Kazakhstan

Wikipedia in the news - rip and read.
User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31490
kołdry
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:18 am

Yeah,

But that's a nice TShirt.
I'd look forward to buying that on EBay.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Jim » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:23 am

Vigilant wrote:Yeah,

But that's a nice TShirt.
I'd look forward to buying that on EBay.
Insinuation. 10 yard penalty. Repeat first down.

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31490
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:14 am

Jim wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Yeah,

But that's a nice TShirt.
I'd look forward to buying that on EBay.
Insinuation. 10 yard penalty. Repeat first down.
I think you mean half the distance to the goal line.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:05 pm

Hard to believe (did I miss it?) that Wikipediocracy has not mentioned this outstanding, incredible, highly-professional editorial by Andreas Kolbe in the Wikipedia Signpost:

Walled gardens of corruption
07 October 2015
by Andreas Kolbe
...The Stanton Foundation, administered by Liz Allison, has historically been the Wikimedia Foundation's biggest donor. If it had been able to pressure or cajole Wikimedia Foundation staff into abandoning their principles in the Belfer Center paid-editing case, despite warnings from veteran Wikipedians like Pete Forsyth and Liam Wyatt, I wondered, perhaps the Belfer Center had had something to do with the Kazakh Wikipedian-of-the-Year award too? After all, the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) received a record-breaking $3.5 million grant from the Stanton Foundation in 2011, mere weeks after the Kazakh Wikipedian-of-the-Year award.

Wales denied it when asked about it on Reddit, adding he had never heard of Graham Allison, the Belfer Center, or Liz Allison before – despite the many millions the Stanton Foundation has given the WMF over the past few years, and despite Wales' having assisted the Belfer Center's professor Joseph Nye with a 2014 "good government and trust-building" project realised in cooperation with the United Arab Emirates government (another human rights violator). Wales said he had not bothered to research professor Nye's more detailed affiliations and was unaware of them, just as he said he was unaware of Kenzhekhanuly's prior government roles (listed in his LinkedIn profile) at the time he gave him the award...
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
Moral Hazard
Super Genius
Posts: 3401
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:46 pm
Wikipedia User: Kiefer.Wolfowitz
Nom de plume: Kiefer Wolfowitz
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:15 pm

Outstanding work, Andreas. I've said it before, but this is your best ever. It may be the best piece on Wikipedia that I've read ever.

Perhaps it could be CC-3.0'd to be a blog post?
Kiefer.Wolfowitz (T-C-L)
“Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.”
Neal Stephenson (T-H-L) Cryptonomicon

User avatar
DanMurphy
Habitué
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:58 pm
Wikipedia User: Dan Murphy
Wikipedia Review Member: DanMurphy

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by DanMurphy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:29 pm

To good not to share.

Jimbo Wales wrote (the below contains a number of lies) in 2012:
The Wikimedia Foundation has zero collaboration with the government of Kazakhstan. Wikibilim is a totally independent organization. And it is absolutely wrong to say that I am "helping the Kazakh regime whitewash its image". I am a firm and strong critic. At the same time, I'm excited by the work of volunteers, and I believe - very strongly - that an open and independent Wikipedia will be the death knell for tyranny in places like Kazakhstan. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is absolutely silly to suggest that I'm in any way actively supporting tyrants.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
How's that working out?
Government officials in Kazakhstan are borrowing a page from China, quietly devising their own version of China’s so-called Great Firewall to unscramble encrypted web and mobile traffic as it flows in and out of Kazakh borders.

... Unlike with China, which filters data through an expensive and complex digital infrastructure known as the Great Firewall, security experts say Kazakhstan is trying to achieve the same effect at a lower cost. The country is mandating that its citizens install a new “national security certificate” on their computers and smartphones that will intercept requests to and from foreign websites.

That gives officials the opportunity to read encrypted traffic between Kazakh users and foreign servers, in what security experts call a “man in the middle attack.”

As a result, Kazakh telecom operators, and government officials, will be privy to mobile and web traffic between Kazakh users and foreign servers, bypassing encryption protections known as S.S.L., or Secure Sockets Layer, and H.T.T.P.S., technology that encrypts browsing sessions and is familiar to users by the tiny padlock icon that appears in browsers.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:54 pm

Thanks for sharing, Dan. I wonder if some Wikipedian in good standing would ask JimboTalk to comment on this new development, since Jimbo is an expert both in toppling Kazakh regimes and in encryption.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:46 pm

thekohser wrote:Jimbo is an expert both in toppling Kazakh regimes and in encryption.
Indeed, since the break-up of the USSR, there has only been one Kazakh regime that he has not toppled single-handedly. :mellow:
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31490
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:23 am

DanMurphy wrote:To good not to share.

Jimbo Wales wrote (the below contains a number of lies) in 2012:
The Wikimedia Foundation has zero collaboration with the government of Kazakhstan. Wikibilim is a totally independent organization. And it is absolutely wrong to say that I am "helping the Kazakh regime whitewash its image". I am a firm and strong critic. At the same time, I'm excited by the work of volunteers, and I believe - very strongly - that an open and independent Wikipedia will be the death knell for tyranny in places like Kazakhstan. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is absolutely silly to suggest that I'm in any way actively supporting tyrants.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
How's that working out?
Government officials in Kazakhstan are borrowing a page from China, quietly devising their own version of China’s so-called Great Firewall to unscramble encrypted web and mobile traffic as it flows in and out of Kazakh borders.

... Unlike with China, which filters data through an expensive and complex digital infrastructure known as the Great Firewall, security experts say Kazakhstan is trying to achieve the same effect at a lower cost. The country is mandating that its citizens install a new “national security certificate” on their computers and smartphones that will intercept requests to and from foreign websites.

That gives officials the opportunity to read encrypted traffic between Kazakh users and foreign servers, in what security experts call a “man in the middle attack.”

As a result, Kazakh telecom operators, and government officials, will be privy to mobile and web traffic between Kazakh users and foreign servers, bypassing encryption protections known as S.S.L., or Secure Sockets Layer, and H.T.T.P.S., technology that encrypts browsing sessions and is familiar to users by the tiny padlock icon that appears in browsers.
Taking a page from the poor man's tinpot dictator toolkit.
I'd have expected that they'd just root the PCs with a spear phishing attack with a corrupted jpg or some such.
"You must click on the following link to get access to the ISP."

This is much more like burly men bugging your hotel phone while you're sitting in the room on the bed across from the phone.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

User avatar
Kingsindian
Habitué
Posts: 2593
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:07 am
Wikipedia User: Kingsindian

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Kingsindian » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:31 am

I just want to point out that the Andreas Kolbe piece is excellent. I think I read it when it came out.

The tactic of burying inconvenient information in lots of UNDUE material is very common on Israel-Palestine articles, which are similarly plagued by sockpuppets and SPAs. It is harder to get away with it because more people watch it, but then there are also thousands of articles there.

I firmly believe that many Israel-Palestine articles only need copyediting and removal of UNDUE elements to be excellent articles. They already contain a lot of good content if you read between the lines. Some of the content is hard to find elsewhere, even on specialist and activist websites.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:39 pm

Jimbo is amazing, how easily he can tell bald-faced lies. What I still don't understand is if he's so delusional that he actually believes in his (feeble) mind what he's saying, or if he knows full well the audacity of his falsehoods and he just lacks any shame whatsoever.
Also, you claimed in 2012 that 'Wikibilim is a totally independent organization'. Wasn't there a question about that? Peter Damian (talk) 18:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I am unaware of any questions about that. It remains true.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
He's so much like a little weasel, I wonder if he smells like one, too?
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:37 pm

As far as we can tell, Jimmy Wales thinks that the Kazakh Wikipedia is running in a suitably neutral context, independent of any direction from the government of Kazakhstan.

Let's take a quick look.

The English Wikipedia has an article, Zhanaozen massacre (T-H-L), describing a labor protest where 14 civilians were killed by police. The state described the killed as "hooligans".

On the Kazakh Wikipedia, the same article is entitled Жаңаөзен оқиғасы, which translates roughly as "Zhanaozen Story".

Got that? In English it's a massacre, in Kazakh it's just a story.

The lede of the English-language article notes: "The massacre was a stark illustration of the country's poor human rights record under President Nursultan Nazarbayev."

The Kazakh article mentions Nazarbayev by name only once: "On December 22, a special visit was made by President Nursultan Nazarbayev who arrived in the Mangistau region."

The largest section of the English article details the testimony disclosed during the investigations after the shootings. It generally focuses on the point of view of the protesters and of outside watchdog groups.

The largest section of the Kazakh article details the testimony of the General Prosecutor's Office, which describes the protesters as having engaged in "misconduct", and that "the suppression of the riots" was necessary "for the protection of civilians". The "hooligans" were participating in "mass disorder".

And that's why 64 people were shot.

Looking good, Jimbo! Keep up the good work!
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:35 am

Wales says,
Jimmy Wales wrote:I have no connection with the Kazakh government, despite the ongoing pretense by people who know better. I oppose them firmly. I have had contact with them in the past, and I would imagine that I will again - to lobby for change. I will not apologize for that, nor will I allow dishonest people to portray opposition as support."
Maybe it's worth mentioning that he said at Wikimania 2012 (i.e. one year after the original announcement) that he'd spoken to the Kazakh ambassador that morning and hoped to travel to Kazakhstan to give them the award ''in the presence of the president and prime minister''.

Peter Damian transcribed that part of his speech once.

The audio file is here, time code 23:45 onward.

Wales would have us believe that going to Kazakhstan and handing Nazarbayev a photo op worth gold is "opposition". And that it would be really "dishonest" to portray his plan to give the government's Kazakh Wikipedia effort an award, in the presence of the Kazakh President and Prime Minister, as support. :confused:

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:33 pm

Just parking an archive of https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/Kazakhstan here: https://archive.is/4xK95

Contains a number of facts Wales claimed he was unaware of.

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31490
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:43 pm

HRIP7 wrote:Just parking an archive of https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/Kazakhstan here: https://archive.is/4xK95

Contains a number of facts Wales claimed he was unaware of.
That's funny.
There's a direct link in that eurasianet article to the question I asked Jimmy on his AMA.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ ... ia/cpl4maq


That's gotta burn.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:32 pm

Vigilant wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:Just parking an archive of https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/Kazakhstan here: https://archive.is/4xK95

Contains a number of facts Wales claimed he was unaware of.
That's funny.
There's a direct link in that eurasianet article to the question I asked Jimmy on his AMA.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ ... ia/cpl4maq

That's gotta burn.
You did good work there. :)

User avatar
Kingsindian
Habitué
Posts: 2593
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:07 am
Wikipedia User: Kingsindian

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Kingsindian » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:01 am

I can almost hear the squirming.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:27 am

Jimmy Wales delivers the closest thing to straight answers on Kazakhstan to date:
Jimbo Wales, apparently you missed these questions, which were buried in a preceding thread, so I’m giving them more prominence here. And pinging you.

Q1: Did you ever actually pay the Kazakh state apparatchik the $5,000 that supposedly went with his Wikipedia of the Year award?

Q2: You wrote above, on 15 December, “Wikibilim is a completely independent organization with no control over the Kazakh Wikipedia. It is not a local chapter, and there are no plans for it ever to become a local chapter.” (Emphasis added.) Wikibilim’s own CC submission states: “Recognition of «Wikibilim» as a Wikipedia local chapter in Kazakhstan is in progress.” [15] Obviously there were plans for Wikibilim to become a local chapter. What happened to its application? Why were the plans permanently scrapped?
Writegeist (talk) 08:26, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Q1: No.

Q2: You would have to ask them and people directly involved in the chapter submission process. If I had to guess, when it became clear that such an application would be very unlikely to be approved, they dropped further action on it. But I'm not directly involved. If the matter came to the board, I would strongly encourage the board to not approve the application without some major changes and some thorough due diligence.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Q1: Thank you for clearing that up.

Q2: I note your emphasis on "due diligence". It’s interesting that Nartay Ashim, Wikibilim’s “National Coordinator”, is listed among the attendees at the 2012 Wikimedia Conference Chapters meeting (so apparently the WMF were already treating Wikibilim as a chapter); and that the WMF gave Wikibilim $16,000 for the 2012 Turkic Wikimedia Conference in Kazakhstan. Was that because the WMF board had failed in its due diligence? I.e. had the WMF failed to grasp that the Kazakh Wikipedia is a project of the Kazakh government?

When you’d accepted the official invitation to Kazakhstan from Yerlan Idrissov (their ambassador to the US), Khazak TV announced you’d thanked the Kazakh government for “creating conditions for significant achievements in the development of the Kazakh language Wikipedia”, and that you’d announced your intention to visit (as you did on Wikipedia). You didn’t go; and neither, as you now confirm, did you ever pay the promised $5,000 to the Kazakh state apparatchik who won your Wikipedian of the Year award. Was that because it wasn’t until after you'd thanked the Kazakh government that you did your due diligence? Writegeist (talk) 23:07, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:44 pm

Great stuff. As Writegeist is a member here, I'd like to give him :applause:

Maybe we'll get to the bottom of this in about ten years' time!
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:37 pm

Poetlister wrote:Great stuff. As Writegeist is a member here, I'd like to give him :applause:

Maybe we'll get to the bottom of this in about ten years' time!
It might take longer ...

https://archive.is/C10rv#selection-6649.0-6657.31
https://archive.is/rE7Qn
I have never met nor spoken nor even heard of Yerlan Idrissov. I have never accepted any official invitation to Kazakstan. I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US. I have never spoken to Kazakh TV.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Now, the recording is poor, but it seems to me at Wikimania 2012 in Washington Wales said quite clearly, here, time code 24:22:
23:45 So, now it's time for the global awards, yay! [applause] I started this last year and I hope to make it an ongoing tradition. And last year for the first time I gave the Wikipedian of the Award ... of the Year Award to Rauan, who is here somewhere, can he stand up? Here, from Kazakh Wikipedia. And I also gave a donation to the Kazakh Wikipedia community, and to visit, er, Kazakhstan, neither of those things has actually happened yet but the offer still stands and actually I met with the ambassador of Kazakhstan this morning, and I'm planning a trip there as soon as possible so that I can give them an award in the presence of the President and Prime Minister whoever we can rein in will come to that ...


So, knowing Jimmy Wales' penchant for saying things that misdirect readers while being technically true, what does it mean if he now says, "I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US"? He spoke to some other ambassador? He didn't meet him at the Kazakh embassy, but somewhere else? Or what?
Last edited by HRIP7 on Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:47 pm

The Kazakh TV report that said Jimmy Wales thanked the Kazakh government has unfortunately disappeared from the Kazakh TV website. It can still be viewed here though.
Being impressed by the achievements of Kazakhstan in the development of Wikipedia its founder Jimmy Wales announced his intention to visit our country. The Kazakhstan Ambassador to the US Yerlan Idrissov has already handed over an official invitation to Mr. Wales. Having accepted the invitation, Jimmy Wales thanked the Kazakh government for creating conditions for significant achievements in the development of the Kazakh language Wikipedia.
This was just after Wikimania Washington.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:37 pm

This reminds me of how Wales told Wikimania 2011,
Jimmy Wales wrote:I also have been getting in touch with the government there, I've been talking to the Prime Minister there ...

(Time code 39:00).

Then last year, on Reddit, he claimed he had never spoken to the Prime Minister either.
If I said that I spoke to the Kazakh PM, that was wrong - but I don't have time to listen to it right now. I spoke (by phone) to someone from the office of the PM and met with someone from the office of the PM in Davos.
The nature of the discussion? It was on the importance of freedom of speech and the problems that I have with Kazakh's record on these matters.
That's presumably why he announced to Wikimania that day that he would visit Kazakhstan in December and give the award for the Kazakh Wikipedia project, run under the auspices of the Prime Minister, with the Prime Minister in attendance.

But clearly, he never talked to the Prime Minister about that. :confused:

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:55 pm

Is anyone else getting the sense that Jimbo is a lying scumbag?
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:44 pm

Heh. Smallbones has hatted the discussion.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:32 pm

HRIP7 wrote:Heh. Smallbones has hatted the discussion.
And reverted. By a woman. So, if Smallbones tries it again, he can be a part of the gender gap problem, too.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31490
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:02 pm

HRIP7 wrote:Heh. Smallbones has hatted the discussion.
At this point, I can only imagine his choice of nym is an homage to Jimbo's tackle.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:39 am

It seems that Wales expects everyone to believe that whatever he says today is the truth, regardless of what he might have said yesterday, or what he might say tomorrow. If he says something different today from what he said yesterday, or says something different again tomorrow, then that is simply because the truth has changed, and everybody had better catch up.

Like a text-book sociopath, he accepts no accountability to anyone, for he considers himself the fixed point around which the entire universe revolves. In that sense, the god-king moniker contained an important kernel of psychological truth.

I am mystified why Wikipedians tolerate someone as their figurehead who treats them with such utter contempt.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:39 am

HRIP7 wrote:It seems that Wales expects everyone to believe that whatever he says today is the truth, regardless of what he might have said yesterday, or what he might say tomorrow. If he says something different today from what he said yesterday, or says something different again tomorrow, then that is simply because the truth has changed, and everybody had better catch up.
"When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?" (J M Keynes)

Maybe Jimbo really believes that the world has changed.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Kingsindian
Habitué
Posts: 2593
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:07 am
Wikipedia User: Kingsindian

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Kingsindian » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:43 am

HRIP7 wrote:I am mystified why Wikipedians tolerate someone as their figurehead who treats them with such utter contempt.
Most Wikipedians don't care about Wales, Kazakhstan and what Wales says about Kazakhstan.
Also, Wales is mostly harmless, isn't he, except exploiting his past for speaking fees? If idiots want to pay other idiots for spouting platitudes, let them.

Image
Last edited by Kingsindian on Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:44 am

Kingsindian wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:I am mystified why Wikipedians tolerate someone as their figurehead who treats them with such utter contempt.
Most Wikipedians don't care about Wales, Kazakhstan and what Wales says about Kazakhstan.
I expect that most of them don't even know, depending on how you define Wikipedians.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:15 pm

Above you say: “I have never met nor spoken nor even heard of Yerlan Idrissov"— Kazakhstan's ambassador to the US; and "I have never accepted any official invitation to Kazakstan. I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US.” (Emphasis added.)

At Wikimania 2012 you said: “I met with the Ambassador of Kazakhstan this morning.”

Which of these two statements is the truth? Writegeist (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Presumably the second one. I have no recollection of it, and I can say I certainly didn't have any sort of formal sit down meeting. In a line up of dignitaries, it is of course possible. As I have said before, I misspoke if I said in 2011 that I had talked to the Kazakh Prime Minister at that time. I had talked to his office, an Australian guy named Catallus. And since then, I have met with the Prime Minister of Kazakhstan and spoke to him about his country's dreadful human rights record. I've also had, with Orit Kopel of the Jimmy Wales Foundation for Freedom of Information, a formal meeting with the Kazakh Ambassador to discuss freedom of expression. I will continue to have meetings with dignitaries and officials from many countries to lobby for positive change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:55, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

User avatar
Kingsindian
Habitué
Posts: 2593
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:07 am
Wikipedia User: Kingsindian

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Kingsindian » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:45 pm

I don't think talking with a head of state about "their human rights record" does anything good except making you feel better. Unless one puts their money where one's mouth is, such talk is meaningless. Wales can simply say that they don't care about Kazakhstan's human rights record. His aim is to spread the word about Wikipedia (or maybe get contacts/speaking opportunities).

If one stops to think about it, Wales does not care about many things, like Qatar's human rights record, Israel's human rights record, or India's human rights record. That is normal. One shouldn't be hypocritical about it.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:03 pm

I've written a little piece in the German Kurier about all of this. It's titled "Santa Claus Wales".

Those of you who don't speak German will at least enjoy the hyperlink on the word "welchen". :)

Happy Christmas!

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Jim » Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:22 pm

HRIP7 wrote:
I have never met nor spoken nor even heard of Yerlan Idrissov. I have never accepted any official invitation to Kazakstan. I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US. I have never spoken to Kazakh TV.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Now, the recording is poor, but it seems to me at Wikimania 2012 in Washington Wales said quite clearly, here, time code 24:22:
23:45 So, now it's time for the global awards, yay! [applause] I started this last year and I hope to make it an ongoing tradition. And last year for the first time I gave the Wikipedian of the Award ... of the Year Award to Rauan, who is here somewhere, can he stand up? Here, from Kazakh Wikipedia. And I also gave a donation to the Kazakh Wikipedia community, and to visit, er, Kazakhstan, neither of those things has actually happened yet but the offer still stands and actually I met with the ambassador of Kazakhstan this morning, and I'm planning a trip there as soon as possible so that I can give them an award in the presence of the President and Prime Minister whoever we can rein in will come to that ...

So, knowing Jimmy Wales' penchant for saying things that misdirect readers while being technically true, what does it mean if he now says, "I have never spoken to anyone at the Kazakh embassy in the US"? He spoke to some other ambassador? He didn't meet him at the Kazakh embassy, but somewhere else? Or what?
I put that audio file on Google Drive, as an mp3, at Wikimania2012-Opening2.mp3, in case it becomes "hard to find" for any reason.

And, yes, Happy Christmas to all!

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:58 pm

Jimbo wrote:I had talked to his office, an Australian guy named Catallus... --Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:55, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Presumably: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catullushelmer
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:30 pm

Gee, it's hopeless with Jimbo.
Jimbo wrote:Diplomatic gestures to open a discussion, given promises from aides and general news reports at the time that they were interested in change, is not support for a tyrannical regime, but support for change.
I wonder whether anyone other than the Kazakh officials themselves impressed upon him (wrongly) that there was positive change underway in Kazakhstan.
Jimbo wrote:I don't understand your second point at all. It seems dependent on severe and deliberate misinterpretation of multiple parties. Wikibilim does not control and does not manage the Kazakh language Wikipedia. Indeed, when I last checked, employees are forbidden from editing Wikipedia. If that has changed, that's interesting and useful information - I haven't checked recently. There have been other instances of previous encyclopedias being imported with permission into Wikipedia (one in Kerala comes to mind) and yes - they generally come in with severe biases that the community needs to correct.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
He knows they edit (unless he has forgotten that as well).

Some years ago (10 January 2013), I had the following e-mail exchange with him:
I wrote:Nartay Ashim is described here:

http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Kazakhstan

as the "National Coordinator of WikiBilim". He edits as User:Ashina:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ashina

User:Ashina has edited President Nazarbayev's biography in the Kazakh Wikipedia, and he is the sole author of the Kazakh article on the 2011 Mangystau riots, easily the most controversial event in Kazakhstan's recent history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Mangystau_riots

http://kk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D0%B0%D2%A3%D0%B0%D3%A9%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%BE%D2%9B%D0%B8%D2%93%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8B_(2011_%D0%B6%D1%8B%D0%BB)

(Note the advertising banner for WikiBilim at the top of the page. There is one on every page, alternating with another banner, and there is also a WikiBilim logo on the Kazakh main page.)

Edit history for the Kazakh Mangystau riots article:

http://kk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%96%D0%B0%D2%A3%D0%B0%D3%A9%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%BE%D2%9B%D0%B8%D2%93%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8B_(2011_%D0%B6%D1%8B%D0%BB)&action=history
Jimbo's response?
Wales wrote:He edits on his own time. Lots of people do that.
I answered him as follows:
I wrote:That Nartay is doing his editing of articles related to the regime that finances his organisation "on his own time" is the lamest excuse I have heard in a while. It's like excusing Bell Pottinger employees' editing by saying, "Oh, they did it after hours."
I also told him I had no interest in continuing the email conversation and would forward any further emails to journalists, so that was the end of that one.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:05 am

Der Jimbo wrote:He edits on his own time. Lots of people do that.
For a man who always seems to be lacking memory of even the most memorable things, that strikes me as a peculiarly specific detail that the forgetful one has masterfully latched onto.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:12 am

So, let's look at who wrote the Kazakh Wikipedia article about the Zhanaozen massacre (T-H-L).

LinkedIn profile (archive)
Managing Director, Head of Astana office
Bilim Media Group
January 2015 – Present (1 year)
- Astana Bilim Lab
- Government and Public Relations
- Corporate communications
- Product Development
- Business Development

Managing Director, Government and Corporate Communication
Altyn Kyran (Golden Eagle) Group of Companies
January 2015 – September 2015 (9 months)
- Corporate Communication
- Social Projects - Charity Foundation activities
- Public Relations Strategy
- Diplomatic Business Club presentation

Vice Chairman, Internet Projects
Kazcontent JSC
May 2013 – January 2015 (1 year 9 months)
- Corporate Communications
- Chief Information Officer / IT infrastructure
- Cultural and educational product development
- Strategy Planning
- Sales

Lecturer (part time)
Kazakh National Technical University named after K. Satbayev
September 2011 – June 2013 (1 year 10 months)
Faculty of Oil and Gas, Machinery and Equipment Department
- Well Intervention and Workover Operations
- Design the Field Production Equipment
- Drilling tools and equipment
- Supervisor for Final Project (1 student).

Co-Founder, CEO
WikiBilim Foundation
July 2011 – May 2013 (1 year 11 months)
- Education Program
- Creative Commons License adaptation and promotion
- Open Culture
- Open Science

Public Relations Specialist
Karakudukmunay (KKM) LLP, LUKOIL
July 2008 – April 2011 (2 years 10 months)
- Coordinating social projects
- Public and Government Relations

Kazcontent operates the Kazakh Prime Minister's website, primeminister.kz.

Twitter account

Wikipedia contributions

The chap's always edited Wikipedia. So when Jimbo says –
Jimbo wrote:Indeed, when I last checked, employees are forbidden from editing Wikipedia. If that has changed, that's interesting and useful information - I haven't checked recently.
– that's just risible, and more obfuscation. Moreover, it would have taken Wales two minutes to establish for himself that it's untrue – even if he had forgotten that he knew it very well in 2013. He's just playing games. Maybe he'll argue next that Managing Directors are not employees. :)

Question to Wikipedians: Why are you staying silent and letting him get away with it?

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Wikibilim's history with Jimbo and the WMF

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:20 am

This forgotten thread contains some important timeline info about the early days of the KZ Wikipedia project. Could a mod copy (not merge) the posts to the main Kazakhstan thread, so the info is in there as well?

User avatar
Zoloft
Trustee
Posts: 13984
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:54 pm
Wikipedia User: Stanistani
Wikipedia Review Member: Zoloft
Actual Name: William Burns
Nom de plume: William Burns
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Re: Wikibilim's history with Jimbo and the WMF

Unread post by Zoloft » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:03 am

HRIP7 wrote:This forgotten thread contains some important timeline info about the early days of the KZ Wikipedia project. Could a mod copy (not merge) the posts to the main Kazakhstan thread, so the info is in there as well?
The old thread referred to is here: Wikibilim's history with Jimbo and the WMF
I have copied the posts into this topic, and they landed here: linkviewtopic.php?p=167822#p167822[/link]

My avatar is sometimes indicative of my mood:
  • Actual mug ◄
  • Uncle Cornpone
  • Zoloft bouncy pill-thing


User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Wikibilim's history with Jimbo and the WMF

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:41 am

Zoloft wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:This forgotten thread contains some important timeline info about the early days of the KZ Wikipedia project. Could a mod copy (not merge) the posts to the main Kazakhstan thread, so the info is in there as well?
The old thread referred to is here: Wikibilim's history with Jimbo and the WMF
I have copied the posts into this topic, and they landed here: linkviewtopic.php?p=167822#p167822[/link]
Thanks, Bill, and season's greetings.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Poetlister » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:37 pm

Kingsindian wrote:Qatar's human rights record, Israel's human rights record
Are you suggesting that there's any comparison? :blink:
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:22 am

Ashina hasn't just edited the Kazakh Wikipedia, he has also been an admin since August 2011 (one of only a dozen or so).

Kazakh Wikipedia admin template:

https://kk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D2%AE%D0 ... 0%B5%D1%80

Ashina's bureaucrat vote:

https://kk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... did=435204 (first support vote by Rauan; the one oppose vote argues that given their low number of users, one bureaucrat is enough.)


Log:

https://kk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... anks_log=1

15:53, 2011 ж. тамыздың 26 Ashina (Талқылауы | үлесі) Ashina үшін топ мүшелігін бітікші дегеннен бітікші және әкімші дегенге өзгертті
16:55, 2011 ж. тамыздың 25 GaiJin (Талқылауы | үлесі) Ashina үшін топ мүшелігін (ешқандай) дегеннен бітікші дегенге өзгертті (see voting results: Уикипедия:Бітікшілерді_сайлау#Ashina)
00:33, 2011 ж. наурыздың 8 Ashina (Талқылауы | үлесі) жаңадан тіркелді
Google translation:
15:53, 2011. August 26 Ashina (Talk | share) Ashina Bureaucrat Bureaucrat than the membership of the group and changed to administrator
16:55, 2011. August 25 GaiJin (Talk | share) Ashina group membership (no) is changed to Bureaucrat (see voting results: Wikipedia: Bitikşilerdi_saylaw # Ashina)
00:33, 2011. March 8 Ashina (Talk | share) of the newly registered
The vote was for bureaucratship; it looks like he himself changed his rights to admin only the day after.

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:43 pm

Thanks - I thought your position was that Wikibilim was entirely independent of the government? Peter Damian (talk) 14:50, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

No, that is not my position. Never has been since they secured their major funding from Samruk-Kazna. I wish they had never sought nor received that funding, although it is understandable that they would naturally turn to their government for a grant.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:02, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Now, the timeline posted on Meta says quite clearly:
4 May 2011 – registration of WikiBilim Public Foundation
15-30 May 2011 – starting communication with Wikimedia Foundation Inc.
20 May 2011 – signed agreement with Kazakh National Encyclopedia to provide us their own content under CC-BY-SA 3.0 license.
1 June 2011 – Signed agreement with Nokia Kazakhstan company to provide sponsorship in Wiki Contest (featured articles and active editors).
8 June 2011 – Signed Trademark License Agreement with Wikimedia Foundation Inc.
16 June 2011 – received the letter of support from the CEO of Samruk-Kazyna Foundation to provide sponsorship.
16 June 2011 – Conduct press-conference (participated Mr. Ting Chen, MP Mr. Murat Abenov, Chief Editor of Kazakh encyclopedia Mr.Bauyrzhan Zhakyp, Deputy Head of Kazcontent JSC. Mr. A.Tutykin)

20 June 2011 – Start summer practice with International IT University. WB provided tutorial on how to contribute on Wikipedia.
4-7 August, 2011- WikiBilim team participated in Wikimania-2011 conference

The announcement of Samruk-Kazyna support happened almost two months before Wikimania 2011, where Wales created the Wikipedian of the Year Award and bestowed it on Wikibilim. Ting Chen, then a Wikimedia Foundation board member, participated in a press conference together with government representatives and functionaries in June. Ting even posted about Samruk-Kazyna's support of Wikibilim on the Wikimedia-l mailing list:
I was mostly on travel last week, and had visited Almaty, Kazakhstan. Something really remarkable is happenning there. Our volunteers there had started to organize a nationwide movement and had found support in the politics, companies and media. The Kazakh Encyclopedia had decided to put its up-to-date 16-band encyclopedia under a free licence. There are initiatives in the parliament to make the copyright law more clear and supportive in respect of free-licenses, and the biggest national welfare fund "Samruk-Kazyna" had decided to fund activities to build up the Kazakh Wikipedia.
Wales referenced Ting's reports at Wikimania. Surely he knew everything Ting knew?

So, if Wales now says that Wikibilim's state support and financing is a very serious concern, why on earth did he give them a prize in 2011 regardless? Why wasn't it a problem to him in 2011?
To my knowledge, no organization in Kazakhstan has permission to use the Wikipedia trademarks. As with every language version of Wikipedia, Kazakh language Wikipedia is hosted on Wikimedia Foundation servers and is 100% under the legal control of the WMF. There is no trademark agreement to revoke with anyone.
I'm surprised this organizational information isn't known to you, but assuming good faith, I suppose what you are suggesting is that the WMF could remove the logo from the website? That wouldn't do very much, since it's all about the domain name and the inbound links. Other options that you might be suggesting, such as closing down the Kazakh language Wikipedia (or deleting the content to start over or something like that) don't strike me as particularly helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:15, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
As the timeline above points out, Wikibilim did indeed have a trademark licence agreement with the Wikimedia Foundation. I recall they displayed such trademarks on their website (that is now no longer the case).

It seems the agreement must have been revoked. If so, the natural question is: when and why?

And have a look at the timeline. Wikibilim, as a "proto-chapter", had a trademark licence agreement just a month after the organisation was formed. Is this not rather unusual? My impression is that organisations wishing to become chapters generally have to wait a lot longer than this for such an agreement. What was it that put Wikibilim on such a fast track?

We have been told that neither Tony Blair nor the Stanton Foundation's record-breaking donation after Wikimania 2011 had anything to do with it. We have been told that Jimmy Wales did not speak to the Kazakh Prime Minister in Davos, even though Wikibilim claimed there had been such a discussion, and Wales himself told Wikimania that he had spoken to the Kazakh government and the prime minister there. So, what was it that got Wikibilim such quick approval?

Wales asks for proposed actions. Well, one thing the Wikimedia Foundation could do would be to display a banner on every content page of the Kazakh Wikipedia, in English and Kazakh, pointing out that the content may have been unduly influenced by the Kazakh government, and that readers may want to consult other language versions of Wikipedia to get a more rounded view. The precise wording could be worked out on a page in Meta.

That would actually signal that they, rather than the Kazakh government, have control over the Kazakh Wikipedia.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:37 pm

I have saved an MP3 version of just the minute where Jimbo spoke about Rauan Kenzhekhanuly, the Kazakh Wikipedia community, and meeting with the Kazakh ambassador. Page includes a transcript.
Last edited by thekohser on Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:54 pm

Anyone else notice this?

Peter Damian pointed out to Jimbo, "At Wikimania 2012 you said: “I met with the Ambassador of Kazakhstan this morning.”"

Jimbo responds: "I misspoke if I said in 2011 that I had talked to the Kazakh Prime Minister at that time..."

He's constantly moving the goalposts so that he cannot be caught in his lying.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:34 pm

He said both.

1. He said in 2011 that he had spoken to the Kazakh Prime Minister. He denied it later, saying he "misspoke"; just like he said the Kazakhs were in error when they claimed their Prime Minister had discussed the development of the Kazakh Wikipedia with Wales in Davos.

2. He said in 2012 in Washington that he had met with the Kazakh ambassador that morning. He denied it the other day, in the current discussion, and then, faced with the audio of his speech, admitted that he must have met him, but can't remember it.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by thekohser » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:56 pm

Imagine if Jimbo had just taken us seriously in December 2012, and he had aggressively addressed the mistakes he made in the summer of 2011, owned up to them, and then worked for actual progress and freedom on the Kazakh Wikipedia?
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by HRIP7 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:49 pm

:pigsfly:

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31490
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Jimbo and the Kazakh Government

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:47 am

Writegeist hammers home the point on JimboStalk
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =697181289
I had already got to the point: to be blunt, the takeout from my post is that you appear untrustworthy when it comes to facts.

For further clarification, and at the risk of belaboring the point:

You’re no fool. You successfully hosted soft porn on the Internet. You were one of the people who started an online encyclopedia compiled by volunteers. You parlayed that into public speaking engagements and some useful social climbing in London and elsewhere. And you cast yourself in the role of bold free speech activist and “lobbyist for change”. Yet you stand shoulder to shoulder with representatives of a despotic regime when they mount an odious public PR exercise to whitewash their image in the eyes of the world, and on that stage and under that international gaze you coolly accept fistfuls of their money without also taking the opportunity of that public platform to utter so much as one word of protest against their vile human rights abuses, including lethal oppression of free speech—which, coming from you, and given the circumstances, would have put these crimes front and center in the global media. Further, you present an award to an operative of another repressive regime, also without uttering a word of condemnation; then also make plans to travel to the country to pay money to the recipient of your award in the presence of the country’s dignities, and when you announce these plans you inflate your importance by gulling an eager audience with a story of communicating with the host government at the highest level—with the prime minister, no less—when in fact the PM’s office had palmed you off onto some Australian guy; and then you don’t even go—thus missing another outstanding opportunity for public condemnation of the host regime’s records on human rights and free speech.

When you don’t walk the walk, your talk is further devalued. We’ve already seen pronouncements from you that are evasive and less than honest. E.g., to take a recent one: you “misspoke” about a chat with the Kazakh PM that never actually took place, just as Hillary Clinton “misspoke” about arriving under fire in Sarajevo, which never happened, and Richard Blumenthal “misspoke” about fighting in Vietnam. (To be fair though, it’s easy to mistake an untroubled stroll across an airport for ducking and diving through sniper fire, or being in America for fighting in Vietnam, or speaking to some Australian guy for speaking to the Kazakh PM.) Also, in 2012 in Washington, you said that you had met with the the Kazakh ambassador that morning. Later you denied saying it. When provided with the recording in which you said it, you backtracked, saying you couldn’t remember.

So for someone who isn’t a fool you sure do make yourself look like one; and by repeatedly underestimating the intelligence of well-informed people, you treat them like fools also. There are well-informed people among your Wikipedia volunteer force on whose work you have built your career. You present yourself as the public figurehead of their enterprise. They deserve a figurehead who doesn't appear foolish.

You ask what action I propose. I propose you either abandon the posture of advocating for human rights in general and free speech in particular or play the part with real commitment, conviction, courage, integrity, honesty, and good judgment. (Yes, yes, I know about the Jimmy Wales Foundation--and about the history of its creation.) Another proposal: escape the clutches of whatever amateurs appear to be advising you—to attend the China event, for example, when people who actually know what they’re talking about urged a boycott—and consult with experts who can give you knowledgeable, well-judged guidance on how to walk the walk.

Moving on briefly:
(1) You state on this page: “There is no trademark agreement [between Wikibilim and the WMF to revoke.”
(2) A post in August 2011 on Meta re. Wikibilim’s application for chapter status states: 8 June 2011 – Signed Trademark License Agreement with Wikimedia Foundation Inc.” August 2011ex.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Kazakhstan&diff=next&oldid=2838257
Point: These two conflicting statements cannot both be true. Question: Which is the truth? Proposed action: answer (1) or (2)
(3) “promises from aides . . . that [the Kazakh regime] were interested in change.” Aides of the regime? Proposed action: reply yes/no; if “no”, who were they? I ask because you also said:
(4) “[there were] news reports at the time that [the Kazakh regime] were interested in change.” Point: this appears false in light of the evidence (some of which I presented above) of the regime’s well-documented, implacable opposition to change. Proposed action: diffs please.
Thank you. Writegeist (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
That's a beating that would make me hang my head in shame were I the unfortunate target of these truthful allegations.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

Post Reply