Admin Rama case in Arbcom

chad100 · Unread post by **chad100** » Tue May 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Moderator's Note: The Arbcom case referred to in this thread involves the status of the still-deleted biographical article on Clarice Phelps (T-H-L). Wikipediocracy's coverage of the deletion dispute surrounding this article can be found in this earlier thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... /Case/Rama

It is 50/50 here.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue May 14, 2019 12:53 pm

No desysop is going to occur here for sure. I dont even see why that would happen. Rama might get admonished, but even that's doubtful.

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 pm

Was looking at this yesterday. I'm not sure. Rama certainly screwed up, and they seem to be arguing that they didn't because IAR excuses anything. While I'm open to that argument IAR doesn't trump consensus and he clearly used his admin tools to force his desired result. As someone who almost never actually uses the admin tools, he is in serious danger of losing them if he can't own his mistake.

In other words, yet another out-of-touch admin goes all cowboy and can't admit they fucked up.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue May 14, 2019 6:56 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:Was looking at this yesterday. I'm not sure. Rama certainly screwed up, and they seem to be arguing that they didn't because IAR excuses anything. While I'm open to that argument IAR doesn't trump consensus and he clearly used his admin tools to force his desired result. As someone who almost never actually uses the admin tools, he is in serious danger of losing them if he can't own his mistake.

In other words, yet another out-of-touch admin goes all cowboy and can't admit they fucked up.

Far be it from me to say don't desysop an admin. By all means, go for it. I just don't really see this guy doing anything intentionally harmful. He created an article that has been deleted. Not the end of the world, and hardly what even I would consider a rogue admin.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Tue May 14, 2019 7:49 pm

I feel like I'm stating the obvious again here, but if the WMF were a real, properly-run organization, then an action by a low-level manager (i.e., volunteer admin) in support of high-level management's highly-focused PR campaign (to encourage more articles about women) would mean that the screw-up has actually been made by the Arbcom for even accepting the case.

Meanwhile, there's this statement by User:TonyBallioni (T-C-L):

As I have pointed out all tonight: no one here is looking at the impacts this dispute has the potential to have on a real human being who is in the early stages of her career and who it is likely is now most known for the Wikipedia controversy rather than anything else. An ArbCom case over this will only further that problem. A real human being has unfortunately become a political point on Wikipedia, and that is to our shame.

Given that this comes from one of the Wikipedians who was instrumental in causing this particular PR disaster, frankly this is complete bullshit. Wikipedians only ever trot out this argument (which, let's be clear, is actually our standard argument for BLPs that are clearly hit-pieces) when they want to excuse Wikipedia's inherent sexism. It's true that Phelps almost certainly would prefer to be known more for her work as a member of the nuclear materials processing group at Oak Ridge National Lab, but the notion that Wikipedia is somehow protecting her by deleting the article and going to unusual lengths to keep it deleted is the worst kind of hypocritical BS imaginable.

They know what the press coverage of this is; they can read, and they know that nobody agrees with them, except maybe a small number of extremist hate-group members who care enough to follow this sort of thing. Everybody else hears the WMF go on and on about how they're "trying to deal with their gender gap," they don't make any distinction between the WMF and the actual users, and then they see this and rightfully conclude that the whole organization is a bunch of liars.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 pm

Taken out of context, that quote is 100% correct. Had the article just been left alone, or deleted with minimal fuss, the young lady would have been fine. The people who were responsible for its deletion were wrong, and maybe those who opposed them just made things worse.

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Wed May 15, 2019 9:44 pm

I've just noticed CyrilleDunant (T-C-L), who seems to have come out of an extended retirement solely to participate in this case. The last time they made this many edits in a month was just over a decade ago, and prior to this month they had no project space edits in 12 years, and only about a dozen before that, mostly in mundane areas such as AFD.

And now, while not a named party, they are one of the most vocal participants in this case.

Seems legit.

The Garbage Scow · Unread post by **The Garbage Scow** » Fri May 17, 2019 2:40 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:I've just noticed CyrilleDunant (T-C-L), who seems to have come out of an extended retirement solely to participate in this case. The last time they made this many edits in a month was just over a decade ago, and prior to this month they had no project space edits in 12 years, and only about a dozen before that, mostly in mundane areas such as AFD.

And now, while not a named party, they are one of the most vocal participants in this case.

Seems legit.

Claims to know Rama IRL.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:45 pm

The Garbage Scow wrote:
Beeblebrox wrote:I've just noticed CyrilleDunant (T-C-L), who seems to have come out of an extended retirement solely to participate in this case. The last time they made this many edits in a month was just over a decade ago, and prior to this month they had no project space edits in 12 years, and only about a dozen before that, mostly in mundane areas such as AFD.

And now, while not a named party, they are one of the most vocal participants in this case.

Seems legit.
Claims to know Rama IRL.

Ah, probably a flatmate. They might even have the same IP.

The Garbage Scow · Unread post by **The Garbage Scow** » Sat May 18, 2019 8:01 pm

Poetlister wrote:
The Garbage Scow wrote:
Beeblebrox wrote:I've just noticed CyrilleDunant (T-C-L), who seems to have come out of an extended retirement solely to participate in this case. The last time they made this many edits in a month was just over a decade ago, and prior to this month they had no project space edits in 12 years, and only about a dozen before that, mostly in mundane areas such as AFD.

And now, while not a named party, they are one of the most vocal participants in this case.

Seems legit.
Claims to know Rama IRL.
Ah, probably a flatmate. They might even have the same IP.

Or the ever popular kid brother.

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Thu May 30, 2019 11:38 pm

Looks like one of the drafting arbs, Joe Roe, took a break in the middle of the case and now the PD is late.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Fri May 31, 2019 4:45 am

That might be the reason. Or it might be that the other drafting arb is a fucking tool. Bearing in mind what happened the last time he was responsible for drafting something...and that was only a couple of sentences

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Fri May 31, 2019 10:47 am

C&B wrote:That might be the reason. Or it might be that the other drafting arb is a fucking tool. Bearing in mind what happened the last time he was responsible for drafting something...and that was only a couple of sentences

Fortunately, nearly all of the Arbs are of an incredibly high standard, so everything will be sorted speedily.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Fri May 31, 2019 10:54 am

ZettaComposer · Unread post by **ZettaComposer** » Fri May 31, 2019 4:34 pm

Poetlister wrote:
C&B wrote:That might be the reason. Or it might be that the other drafting arb is a fucking tool. Bearing in mind what happened the last time he was responsible for drafting something...and that was only a couple of sentences
Fortunately, nearly all of the Arbs are of an incredibly high standard, so everything will be sorted speedily.

Unfortunately the one arb who was good at responding in a timely manner just left so this will probably be the norm for awhile.

Bezdomni · Unread post by **Bezdomni** » Fri May 31, 2019 4:54 pm

Zetta Composer wrote:Unfortunately the one arb who was good at responding in a timely manner just left so this will probably be the norm for awhile.

I will say that I find it a curious coincidence that both Euryalus & BU Rob13 (what is he 13 or 23?) took the time to write me email during my "eXile", and that both have since wizenly thrown their toolz from their prams. I would say that in the end they both sort of helped me during that period, except that I'm not sure you can talk about the end when you're in the middle.

ZettaComposer · Unread post by **ZettaComposer** » Fri May 31, 2019 6:47 pm

Bezdomni wrote: BU Rob13 (what is he 13 or 23?)

I always assumed it was shorthand for Boston University Class of '13. Sadly it looks like Andrew Davidson never asked that question during Rob's RFA, opting instead to ask a more normal question that wouldn't send pitchforks and torches raining down on him.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Fri May 31, 2019 6:54 pm

ZettaComposer wrote:
Bezdomni wrote: BU Rob13 (what is he 13 or 23?)
I always assumed it was shorthand for Boston University Class of '13. Sadly it looks like Andrew Davidson never asked that question during Rob's RFA, opting instead to ask a more normal question that wouldn't send pitchforks and torches raining down on him.

...and a tragic loss for the Darwin Awards (T-H-L) it was too

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:58 pm

Proposed decision now live and being voted on.

So far only 5 arbs voting, they all agree on basically everything except Sil Tork has chosen to disagree about exactly why they are desysopping him. He's claiming IAR absolves Rama of misusing his admin tools. On the talk page I'm suggesting that IAR applies to rules, not consensus. I have no idea if that will be persuasive but with so few active arbs 5 is an ironclad majority and the non-IAR proposal to desysop has 4 supports.

chad100 · Unread post by **chad100** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:04 pm

Kumioko wrote:No desysop is going to occur here for sure. I dont even see why that would happen. Rama might get admonished, but even that's doubtful.

Now think it is 4-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... sopped_(I)

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:07 pm

Someone (Obapina?) suggested that Rama could be excused their ~aspersions due to the heightened emotional stress an arbcase brings; normally I'd sympathise, but frankly it's not so much their specific remarks - which may be excused on those grounds - but their entire bloody demeanour throughout: arrogance and WP:BATTLEFIELD all the way. Poor qualities in an admin. Desysop on that account.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:57 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:On the talk page I'm suggesting that IAR applies to rules, not consensus.

Yes, the clue is in the name "Wikipedia:Ignore all rules"! The entire text of IAR reads "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." I suppose though that it could be argued that accepting consensus is itself a rule.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:22 am

Well, WP:CON (T-H-L) is policy.

In other news, Opabinia regalis (T-C-L) is looking slightly...desperate, perhaps.

From OR's user page: I am also interested in STEM education and in issues surrounding diversity in science.

lonza leggiera · Unread post by **lonza leggiera** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:36 pm

Poetlister [with bolding of first phrase added] wrote: ... "Wikipedia:Ignore all rules"! The entire text of IAR reads "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." ...

Of all the times I've seen the "ignore all rules" mantra cited to justify some controversial edit, in no case was any explanation ever given of exactly how the rule being ignored had prevented the culprit from "improving or maintaining Wikipedia". I suppose one could argue that IAR is one of the rules that IAR itself allows you to ignore. But wouldn't you then have to not ignore all rules? And, if you only ignore the qualification, the you're not really ignoring a rule, are you? You're only ignoring part of a rule. Does IAR really allow that? Millions My mate and I are dying to know.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:52 pm

lonza leggiera wrote:
Poetlister [with bolding of first phrase added] wrote: ... "Wikipedia:Ignore all rules"! The entire text of IAR reads "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." ...
Of all the times I've seen the "ignore all rules" mantra cited to justify some controversial edit, in no case was any explanation ever given of exactly how the rule being ignored had prevented the culprit from "improving or maintaining Wikipedia". I suppose one could argue that IAR is one of the rules that IAR itself allows you to ignore. But wouldn't you then have to not ignore all rules? And, if you only ignore the qualification, the you're not really ignoring a rule, are you? You're only ignoring part of a rule. Does IAR really allow that? Millions My mate and I are dying to know.

IAR can't prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, so it can't be invoked to cancel itself. Unfortunately, there's nothing there to say that you have to explain why IAR applies. Anyone care to suggest an amendment?

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:59 pm

Let's be honest here folks. The only time IAR is really used is when an admin or functionary wants to make a point. If it ever was a valid thing, it hasn't been in a very long time. Now it has been demoted to being a tool used to manipulate POV and ensure the admins pet project is properly protected.

ZettaComposer · Unread post by **ZettaComposer** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:46 am

The first motion to desysopp has now gotten to five support votes. The second one needs a few more because AGK decided to oppose instead of abstain like Silktork did with the first one. There are a lot of oddities in the wording of this PD overall, but I guess that’s to be expected when half the active members pop in at the last second to finish a week long overdue draft.

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:12 am

With so many on the second one indicating it's their second choice, the first one will pass and that'll be the end of it. This was yet another case where a little humility could've saved the admin in question from this result, but they were far too cocksure of their clearly wrong decision to show any.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:46 pm

^^^That. Joe has made his way back from the Lost Ark and has put a final nail in.

To the case, not the Ark, people.

@Rama: observe an object lesson in consensus-forming...

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:14 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =900308235

Now that his fate is sealed he's suddenly super sorry about it and understands what he did wrong.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:47 am

Beeblebrox wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =900308235

Now that his fate is sealed he's suddenly super sorry about it and understands what he did wrong.

wiki-contrition

It's a condition that passes as soon as nobody's looking.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:54 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Beeblebrox wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =900308235

Now that his fate is sealed he's suddenly super sorry about it and understands what he did wrong.
wiki-contrition

It's a condition that passes as soon as nobody's looking.

Maybe he at least now understands, even if he isn't really sorry.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:14 pm

Either way, he's getting a bin bag on his desk in the morning

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:56 pm

Kind of regret that smiley grin now, but yeah, that, as they say, is that.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:19 pm

C&B wrote:Kind of regret that smiley grin now, but yeah, that, as they say, is that.

"He may regain the administrative tools at any time via a successful WP:RFA." Has anyone ever tried doing that after being desysopped?

WBG · Unread post by **WBG** » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:05 pm

Poetlister wrote:Has anyone ever tried doing that after being desysopped?

Hawkeye made it to a crat chat. MONGO finished around the 50% mark.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:26 pm

WBG wrote:
Poetlister wrote:Has anyone ever tried doing that after being desysopped?
Hawkeye made it to a crat chat. MONGO finished around the 50% mark.

MONGO should never have had it in the first place; it's surprising he got over 50% second time around.

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:13 pm

I'd bet money that Hawkeye is going to try it again within the next 2 years.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:22 am

Beeblebrox wrote:I'd bet money that Hawkeye is going to try it again within the next 2 years.

You're probably right. It sucks to be an experienced editor and then have to go and take a knee and kiss the ring of some other admin if they can do something they are capable of doing. Then waiting a couple weeks until they aren't busy, or being declined because they aren't comfortable doing it, or, etc. Doubly so when they already were an admin.

One thing I have learned (and pretty much already knew) from being an admin on some Wikia/Fandom wiki's is that it is a lot easier to get shit done if you are an admin. I grant you it's different that EnWP with all their policies, essays, guidelines, procedures, SOP's, protocol and complaint venues, but, there is a degree of satisfaction when you block an actual vandal and don't have to simply watch and revert them while you wait for someone else that does ten edits a month but is "trusted".

If the ENWP community wasn't so untrusting of everyone, they would have a ton more editors, a much happier community and a much better project.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:07 am

Hawkeye7 was talking to Ritchie333 about it in April; apparently it depends on the Olympics...

Pudeo · Unread post by **Pudeo** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:08 am

15 desysoppings since May 1.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:55 pm

Pudeo wrote:15 desysoppings since May 1.

That will have to stop when they run out of admins.

Beeblebrox · Unread post by **Beeblebrox** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:38 pm

The past year seems to have seen a higher than usual amount of experienced admins doing incredibly stupid things and refusing to back down when called on it. And it also seems that many of the old-school almost totally inactive admins are finally taking the hint and not making token edits just to keep the bits.

These are both good things as far as I am concerned, Getting rid of out of touch cowboy admins is a net benefit, even with all the arbcom cases. I doubt anyone will miss many of the ones removed by arbcom as most of them hardly did admin work anyway.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:56 pm

The final end of the "admin is no big deal" era?

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:24 am

Beeblebrox wrote:The past year seems to have seen a higher than usual amount of experienced admins doing incredibly stupid things and refusing to back down when called on it. And it also seems that many of the old-school almost totally inactive admins are finally taking the hint and not making token edits just to keep the bits.

I'm going to have to go ahead and ... disagree with you there.
There have always been admins doing incredibly stupid things.
What's changed is that, for some reason, there are now consequences being meted out.

Beeblebrox wrote:These are both good things as far as I am concerned, Getting rid of out of touch cowboy admins is a net benefit, even with all the arbcom cases. I doubt anyone will miss many of the ones removed by arbcom as most of them hardly did admin work anyway.

Maybe, finally, governance on en.wp is growing up?

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:44 am

Either admins are getting more outrageous or this Arbcom is significantly better than previous ones in meting out desysops. Since it is assumed by many here that this Arbcom is not better than its predecessors, must we assume that admins are getting sillier?

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:10 am

Poetlister wrote:Either admins are getting more outrageous or this Arbcom is significantly better than previous ones in meting out desysops. Since it is assumed by many here that this Arbcom is not better than its predecessors, must we assume that admins are getting sillier?

I don't think the admins have been doing anything different this year as Beeblebrox seems to think, there have always been problems with admins as we all know. I do have to concede that this arbcom seems to be more active in dealing with problematic admins. I attribute that to the new blood that was elected and the inactivity of long time enablers of admin abuse like Courcelles.

I do also think that it's at least partially due to those of us who continue to be critical of abusive admins and keeping that problem at the forefront of conversations.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:08 pm

Kumioko wrote:I do have to concede that this arbcom seems to be more active in dealing with problematic admins. I attribute that to the new blood that was elected and the inactivity of long time enablers of admin abuse like Courcelles.

We'll have to see how long it lasts. Maybe other admins will notice and try not to behave so badly - we can hope.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:18 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Kumioko wrote:I do have to concede that this arbcom seems to be more active in dealing with problematic admins. I attribute that to the new blood that was elected and the inactivity of long time enablers of admin abuse like Courcelles.
We'll have to see how long it lasts. Maybe other admins will notice and try not to behave so badly - we can hope.

Maybe but there are still a lot of problematic admins to deal with. These recent desysops don't really affect the truly problematic ones and are all attributed to violations that directly affected other admins. None that I have seen were for violations that only affected regular editors, so even with this recent rash of desysops, the Arbs are still clearly showing they only care about themselves. These were just some of the low impact easy to deal with low hanging fruit.

There's still a lot more like Floquenbeam and his penchant for telling others to F off and driving editors out with his poor attitude; Bbb23 and his using the CU tool to fish for socks without due cause against policy forcing countless editors and networks to be blocked and unable to edit; useless hat collectors and PITA's like AGK, HighinBC, Drmies and others.

I grant you it's a start and we shouldn't hope for to much, but we'll see. The thing with Wikipedia is that the more you do, the more chances you are of getting in trouble for something. So, since many of the ones I just mentioned do almost nothing to actually improve Wikipedia aside from attacking normal users, they probably have little chance of getting desysopped.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:16 pm

For all we know, someone is keeping notes on some of these people and building a case. Watch out for surprises in the next few months.