Two more global bans

Unread post by **tarantino** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:21 pm

Thekohser and Graaf Statler

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php? ... d=16617590

milowent · Unread post by **milowent** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:36 pm

tarantino wrote:Thekohser and Graaf Statler

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php? ... d=16617590

Do they provide any explanation for why the ban is applied? I see there are only 19 people (accounts) to have reached this lofty status of being ostracized worldwide

Unread post by **tarantino** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:36 pm

milowent wrote:
Do they provide any explanation for why the ban is applied? I see there are only 19 people (accounts) to have reached this lofty status of being ostracized worldwide

I'm pretty sure they never explain why a person is banned to anybody outside of staff.

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:41 am

Greg was probably banned because, like the sun coming up every day - whether you want it to or not - he is an eternal verity.

Tarc · Unread post by **Tarc** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:54 pm

So a Wall of Shame that lumps a noted Wikipedia critic alongside degenerate slime like Beta and Demiurge. Surely that was unintentional.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:58 pm

Tarc wrote:So a Wall of Shame that lumps a noted Wikipedia critic alongside degenerate slime like Beta and Demiurge. Surely that was unintentional.

My brother has always gotten a chuckle out of the fact that, at times, the Wikimedia Foundation has seemed more tolerant of child porn distributors than of me.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:49 pm

I wish there was a way we could ban individuals from WMF.

It does make more sense than a system-wide ban of Kohs.

RfB

Moral Hazard · Unread post by **Moral Hazard** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:16 pm

Banning Kohs helps the WMF defend itself it anybody sues it for defamation, alleging that global bans are tantamount to accusations of child pornography/molestation.

Rogol Domedonfors · Unread post by **Rogol Domedonfors** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:44 pm

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll just remind those subject to a WMF ban of any kind that, if the ban has been communicated to any chapters or affilated organisations in the EU, then the subjects are entitled to obtain the records relating to them personally, whether or not they are themselves located in or citizens of those countries. A Data Subject Access request might prove fruitful.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:05 pm

Zoloft wrote:Greg was probably banned because, like the sun coming up every day - whether you want it to or not - he is an eternal verity.

The sun also rises, and the sun goes down,
And hastens to the place where it arose.
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full;
To the place whence the rivers come,
Thence they return again.
All things are full of labour;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor the ear filled with hearing.
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"?
It has already been in ancient times before us.

That sounds like a good description of Wikipedia.

greyed.out.fields · Unread post by **greyed.out.fields** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:30 am

Poetlister wrote:
Zoloft wrote:Greg was probably banned because, like the sun coming up every day - whether you want it to or not - he is an eternal verity.

The sun also rises (T-H-L), and the sun goes down,
And hastens to the place where it arose.
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
All the rivers run (T-H-L) into the sea, yet the sea is not full;
To the place whence the rivers come,
Thence they return again.
All things are full of labour;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor the ear filled with hearing.
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
That sounds like a good description of Wikipedia.

I think 1:17-18 is better.

Ha Qoheleth wrote: And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

List of books with titles taken from Ecclesiates (T-H-L) doesn't exist, but definitely could.

• A time to kill, (T-H-L) and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; (3:3)
• Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth (T-H-L)? (3:21)
• The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth (T-H-L). (7:4)

And so on. At least 16, by my count.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:46 am

Moral Hazard wrote:Banning Kohs helps the WMF defend itself it anybody sues it for defamation, alleging that global bans are tantamount to accusations of child pornography/molestation.

That's a very good point, though I doubt it's what they were thinking when they added him to their little shit-list. And to some extent it works the other way around too, in that people alleged to have committed serious moral offenses in/on WMF venues can more easily claim to simply be "critics," targeted for having dared to say mean things about the WMF.

Obviously they won't (and shouldn't) reveal what the more recent listees are alleged to have done, but these latest two additions do seem to suggest that the inclusion bar has been lowered. This "Graaf Statler" dude's main offense seems to have been that he publicly claimed that the WMF chapter in the Netherlands was a total boondoggle, along with all of its paid staff. I'm sure he was extremely irritating and insulting in the process, and I'm willing to accept that there was probably more going on behind the scenes, but based on what we can actually see you'd think a regular ol' site-ban would be sufficient in a case like that, even for them.

Anroth · Unread post by **Anroth** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:31 pm

Rogol Domedonfors wrote:At the risk of repeating myself, I'll just remind those subject to a WMF ban of any kind that, if the ban has been communicated to any chapters or affilated organisations in the EU, then the subjects are entitled to obtain the records relating to them personally, whether or not they are themselves located in or citizens of those countries. A Data Subject Access request might prove fruitful.

A point I have tried to make to various people when they insist on doing business through *mailing lists*.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:33 pm

My favorite part of my ban notice was the typo in the message (pointing me to the wrong domain in an e-mail address, should I want to learn more about my ban). James Alexander was sweet enough to say "thank you" when I pointed out the typo to him.

They're so professional there in expensive San Francisco!

Malik Shabazz · Unread post by **Malik Shabazz** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:08 pm

thekohser wrote:
Tarc wrote:So a Wall of Shame that lumps a noted Wikipedia critic alongside degenerate slime like Beta and Demiurge. Surely that was unintentional.
My brother has always gotten a chuckle out of the fact that, at times, the Wikimedia Foundation has seemed more tolerant of child porn distributors than of me.

Only at times?

Earthy Astringent · Unread post by **Earthy Astringent** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:43 am

thekohser wrote:My favorite part of my ban notice was the typo in the message

We're not surprised.

Kingsindian · Unread post by **Kingsindian** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:37 am

Earthy Astringent wrote:
thekohser wrote:My favorite part of my ban notice was the typo in the message
We're not surprised.

Rogol Domedonfors · Unread post by **Rogol Domedonfors** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:24 am

The fact that the WMF refuse to discuss the reason for a ban, even with the subject, could be played agains them. If it were to become current that some banned user had in fact been working to expose financial malfeasance by the WMF, or one of its subsidiaries, and that they had been banned to keep them from talking to disaffected staff, or victims, then the WMF would, presumably, be unable to refute that. Or if they do make a public pronouncement on the reason for a ban, then the ban subjects can ask again for details of the reasons on the grounds that WMF are now discussing them.

Rogol Domedonfors · Unread post by **Rogol Domedonfors** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:38 pm

Followup: Alternatively, you could put it about that a banned user had been subverting Wikipedia in the interests of a foreign power. It's all good.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:This "Graaf Statler" dude's main offense seems to have been that he publicly claimed that the WMF chapter in the Netherlands was a total boondoggle, along with all of its paid staff. I'm sure he was extremely irritating and insulting in the process, and I'm willing to accept that there was probably more going on behind the scenes, but based on what we can actually see you'd think a regular ol' site-ban would be sufficient in a case like that, even for them.

I believe that Mr. Statler's analysis of his own situation is found here:

https://pediahoedblog.wordpress.com/201 ... wikipedia/

Either that, or someone writing about him with his close assistance. Not sure... it's in Dutch.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:15 am

He makes the probably very valid point that the proceedings against him were as sensible as Lewis Carroll's description of the trial of the Knave of Hearts. However, the latter ended with Alice up-ending the jury box. (Yes, I know, that's by A. L. Bowley from the Centennial Edition, not the original illustrstion.)

Rogol Domedonfors · Unread post by **Rogol Domedonfors** » Mon May 01, 2017 7:31 pm

In another thread it was suggested that it might now be a criminal offence for banned users to attempt to access the site. Is that decision still in force?

Unread post by **tarantino** » Tue May 02, 2017 2:46 am

Rogol Domedonfors wrote:In another thread it was suggested that it might now be a criminal offence for banned users to attempt to access the site. Is that decision still in force?

Russavia was banned more than two years ago. He's made hundreds of thousands of edits since then. Leucosticte‎, who was banned the same day as Russavia, also continues to edit. The foundation doesn't do anything other than lock their new accounts when they're noticed.

For more background on Leucosticte‎, see last month's Washington post story, He threatened to kill the president. Now he is seeking public office. He's also been discussed extensively here.

Kelly Martin · Unread post by **Kelly Martin** » Tue May 02, 2017 3:25 am

Rogol Domedonfors wrote:In another thread it was suggested that it might now be a criminal offence for banned users to attempt to access the site. Is that decision still in force?

Not without sending a formal cease-and-desist by some means of communication that provides proof beyond reasonable doubt that the individual in question actually received it. An email notification of a "ban" is almost certainly not enough.

However, if there is anyone that the WMF would seek criminal charges against for editing through a ban, it's Greg Kohs. He's clearly far more dangerous than all of the child molesters, domestic stalkers, or other sexual predators than they routinely let edit. Because he says things that hurt Jimmy's feelings, and we must not allow that.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Tue May 02, 2017 3:26 am

tarantino wrote:For more background on Leucosticte‎, see last month's Washington post story, He threatened to kill the president. Now he is seeking public office. He's also been discussed extensively here.

Let's call him Sarsaparilla , that's a much better handle.

He is the most.............ummm.....................intense Libertarian on the planet.

I won't say he's not a kook, to be sure, but he is also unquestionably a political dissident out to make a point.

I support him, speaking as a civil libertarian, if not his personal politics or his precise actions.

He's a canary in the coal mine.

RfB

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:28 pm

Kelly Martin wrote:However, if there is anyone that the WMF would seek criminal charges against for editing through a ban, it's Greg Kohs. He's clearly far more dangerous than all of the child molesters, domestic stalkers, or other sexual predators than they routinely let edit. Because he says things that hurt Jimmy's feelings, and we must not allow that.

Not to mention his intention to shoot Jimmy.

Ming · Unread post by **Ming** » Tue May 02, 2017 9:46 pm

Randy from Boise wrote: He's a canary in the coal mine.

Not a cuckoo in the coal mine?

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:27 am

I am Graaf Statler. First, sorry for my poor English. In the first place, I was never I was never rude. In the second place I left Wikipedia-NL early 2016, and did after my Global Lock, what was one big lie a you can see till begin April 2017 some minor edits. Out of the bleu I got a email from mister James Alexander I was Global blockt, without any reason. And aldo I sended several polite mails, I didn't get any answer why. The reason is total unclear to me. Alexander only told me that I had broken rules of the Foundation and that's it.

But it is a great honor the be one of the few global users. Last year I only did three ore for minor edids a day on a complete unimportant project, Wikiquote_NL with three users, now zero. , never did one edit what was not integer, and who had left the Wikipedia projects for one month. And I am not a sockpopplayer. I am a older integer gentleman.

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:47 am

(My written English is really s.h.i.t. Hope you understand what I writhe) By the way, I was never a Review Member, I was a minor editer who sometimes in a calm way wikimedia and wikipedia criticized, before I was Global lockt. And sometimes in a funny way. And now I am a kind of wiki-Mafia bosses. A great honor, much better han the Hall of Fame, but very strange.

Bezdomni · Unread post by **Bezdomni** » Wed May 03, 2017 12:10 pm

Hi Graaf. I am fairly sure that if you wrote a more complete message to Wikipediocracy (perhaps in one of the secret sub-forums) in Dutch, someone could be found to translate it. Perhaps Drmies is a member here, for example.

Unfortunately, writing in English without links may make people think the account is a joe job (not sure how to translate this into Dutch: basically usurping someone's identity). Claiming you are an integer is all well and good, but writing up an essay would help everyone better understand the array of issues involved in your string being popped off the Wikipedia stack.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Wed May 03, 2017 1:22 pm

Bezdomni wrote:...writing up an essay would help everyone better understand ...

I'm about 90% sure that it's going to be "the same old story". An editor (probably justifiably) feels that administrators are suppressing his right to modify Wikipedia content in a way that follows policy, but does not adhere to the "party line" of the administrators. Things escalate quickly, and soon the editor is unmasking the ulterior motives of the administrator corps, which "outs" some administrators, and now they feel that their "health and safety" are threatened, and thus the ban and global shunning.

So, probably not a major need to write an essay, unless that would float Graaf's boat.

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Wed May 03, 2017 1:30 pm

I understand. But I don't have the intention to become a regular guest here, this topic is about me. If you wants to know what happend, try to find someone who can explane ore cn translate what is written in the link thecosher gave to you. And you will find out that not only Wikimedia-NL is a complete boondoggle (Nice word), but wikipedia-nl too.

And if you don't believe me, read this (or try to find someone who know Dutch) blog about the the of catastrofe of the GLAM project of the famous Rijksmuzeum. (Dutch) Like every project of Wikimedia-Nl ends up in a disaster.
And off course the foundation knows about this. But...Wikipedia got the Erasmusprijs, is't it? In the Netherlands.

https://edoornbusch.wordpress.com/

Bezdomni · Unread post by **Bezdomni** » Wed May 03, 2017 2:25 pm

Sometimes being a crappy reader is a good thing, I'd missed the link above, but am glad to see the one you just added.

The Adversary · Unread post by **The Adversary** » Wed May 03, 2017 7:23 pm

Graaf Statler wrote:I understand. But I don't have the intention to become a regular guest here, this topic is about me. If you wants to know what happend, try to find someone who can explane ore cn translate what is written in the link thecosher gave to you. And you will find out that not only Wikimedia-NL is a complete boondoggle (Nice word), but wikipedia-nl too.

And if you don't believe me, read this (or try to find someone who know Dutch) blog about the the of catastrofe of the GLAM project of the famous Rijksmuzeum. (Dutch) Like every project of Wikimedia-Nl ends up in a disaster.
And off course the foundation knows about this. But...Wikipedia got the Erasmusprijs, is't it? In the Netherlands.

https://edoornbusch.wordpress.com/

<edit> My mistake, Graaf Statler is not edoornbusch...

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Wed May 03, 2017 7:53 pm

Sorry for the confusion, that is not my blog, it was only to give a expression I was not the one who had serious criticism of Wikipedia and Wikimedia-NL. I only wrote some not controversial articles long forgotten professors, Churches, toy trains, en Greek politics.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker ... trolelijst
I was not extremely irritating and insulting, because block wonder CaAl immediately block you, especially when you say something wrong about Wikimedia.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciaal:Bijdragen/CaAl

So, the question was, why is Graaf Statler global blockt. To tell you the truth I have no idea. I Ieft wikipedia for a year, and I left Wikiquote for a mounth. So, it feels like you get an email that you won the Nobel Prize after your have resigned. It's all a big mystery to me.

Bezdomni · Unread post by **Bezdomni** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:37 pm

My guess is that it's less because you reverted Chewing Tinfoil here than because of the sockpuppets? "This & that" needs exploration, but even translated I'm still struggling to see the big picture. (The edits I looked through quickly on V's page looked reasonable.)

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:22 pm

I don't think so. Nobody ever criticized my work. Until this block request came out of the blue. My work would be copyvio.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... _Statler_2

My work was not copyvio, but Natuur12 blocked me OT, and asked for a Global lock, based on his OT block.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward ... af_Statler

Earthy Astringent · Unread post by **Earthy Astringent** » Thu May 04, 2017 6:25 am

Graaf Statler wrote:I am a older integer gentleman.

Not making fun of your English, but I can only hope you meant to say you are an older, rationale gentleman.

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 04, 2017 7:58 am

......And one of I wrote article I wrote was about my father, a professors English language and Old English literature...........

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 04, 2017 8:06 am

I have a form of dyslexia. So, my school career was not a success and I'm a craftsman. I learned English Greek and German from practice but actually can't write these Languages.Only for this reason cross-wiki abuse is complete nonsens!

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 04, 2017 10:39 am

Why not. MoiraMoira already thrown my identity around and I'm proud of him.

This was my father: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Vleeskruijer

Bezdomni · Unread post by **Bezdomni** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:02 am

Earthy Astringent wrote:
Graaf Statler wrote:I am a older integer gentleman.

Not making fun of your English, but I can only hope you meant to say you are an older, rationale gentleman.

Seriously. intègre / integriste / integer (whole number, nombre entier) / integral / integration.... it's good to think outside your comfort lexicon from time to time.

But I'm guessing you make mistakes on purpose to see if GK will correct you?

I think I was reading in Jemelniak that Dutch Wikipedia was the most heavily edited WP per capita in the projects. Is this true?

ps fascinating work has been done on OE/ME syntax in recent years (generative perspective)

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:44 am

I am not a tipical Wikipedian. In fackt, I don't know much about the technical site. The only thing I did was writing sometimes a article, and many times I told them that the way they were writing a encyclopedia was a dead end. That's all.
Wikipedia-NL is very good in lagre numbers, and tecnical matters. But almost nobody is able to write a article. Fot instace, most Wikimedia members and Wikipedias in recedence never wrote one single article or are even not active on Wikipedia. Or as a kind of policimen, to give you a block of you say something they don't like.
Thats the reason most activety's of Wikimedia fail, they have no idea!

Almost every article is written by a bot. Many times it's copyvio, but they don't care about copvio. Wikipedia-NL is dominated by a small group of users, united in Wikimedia-NL, and if you are not one of them, well, look at my blogpost what happens.
But international they have great fame, because of there technical work I suppose.
But there one Wiki is a enorme mess. A real boondoggle.

I am sure the foundation knows about this. But I think tey are afraid to admit this, because it will hurt there imago. And that explances the supid accentions against me, because it is childish. This the way children acts.
But most of them are autistic, so I think that the reason for this soap.

And I don't care about there blocks and locks and other nonsens, because I am am living in the world of handcraftman and not in the world of would be interlectuals!

So, that was a lot of English, hope you understand it!

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Thu May 04, 2017 6:49 pm

Earthy Astringent wrote:Not making fun of your English, but I can only hope you meant to say you are an older, rationale gentleman.

I'm not making fun of your English, but it's bad form to make a mistake when correcting someone else. You mean "rational", not "rationale", and he may have meant that he has integrity.

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 04, 2017 7:24 pm

Make as much fun of my English as you like, I don't care. The people here seems to me much more normale and friendly than the bunch of idiots I met on Wikipedia till now. Like I told you, I learnt English, German and Greek in practice, and I understand what people are saying, and I hope they understand me. That's all.

And Wikipedia is not a way of living for me, it was only that I fount this topic in google, and that I wanted to tell my site of the story, and that's is all.
For me both global blocks of my college Wiki-Nobel Price winner, theokosher and me, will always remain a mystery, and I think I have to live with that fact.
It is really a experience! Out of the bleu you became a wiki celebrity, without any explanation! Questions? What questions. We don't answer questions!

By the way, when is the opening of the new branch of Wikimedia in Pyongyang?

Earthy Astringent · Unread post by **Earthy Astringent** » Thu May 04, 2017 7:53 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Earthy Astringent wrote:Not making fun of your English, but I can only hope you meant to say you are an older, rationale gentleman.
I'm not making fun of your English, but it's bad form to make a mistake when correcting someone else. You mean "rational", not "rationale", and he may have meant that he has integrity.

It's bad form to correct a softball left for Greg.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Thu May 04, 2017 8:18 pm

Earthy Astringent wrote:
Poetlister wrote:
Earthy Astringent wrote:Not making fun of your English, but I can only hope you meant to say you are an older, rationale gentleman.
I'm not making fun of your English, but it's bad form to make a mistake when correcting someone else. You mean "rational", not "rationale", and he may have meant that he has integrity.

It's bad form to correct a softball left for Greg.

I mean, seriously, right? I feel so robbed now. Thanks a whole lot, Poetlister.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:06 pm

Received this message from Wikimedia.org last night:

Any reasonable person would conclude that my SanFranBan has been lifted, and I am welcome back on Wikimedia projects.

Either that, or I have a valid claim of either harassment/taunting or entrapment. They want me to violate their previous instructions, so that they can take me to court, right?

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:48 pm

Ingotbstrange emails they ware waiting fot my hext sokpop. A kind of invitation to post on wikiquote again. Don't worry, they are a bit simple. And they look like adulds, but act like children 12 years old.

Graaf Statler · Unread post by **Graaf Statler** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:51 pm

Mhhhh a I pad is not a succes... I got strange emals they are waiting for my next sockpuppet... sorry... But I think this is the new strategy of Mr. Alexander.