Berean Hunter range-blocks half of Israel

[Icewhiz]

Berean Hunter(T-C-F-L) has just:
1. Range-blocked triple-C - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C ... 26.0.0/18- a major Israeli ISP for 3 years. (No hunter, this is not is not a proxy - but one of the top ISPs in Israel). You can see their internet packages here - https://www.kamaze.co.il/Companies/6437 ... t-Packages

2. Range blocked HOT (mobile + cable + ISP) - but "only" for 6 months - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C ... 2.160.0/20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C ... 6.128.0/20

So - cutting off like 25% of the Israeli internet from Wikipedia for 6 months.

Showing his true colors, Mr. Hunter thought it fit and proper to do the following edits:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928478595 - adding a Holocaust denier's opinion (David Cole, published in Taki) on Holocaust denial.
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928538210 - "President of the so called State of Israel"
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928823762 - describing Israel as Palestine (Acre, part of Israel since 1948).

And there are dozens of other outright vandalism examples in that revert spree by mr. Hunter.

Was mr. Hunter reverting a sock? Perhaps. However the sock account was reverting another sock (for those following - Claíomh Solais (T-C-L) has been fighting Yaniv) or vandal.

Good call Wikipedia.

[Icewhiz]

Also -
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928911024 - BLP violation - naming a journalist as a "notorious sex offender". Twice! Still there BTW.

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928833011 - restoring "Do Not trust wikipedia" to bottom of article. Still there. Ironic.

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928833022 - Erroneously changing Mandatory Palestine to Israel - which did not exist in 1938. Twice - still there.

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928833055 - removing "allegedly" - thus justifying medieval blood libel and a massacre. Still there.

Flipping through policy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... icy#revert - Many of Mr. Hunter's reverts fall foul of:

When reverting edits, care should be taken not to reinstate material that may be in violation of such core policies as neutrality, verifiability, and biographies of living persons.

Beyond outright vandalism and NPOV issues, there are serious BLP issues - rising to the level of libel (e.g. - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928911024)

[Ming]

Showing his true colors, Mr. Hunter thought it fit and proper to do the following edits:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928478595 - adding a Holocaust denier's opinion (David Cole, published in Taki) on Holocaust denial.
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928538210 - "President of the so called State of Israel"
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928823762 - describing Israel as Palestine (Acre, part of Israel since 1948).

These three look like sloppiness more than anything else.

[Randy from Boise]

Hey, the venerable Anti-Israel = Anti-Semitism trope gets a second thread at WPO!

I'm sure there are a couple English sorts who are very excited at the prospect...

RfB

[Zoloft]

I am verklempt.

[Ming]

A look at BH's talk page reveals a litany of "hey you screwed this up" messages.

[Beeblebrox]

Could we get the title of this thread changed to something with a basis in reality?
Like "Berian Hunter blocks half of Israel" or whatever is fine, making up lies about his motivations, not so much.

[Poetlister]

Hey, the venerable Anti-Israel = Anti-Semitism trope gets a second thread at WPO!

I'm sure there are a couple English sorts who are very excited at the prospect...

RfB

Even Randy's hero Jeremy Corbyn accepts the internationally approved IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which explains how refusing to acept the right of the State of Israel to exist might sometimes be anti-Semitism. That Randy refuses to accept it shows an attitude which, were it to be applied to any other minority, he would condemn unequivocally.

[Beeblebrox]

The government of Israel can and should be criticized like any other government. We can both recognize their right to exist and be critical of their actions, it really isn't that hard.
Yet some would have us believe that saying anything the least bit critical of the government's actions is the same as chanting "death to Israel".

It isn't.

[Midsize Jake]

Could we get the title of this thread changed to something with a basis in reality?
Like "Berian Hunter blocks half of Israel" or whatever is fine...

OK, done. I tried to come up with something funnier, but for some reason I'm feeling a little off today.

[Icewhiz]

The government of Israel can and should be criticized like any other government. We can both recognize their right to exist and be critical of their actions, it really isn't that hard.
Yet some would have us believe that saying anything the least bit critical of the government's actions is the same as chanting "death to Israel".

It isn't.

BH edits were not "criticism of the government of Israel". Specifically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928538210 + https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928538210 - are denial of the existence of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928478595 - inserts the opinions of Holocaust deniers on Holocaust denial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928833055 - treats antisemitic blood libel (in the truly literal sense - 1475 blood libel) - as factual.

None of this is criticism of the government of Israel. As for BH's motivations - one can only speculate. His actions, however, speak volumes, prima facie.

[Randy from Boise]

Hey, the venerable Anti-Israel = Anti-Semitism trope gets a second thread at WPO!

I'm sure there are a couple English sorts who are very excited at the prospect...

RfB

Even Randy's hero Jeremy Corbyn accepts the internationally approved IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which explains how refusing to acept the right of the State of Israel to exist might sometimes be anti-Semitism. That Randy refuses to accept it shows an attitude which, were it to be applied to any other minority, he would condemn unequivocally.

What I accept is that the premise of an "anti-Semitic left" is itself ridiculous, that the absurd definition of "anti-semitism" presented as an axiom here is a bit of bureaucratic malarkey, and that this whole topic is a conscious political plan of the Conservative Party for the purposes of elections, to divert attention from their failure on Brexit. Gobbled up by the Blairites, who are always anxious to follow their Tory friends.

tim

[tarantino]

Berean Hunter(T-C-F-L) has just:
1. Range-blocked triple-C - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C ... 26.0.0/18- a major Israeli ISP for 3 years. (No hunter, this is not is not a proxy - but one of the top ISPs in Israel). You can see their internet packages here - https://www.kamaze.co.il/Companies/6437 ... t-Packages

2. Range blocked HOT (mobile + cable + ISP) - but "only" for 6 months - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C ... 2.160.0/20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:C ... 6.128.0/20

So - cutting off like 25% of the Israeli internet from Wikipedia for 6 months.

Those two IP ranges are about 83,000 addresses and only blocked for anonymous editing and account creation. Those ranges could still be used if an account was created on a different range. There's lots of proxies, webhosts and cellular on them. All of T-Mobile is blocked the same way for a year. They have an estimated 59 million users.

[Beeblebrox]

What I'm seeing in those edits is BH doing a shitty job of reverting socks. It's a known risk when you spend all your time battling socks that sometimes you just revert without even looking at what you're reverting.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by just doing a half-assed job when you're in too big of a hurry.

[Ming]

[Midsize Jake]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928478595 - inserts the opinions of Holocaust deniers on Holocaust denial.

Now, this struck me as interesting for some reason. It's a fairly recent attempted addition (by an IP that geolocates to Seattle, WA) that could perhaps be charitably interpreted as an effort to show how Holocaust deniers are all mixed up to the point that they don't even get any respect from other Holocaust deniers, which is... sort-of good, right? In which case maybe you'd want to leave it in...? Or is it more of a "never give them an inch" or "don't give them any oxygen" rationale?

I agree that the other reverts he made were really stupid (and possibly anti-semitic too), but many of us have been saying knee-jerk sock-puppet reverts are stupid since the beginning, and you could apply Hanlon's razor (T-H-L) there — again, if you were inclined to be charitable.

[Icewhiz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928478595 - inserts the opinions of Holocaust deniers on Holocaust denial.

Now, this struck me as interesting for some reason. It's a fairly recent attempted addition (by an IP that geolocates to Seattle, WA) that could perhaps be charitably interpreted as an effort to show how Holocaust deniers are all mixed up to the point that they don't even get any respect from other Holocaust deniers, which is... sort-of good, right? In which case maybe you'd want to leave it in...? Or is it more of a "never give them an inch" or "don't give them any oxygen" rationale?

I agree that the other reverts he made were really stupid (and possibly anti-semitic too), but many of us have been saying knee-jerk sock-puppet reverts are stupid since the beginning, and you could apply Hanlon's razor (T-H-L) there — again, if you were inclined to be charitable.

The are many flavors of Holocaust deniers: neo-Nazis (some of whom deny everything), Russian nationalist/anti-communists (who try to downplay Hitler and shift Hitler's crimes to Stalin + tinge of traditional Russian antisemitism), self hating Jews of very varied stripes, and even fellows like David Icke who claim WWII (and the Holocaust) was a great lizard conspiracy (which some involves or is code for Jews).

One of the oldest tropes in the Holocaust denial book is differentiating one's self from other Holocaust deniers - e.g. "I accept that Hitler killed some Jews, shot some Jews, he just didn't build gas chambers at the so called extermination camps". That passage has - "David Irving is no longer a denier, if he ever was one. He accepts the fact that Jews were slaughtered en masse by mobile Einsatzgruppen....".

In short - nothing much new here - yes - Holocaust deniers criticize (and even strongly disagree) with other Holocaust deniers. David Irving and David Icke (lizards) come from very different places.

[Icewhiz]

What I'm seeing in those edits is BH doing a shitty job of reverting socks. It's a known risk when you spend all your time battling socks that sometimes you just revert without even looking at what you're reverting.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by just doing a half-assed job when you're in too big of a hurry.

You are assuming he looked at all. He is using a mass rollback tool and reverting hundreds of edits in seconds. He hasn't looked at all.

Considering this particular editor he is reverting mostly undos IP vandalism (half of BH's reverts were reintroducing random gibberish (e.g. ifgfkfj) to articles) - that's beyond careless. He even ran foul of REVERTBAN (e.g. introducing clear libelous BLP vios).

There was an ARBCOM case on mass rollback recently - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ollback.js -

MassRollback.js

3) massRollback.js is a user script that any registered user may install. While installed, administrators and rollbackers are shown a link-button to display a confirmation window and then to mass rollback the contributions of a selected editor. Mass rollbacking is equivalent to opening a user's contributions (up to 500 at once) and clicking each rollback link-button. The process is completed in a manner of seconds.

The massRollback.js user script was designed for use in combatting obvious, serious abuse. Before using the script, rollbackers or administrators are expected to review the target account's contributions and be sure that every edit needs rolling back.

Passed 11 to 0 at 18:08, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

GiantSnowman (T-C-L) nearly lost his tools.... (4 supports, 6 opposes).

Will BH, an elevated CU, but ridden roughshod like GiantSnowman for his careless (and from my check - this is habitual) and counter-policy use of tools? This is habitual by BH - his contribution feed has long runs of reverts performed in the same minute.

Probably not. ABRCOM is sympathetic to these sort of people these days.

[Randy from Boise]

Coming soon to my user page:

Beeblebrox's Law of File 13

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained as one just doing a half-assed job when they're in too big of a hurry.

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

...self hating Jews of very varied stripes...

I knew it wouldn't take you too long to get around to that hoary right wing nationalist trope, easily translatable as "Jews who disagree with me, the protector of One True Judaism."

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

Mark me down in favor of range-blocking IP editing for all of Earth, by the way.

RfB

[Icewhiz]

...self hating Jews of very varied stripes...

I knew it wouldn't take you too long to get around to that hoary right wing nationalist trope, easily translatable as "Jews who disagree with me, the protector of One True Judaism."

RfB

Nationalist trope? Rational outlook. I'm not particularly tied to Judaism.

The very few Jewish Holocaust deniers - such as Gilad Atzmon - are embraced as "token Jews" by the antisemitic radical left (A UK thing these days) and the antisemitic radical right (A US thing these days).

People who probably wouldn't have gotten any attention otherwise, get attention since they declare as Jewish - coupled with overt Holocaust denial or other antisemitic expressions.

[Poetlister]

The government of Israel can and should be criticized like any other government. We can both recognize their right to exist and be critical of their actions, it really isn't that hard.
Yet some would have us believe that saying anything the least bit critical of the government's actions is the same as chanting "death to Israel".

It isn't.

I think theis is a straw man. Of course the government of Israel is open to criticism. I don't think that anyone here would disagree. But there is a clear line between genuine legitimate criticism and the sort of thing that the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism condemns.

[Osborne]

What I'm seeing in those edits is BH doing a shitty job of reverting socks. It's a known risk when you spend all your time battling socks that sometimes you just revert without even looking at what you're reverting.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by just doing a half-assed job when you're in too big of a hurry.

In recent months Bbb23, Beetstra and now Berean Hunter all did a "shitty job of reverting socks", including the restoration of vandalism. To avoid these failures, the use of the rollback tool has strict rules, which they did not follow. Do you call a violation of rules "malice"? Does not matter. What matters is: they are causing damage to the encyclopedia. You don't need to apologize for them. What's needed to avoid such damage in the future is the appropriate person telling them to do a better job.

Burnout is a serious issue for long-term wikipedians that results in negligence, lazyness and superficial, bad decisions. Not to blame them for losing motivation to do a good job, however, if they've lost their motivation, it's better for the encyclopedia if they don't use their tools. Admining and especially checkuser is difficult, high-trust and high-responsibility roles. If one's not up to the task, they are not required to do it. They are volunteers, after all.

[Poetlister]

Hey, the venerable Anti-Israel = Anti-Semitism trope gets a second thread at WPO!

I'm sure there are a couple English sorts who are very excited at the prospect...

RfB

Even Randy's hero Jeremy Corbyn accepts the internationally approved IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which explains how refusing to acept the right of the State of Israel to exist might sometimes be anti-Semitism. That Randy refuses to accept it shows an attitude which, were it to be applied to any other minority, he would condemn unequivocally.

What I accept is that the premise of an "anti-Semitic left" is itself ridiculous, that the absurd definition of "anti-semitism" presented as an axiom here is a bit of bureaucratic malarkey, and that this whole topic is a conscious political plan of the Conservative Party for the purposes of elections, to divert attention from their failure on Brexit. Gobbled up by the Blairites, who are always anxious to follow their Tory friends.

tim

The left as a whole is not anti-Semitic. Nor is anti-Semitism confined to the left. But Randy's dismissal of the IHRA definition, accepted by the Labour Party, as "a bit of bureaucratic malarkey" is breathtaking. And of course the fact that the majority of Labour MPs, even such stalwarts of the left as Angela Rayner and Margaret Hodge, have condemned anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is dismissed as a Tory smear. Oh of course, Margaret Hodge is a Zionist so although she's lived in Britain all her life she doesn't understand English irony. But Angela Rayner isn't a Zionist as far as I know.

[Midsize Jake]

The very few Jewish Holocaust deniers - such as Gilad Atzmon - are embraced as "token Jews" by the antisemitic radical left (A UK thing these days) and the antisemitic radical right (A US thing these days).

No results found for "Gilad Atzmon" +token; six results found without quotes, none containing the word "token." (On the plus side though, this thread will soon be The One and Only!)

I hope you'll forgive me, but I've removed your underlining from the (still boldfaced) term, which may have suggested to some readers that there was a web page somewhere backing this up.

[Eric Corbett]

In recent months Bbb23, Beetstra and now Berean Hunter all did a "shitty job of reverting socks", including the restoration of vandalism. To avoid these failures, the use of the rollback tool has strict rules, which they did not follow. Do you call a violation of rules "malice"? Does not matter. What matters is: they are causing damage to the encyclopedia. You don't need to apologize for them. What's needed to avoid such damage in the future is the appropriate person telling them to do a better job.

None of them believe that the rules apply to them, so they run amok. Berean Hunter, to take just one example, caused far more harm to the encyclopedia that Dr Horncastle ever did by reverting all of the latter's edits, none of which were harmful.

More generally, I fail to see how organisations can be anti-Semitic, as opposed to the members of that organisation being anti-Semitic.

[Poetlister]

There is an organisation called Jewish Voice for Labour (JVL), set up to "prove" that many Jews do not support the idea that there is substantial anti-Semitism in Labour. It has been described thus:

“It is an organisation which is not just tiny but has no real connection with the Jewish community at all. It doesn’t represent the Jewish community in a way that JLM [the Jewish Labour Movement] clearly does represent the Labour wing of the Jewish community.”

Which Blairite Tory Breitbart contributor said that? Jon Lansman (T-H-L), yet another Zionist who doesn't understand English irony.

[Midsize Jake]

The left as a whole is not anti-Semitic. Nor is anti-Semitism confined to the left. But Randy's dismissal of the IHRA definition, accepted by the Labour Party, as "a bit of bureaucratic malarkey" is breathtaking.

I think he was just trying to be polite.

Also, Jeremy Corbyn did try to add an accompanying clarification to Labour's acceptance of the IHRA definition, which stated that it should not be "regarded as antisemitic to describe Israel, its policies or the circumstances around its foundation as racist because of their discriminatory impact, or to support another settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict," but I guess it was voted down.

[Eric Corbett]

There is an organisation called Jewish Voice for Labour (JVL), set up to "prove" that many Jews do not support the idea that there is substantial anti-Semitism in Labour.

I accept the idea that organisations can have aims, but not that they can have attitudes or opinions.

[Osborne]

In recent months Bbb23, Beetstra and now Berean Hunter all did a "shitty job of reverting socks", including the restoration of vandalism. To avoid these failures, the use of the rollback tool has strict rules, which they did not follow. Do you call a violation of rules "malice"? Does not matter. What matters is: they are causing damage to the encyclopedia. You don't need to apologize for them. What's needed to avoid such damage in the future is the appropriate person telling them to do a better job.

None of them believe that the rules apply to them, so they run amok. Berean Hunter, to take just one example, caused far more harm to the encyclopedia that Dr Horncastle ever did by reverting all of the latter's edits, none of which were harmful.

Indeed. That's why Beeblebrox should not be apologizing for them, but rather persuade them to care about the rules.

[Poetlister]

The left as a whole is not anti-Semitic. Nor is anti-Semitism confined to the left. But Randy's dismissal of the IHRA definition, accepted by the Labour Party, as "a bit of bureaucratic malarkey" is breathtaking.

I think he was just trying to be polite.

Also, Jeremy Corbyn did try to add an accompanying clarification to Labour's acceptance of the IHRA definition, which stated that it should not be "regarded as antisemitic to describe Israel, its policies or the circumstances around its foundation as racist because of their discriminatory impact, or to support another settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict," but I guess it was voted down.

I think John McDonnell and Jon Lansman persuaded him to drop his proposal.

[Beeblebrox]

Indeed. That's why Beeblebrox should not be apologizing for them, but rather persuade them to care about the rules.

I'm curious as to how me saying someone did a shitty job at their work constitutes an apology.

[Osborne]

I'm curious as to how me saying someone did a shitty [half-assed] job [in too big of a hurry] at their work constitutes an apology.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by just doing a half-assed job when you're in too big of a hurry.

That's how.

[Beeblebrox]

I'm curious as to how me saying someone did a shitty [half-assed] job [in too big of a hurry] at their work constitutes an apology.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by just doing a half-assed job when you're in too big of a hurry.

That's how.

No, it really, really isn't. Here's my actual, full quote:

What I'm seeing in those edits is BH doing a shitty job of reverting socks. It's a known risk when you spend all your time battling socks that sometimes you just revert without even looking at what you're reverting.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by just doing a half-assed job when you're in too big of a hurry.

I think it's perfectly obvious that I'm absolutely saying this was poorly done and should not have happened. I'm not apologizing for it or defending it, I'm just not buying Icewhiz's contention that it was done out of deliberate antisemitism.

[Osborne]

No, it really, really isn't. ... I'm not apologizing for it or defending it, I'm just not buying Icewhiz's contention that it was done out of deliberate antisemitism.

Then you need to be more exact, cause it does read like an apology, which is a recurring pattern in your communication. Maybe you don't notice, because you are so used to it.

[Beeblebrox]

No, it really, really isn't. ... I'm not apologizing for it or defending it, I'm just not buying Icewhiz's contention that it was done out of deliberate antisemitism.

Then you need to be more exact, cause it does read like an apology, which is a recurring pattern in your communication. Maybe you don't notice, because you are so used to it.

Alternatively, you could not make up novel interpretations of perfectly clear statements to support your own preconceived notions, just a thought.

[Ming]

The message behind the argument, apparently, is that administrative competence is not required, but anti-antisemitism is required.

[Icewhiz]

The facts are rather simple -

1. Berean Hunter incompetently uses mass rollback in a habitual fashion - restoring outright vandalism and BLP issues. The Yaniv mass-rollback is a good example of this - since 90% of the edits rolled back were Yaniv socks reverting vandal IPs - exactly the situation where mass rollback shouldn't have been used.

2. This week, Berean Hunter restored some serious antisemitic shit in his incompetent use of mass rollback.

3. Berean Hunter is an admin and CU.

Is Berean Hunter anti-semitic? No idea. I do know (from his user boxes) he's from North Carolina and a civil war buff - but really - no idea about the bloke beyond his user page.

However, it is clear that Wikipedia tolerates a CU's habitual incompetent use of mass-rollback, and that introducing antisemitic content is tolerated as well - and he's still a CU and admin.

[el84]

If there's an issue, isn't the correct method to sort it out now just email T&S?

[Poetlister]

The message behind the argument, apparently, is that administrative competence is not required, but anti-antisemitism is required.

Administrative competence is too much to hope for, as regulars at this board such as Ming will know only too well.

[Eric Corbett]

If there's an issue, isn't the correct method to sort it out now just email T&S?

Might be, on the off chance that you trust the WMF.

[Osborne]

Alternatively, you could not make up novel interpretations of perfectly clear statements

Don't confuse "cloudy" with "perfectly clear". As I said, you might be too used to it to be able to tell the difference, so maybe take the advice and reflect on yourself for a moment instead of projecting. It would be to your benefit.

If there's an issue, isn't the correct method to sort it out now just email T&S?

Might be, on the off chance that you trust the WMF.

T&S only cares if you report a blatant pedo / legal issue, or you have a good connection to them. Most other issues reported to them go to the trash bin.

[Anroth]

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928823762 - describing Israel as Palestine (Acre, part of Israel since 1948).

Well quite, but conveniently leaving out that Acre was annexed by Israel in 1948 when it was already planned to be part of the future Arab state. It was then ethnically cleansed of Arabs and re-populated over the following years with Jews from elsewhere.

It is however not usually considered part of the occupied palestinian territories. Mainly because by the time Israel got round to extending its ethnic cleansing and land grabs into the west bank etc, there were not enough Arabs left with a connection to Acre to protest about it.

[Poetlister]

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928823762 - describing Israel as Palestine (Acre, part of Israel since 1948).

Well quite, but conveniently leaving out that Acre was annexed by Israel in 1948 when it was already planned to be part of the future Arab state. It was then ethnically cleansed of Arabs and re-populated over the following years with Jews from elsewhere.

It is however not usually considered part of the occupied palestinian territories. Mainly because by the time Israel got round to extending its ethnic cleansing and land grabs into the west bank etc, there were not enough Arabs left with a connection to Acre to protest about it.

Israel was formed in the area allocated to it by the UN. Had the Arabs accepted the UN decision and not invaded Israel, it would still have those borders. But Acre has not been "ethnically cleansed" (unlike many Arab countries, which expelled nearly a million Jews in 1948); there are plenty of Arabs living there.

[Tarc]

The left as a whole is not anti-Semitic.

The American Left, though, is largely anti-Israel, and the line between that and antisemitism is at best blurry. I was suckered into this myself and spent much the early Wiki days battling against Jayjg, Zeq, others, dealing with that whole stupid Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/CAMERA lobbying (T-H-L) debacle, and so on.

[Anroth]

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =928823762 - describing Israel as Palestine (Acre, part of Israel since 1948).

Well quite, but conveniently leaving out that Acre was annexed by Israel in 1948 when it was already planned to be part of the future Arab state. It was then ethnically cleansed of Arabs and re-populated over the following years with Jews from elsewhere.

It is however not usually considered part of the occupied palestinian territories. Mainly because by the time Israel got round to extending its ethnic cleansing and land grabs into the west bank etc, there were not enough Arabs left with a connection to Acre to protest about it.

Israel was formed in the area allocated to it by the UN. Had the Arabs accepted the UN decision and not invaded Israel, it would still have those borders. But Acre has not been "ethnically cleansed" (unlike many Arab countries, which expelled nearly a million Jews in 1948); there are plenty of Arabs living there.

Israel displaced something like 3 quarters of the Arab population. There are still plenty of Jews in Germany, would you argue they were not ethnically cleansed there because some remain?

[Zoloft]

The very few Jewish Holocaust deniers - such as Gilad Atzmon - are embraced as "token Jews" by the antisemitic radical left (A UK thing these days) and the antisemitic radical right (A US thing these days).

No results found for "Gilad Atzmon" +token; six results found without quotes, none containing the word "token." (On the plus side though, this thread will soon be The One and Only!)

I hope you'll forgive me, but I've removed your underlining from the (still boldfaced) term, which may have suggested to some readers that there was a web page somewhere backing this up.

At some point, once BBCode is straightened out on this board, I'd like to make a custom tag that makes links and phrases it's used on have a "nofollow" setting.

[Earthy Astringent]

Hey, the venerable Anti-Israel = Anti-Semitism trope gets a second thread at WPO!

RfB

I see this shit on Reddit *constantly* vis a vis Ilhan Omar. “Criticizing the Israeli government is NOT antisemitism.” It sure the hell is when that criticism uses antisemitic tropes.

[Earthy Astringent]

There is an organisation called Jewish Voice for Labour (JVL), set up to "prove" that many Jews do not support the idea that there is substantial anti-Semitism in Labour.

I accept the idea that organisations can have aims, but not that they can have attitudes or opinions.

Generally people don’t join organizations if the orgs mission and vision statements don’t align with their own philosophies. “I had no idea the KKK supports white nationalism” isn’t a statement that anyone is going to buy.

Other groups, like Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (T-H-L) is prima facie on forcing Israel to the settlement table, but one only need look at the language of its founders and leadership to recognize they’re as antisemitic as they come.