20, 14 March 2013‎ Grumpanelli (talk | contribs)‎ . . (75,058 bytes) (+34)‎ . . (Reverted vandalism)
(cur | prev) 23:18, 14 March 2013‎ TBrandley (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (75,024 bytes) (-34)‎ . . (Reverted edits by Grumpanelli (talk) to last version by Msundqvist)
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:01 am

Wnt offers up a nice metaphor for the cause...
Now what message can we take home from this? Well, I've normally thought of the Spiegel as having a good reputation - I think - but here they seem to have swallowed what less considerate young ladies would have spit out, straight from Gregory Kohs' vaunted Examiner self-publication - complete even with the "co-founder" dig. Wnt (talk) 08:44, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by thekohser » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:51 pm

SB_Johnny wrote:Wnt offers up a nice metaphor for the cause...
Now what message can we take home from this? Well, I've normally thought of the Spiegel as having a good reputation - I think - but here they seem to have swallowed what less considerate young ladies would have spit out, straight from Gregory Kohs' vaunted Examiner self-publication - complete even with the "co-founder" dig. Wnt (talk) 08:44, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Isn't it interesting how when the mainstream media documents something that's critical of Governor Rick Perry, it's perfectly reliable for sourcing in an encyclopedia; and when it documents something that's critical of Mick Jagger, it's perfectly reliable for sourcing in an encyclopedia; and when it documents something that's critical of Jeffrey Immelt, it's perfectly reliable for sourcing in an encyclopedia?

But when the mainstream media documents something that's critical of Jimmy Wales, it's just cum-swallowing?
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Hersch » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:42 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Tarc wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Jimbo's, like Snowden's, sole purpose is to call attention to himself. Snowden accomplished it through the NSA leaks,
I'm sorry, what? If you think Snowden did what he did for 15 minutes fame, you're smoking up some choice crack there, bro. Being actively hunted across the globe, currently idling in a Russian airport hotel is not what a 30-something envisions as living the high life.
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That's the dumbest thing I've ever read here.
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Re: Did Snowden edit Wikipedia?

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:23 pm

"Less considerate"...? That's one of the most disgustingly sexist things I've seen posted on Jimbo's talk page in a long time, and that's saying something. No wonder they turn away women like, uh... well, actually, I'm struggling to come up with an analogy here for a similar organization that's as effective at turning away women. Even Augusta National is doing better than Wikipedia at this point...

Mind you, not everything in that TL;DR post by Wnt (T-C-L) is completely off-base, but either way, I'm still flabbergasted that so many of these people would tend to assume that someone like Edward Snowden would have been an active Wikipedia editor. It's completely wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm not saying he didn't have an account, but I'd say the chances that he did more than, say, 2 edits a month are very, very small.

If Snowden settles in a country where he's both safe from extradition and has reliable internet access, then I could definitely see him becoming a Wikipedian - after all, he'll have some revenge issues to work out, won't he.

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