Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Eric Corbett » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:18 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm
Arbcom has never exactly been a beacon of consistency. No doubt, the members are clever enough to be able to explain away the inconsistencies as being due to special factors.
"Special factors" that will no doubt be secret.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:58 pm

Eric Corbett wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:18 pm
Poetlister wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm
Arbcom has never exactly been a beacon of consistency. No doubt, the members are clever enough to be able to explain away the inconsistencies as being due to special factors.
"Special factors" that will no doubt be secret.
It's this simple: different Arbs frame different cases. If a dumb Friend of Kudpung (aka a DumbFOK) presents the outcome in such a way that Arbs are voting whether to shake his hand or give him a kiss on the lips, that determines what will result. If they present the choice as immolation vs. decapitation, that will determine the likely outcome.

BHG drew a hangin' judge. This doesn't mean that Kudpung will.

RfB

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:20 pm

It's an old tradition. Over 200 years ago, Richard Brinsley Sheridan said
The glorious uncertainty of the law was a thing well known and complained of, by all ignorant people, but all learned gentleman considered it as its greatest excellency.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Eric Corbett » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:23 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Eric Corbett wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:18 pm
Poetlister wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm
Arbcom has never exactly been a beacon of consistency. No doubt, the members are clever enough to be able to explain away the inconsistencies as being due to special factors.
"Special factors" that will no doubt be secret.
It's this simple: different Arbs frame different cases. If a dumb Friend of Kudpung (aka a DumbFOK) presents the outcome in such a way that Arbs are voting whether to shake his hand or give him a kiss on the lips, that determines what will result. If they present the choice as immolation vs. decapitation, that will determine the likely outcome.

BHG drew a hangin' judge. This doesn't mean that Kudpung will.

RfB
In the case of real judges there is a right of appeal.

In the case of Kudpung though, I think we all know that there will an admonishment at the very worst, whatever the real merits of the case.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:36 am

Eric Corbett wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:23 am
In the case of Kudpung though, I think we all know that there will an admonishment at the very worst, whatever the real merits of the case.
My guess is the choice will be: (a) de-sysop (fails 2-10 or whatever); (b) admonishment (passes narrowly); (c) cautioned to be nice (passes but as a second choice option).

RfB

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Eric Corbett » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:58 pm

Sounds about right.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:31 pm

I can live with it.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm

Hehehe

If BHG gets desysoped and Kudpung does not, I suspect there will be some tense backchannel conversations with WMF/T&S/AC.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:22 am

Vigilant wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm
Hehehe

If BHG gets desysoped and Kudpung does not, I suspect there will be some tense backchannel conversations with WMF/T&S/AC.
This depends if she or her friends scream to WMF about gender bias. I honestly don't see that as a likely outcome. I think she's burned out; our exchange on her talk page was telling.
Carrite wrote:Arbcom decision redux

Nobody cares about an Arbcom finding of fact three minutes after it is archived. Don't scramble your password just yet; take a month or two off finding other things to which you might volunteer your time. If working on Wikipedia still makes sense after a period of cooling off and looking around, come back strong! There are many here, myself included, who hope that you do. If other ways to volunteer make sense for you, do those. Just make like an Ent and don't be hasty. Carrite (talk) 9:41 am, 31 Jan. 2020 (UTC−8)
BHG wrote:Thank you, @Carrite. I am thinking a lot about all the wonderful encouragement and support I have had in the last few days from you and others. It has been quite overwhelming to find so much kindness from so many.

But my three-score-and-ten is ticking away towards its limit, and I need to think long and hard about how to use whatever years are left to me. There's a time for everything, and the discomfort of this ugly episode may be a sign that I should finally take firm action to clear space to do the substantive writing which many of friends rightly accuse me of dodging. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:27 am, 31 Jan. 2020 (UTC−8)
Carrite wrote:I've cut my WP content writing time way, way, way back for a couple years now to work on a book series so I know exactly of what you speak. I'm the last person to fault you for that decision. But there's no need to scramble a password even if you do go that route — let it sit. Come back if it feels right and seems important; correct two typos a year if it doesn't. If you're like me, you'll be using WP as a book-writer even if you don't write much for WP when you're so engaged. All the best either way, —tim /// Carrite (talk) 11:36 am, 31 Jan. 2020 (UTC−8)

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Beeblebrox » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:11 am

Not saying you're wrong, arbcom is notoriously inconsistent, but that isn't the only factor that influences results. Quality and quantity of evidence, level of input from the community, and behavior during the case itself can all influence the final decision. In BHG's case she unfortunately only seemed to see the light after it became clear she was going to get her tools yanked. That's rather too late.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:09 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:11 am
Not saying you're wrong, arbcom is notoriously inconsistent, but that isn't the only factor that influences results. Quality and quantity of evidence, level of input from the community, and behavior during the case itself can all influence the final decision. In BHG's case she unfortunately only seemed to see the light after it became clear she was going to get her tools yanked. That's rather too late.
Has Kudpung sent he light yet?
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:15 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:09 pm
Beeblebrox wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:11 am
Not saying you're wrong, arbcom is notoriously inconsistent, but that isn't the only factor that influences results. Quality and quantity of evidence, level of input from the community, and behavior during the case itself can all influence the final decision. In BHG's case she unfortunately only seemed to see the light after it became clear she was going to get her tools yanked. That's rather too late.
Has Kudpung sent he light yet?
Not certain if he's seen the light, but he is inconsistently expounding - as well as attempting to nuzzle RfBs nuts:

Since I'm mentioned in this thread along with {{U|Newyorkbrad}}, because any kind of self-defense at Arbcom is characterised as 'doubling down' or whingeing, I'm not even watching my case and don't know what is going on there, but I would not be surprised at all if Iridescent's interpretation is wholly accurate. I am extremely saddened by the outcome of {{U|BrownHairedGirl}}'s case (which I ''have'' read), but with most of the new committee members being 'new sheriffs in town' I can't see them listening much to the advice of more experienced arbitrators, such as perhaps those who are able to look at cases with the cold and neutral detachment of a lawyer's mind. As far as I know, and from emails I have received, anyone on that Committee who has worked closely with me in the past and who knows me personally and shared a glass of wine over dinner with me in NYC, D.C., HK, London, Oxford, Esino Lario, Paris, Berlin, or Bangkok, has recused themselves, so BHG may not be the only sacrificial victim in 2020 which has begun with an almost unprecedented number of cases against admins who appear to have fallen foul of either simply doing their job, or having been trolled and baited to the point of boiling over, and thence fallen out of favour. Woe betide anyone on Wikipedia who admits to having reached, nearly reached, or passed, their three-score-years-and-ten, you've all been around too long, are too old, probably too qualified, and the place for you is the scrap heap or the knacker's yard. And the two most interesting and intelligent places left on Wikipedia that dare to utter some home truths are this talk page and {{U|Carrite}}'s user page. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[/b]
My three-score-and-ten came and went and I'm ticking along on borrowed time according to my physician, so I hardly have time for those who use their claims of PSTD as an excuse for ''their'' behaviour to insult, harass, and bait admins in the hope of a reaction they can complain about, or get away with paid editing. I haven't forgotten Jimbo Wales' 'civility' speech 2014 in London and the message he was trying to impart without directly naming names of people who have deliberately made breaches of civility their stock-in-trade for years. At Arbcom, defence is characterised as 'doubling down' , so in my case I'm not even watchlisting Arbcom. In the words of {{U|Iridescent}}: {{tq|...something as blatantly "verdict first, trial later" as this one. I've semi-joked before that it's possible to predict the outcome of arbcom cases before they even take place just by looking at the personal grudges of the participants and calculating how far they each think they'll be able to push their preferred outcome and still call it a compromise, but I'm not sure I can recall an example this blatant before.}} When It's all over and done with, I'll also probably be scrambling my password, but maybe not until I've had the opportunity of meeting some friends and enemies alike at the next Wikimania which will be taking place in a few months right on my doorstep. And then I'll have more time to spend with my adult grand children, get back to composing some serious music, and write some more books. BrownHairedGirl, your work on Wikipedia will be sorely missed, but I know how you feel. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 04:12, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
So he doesn't watchlist AC, is not following his own case but has a clear view on how it will work out based on the participants contributions? :blink:

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by ZettaComposer » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:41 pm

A Knight in Shining Armor Don Quixote in the form of Buffs has charged headfirst into the Workshop page and presented a long confusing mess wherein Buffs basically looks at everyones evidence and says “you are wrong, Kudpung is innocent.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... g/Workshop

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Eric Corbett » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:45 pm

I doubt that'll wash.

The usual ArbCom strategy is to assume that everyone is guilty because there's a case, but to varying degrees, which is reflected in the punishments handed down.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:59 pm

Jans Hammer wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:15 pm
Vigilant wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:09 pm
Beeblebrox wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:11 am
Not saying you're wrong, arbcom is notoriously inconsistent, but that isn't the only factor that influences results. Quality and quantity of evidence, level of input from the community, and behavior during the case itself can all influence the final decision. In BHG's case she unfortunately only seemed to see the light after it became clear she was going to get her tools yanked. That's rather too late.
Has Kudpung sent he light yet?
Not certain if he's seen the light, but he is inconsistently expounding - as well as attempting to nuzzle RfBs nuts:

Since I'm mentioned in this thread along with {{U|Newyorkbrad}}, because any kind of self-defense at Arbcom is characterised as 'doubling down' or whingeing, I'm not even watching my case and don't know what is going on there, but I would not be surprised at all if Iridescent's interpretation is wholly accurate. I am extremely saddened by the outcome of {{U|BrownHairedGirl}}'s case (which I ''have'' read), but with most of the new committee members being 'new sheriffs in town' I can't see them listening much to the advice of more experienced arbitrators, such as perhaps those who are able to look at cases with the cold and neutral detachment of a lawyer's mind. As far as I know, and from emails I have received, anyone on that Committee who has worked closely with me in the past and who knows me personally and shared a glass of wine over dinner with me in NYC, D.C., HK, London, Oxford, Esino Lario, Paris, Berlin, or Bangkok, has recused themselves, so BHG may not be the only sacrificial victim in 2020 which has begun with an almost unprecedented number of cases against admins who appear to have fallen foul of either simply doing their job, or having been trolled and baited to the point of boiling over, and thence fallen out of favour. Woe betide anyone on Wikipedia who admits to having reached, nearly reached, or passed, their three-score-years-and-ten, you've all been around too long, are too old, probably too qualified, and the place for you is the scrap heap or the knacker's yard. And the two most interesting and intelligent places left on Wikipedia that dare to utter some home truths are this talk page and {{U|Carrite}}'s user page. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[/b]
My three-score-and-ten came and went and I'm ticking along on borrowed time according to my physician, so I hardly have time for those who use their claims of PSTD as an excuse for ''their'' behaviour to insult, harass, and bait admins in the hope of a reaction they can complain about, or get away with paid editing. I haven't forgotten Jimbo Wales' 'civility' speech 2014 in London and the message he was trying to impart without directly naming names of people who have deliberately made breaches of civility their stock-in-trade for years. At Arbcom, defence is characterised as 'doubling down' , so in my case I'm not even watchlisting Arbcom. In the words of {{U|Iridescent}}: {{tq|...something as blatantly "verdict first, trial later" as this one. I've semi-joked before that it's possible to predict the outcome of arbcom cases before they even take place just by looking at the personal grudges of the participants and calculating how far they each think they'll be able to push their preferred outcome and still call it a compromise, but I'm not sure I can recall an example this blatant before.}} When It's all over and done with, I'll also probably be scrambling my password, but maybe not until I've had the opportunity of meeting some friends and enemies alike at the next Wikimania which will be taking place in a few months right on my doorstep. And then I'll have more time to spend with my adult grand children, get back to composing some serious music, and write some more books. BrownHairedGirl, your work on Wikipedia will be sorely missed, but I know how you feel. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 04:12, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
So he doesn't watchlist AC, is not following his own case but has a clear view on how it will work out based on the participants contributions? :blink:
He, like Trump, assumes the fix is in.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:09 pm

Kudpung wrote: And the two most interesting and intelligent places left on Wikipedia that dare to utter some home truths are this talk page and {{U|Carrite}}'s user page. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[/b]
My head did a 360 when he pinged me to say that. I'm not sure what to make of it, he has never sent a "paid editor" like me a Christmas card before...

I do have a pretty interesting User page, if I do say so myself, strewn with quotes from the Cesspit called Wikipediocracy. link

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Kudpung wrote: And the two most interesting and intelligent places left on Wikipedia that dare to utter some home truths are this talk page and {{U|Carrite}}'s user page. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[/b]
My head did a 360 when he pinged me to say that. I'm not sure what to make of it, he has never sent a "paid editor" like me a Christmas card before...

I do have a pretty interesting User page, if I do say so myself, strewn with quotes from the Cesspit called Wikipediocracy. link

tim
Maybe he's looking for friends or hoping you will not weigh in with evidence / workshop. (I was hoping you would, or at least associate yourself with it). It's part of his seduction process :evilgrin:

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:10 am

Jans Hammer wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
Randy from Boise wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Kudpung wrote: And the two most interesting and intelligent places left on Wikipedia that dare to utter some home truths are this talk page and {{U|Carrite}}'s user page. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 03:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[/b]
My head did a 360 when he pinged me to say that. I'm not sure what to make of it, he has never sent a "paid editor" like me a Christmas card before...

I do have a pretty interesting User page, if I do say so myself, strewn with quotes from the Cesspit called Wikipediocracy. link

tim
Maybe he's looking for friends or hoping you will not weigh in with evidence / workshop. (I was hoping you would, or at least associate yourself with it). It's part of his seduction process :evilgrin:
The evidence phase is closed, so it's not that.

I've never been a particularly big fan of throwing rocks during a public stoning.

Now, if he has tools pulled and tries running another RFA gauntlet, that's altogether another bucket of rotting produce...

RfB

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:03 am

ZettaComposer wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:41 pm
A Knight in Shining Armor Don Quixote in the form of Buffs has charged headfirst into the Workshop page and presented a long confusing mess wherein Buffs basically looks at everyones evidence and says “you are wrong, Kudpung is innocent.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... g/Workshop
A sort of useful idiot I suppose..... :dubious:

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Osborne » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:13 pm

Jans Hammer wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:03 am
ZettaComposer wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:41 pm
A Knight in Shining Armor Don Quixote in the form of Buffs has charged headfirst into the Workshop page and presented a long confusing mess wherein Buffs basically looks at everyones evidence and says “you are wrong, Kudpung is innocent.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... g/Workshop
A sort of useful idiot I suppose..... :dubious:
A knight? Hmmm. More like a sleeper account that became active in March 2019.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:00 pm

Kudpung (T-C-L) may be admonished, particularly about "anti-administrator brigade", but even this could be voted down as not being actionable.

One of the drafters is Casliber (T-C-L), who is competent, intelligent, and benevolent.

Even recused, Newyorkbrad (T-C-L) may publicly comment on any sanction, suggesting that Kudpung shall (almost certainly) already have "taken on board" comments about his behavior.

For my part, Kudpung's behavior was in an acceptable range of crochety, somewhat obsessive, but not ill intentioned. Arbcom should not micromanage (with its over-powered toolbox) behavioral issues that are better addressed by comments in passing, gently, and occasionally.

If one takes sexism seriously, how does one respond to a public accusation of sexism? Better than Kudpung's first responses, one wishes, but likely with some irritation or even anger if the public accusation was unwarranted (and the concern could have been expressed privately, encouraging Kudpung to take corrective action on his own initiative).
Last edited by Moral Hazard on Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:30 pm

He is trivializing other people's concerns and refusing to engage in the case.

That alone should be enough to take the tools.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:36 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:30 pm
He is trivializing other people's concerns and refusing to engage in the case.

That alone should be enough to take the tools.
Wait until your prostate is the size of an orange and you cannot remember where you put your keys before passing judgment, Mr. Judo Coach!
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:37 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:30 pm
He is trivializing other people's concerns and refusing to engage in the case.

That alone should be enough to take the tools.
In fact, not only declining to participate but by all accounts doubling down on the critical rhetoric in other places and saying, in terms, that he doesn't care less about editors with PTSD.
For this honest appraisal, a lesser editor that Iridescent would have been banned from Kudpung's talk page! link

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:37 pm

Moral Hazard wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:36 pm
Vigilant wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:30 pm
He is trivializing other people's concerns and refusing to engage in the case.

That alone should be enough to take the tools.
Wait until your prostate is the size of an orange and you cannot remember where you put your keys before passing judgment, Mr. Judo Coach!
There are plenty of ways to contribute that don't require the mop.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:58 pm

Jans Hammer wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:37 pm
this honest appraisal [by] Iridescent (T-C-L) [...] from Kudpung (T-C-L)'s talk-page link
Iridescent wrote: Driveby reply
- I'll reply substantively to this thread when I'm in a position to do so - but, Kudpung (T-C-L),

your comments here about "admins who appear to have fallen foul of either simply doing their job", "those who have demonstrated for years a general antipathy towards the corps of adminship", "editors who have been cruelly desysoped" etc seem to be another variation on your "anti-admin brigade" theory laced with what comes across as a rather creepy idea that admins constitute some kind of Wikipedia aristocracy who should be treated with more respect than the peons.
Whatever the intent, talking like this is doing you no favors at all. The case against you - both at the current case and on Wikipedia in general - has as its root "Kudpung (T-C-L) acts like he thinks he's earned the right to dish it out without having to take it", and regardless of your intent it's hard to read comments like these without wincing.

Sure, there are many fine people who are admins, and many horrible people who are rightly blocked; there are also many admins who are utterly incompetent and/or deeply unpleasant people, and there are many blocked and banned editors who are worthy of respect. (The latter doesn't just include those people blocked unfairly; there are many people who are blocked for valid reasons, or even globally banned, whose opinions are well worth listening to. Even if I'm not necessarily going to agree with their views, I'd take the views of someone like Eric Corbett (T-C-L) or Greg Kohs (T-C-L) far more seriously than I would those of most of the self-appointed Power Users who hang around at ANI, Jimbotalk, Signpost et al.)

I disagree with Amakuru's argument above in some respects - I have a strong impression that in both the RHaworth (T-C-L) and BHG (T-C-L) cases the committee are intentionally overreacting to relatively trivial complaints to try to send a "we're in charge" signal - but regarding you, his general point is spot on. As far as I can see the case against you boils down to "Kudpung (T-C-L) is an unpleasant person to be around to the extent that it creates a chilling effect on other editors". I personally don't think that's the case (with the disclaimer that I don't think I've ever had any significant interaction with you other than occasional "how can we make RFA less horrible?" threads where we've generally been on the same side), but you need to ask yourself why these allegations aren't being laughed out. Enough people are complaining - and from enough different backgrounds that they can't just be dismissed as a small-but-noisy faction being canvassed on IRC - that there's obviously some reason people are finding it difficult to get along with you.
Even if you never intend to touch Wikipedia again it would still presumably be valuable to engage honestly with these people and ask "what do you think I'm doing wrong?" so you don't end up needlessly offending people somewhere else; if you do intend to stay active here, it's just basic common sense to engage with people even when you don't agree with them.
As I said to Malleus (T-C-L) long ago (advice he admittedly didn't take), it's a good rule both for the internet and for life in general that if someone complains about something you do or say, even if you think the complaint is ridiculous, to not repeat whatever it was that caused offense unless you can genuinely justify it as necessary.

This case is almost certainly going to end with "Kudpung admonished", but this is one instance where for once I think it would be worth taking an arbcom admonishment seriously.
Iridescent (T-C-L) 2 22:09, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Osborne » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:16 am

I'd call that a drive-by shooting. BB Kudpung.
Ir wrote: creepy idea that admins constitute some kind of Wikipedia aristocracy who should be treated with more respect than the peons.
Although that's true, being accused of having that idea might be the last nail in this coffin.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:38 am

Iridescent is usually among the most sensible and level-headed people on WP (if that's not damning with faint praise). This goes back to the idea that there is a cabal that controls things and runs them to its own advantage. It can scarcely be denied that this must be true to some extent, though we've recently seen what happened to Fred Bauder, surely a former member of the inmost cabal circle.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:40 pm

Like Sandy Georgia, Iridescent could have been a policy- or intelligence-analyst.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:58 am

Moral Hazard wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:40 pm
Like Sandy Georgia, Iridescent could have been a policy- or intelligence-analyst.
I believe that he is or was an official at the Department for Transport. He may well have a policy advisory role.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:11 pm

Osborne wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:16 am
I'd call that a drive-by shooting. BB Kudpung.
Ir wrote: creepy idea that admins constitute some kind of Wikipedia aristocracy who should be treated with more respect than the peons.
Although that's true, being accused of having that idea might be the last nail in this coffin.
Sadly there does not appear to be a way for that to be introduced into the current workshop phase. :hrmph:

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Cla68 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:20 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:11 am
...and behavior during the case itself can all influence the final decision. In BHG's case she unfortunately only seemed to see the light after it became clear she was going to get her tools yanked. That's rather too late.
That looks suspiciously like WP-speak for "some groveling is necessary." That leads me to more strongly believe that this particular ArbCom case is a Maoist struggle session, WP-style. I think GorillaWarfare and Miss Vain are mistaken to bring identity politics into a case about admin civility, but if that's what they want to do, then why not go all the way with it? Force Kudpung to write an essay on toxic masculinity and white privilege in order to keep the tools since they can't physically force him to kneel inside the circle while GW and MV dump a bucket of rotten food on his head.

By the way, if arbcom really is cracking down on admin rudeness and snark, then that would probably be a good thing for WP. Problem is, once they've gotten all the admins to start acting in a more congenial way, then they'll need to start on getting the established, non-admin editors to do so also. Are they really willing to take that on?

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Eric Corbett » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:50 pm

"Some groveling is necessary" is the basis of any appeal at ArbCom.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:52 pm

The case's workshop phase feels very much like a reverse RfA, wherein the supporters of Kudpung are relentlessly badgering anyone who isn't on board with letting Kudpung skate for being a perennial dickhole.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:58 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:52 pm
The case's workshop phase feels very much like a reverse RfA, wherein the supporters of Kudpung are relentlessly badgering anyone who isn't on board with letting Kudpung skate for being a perennial dickhole.
Especially Buffs. Who is it? link

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:29 pm

Well, well. Very clever link
Comment by Kudpung: In my first statements on the Arbcom case request page, I said all I thought would be necessary for my participation here - simply because any defence I offer or any rebuttals are characterised as 'doubling down', so it is difficult to know what to say without it it being misinterpreted and/or taken out of context. I think the evidence presented here and the analyses by the various participants speak for themselves; I therefore see no real need to contribute beyond what I've already said; my non-participation should not be taken as a refusal to take on board any objective criticisms or that I don't consider anyone else's opinions to have any validity. Those who have spoken in my defense - for which I am grateful and humbled - are not part of a 'Kudpung inner circle' (there isn't one), in fact I I've never even interacted with one of them whose words are in fact more of an appeal for an equitable review of the evidence by the Committee. I will take the feedback here, trust the Committee to make that thorough investigation, accept their decision and apply it accordingly. I will however offer the following corrections to some of the claims that have been made:
With 2,696 different users having posted to my talk page over the years (total number of posts 19,355) I believe it is indeed 6 users who have been asked not to post there; in the course of my work there have been some heated comments and some by trolls, and I have politely asked some users to take their insults and baiting elsewhere, but I do not believe that 6 makes me a serial multiple banner of people from my talk page. I did not coin the phrase 'anti admin brigade'. It was first used by another editor but I thought it apt and used it a few times. Among the 22 or so uses of the term throughout Wikipedia, 3 are in a comment by Robert McClenon concurring with the description of the phenomenon so I fail to see how it is a personal attack. [43] Indeed, according to Jehochman, A personal attack is something that is personal. It has to target "somebody" specific, and it has to target their identity.[44]. I occasionally make warnings but no threats, and the few blocks I have made (considering I have been an admin for almost 9 years, I have never actually used the admin tools very often in my 100,000 edits) have been almost exclusively to vandals on a spree (I don't patrol the AIV page), and very clear cases of spam users. The use of justified warnings, whether templates or free-hand are something that every single editor is permitted to make, and I certainly do not bite or scare newbies.
I don't understand where I have criticised the current Executive Director of the WMF for being a woman - it's just not something I would do. I make no secret of being critical of the Foundation and its management and job descriptions, but my opinion is the same whatever gender they are in the positions they hold. The article in The Signpost which appears to have been interpreted as a deliberate misogynistic attack, actually speaks of Ms Maher as ' doing an excellent job as ambassador for the movement ', while, Cullen328 makes some poignant and accurate comments as to how that executive position could be improved. [45].
I have already admitted to occasionally not standing on ceremony and having 'a bark that is worse than my bite', but that is an idiomatic expression whose true meaning may not be evident to everyone. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 6:11 pm, Today (UTC+0)

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm

Jans Hammer wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:29 pm
Well, well. Very clever...
Yes, this is what we'd feared all along — after all this time, he finally figured out that hiring a speechwriter was his best path toward the desired slap-on-the-wrist.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:57 pm

Workshop closes 4 February 2020
curprev 18:11, 5 February 2020‎ Kudpung talk contribs‎ 185,716 bytes +3,830‎ →‎General discussion: cmt undo
??
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:59 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:57 pm
Workshop closes 4 February 2020
curprev 18:11, 5 February 2020‎ Kudpung talk contribs‎ 185,716 bytes +3,830‎ →‎General discussion: cmt undo
??
Clerks extended it by 24 hours earlier today. Suspect the hand of NYB or similar

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:04 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm
Jans Hammer wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:29 pm
Well, well. Very clever...
Yes, this is what we'd feared all along — after all this time, he finally figured out that hiring a speechwriter was his best path toward the desired slap-on-the-wrist.
Suspect he's had advice (NYB?). It is defo. not his style to be so obsequious. Also, Iridescent has told him he's been acting like a cock.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:07 pm

Perhaps they should let Teh Communitah decide Kudpung's fate.

Fram style RfA.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:16 pm

So, waiting until the very last minute and then making a good, hard, grovelly showing of penance while sacrificing your pride and dignity like a used condom at a truck stop in exchange for continued 'status' on a dysfunctional and backwater social media site is a new school move.

We'll call it the Kudpung!




He can rally his sunken spirit with shame filled mumbles of, "At least I'm still an admin!" all the while wiping the copious leavings of the ARBCOM bukakke session from his eyes.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Jans Hammer » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:16 pm
So, waiting until the very last minute and then making a good, hard, grovelly showing of penance while sacrificing your pride and dignity like a used condom at a truck stop in exchange for continued 'status' on a dysfunctional and backwater social media site is a new school move.

We'll call it the Kudpung!




He can rally his sunken spirit with shame filled mumbles of, "At least I'm still an admin!" all the while wiping the copious leavings of the ARBCOM bukakke session from his eyes.
and no doubt he'll be able to thank them with an even better time in downtown Bangkok :evilgrin:

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:41 pm

Jans Hammer wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:58 pm
Especially Buffs. Who is it? link
Buffs (T-C-L) used to be known as BQZip01. Failed to become an admin in 2008, when it was much much easier than today. This should probably give you an idea of their personality. Also, a cubmaster.

Edited to add that "BUFF" is a nickname for the B52 bomber. Short for "big ugly fat fellow" (and other things).

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:49 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:41 pm
Jans Hammer wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:58 pm
Especially Buffs. Who is it? link
Buffs (T-C-L) used to be known as BQZip01. Failed to become an admin in 2008, when it was much much easier than today.
Ever a poor judge of character wrote:Support. I'd have probably supported anyone in the US military anyway, but having come across this editor during the Jim Bowie FA I'm doubly inclined to support. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 03:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Giraffe Stapler wrote: This should probably give you an idea of their personality. Also, a cubmaster.

Edited to add that "BUFF" is a nickname for the B52 bomber. Short for "big ugly fat fellow" (and other things).
<snip> You might be right. Better safe than sorry.
Last edited by Vigilant on Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm
Jans Hammer wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:29 pm
Well, well. Very clever...
Yes, this is what we'd feared all along — after all this time, he finally figured out that hiring a speechwriter was his best path toward the desired slap-on-the-wrist.
I think the phrase is "fighting with mighty walls of text".
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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:28 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:41 pm
Buffs (T-C-L) used to be known as BQZip01. Failed to become an admin in 2008, when it was much much easier than today. This should probably give you an idea of their personality. Also, a cubmaster.
I should say, Mr. Buffs (T-C-L) has every right to be proud of his military service, which I think all of us (at least those of us in the USA) greatly appreciate. And to be honest, I've looked at some of his Wikipedia contributions, and I didn't see much that was objectionable, at least in "article space" — as you'd expect, he tends to focus on military topics, which has always been one of the more disciplined and well-organized subject areas on WP, even today. (This is in addition to scouting-related topics, natch.) To some extent that discipline probably comes into play when he gets into other topics as well. (There was an incident in October 2011 over the article about Kelly Flinn (T-H-L) where he rubbed some people the wrong way, but I can't say he was in the wrong.)

That said, I think it's safe to say that he's a social conservative (and probably a political one as well), which could suggest that he's defending Mr. Kudpung simply because he sees him as an innocent victim of "politically-correct feminist nitpicking." This diff from the Fram case last year, and also this Fram-related talk page thread should give folks some idea of where he's at, opinion-wise; he's right in both cases, but he could have expressed himself a little better, let's say. So while I wouldn't dismiss the notion that Kudpung did something nice and/or helpful for him once or twice in the past (who knows?), IMO there doesn't have to be a quid pro quo here.

Anyway, I don't really want to say anything nasty about Mr. Buffs, if only because he could easily be a Wikipediocracy member without our knowing about it. I'm just suggesting a possible motivation or two for his defense of Mr. Kudpung, based on what I'm seeing.

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:58 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:28 am
I should say, Mr. Buffs (T-C-L) has every right to be proud of his military service, which I think all of us (at least those of us in the USA) greatly appreciate.
I'm just getting tired of that. I'm not buying. It's a career path and one that offers a highly pensioned, medical-coverage-paid retirement after just twenty years on the job. A soldier has less chance of being killed on the job than a logger or a fisherman. When is the last time that anyone has "thanked them for their service" — actually producing something of value???

tim

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:23 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:28 am
Anyway, I don't really want to say anything nasty about Mr. Buffs, if only because he could easily be a Wikipediocracy member without our knowing about it.
This is all a bit off-topic but Jans Hammer asked who he was, so I took a quick look. Whether or not they are a member here, they wandered into the Kudpung case and drew our scrutiny for a little bit. I think we can safely go back to not caring about them again. But in a nice way, you know?

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Re: Glorious Kudpung takes on another prominent Wikiwoman

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:23 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:58 am
...A soldier has less chance of being killed on the job than a logger or a fisherman. When is the last time that anyone has "thanked them for their service" — actually producing something of value???
Ehh... no offense to anyone reading this, but when you get right down to it, most people don't produce anything of genuine value at their jobs. So I don't fault them for that.

So I say we wait until next January — if the military doesn't impede the effort to forcibly eject Trump from the White House after his crushing electoral defeat, or better yet, if they actually assist in ejecting him, then we can thank them, and deservedly so.

:)

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