Gary Null suing Wikipedia editors

[Giraffe Stapler]

I happened to notice that admin Dlohcierekim changed their username to Deepfriedokra (T-C-L) today. Judging from this discussion, it has something to do with a lawsuit from Gary Null (T-H-L). I like this part the best:

Thanks y'all. The attorney sent me a letter. I replied via his email and copied legal. The thing of it is, the take down and contacting third parties that repeated the offending content could and should be done by the Foundation. As I made no edits other than SP for a dispute and revdeling copyvio's, I don't think I engaged in defamation. My problem is the thought that the WMF violated my anonymity (when I did nothing wrong and nothing outside policy) and it looks like they did not notify me they were doing so. They are supposed to notify me. Thrown to the wolves is the feeling, and coming on the heels of the FRAM debacle, I am again reassessing my future here. I really need to talk to the Foundation.-- Dlohcierekim 01:11, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying the WMF gave the attorney your RL name and address? Are you sure? Vanamonde (Talk) 01:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I've no way of knowing. I don't know how else he could get it. This is what I find so troubling. They make no bones about giving out our information, though they do say they will notify us of doing so.-- Dlohcierekim 01:20, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know much about this, but Null was mentioned here in Gary Null Complains to the IRS about the WMF.

[mendaliv]

Oh my god that discussion. Why the hell did he respond to the guy? Why did he forward anything to the Foundation legal email? They aren’t his lawyers. The only thing they will ethically be able to do is suggest he get a lawyer. And the suggestion to talk to ArbCom...

And the idea that suing Dlohcierekim could expose the lawyer to sanctions... what? Come the hell on.

[Smiley]

i do wish that Gary would either file the lawsuit or stop talking about it, though, as he is coming off a bit boy-who-cried-wolf here. he really does intend to write (have other people write) hundreds more articles about Wikipedia, & it seems to me it would be to their advantage to just delete his article so he goes away.

-2,461‎ 76.116.197.159 18:13, 21 February 2019‎

All readers note: This page is being actively moderated so that the slanderous, libelous misinformation about Dr. Null from non-credible sources remains, despite anyone's attempt to update the page using more credible information, such as from https://www.webmd.com/gary-null.


+2,426‎ ‎ Roxy the dog (T-C-L) 18:17, 21 February 2019

Reverted to revision 884445946 by PohranicniStraze: Return to good


Deepfriedokra (T-C-L) 18:52, 21 February 2019‎

Protected "Gary Null": Persistent disruptive editing ([Edit=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (expires 18:52, 23 February 2019))

Null is a curiously hypnotic gentleman, I fear he will outlive us all:

Science, whether in academia or in the mainstream media, television or popular online outlets, is the rarefied domain of “experts,” we are told. To prove they are experts, the gatekeepers of the Academy present a pedigreed background, bristling with prestigious degrees, honors and awards, publication in the top journals of their field, and other trappings of success. Virtually any important topic involving medicine, healthcare, finance, even behavior is directed and codified by these preeminent spokespersons, marching in ideological lockstep.

These epistemological overseers view any part of medicine outside the generally-accepted paradigm as – in the frequently-cited words of Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales – the work of “lunatic charlatans.” Supporting Wales are a limited number of self-styled Skeptics who believe in an even more radical or ultra-orthodox form of “science-based medicine” than the rest of the medical establishment ... These Skeptics, free of intrusion from clinical reality, are the ultimate keepers of the scientific faith, guarding the gates against any heretics who question the prevailing wisdom.

[tarantino]

I happened to notice that admin Dlohcierekim changed their username to Deepfriedokra (T-C-L) today. Judging from this discussion, it has something to do with a lawsuit from Gary Null (T-H-L). I like this part the best:

Thanks y'all. The attorney sent me a letter. I replied via his email and copied legal. The thing of it is, the take down and contacting third parties that repeated the offending content could and should be done by the Foundation. As I made no edits other than SP for a dispute and revdeling copyvio's, I don't think I engaged in defamation. My problem is the thought that the WMF violated my anonymity (when I did nothing wrong and nothing outside policy) and it looks like they did not notify me they were doing so. They are supposed to notify me. Thrown to the wolves is the feeling, and coming on the heels of the FRAM debacle, I am again reassessing my future here. I really need to talk to the Foundation.-- Dlohcierekim 01:11, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying the WMF gave the attorney your RL name and address? Are you sure? Vanamonde (Talk) 01:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I've no way of knowing. I don't know how else he could get it. This is what I find so troubling. They make no bones about giving out our information, though they do say they will notify us of doing so.-- Dlohcierekim 01:20, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know much about this, but Null was mentioned here in Gary Null Complains to the IRS about the WMF.

Lol, what a maroon. His real name is his user name backwards.

[Kumioko]

Well this goes to show you that the WMF isn't going to help editors. They might give a little free advice, but when they lawsuits start rolling in the editor is on their own.

[Smiley]

Lol, what a maroon. His real name is his use name backwards.

Ah, but he's cunningly changed it!

Deep fried okra, that'll throw vegetable-hugging Null off the scent for sure.



Obligatory:

[mendaliv]

At least two admins are in receipt of legal threats on behalf of Gary Null (T-H-L). Mr. Null is unhappy that we have an article - or at least one that views him from a reality-based standpoint. Please watchlist the article and talk page. If you are also contacted, please email me and I will put you in touch with the other affected admin. WMF Legal are aware.

Ah yes let's give this guy something to claim is evidence of a civil conspiracy so he can get past the Twombly and Iqbal pleading standards.

[Poetlister]

We've always said that the WMF would do nothing to help admins in legal trouble. This seems to prove it. But why did he give them his name and address?

[Midsize Jake]

We've always said that the WMF would do nothing to help admins in legal trouble. This seems to prove it. But why did he give them his name and address?

To be fair (to people who don't deserve it), it's quite possible the WMF didn't give them his name and address at all. There really aren't a lot of people named "Mike Reichold" out there - the one that comes up first on Google is a plumber in Florida who almost certainly isn't the same guy, but I doubt he would have been all that hard to find regardless.

[mendaliv]

We've always said that the WMF would do nothing to help admins in legal trouble. This seems to prove it. But why did he give them his name and address?

He might not have. There are any number of skip tracing (T-H-L) techniques someone could use—some of which are unethical or even illegal, but probably still in use by some. For example, the trick of using tattletale software to extract information about the recipient of an e-mail (e.g., by using code to fetch an external file in the e-mail, which would also give you the IP address in the sever log) was declared unethical by my state bar association in a 2018 advisory opinion. I don't know if such a thing would be permissible for skip tracers that work with lawyers, and the same ethics opinion suggests that a tracker that merely provides "read-receipt" functionality would not be unethical.

There are also ways of getting that info through legal process, like a subpoena (to WMF to get the IP, then to the ISP to get the subscriber), but I believe that generally requires a suit to have actually been filed. DMCA takedown notices can theoretically be used to extract contact information as well, if the other party submits a counter-notice (which is uncommon because most people don't seem to know about them).

[10920]

We've always said that the WMF would do nothing to help admins in legal trouble. This seems to prove it. But why did he give them his name and address?

To be fair (to people who don't deserve it), it's quite possible the WMF didn't give them his name and address at all. There really aren't a lot of people named "Mike Reichold" out there - the one that comes up first on Google is a plumber in Florida who almost certainly isn't the same guy, but I doubt he would have been all that hard to find regardless.

He later admitted that the WMF wasn't at fault. As I would've said anyway, the WMF almost certainly doesn't know his name in the first place, and even if they did, it would be rather unlikely for them to provide it to some guy threatening to sue.

His name is in his username so someone looked him up.

There are some good sites for digging up information on people if you have their name (a location would help if it's a common name). IRB is one I use in my line of work.

[tarantino]

We've always said that the WMF would do nothing to help admins in legal trouble. This seems to prove it. But why did he give them his name and address?

To be fair (to people who don't deserve it), it's quite possible the WMF didn't give them his name and address at all. There really aren't a lot of people named "Mike Reichold" out there - the one that comes up first on Google is a plumber in Florida who almost certainly isn't the same guy, but I doubt he would have been all that hard to find regardless.

The plumber is probably his son. Deepfriedokra has another account he uses almost exclusively on commons that is his full name. He's slipped up a few times on enwiki, so he blocked himself to prevent that from happening again.

[mendaliv]

We've always said that the WMF would do nothing to help admins in legal trouble. This seems to prove it. But why did he give them his name and address?

To be fair (to people who don't deserve it), it's quite possible the WMF didn't give them his name and address at all. There really aren't a lot of people named "Mike Reichold" out there - the one that comes up first on Google is a plumber in Florida who almost certainly isn't the same guy, but I doubt he would have been all that hard to find regardless.

The plumber is probably his son. Deepfriedokra has another account he uses almost exclusively on commons that is his full name. He's slipped up a few times on enwiki, so he blocked himself to prevent that from happening again.

I honestly considered doing something like that at one point since I had good cameras and thought it'd be fun to get credits in my name for posting stuff on Commons that got used by media.

And of course, the practice of putting a custom licensing template on all your uploads that puts a big bold link to your e-mail address in case someone wants "different terms" (i.e., they don't want to release their whole work under CC-BY-SA) for a photo you've uploaded might be a nice way to get some supplemental income.

[Poetlister]

People who use Commons photos are very sloppy about copyright. They just credit "Wikimedia Commons", or even "Wikipedia" if thry find the photo there rather than Commons. The chances of someone contacting you and paying you if they want to use the photo other than as CC-BY-SA are very slim.

[Smiley]

Can one sue a nine-year-old or person of that mental age?

[mendaliv]

Can one sue a nine-year-old or person of that mental age?

I’m afraid so. Whether such a person would be legally liable in the same way as an adult, probably not.

[MrErnie]

The article is now on my watchlist and I will resist any efforts to whitewash it. He can sue me easily since I disclose my real world identity. If he shuts down my business, I will just retire since I am 67 years old.

Yet I wonder how much he's got in the bank to waste on legal fees to defend himself? If you receive a frivolous-ish lawsuit do you have some obligation to respond? And if the response is amateurish and not created by a legal professional does that somehow affect how it is received?

[mendaliv]

The article is now on my watchlist and I will resist any efforts to whitewash it. He can sue me easily since I disclose my real world identity. If he shuts down my business, I will just retire since I am 67 years old.

Yet I wonder how much he's got in the bank to waste on legal fees to defend himself? If you receive a frivolous-ish lawsuit do you have some obligation to respond?

I'd say more that it's a "good idea" to respond in some way, but there may be specialized and unlikely situations where a response could be harmful (i.e., more harmful than a botched response that, for instance, directly admits to the matters alleged in the complaint). Not responding at all can result in a default judgment, and while there are ways to have that default vacated, it's not guaranteed and consequently is not a procedural posture you want your case to be in.

Frequently a court isn't going to figure out that something you think is frivolous is in fact frivolous without some kind of response. In almost every case, it's your job to make that argument.

And if the response is amateurish and not created by a legal professional does that somehow affect how it is received?

Eh. There are a couple schools of thought on this. Yes, something thrown together my a rank amateur is going to reek of it. And, of course, there's that old chestnut, "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client." It applies double to most self-represented non-lawyers. On the other hand, nonlawyers are cut a bit more slack on certain things—not everything, but if it's within a court's discretion to do something unusual a nonlawyer is probably just as likely as a lawyer to get it. Some serial litigants have taken great advantage of courts' leeway.

[C&B]

^^^Advert for "Don't represent yourself, get a lawyer".

America Needs More Lawyers .org

[mendaliv]

^^^Advert for "Don't represent yourself, get a lawyer".

America Needs More Lawyers .org

Yes get a lawyer.

No we don't need more lawyers. Please do not compete with me.

[Poetlister]

Can one sue a nine-year-old or person of that mental age?

I’m afraid so. Whether such a person would be legally liable in the same way as an adult, probably not.

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

[rhindle]

I think this is all you need to say in your response...

[Giraffe Stapler]

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

Hello old white man. Welcome to our century. We trust that you had a pleasant cryogenic slumber. In the past few decades it has become generally accepted that using the word "retarded" is offensive. And people with developmental delays are not considered "insane".

[C&B]

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

Hello old white man.

[Midsize Jake]

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

Hello old white man.

Hopefully Mr. PL was just being sarcastic there. He isn't usually sarcastic, so it would be an easy mistake to make (particularly since he seems to have some sort of compulsion to add at least one two-line post to every thread on the site).

[Poetlister]

Hopefully Mr. PL was just being sarcastic there. He isn't usually sarcastic, so it would be an easy mistake to make (particularly since he seems to have some sort of compulsion to add at least one two-line post to every thread on the site).

I must use the sign more often, since lots of people on this site don't understand English irony. And I'm not commenting on every thread all the time by any means.

Of course, if you don't like short comments, I can easily do what one or two people on here do and write huge swathes of text that don't say much.

[Jeff Hawke]

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

Hello old white man. Welcome to our century. We trust that you had a pleasant cryogenic slumber. In the past few decades it has become generally accepted that using the word "retarded" is offensive. And people with developmental delays are not considered "insane".

Nonetheless, for legal purposes, while a developmental disorder may constitute a legal defence, a prosecution will usually proceed and a special verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity is available. “Insanity” has a legal definition, to be assessed by a court applying the M’Naghten criteria:

at the time of committing the act, the suspect was labouring under such a “defect of reason”, from a “disease of the mind”, as

(i) not to know the nature and quality of the act being done (a delusion, for instance where a suspect believes they are cutting a slice of bread when in fact they are cutting a throat), or,
(ii) that the suspect did not know what was being done was wrong (“wrong” meaning contrary to the law – Johnson [2007] EWCA Crim 1978): M’Naghten’s Case (1843) 10 Cl & F 200).

Whether or not you approve, that is the phrase currently in use in English law.

[Poetlister]

I am grateful to Jeff Hawke for his support. He is of course correct. Whether that will convince everyone, or indeed every piece of novelty office equipment, is a good question. The reply might be

if the law supposes that, the law is a hass ... the law is a hidiot. If that's the eye of th elaw, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish th elaw is, that his eye may be opened by experience - by experience.

[Osborne]

I happened to notice that admin Dlohcierekim changed their username to Deepfriedokra (T-C-L) today.

Lol, what a maroon. His real name is his user name backwards.

I was wondering how that idiot came up with such an idiotic name. Dlohidiocracy.

[mendaliv]

The article is now on my watchlist and I will resist any efforts to whitewash it. He can sue me easily since I disclose my real world identity. If he shuts down my business, I will just retire since I am 67 years old.

Yet I wonder how much he's got in the bank to waste on legal fees to defend himself? If you receive a frivolous-ish lawsuit do you have some obligation to respond? And if the response is amateurish and not created by a legal professional does that somehow affect how it is received?

I’d also just like to note that it’s amazingly shitty and irresponsible of a person who runs a business or has a family to take that cavalier attitude towards legal threats. They aren’t the only person who depends on their income. And it won’t just be their business funds threatened by litigation.

[Poetlister]

The article is now on my watchlist and I will resist any efforts to whitewash it. He can sue me easily since I disclose my real world identity. If he shuts down my business, I will just retire since I am 67 years old.

Yet I wonder how much he's got in the bank to waste on legal fees to defend himself? If you receive a frivolous-ish lawsuit do you have some obligation to respond? And if the response is amateurish and not created by a legal professional does that somehow affect how it is received?

I’d also just like to note that it’s amazingly shitty and irresponsible of a person who runs a business or has a family to take that cavalier attitude towards legal threats. They aren’t the only person who depends on their income. And it won’t just be their business funds threatened by litigation.

I think that many people don't realise what huge legal costs they might have to pay if they're not careful, especially in the US. Even in Britain, when I tell people that solicitors can charge hundreds of pounds an hour and bill for many hours of work on an apparently minor matter, they are usually incredulous. But of course that's why top solicitors in London get over a million pounds a year and even newly qualified ones in some firms are getting about £100,000 a year.

[mendaliv]

The article is now on my watchlist and I will resist any efforts to whitewash it. He can sue me easily since I disclose my real world identity. If he shuts down my business, I will just retire since I am 67 years old.

Yet I wonder how much he's got in the bank to waste on legal fees to defend himself? If you receive a frivolous-ish lawsuit do you have some obligation to respond? And if the response is amateurish and not created by a legal professional does that somehow affect how it is received?

I’d also just like to note that it’s amazingly shitty and irresponsible of a person who runs a business or has a family to take that cavalier attitude towards legal threats. They aren’t the only person who depends on their income. And it won’t just be their business funds threatened by litigation.

I think that many people don't realise what huge legal costs they might have to pay if they're not careful, especially in the US. Even in Britain, when I tell people that solicitors can charge hundreds of pounds an hour and bill for many hours of work on an apparently minor matter, they are usually incredulous. But of course that's why top solicitors in London get over a million pounds a year and even newly qualified ones in some firms are getting about £100,000 a year.

Yeah that sounds like big market legal fees in the US to me. The thing that pisses me off about Cullen's comment is how often I hear it from other "head-of-family" types who clearly are making this decision without consulting or considering those who depend on their income. "Let them come get me," is a common thing I hear.

[Randy from Boise]

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

Hello old white man.

Hopefully Mr. PL was just being sarcastic there. He isn't usually sarcastic, so it would be an easy mistake to make (particularly since he seems to have some sort of compulsion to add at least one two-line post to every thread on the site).

I, on the other hand, have a compulsion to add two one-liners...

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

If it's a totally retarded adult, the verdict could be something like "not guilty due to insanity" and the judge may then direct that he be kept in a secure mental hospital.

Hello old white man. Welcome to our century. We trust that you had a pleasant cryogenic slumber. In the past few decades it has become generally accepted that using the word "retarded" is offensive. And people with developmental delays are not considered "insane".

In which country is there a "Not Guilty By Reason of Developmental Delay" verdict, young black man?

RfB

[eagle]

^^^Advert for "Don't represent yourself, get a lawyer".

America Needs More Lawyers .org

Yes get a lawyer.

No we don't need more lawyers. Please do not compete with me.

Prediction: Now that LH has exhausted her career as a Wikipedian and citizen journalist, she will go to law school and then do a internship at the WMF in San Francisco.

[Vigilant]

^^^Advert for "Don't represent yourself, get a lawyer".

America Needs More Lawyers .org

Yes get a lawyer.

No we don't need more lawyers. Please do not compete with me.

Prediction: Now that LH has exhausted her career as a Wikipedian and citizen journalist, she will go to law school and then do a internship at the WMF in San Francisco.

No, even the WMF wouldn't put up with Laura Hale.
She really is that incompetent.

[mendaliv]

^^^Advert for "Don't represent yourself, get a lawyer".

America Needs More Lawyers .org

Yes get a lawyer.

No we don't need more lawyers. Please do not compete with me.

Prediction: Now that LH has exhausted her career as a Wikipedian and citizen journalist, she will go to law school and then do a internship at the WMF in San Francisco.

No, even the WMF wouldn't put up with Laura Hale.
She really is that incompetent.

I wish I could say the same about American law schools. No matter how bad your grades and LSAT scores are, there's a law school for you. Western Michigan University Cooley Law School (T-H-L) is the most notorious third-tier, and they would take her. Even if not, there's always Northern Illinois University College of Law (T-H-L) (which is a fourth-tier school).

[The Garbage Scow]

The WMF and/or the volunteers at En-Wiki are perfectly fine with giving your IP address out upon request to employees of the US government. I'm not getting into the details, but I know this first hand; it's not tinfoil hattery. Who knows who else the cretins give it to? This is why I recommend everyone edit only though a good VPN and absolutely never use any personally identifying information anywhere on their servers (an email address that can be connected to you, certainly never a real name or address).

[Vigilant]

The WMF and/or the volunteers at En-Wiki are perfectly fine with giving your IP address out upon request to employees of the US government. I'm not getting into the details, but I know this first hand; it's not tinfoil hattery. Who knows who else the cretins give it to? This is why I recommend everyone edit only though a good VPN and absolutely never use any personally identifying information anywhere on their servers (an email address that can be connected to you, certainly never a real name or address).

Good advice.
I'd also do everything inside a Virtual Machine.

[Anroth]

A virtual machine inside a virtual machine (dont laugh, seen someone do this, I could never bring myself to explain to them the pointlessness of it).

[mendaliv]

A virtual machine inside a virtual machine (dont laugh, seen someone do this, I could never bring myself to explain to them the pointlessness of it).

[rhindle]

^^^Advert for "Don't represent yourself, get a lawyer".

America Needs More Lawyers .org

Yes get a lawyer.

No we don't need more lawyers. Please do not compete with me.

Prediction: Now that LH has exhausted her career as a Wikipedian and citizen journalist, she will go to law school and then do a internship at the WMF in San Francisco.

No, even the WMF wouldn't put up with Laura Hale.
She really is that incompetent.

I wish I could say the same about American law schools. No matter how bad your grades and LSAT scores are, there's a law school for you. Western Michigan University Cooley Law School (T-H-L) is the most notorious third-tier, and they would take her. Even if not, there's always Northern Illinois University College of Law (T-H-L) (which is a fourth-tier school).

In some states, like California, you do not need to even go to law school, you can just apprentice for an attorney instead. That may be better than a low-rate law school anyway. There are also law schools where all you need is a 2-year community college degree to enroll.

[Poetlister]

A virtual machine inside a virtual machine (dont laugh, seen someone do this, I could never bring myself to explain to them the pointlessness of it).

If you're behind a whole chain of proxies, you'll be pretty lucky if none of them is blocked!

[Osborne]

A virtual machine inside a virtual machine (dont laugh, seen someone do this, I could never bring myself to explain to them the pointlessness of it).

"Good luck I'm behind 7 proxies"

If you're behind a whole chain of proxies, you'll be pretty lucky if none of them is blocked!

Only the last one's IP would matter, the rest just adds latency and untraceable-hacker-movie-coolness feel. Oh my... im answering an answer to an off-topic joke... i must be tired.

[Anroth]

A virtual machine inside a virtual machine (dont laugh, seen someone do this, I could never bring myself to explain to them the pointlessness of it).

"Good luck I'm behind 7 proxies"

If you're behind a whole chain of proxies, you'll be pretty lucky if none of them is blocked!

Only the last one's IP would matter, the rest just adds latency and untraceable-hacker-movie-coolness feel. Oh my... im answering an answer to an off-topic joke... i must be tired.

Most people here are pretty high on the technomancy scale when it comes to things like proxies, virtual machines etc. You can safely assume you dont need to explain anything like that.