My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banned)

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:44 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Vigilant wrote: Allow me to elucidate.

We only care about those in the addictive mode because they cause a vast majority of the problems.

If we are being honest, then:
* the vast majority of accounts are created and never edit
* the vast majority of those that edit make fewer than 10 edits ever
* the vast majority of accounts that edit regularly are out grinding gold/farming
* the vast majority of the problems come from a cadre of highly addicted power gamers...
I'm onboard with that.

tim
Then the inevitable.

The ranks of the decision makers are filled from that last group, almost all who are inherently unsuited to positions of control.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:19 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Vigilant wrote: Allow me to elucidate.

We only care about those in the addictive mode because they cause a vast majority of the problems.

If we are being honest, then:
* the vast majority of accounts are created and never edit
* the vast majority of those that edit make fewer than 10 edits ever
* the vast majority of accounts that edit regularly are out grinding gold/farming
* the vast majority of the problems come from a cadre of highly addicted power gamers...
I'm onboard with that.

tim
Then the inevitable.

The ranks of the decision makers are filled from that last group, almost all who are inherently unsuited to positions of control.
Well, if we're trading the axioms that "the vast majority of accounts that edit regularly are [encyclopedists working productively in their esoteric cul de sacs]" for "the vast majority of problems come from a cadre of highly addicted power gamers," it doesn't necessarily follow that governance is inevitably monopolized by the latter. Indeed, I think they are a distinct minority in the ranks of admins and a vanishingly small percentage of those admins elected to Arbcom.

RfB

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:45 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Vigilant wrote: Allow me to elucidate.

We only care about those in the addictive mode because they cause a vast majority of the problems.

If we are being honest, then:
* the vast majority of accounts are created and never edit
* the vast majority of those that edit make fewer than 10 edits ever
* the vast majority of accounts that edit regularly are out grinding gold/farming
* the vast majority of the problems come from a cadre of highly addicted power gamers...
I'm onboard with that.

tim
Then the inevitable.

The ranks of the decision makers are filled from that last group, almost all who are inherently unsuited to positions of control.
Well, if we're trading the axioms that "the vast majority of accounts that edit regularly are [encyclopedists working productively in their esoteric cul de sacs]" for "the vast majority of problems come from a cadre of highly addicted power gamers," it doesn't necessarily follow that governance is inevitably monopolized by the latter. Indeed, I think they are a distinct minority in the ranks of admins and a vanishingly small percentage of those admins elected to Arbcom.

RfB
The WMF seems to have had a higher percentage of the problem children in the past.
The various chapters seem utterly full to the brim with them.
Wikimania is filled with them.

They are the political activists that crave control.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:22 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:And your definition of "Wikipedia addiction" differs from "Wikipediocracy addiction" in exactly what manner???
Obviously, since Wikipediocracy is an unalloyed force for good, it can't be seen in the same light as evil Wikipedia. :sarcasm:
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:51 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:And your definition of "Wikipedia addiction" differs from "Wikipediocracy addiction" in exactly what manner???
Obviously, since Wikipediocracy is an unalloyed force for good, it can't be seen in the same light as evil Wikipedia. :sarcasm:
Indeed it can't, since there are significant (not to mention obvious) differences in how the two sites operate, what people get out of them, how people interact with them, and the nature of whatever relationships result from those interactions. That's not to say it's impossible to be addicted (or at least appear to be addicted) to one's participation on Wikipediocracy or some other Wikipedia-criticism site - in fact, we've seen that happen. Arguably, we see that happening now (and I won't say who, or which website(s), but I think most of us know to whom/what I'm referring). In our defense, though, I'd say our concern for such people has been greater than Wikipedia's, as we usually try to discourage them rather than exploit them.

I think what's happened here is that Mr. Randy has literally given himself a taste of his own medicine, he's realized that it tastes bad, and (as I stated at the outset) hopefully this means he won't use (or misuse) the word "addict" so casually in the future - unless he deliberately wants to offend someone, in which case he'll deserve what he gets in response.

I'll probably split these posts out of this thread tonight, since they're off-topic for this one, but that's all I was really trying to achieve here.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:47 am

Midsize Jake wrote:[I think what's happened here is that Mr. Randy has literally given himself a taste of his own medicine, he's realized that it tastes bad, and (as I stated at the outset) hopefully this means he won't use (or misuse) the word "addict" so casually in the future - unless he deliberately wants to offend someone, in which case he'll deserve what he gets in response.
Rolling this back to my first use, I was using the term ironically about someone else who used it seriously, per WPO:POTANDKETTLE. Your edit made it sound like I was using the term seriously. I more or less reject the entire "addiction" construct, unless I'm trading axioms with Vig.

I don't think Erika was an "addict," is an "addict," or will be an "addict" if she socks and edits again. That's the bottom line for me.

And, yeah, much of this has been off topic here — although WIKIPEDIA: THE DRUG??? isn't a terrible thread topic...

RfB
Last edited by Randy from Boise on Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:50 am

Vigilant wrote: The WMF seems to have had a higher percentage of the problem children in the past.
The various chapters seem utterly full to the brim with them.
Wikimania is filled with them.

They are the political activists that crave control.
They're the playahs and they like the moneyz...

There is a positive correlation between careerism and political gameplaying, although the right wing POV warriors don't have much hope of lucrative runs at WMF and aren't the same exact school of fish...

RfB

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:20 am

Graaf Statler wrote:
BrillLyle wrote: Before I knew it I was for real banned. Again with no recourse, no hearing, no way to defend myself. No way for others to defend me

They never give you the change to defend yourself.
I'm not a crazy person. What I am is neurotically passionate about things and I get caught up. I was updating a page I was really invested in – another cautionary tale of what NOT to do (i.e, don't be invested).
Of course you are not a crazy person, Don't blame yourself, they did to so many people the same.
When Graaf becomes the arbiter of what is and what is not crazy, we’ve stepped over into the Twilight Zone.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by BrillLyle » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:19 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
BrillLyle wrote:I'm not sure I understand the kerfluffle about addiction / obsession here...
I'm just challenging the frequently-heard narrative around these parts that Wikipedians are addicted videogamers playing the Amazing Encyclopedia Game in which the principle attraction is building Community Cred Points to allow one to smite one's enemies and thereby control Public Understanding of a biography or subject for the whole wide world.

I contend that while hobbyists can be obsessive in their leisuretime pursuits, that is exactly what Wikipedia is (like any of hundreds of others), and that the motivating factor for the vast majority of Wikipedians relates to the satisfaction of compiling and editing facts into more or less coherent packages for personal and public education. I contend that the World of Wikicraft Wargame is the hook for only a very minor fraction of WP participants and it is ludicrous to pretend otherwise.

This is a myth just like the myth we used to hear so regularly that Wikipedia administrators were a bunch of snot-nosed teenagers obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons.

RfB
Thanks for explaining. Appreciate it.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by BrillLyle » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:26 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
I don't think Erika was an "addict," is an "addict," or will be an "addict" if she socks and edits again. That's the bottom line for me.

And, yeah, much of this has been off topic here — although WIKIPEDIA: THE DRUG??? isn't a terrible thread topic...

RfB
Agree.

Not saying I'm socking, not saying I'm not socking.

I mean, what is the worst thing anyone can do to me at this point in re: WMF projects?!?

Life is a bit grim rn. Wikipedia is like a gnat on the wing of a fly at this point.

Just basically: FUCK Wikimedia Foundation. And seriously FUCK all the asshole editors and community members who derived such pleasure in doing what you did.

:twilightzone: :twilightzone: :twilightzone:

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Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:16 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:This is a myth just like the myth we used to hear so regularly that Wikipedia administrators were a bunch of snot-nosed teenagers obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons.
Quite right. They're a bunch of middle-aged men obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons. :D
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:This is a myth just like the myth we used to hear so regularly that Wikipedia administrators were a bunch of snot-nosed teenagers obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons.
Quite right. They're a bunch of middle-aged men obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons. :D
Touché...

RfB

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Unread post by Kumioko » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:16 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Poetlister wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:This is a myth just like the myth we used to hear so regularly that Wikipedia administrators were a bunch of snot-nosed teenagers obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons.
Quite right. They're a bunch of middle-aged men obsessed with the power of the delete and block buttons. :D
Touché...

RfB
+1 and you can add White male to that as well. :popcorn:

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:59 am

:like:
BrillLyle wrote:And seriously FUCK all the asshole editors and community members who derived such pleasure in doing what you did.
This. And that should include the assholes here and other Wiki criticism sites that love the juicy, delicious schädenfreude. And I’m not at all ashamed to admit I’m that kind of asshole. Watching an untouchable get their clean block record blemished is a thing of beauty, especially if they rage quit afterward. I especially love it when an admin is defrocked or a long time power-user gets their well deserved comeuppance. And don’t even get me started on boomerangs. I wub boomuhwangs. HeartHeartHeart.

The only thing that’s more enjoyable is when a there’s a successful attempt to lift sanctions from an editor. Watching each “side” marshal their troops for the inevitable support and oppose politicking is fascinating. That’s when I do a little research on this editor and try to figure out what their MO is, and most importantly what pisses them off. Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke. Their allies and enemies also get a dose of pokes. I serve at the pleasure of Drama God, who rewards me well. Her edict (yes, she’s female):
Drama God wrote:There are no innocents on Wikipedia.
For Drama God’s sake, I hope and pray Lightbreather makes a comeback attempt. That would be more fun than a basketful of kittens. She was a grade-A shit stirrer everywhere she went. Annoying the gun nuts and Jesus freaks was a bonus.

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Unread post by Kumioko » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:12 am

Well for what it's worth there are a lot of shit stirrers in the community still that haven't been banned including Fram who has been using the Arbcom as his own personal hit squad and hatchet men for years. I personally look forward to the next year or two, he is probably drafting several offline cases now and gathering evidence to come down hard on those that opposed him.

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Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:33 pm

Drama God wrote:There are no innocents on Wikipedia.
That's surely a slight exaggeration. The many editors who drop in and make a few minor edits, and have never heard of WP:ANI, cannot be other than innocent. Or is it a crime to edit Wikipedia even if you are unaware of the mess behind the scenes?
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:35 am

Poetlister wrote:
Drama God wrote:There are no innocents on Wikipedia.
That's surely a slight exaggeration. The many editors who drop in and make a few minor edits, and have never heard of WP:ANI, cannot be other than innocent. Or is it a crime to edit Wikipedia even if you are unaware of the mess behind the scenes?
That’s why I should be in charge. Of course I might make you do the heavy lifting.

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Unread post by Bezdomni » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:58 pm

Earthy Astrigent wrote:Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke.
Ahhh, were those you? :D

I encouraged T&S on the Fram issue, which is strange, because I really felt they dropped the ball badly with BrillLyle, among others. One thing I found encouraging was the limited time period they blocked Fram for (another was that they seem to have always been way over the top). I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
los auberginos

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Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:40 pm

Bezdomni wrote:
Earthy Astrigent wrote:Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke.
Ahhh, were those you? :D

I encouraged T&S on the Fram issue, which is strange, because I really felt they dropped the ball badly with BrillLyle, among others. One thing I found encouraging was the limited time period they blocked Fram for (another was that they seem to have always been way over the top). I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
Make no mistake, the regularization of nonpermanent "foundation-level" bans should be a good thing, insofar as it should leave a path to returning to good standing for people who have been foundation-banned for noncriminal/noncopyright reasons.

Where they went wrong, and is memorialized for eternity in WMF's boneheaded statement to that BuzzFeed News journo, is that they saw the regulation of incivility as falling under the TOU, when it plainly doesn't—and let there be no mistake here either, that's not me arguing a point of view I prefer, but a simple reading of the TOU contract. Incivility is not a violation of the TOU under even a twisted reading of that document.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:57 pm

mendaliv wrote:
Bezdomni wrote:
Earthy Astrigent wrote:Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke.
Ahhh, were those you? :D

I encouraged T&S on the Fram issue, which is strange, because I really felt they dropped the ball badly with BrillLyle, among others. One thing I found encouraging was the limited time period they blocked Fram for (another was that they seem to have always been way over the top). I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
Make no mistake, the regularization of nonpermanent "foundation-level" bans should be a good thing, insofar as it should leave a path to returning to good standing for people who have been foundation-banned for noncriminal/noncopyright reasons.

Where they went wrong, and is memorialized for eternity in WMF's boneheaded statement to that BuzzFeed News journo, is that they saw the regulation of incivility as falling under the TOU, when it plainly doesn't—and let there be no mistake here either, that's not me arguing a point of view I prefer, but a simple reading of the TOU contract. Incivility is not a violation of the TOU under even a twisted reading of that document.
Of course, they can unilaterally change that with a stroke of the pen, defining "persistent incivility" as "harassment."

RfB

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:59 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
mendaliv wrote:
Bezdomni wrote:
Earthy Astrigent wrote:Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke.
Ahhh, were those you? :D

I encouraged T&S on the Fram issue, which is strange, because I really felt they dropped the ball badly with BrillLyle, among others. One thing I found encouraging was the limited time period they blocked Fram for (another was that they seem to have always been way over the top). I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
Make no mistake, the regularization of nonpermanent "foundation-level" bans should be a good thing, insofar as it should leave a path to returning to good standing for people who have been foundation-banned for noncriminal/noncopyright reasons.

Where they went wrong, and is memorialized for eternity in WMF's boneheaded statement to that BuzzFeed News journo, is that they saw the regulation of incivility as falling under the TOU, when it plainly doesn't—and let there be no mistake here either, that's not me arguing a point of view I prefer, but a simple reading of the TOU contract. Incivility is not a violation of the TOU under even a twisted reading of that document.
Of course, they can unilaterally change that with a stroke of the pen, defining "persistent incivility" as "harassment."

RfB
That they could. I really wonder why they haven't.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:03 pm

mendaliv wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
mendaliv wrote:
Bezdomni wrote:
Earthy Astrigent wrote:Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke.
Ahhh, were those you? :D

I encouraged T&S on the Fram issue, which is strange, because I really felt they dropped the ball badly with BrillLyle, among others. One thing I found encouraging was the limited time period they blocked Fram for (another was that they seem to have always been way over the top). I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
Make no mistake, the regularization of nonpermanent "foundation-level" bans should be a good thing, insofar as it should leave a path to returning to good standing for people who have been foundation-banned for noncriminal/noncopyright reasons.

Where they went wrong, and is memorialized for eternity in WMF's boneheaded statement to that BuzzFeed News journo, is that they saw the regulation of incivility as falling under the TOU, when it plainly doesn't—and let there be no mistake here either, that's not me arguing a point of view I prefer, but a simple reading of the TOU contract. Incivility is not a violation of the TOU under even a twisted reading of that document.
Of course, they can unilaterally change that with a stroke of the pen, defining "persistent incivility" as "harassment."

RfB
That they could. I really wonder why they haven't.
I think they have to have a retreat in Switzerland with some group bonding exercises first. Then they'll brainstorm it in the evening in a dimly-lit room with a whiteboard in front of a crackling fireplace in the lodge...

RfB

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:06 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:I think they have to have a retreat in Switzerland with some group bonding exercises first. Then they'll brainstorm it in the evening in a dimly-lit room with a whiteboard in front of a crackling fireplace in the lodge...

RfB
Ah of course. One must have the right ambiance for something so dull as rulemaking.
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:48 pm

mendaliv wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Of course, they can unilaterally change that with a stroke of the pen, defining "persistent incivility" as "harassment."

RfB
That they could. I really wonder why they haven't.
Something to consider for the book on Wikipedia is a glossary explaining the Wikipedia meaning of various words.
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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Bezdomni » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:04 pm

mendaliv wrote:a simple reading of the TOU contract
TOU: Termination wrote:We reserve the right to suspend or end the services at any time, with or without cause, and with or without notice.
It's true that it would have probably been more felicitous had they added "access to" prior to "the services".
los auberginos

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:21 pm

Bezdomni wrote:
mendaliv wrote:a simple reading of the TOU contract
TOU: Termination wrote:We reserve the right to suspend or end the services at any time, with or without cause, and with or without notice.
It's true that it would have probably been more felicitous had they added "access to" prior to "the services".
Well no, because that's not what that section's purpose is. The purpose is not to suspend access to services, it's to suspend services entirely. That is, winding down operations and shutting down the Foundation. It's not talking about banning an individual.

Oh and before you come back with that later sentence that talks about banning: It's just a typical part of a contract wind-up section that discusses survivability of the terms beyond the cessation of operations of WMF. That's how any court would read it and it's plainly how it's intended.

Read Section 4, "Refraining from Certain Activities", which actually deals with causes for suspending access:
We encourage you to be civil and polite in your interactions with others in the community, to act in good faith, and to make edits and contributions aimed at furthering the mission of the shared Project.
Emphasis mine. Note that being "civil" is not mandatory (nor is being "polite", but reading that sentence as mandating civility also means reading it as mandating politeness). Same section:
Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other users, you may not engage in such activities on our sites. These activities include:
Harassing and Abusing Others
  • Engaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism; and
  • Transmitting chain mail, junk mail, or spam to other users.
Emphasis in original. "Harassing and abusing others" does not include civility. And, here's a fun bit of reading contracts: While the word "includes" is often read to indicate a non-exclusive list follows, that non-exclusivity only applies to the first layer of the list. Sublists do not receive the expansive benefit of the term "includes". Thus, while behavior other than the bolded items may be argued to be part of the prohibited conduct, that definition of "harassing and abusing others" is exhaustive. Thus, in reading that non-exclusive list, what unwritten rules can WMF include? It depends. Probably quite a bit, but, and this is key, it depends on the determination of a finder of fact. The fact that WMF have already put in a section on "harassing and abusing" behavior suggests that other things that could be considered "harassing and abusing" behavior that weren't included wouldn't be part of the contract.

But most importantly, read in context with the earlier sentence indicating that civility, politeness, good faith, and making contributions aimed at furthering WMF's mission are encouraged rather than mandated, it's clear that the prohibitory portion of Section 4 would not include those aspirational things. Because they'd be meaningless otherwise. And, honestly, in a contract of adhesion like this, you would tend to construe ambiguity (if you consider this ambiguous) against the draftsman (WMF).
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Bezdomni » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:31 pm

I'll bet you $1 that Jones & co. would probably not have much trouble at all having the line I cited be accepted by a judge as a justification for any ban whatsoever, given the surrounding context... i.e. reasons? we don't need no stinking reasons. ^^

Maybe Tulsi's lawsuit against Google will help clear up these matters :D
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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by mendaliv » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:38 pm

Bezdomni wrote:I'll bet you $1 that Jones & co. would probably not have much trouble at all having the line I cited be accepted by a judge as a justification for any ban whatsoever, given the surrounding context... i.e. reasons? we don't need no stinking reasons. ^^

Maybe Tulsi's lawsuit against Google will help clear up these matters :D
Well, the main problem would be getting past the basic motions to dismiss, as is the problem with any of these lawsuits. Once you were past that, and I think it could be done, you'd be into discovery and WMF would pay you to go away rather than finding damaging information in their internal files.

Yeah, Jones Day would put up the typical fights. But no, this is going to be governed by what's in the contract.

(Actually, the main problem from my perspective would be showing you were harmed by the breach.)
“It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people.” United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 68, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J. dissenting).

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:22 am

Bezdomni wrote:
Earthy Astrigent wrote:Next I dust off my database of socks (almost 2k) and send some of these sacrificial lambs into the fray for Operation: Bearpoke.
Ahhh, were those you? :D

I encouraged T&S on the Fram issue, which is strange, because I really felt they dropped the ball badly with BrillLyle, among others. One thing I found encouraging was the limited time period they blocked Fram for (another was that they seem to have always been way over the top). I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
No, as usual my mouth was running ahead of my fingers. I’m just lazy. Maybe soon. Tomorrow.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Ritchie333 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:08 pm

Looks like BrillLyle came back as 1940CStreet (T-C-L) and wrote some articles before getting blocked. No sockpuppetry case page, no details on the block. Usual Bbb23 (T-C-L) policy, it would seem.

I seem to recall Erika was a bit of a crank that didn't suffer fools gladly, but Wikipedia has no shortage of those and they don't get unceremoniously booted off.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by C&B » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:58 pm

Yes, Bbb23 Is absolutely Passive Agressive and A Hypocrite: He <u>bullies</u> the Ordinary to the New but is Scared of criticisms from his peers. That is why he does not engage in Policy Discussions : he does <u>not</u> want to put himself In Some Position of being shown Up :D
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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by C&B » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:00 pm

Ritchie333 wrote:they don't get unceremoniously booted off.
as you do show: They DO the bootings :D

Bbb23: Assbraindickfeatured.
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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Osborne » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:47 pm

Yep, Bbb23 operates from the shadows with super-secret checkuser evidence, and indefs whoever crosses his or his friends' path. Never answers to confrontations, and cowards out, if someone in power makes a question to him. He made more than enough policy violations in the recent years to get desysoped, and the wind of an ArbCom case breezed his skin, not long ago, but he walked unharmed.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by BrillLyle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:28 am

Ritchie333 wrote:Looks like BrillLyle came back as 1940CStreet (T-C-L) and wrote some articles before getting blocked. No sockpuppetry case page, no details on the block. Usual Bbb23 (T-C-L) policy, it would seem.

I seem to recall Erika was a bit of a crank that didn't suffer fools gladly, but Wikipedia has no shortage of those and they don't get unceremoniously booted off.
Link - before the block:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... 940CStreet

Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... /BrillLyle

One page is still up on Paul Cauthen, a white male singer-songwriter from Texas.

Surprise surprise the victim of my stupidity is a Nigerian actress’ page, Folake Olowofoyeku. Who is actually probably more notable than Cauthen as she’s costarring in the new Chuck Lorre CBS sitcom called Bob Hearts Abishola.

Racist? Sexist? Sigh. I don’t know. I just know that every time Ca2james is involved she’s like a cancer on the page, deleting content left and right. She doesn’t actually edit except to delete.

Love that she got an attaboy for sniffing 1940CStreet out. I’m sure that made her glow inside, wretched freak she is.

Egads.
Last edited by BrillLyle on Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by BrillLyle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:45 am

Bezdomni wrote: I believe there should be a way back for BrillLyle (who could be over the top too, as she has been humble enough to say) and will tell them that, if I ever get around to asking them to make wikiwho available for policy pages like WP:Harassment and WP:here, etc. (more context if this isn't clear) Does anyone have comments about people controlling policy pages?

I've been put off a little bit about getting back in touch with them because of the lack of reaction to the latest blog posts here, though.
As kind as you are to say this, I think that ship has sailed.

The obvious glee in this SPI is pretty telling.

I'm a damned good editor. I enjoy it a lot, wanted to improve content and was willing to donate a lot of time and energy to do so.

But no recourse, no options, no way back.

I wish these folks nothing but ill will. They negatively impact the content, and I would posit that most of them wouldn't know how to constructively improve or create a stub from scratch if it was the last thing they had to do. Bunch of putzes and a-holes.

I saw the Sanger video https://twitter.com/FullMeasureNews/sta ... 9809959936 and really agreed with him, that only reptilian, narcissistic - people who are able to play a certain kind of game in pure words

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:11 am

BrillLyle wrote:Surprise surprise the victim of my stupidity is a Nigerian actress’ page, Folake Olowofoyeku. Who is actually probably more notable than Cauthen as she’s costarring in the new Chuck Lorre CBS sitcom called Bob Hearts Abishola.
That's what you get for doing them a favor, I guess - it looks really bad (i.e., borderline-racist) that Ms. Olowofoyeku's name is the only one currently red-linked in the article on Bob Hearts Abishola (T-H-L). If it weren't for Shola Adewusi (T-H-L) being in there too, it would look really, really bad.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by BrillLyle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:28 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
BrillLyle wrote:Surprise surprise the victim of my stupidity is a Nigerian actress’ page, Folake Olowofoyeku. Who is actually probably more notable than Cauthen as she’s costarring in the new Chuck Lorre CBS sitcom called Bob Hearts Abishola.
That's what you get for doing them a favor, I guess - it looks really bad (i.e., borderline-racist) that Ms. Olowofoyeku's name is the only one currently red-linked in the article on Bob Hearts Abishola (T-H-L). If it weren't for Shola Adewusi (T-H-L) being in there too, it would look really, really bad.
I wish someone would challenge the wholesale deletion of Folake's page.

Even if they prune it back, everything was cited, and she's got enough credits -- even freaking appeared in David Bowie videos because she's a bass player -- to have at least a minimal stub up there.

I work with a woman from Nigeria and she was so excited that Folake and Gina Yashere (who co-created, co-writes and has a recurring role) are even on mainstream network TV to begin with. They speak Yoruba on the show, too. It's sort of amazing. It's not the best show, but it's not terrible, I don't think.

But really, it's a full season order of a Chuck Lorre TV show. He's a giant in TV. Folake is the lead opposite Billy Gardell. She's notable (aaaagh)!

I feel really bad that the page is gone. If anyone has ideas, I would be grateful.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Osborne » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:29 am

BrillLyle wrote:I'm a damned good editor. I enjoy it a lot, wanted to improve content and was willing to donate a lot of time and energy to do so.
That kind of values often result in a ban... Nothing personal, though. Wikipedia is no place for improvement, just for wikipolitics. And Bbb23 (middle name: unaccountability)... is the secret police.
Bbb23 wrote: Confirmed to each other and somewhere between Possilikely (a mix between possible and likely) and Likely to the master
Read: trust me, i'm the police.

Somewhat related: linkhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Office_ ... ns/09_2019[/link]
Appeals and transparency is the 2 major request.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by BrillLyle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:43 am

Osborne wrote:
BrillLyle wrote:I'm a damned good editor. I enjoy it a lot, wanted to improve content and was willing to donate a lot of time and energy to do so.
That kind of values often result in a ban... Nothing personal, though. Wikipedia is no place for improvement, just for wikipolitics. And Bbb23 (middle name: unaccountability)... is the secret police.
Bbb23 wrote: Confirmed to each other and somewhere between Possilikely (a mix between possible and likely) and Likely to the master
Read: trust me, i'm the police.

Somewhat related: linkhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Office_ ... ns/09_2019[/link]
Appeals and transparency is the 2 major request.
Yeah. I know. I was effed the minute I got invested. I'm proud of what I've contributed. My life will become less awful now I'm off Wiki (again), as it's not a healthy hobby for me at least. But yeah, hoisted by my own petard?!?

I was sort of shocked to see that up there like that on their Talk page. It was creepy and weird and very quickly done. I wonder how many other folks they do this type of group actions to on the regular. I mean, I obviously deserved it being a sock but if they do this type of organized bullying and attacking frequently, and do it so publicly, it's just further confirmation of the awfulness that is English Wikipedia editors.

Glad to see that's there. I don't have hope that a lot of good editors who have abandoned ship -- or have been pushed off like myself -- would come back. They would have to roll out a fucking red carpet at this point. I hate them all. I mean that. Don't say it lightly.

Ca2james has had cancer, is on disability in real life and doesn't work (obvs). I'm okay with her completely disappearing forever. I don't say that lightly. I know what I'm saying here. I've had a rough couple of years in my family and I don't have pity or compassion or more focusedly patience anymore. Especially not for someone so screwed up who wields "power" like this. Gets off on destroying content and filibustering with WIKIRulez and then says, oh yeah, let's bring in a Third Opinion (one of her thug editor friends to agree with her). Her toxicity hurts people, and she doesn't give a crap. I wish her nothing good.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:03 am

Seeing those two and Bishonen giggling like a schoolgirls is galling. Bishonen is another banhammer power tripper.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:01 am

Go ahead and create another sock. Fuck em. Just use the SPI as a guide on how to avoid getting caught again. FWIW, rarely use edit summaries. I never do unless I’m trying to piss someone off.

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Unread post by BrillLyle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:21 am

Earthy Astringent wrote:Go ahead and create another sock. Fuck em. Just use the SPI as a guide on how to avoid getting caught again. FWIW, rarely use edit summaries. I never do unless I’m trying to piss someone off.
LOL. F em for sure....

Yeah, was sort of dumb and got lazy with my editing style, which is pretty distinct.

Now I have the laundry list to know how not to edit, Ca2james did me a favor.

Thanks all. Seriously. I'm pretty tweaked / angry / frustrated / annoyed. And as I said, feel terrible about the deletion of the actress's page. Blargh.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:48 am

Hang in there, Erika. There is no fucking way you should be blocked.

Arbcom lurkers, esp. GW: FIX THIS SHIT.

WMF banning Erika was a far bigger transgression on community self-governance than was their partial-banning of Fram.

Get on the back channel and YELL.

RfB

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by MrErnie » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:20 am

It was pretty silly to file at ANI against Ca2James if you wanted to stay hidden.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Ritchie333 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:09 am

I have restored Folake Olowofoyeku (T-H-L), as WP:G5 (T-H-L) says "This applies to pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and that have no substantial edits by others." It doesn't matter that the "other substantial edits" were by Ca2james; if another editor has done work on it, G5 does not apply. The marking as reviewed by Koavf probably qualifies too.

So that's Bbb23 unilaterally deleting an article against policy. Whoever's filing their Arbcom desysop case, you can add that in your arsenal. I told them to stop gloating over their block (perhaps they went onto IRC and bragged about it to their friends) and was promptly reverted. Typical Bbb23 behaviour I believe; ban everyone with a "checkuser block" (which really means a "fuck you block") and revert anyone who questions your motives. What a cockwomble.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Alex Shih » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:08 am

Ritchie333 wrote:I have restored Folake Olowofoyeku (T-H-L), as WP:G5 (T-H-L) says "This applies to pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and that have no substantial edits by others." It doesn't matter that the "other substantial edits" were by Ca2james; if another editor has done work on it, G5 does not apply. The marking as reviewed by Koavf probably qualifies too.

So that's Bbb23 unilaterally deleting an article against policy. Whoever's filing their Arbcom desysop case, you can add that in your arsenal. I told them to stop gloating over their block (perhaps they went onto IRC and bragged about it to their friends) and was promptly reverted. Typical Bbb23 behaviour I believe; ban everyone with a "checkuser block" (which really means a "fuck you block") and revert anyone who questions your motives. What a cockwomble.
Interesting. If you look at the userpage tagging, you will know the results of the check. While it's funny to see JzG (T-C-L) (who have no idea how SPI works) trying to mess around with Bbb23's tagging, there's something more telling here: Bbb23 will confirm two accounts even when there are substantial questions (their tendency to jump to conclusions has been complained at before), and for them to place "{{Sockpuppet|USERNAME|blocked}}" instead of "{{Sockpuppet|USERNAME|confirmed}}" means that technical data is at most, Possible, although I feel it's even less given Bbb23's arbitrary views in their findings at times. Combined with the minimal behavioral evidence presented (with some similarities), this results in the "suspected sock" tag, which IMO is a tag that can easily misused/abused.

[edit] I saw the SPI page afterwards, and I guess it's close to what I was guessing. And it's funny how Bbb23 often ignores direct questions on their talk page or in this case, responds by reverting/edit summary; isn't this explicitly frowned against?

Honestly though, this is yet again Arbcom's double standard. And I agree with Ritchie, this is even worse than Fram; the account is a "suspected sock", how the fuck does G5 apply here when it's not confirmed? Making dubious block over a suspected account, and then quickly deleting all of their contributions (many of them legitimate topics) knowingly citing inapplicable policy is textbook example being overzealous.
Last edited by Alex Shih on Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:19 am

Ritchie333 wrote:I have restored Folake Olowofoyeku (T-H-L), as WP:G5 (T-H-L) says "This applies to pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and that have no substantial edits by others."
Well, that was very decent of you, regardless of what WP:G5 says.

:hats-off:

Hopefully Ms. Olowofoyeku will appreciate it too!

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by turnedworm » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:52 am

Randy from Boise wrote:Hang in there, Erika. There is no fucking way you should be blocked.

Arbcom lurkers, esp. GW: FIX THIS SHIT.

WMF banning Erika was a far bigger transgression on community self-governance than was their partial-banning of Fram.

Get on the back channel and YELL.

RfB
Without commenting on the merits of the ban- There are levels of block / ban.

1) en.wp blocked by an admin
2) en.wp blocked by an admin and no one willing to unblock after discussion
3) en.wp banned by community
4) en.wp banned by Arbcom
5) globally blocked
6) WMF banned

Arbcom and individual arbs have no power past 4. Fram was a special case - WMF tried to put in something between 4 and 5 and the community went into uproar. BrillLyle is a 6.

As I understand it, to get to 6, they go through many layers of internal bureaucracy, including regular sign off by CEO. We have no backchannel to overturn that.

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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:03 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Ritchie333 wrote:I have restored Folake Olowofoyeku (T-H-L), as WP:G5 (T-H-L) says "This applies to pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and that have no substantial edits by others."
Well, that was very decent of you, regardless of what WP:G5 says.

:hats-off:

Hopefully Ms. Olowofoyeku will appreciate it too!
It is a small step towards reducing the "gender gap". Acting and popular music are areas where there is no shortage of notable females, as long as nobody comes along to disrupt article creation. Of course, if BrillLyle were unbanned she could do more to reduce the gap, but alas that seems a very remote prospect. The WMF aren't going to admit that they were wrong if the only reason is to improve the encyclopaedia.
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Re: My name is BrillLyle. My voice is my passport (I'm banne

Unread post by Osborne » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:21 am

Ritchie333 wrote: I told them to stop gloating over their block
Oh, the cheekiness of citing Bbb23's lover to frown upon them :rotfl: :evilgrin:
Bbb23 wrote:your comment is inaccurate, irrelevant and unhelpful
I don't like it, so I throw 3 false mischaracterizations at it, because none would stand on its own. Tl;dr: I censored it.
turnedworm wrote:As I understand it, to get to 6, they go through many layers of internal bureaucracy, including regular sign off by CEO. We have no backchannel to overturn that.
Anything is possible. If there is a will, there is a way. WP is not a bureaucracy (so says the legend).