Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
kołdry
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:34 am

I'd like to share some of the stories behind that language barrier. Is a long story after gathering all the details and I must apologize for being wordy. I will try my best to be neutral. Should you have any concerns about translation feel free to ask me.
If you have difficulty identifying Chinese names you can replace the Chinese names with its Pinyin form.

守望者爱孟=Shouwangzheaimeng
乌拉跨氪=Wulakuake
范=Fan
中华爱国阵线=Zhonghuaaiguozhenxian
追迹未来=Zhuijiweilai
金牌雄鹰=Jinpaixiongying
嘀嘀嘀=Dididi


TL;DR:The Chinese WP is just like English WP where everything become less iedalistic and more realistic over time. The flow and natural selection of editors made WP less free encyclopedia and more Machiavellian arena. Clashes between different ideological groups are inevitable.

-------------

The Chinese WP missed the best opportunity to accumulate editors from China (Which has 90% of the Chinese speaking population) because the Blocking of GFW. This had lead to a proportion of editors that does not match the proportion of population in real life. Generally, the editors from China are mainly pro-communist and editors from out of China are mainly anti-communist (There are many other subdivisions of factions of but I just assume there are two for simplicity), and in the past years those two sides are in relative balance. The smaller size of Chinese community thanks to the GFW also made the Chinese bureaucracy simpler, with no ArbCom because there were too few admins.
However, with China's growth in national power in the recent years and the increase of Chinese people's confidence about their regime, plus the spread of methods to circumvent GFW, The balance between pro-communist and anti-communist in editor population would probably be no more. And this is what I believe will cause a wide range of conflict in Chinese WP in its process, like that in the case of "martyrdom" of 守望者爱孟.

守望者爱孟 is a Chinese editor from Shanghai, ideologically he is kind of more pro-communist. It is worth noting that supporting 守望者爱孟 is not the same as being pro-communist as you will see in some of the cases, and I will use terms "pro-守望者爱孟" and "pro-communist" that I feel most precise. His sometimes fierce disposition and lack in communication skills had resulted in a long-lasting controversy within the Chinese community.

On February 2014 守望者爱孟 accused an admin AddisWang for "corruption on WMF grants" and get banned for personal attack.

As I looked back in the history I also saw in March 2013 守望者爱孟 even kindly greeted AddisWang as a newcomer(https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... d=25268671). I still can't find a rational explanation to how the conflict ever started. At similar time AddisWang used to express contempt towards the toxic environment of Chinese WP almost one year before the controversy ever started:
The environment of Chinese was broken by those who argue without logic, clash without rationalism, and judge without subjectivty. That kind of "wikilogic" is prevalent on WP, and whenever such conduct is exposed to light those people would just move on to other topics. And they will beat their opponents with their experience in dogfighting if anyone ever got trapped [by their logic].

Original Chinese Quote:中文维基百科的讨论环境就是被那些争论的时候“毫无逻辑”、碰壁的时候“蛮不讲理”、举证的时候“强词夺理”以及判断是否的时候“全凭主观”的人给玩坏了。所谓的“维基逻辑”横行其道,被人拆穿又绕开话题。对手一旦落于圈套,在用自己的耍无赖的经验打败对手。--AddisWang (留言) 2013年4月18日 (四) 07:59 (UTC)).

Source:https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Addi ... 6%E8%AF%AD
You can find AddisWang's contribs and grant records on metawiki, which is mostly English. AddisWang is still quite active to this day, running many grants and projects. After looking into his records I find no signs of major corruption, although he did do some project that didn't end well like the Wikiquiz App project https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/The_Wikiquiz. Still, any imperfections can potentially be a reason for a drama. Someone had tried to raise discussion about the factual disputes about AddisWang in May 2016, but the focus of the community soon drifted to other topics and there was no concensus.

守望者爱孟 then accused the admin(s) for abuse and the conflict escalated even to somewhere out of WP, the ban was also extended to permaban in the process.

In an article Behind a ban of a Wikipedian and edit war on Chinese Wikipedia: (infzm.com/content/98858) Southern Weekly covered the ban of Edouardlicn (An older pro-communist guy who had been controversially banned for "sockpuppet abuse" and "disruptive behaviour" in June 2013, but people are still suspecting some of his socks pop up over time and he is exerting influence outside WP) and 守望者爱孟. Some Wikipedians expressed doubt about some claims in the report, for example the claim that 守望者爱孟 had considered reporting his issue to some people related to communist party and take further actions. Two years later while in the present conflict 乌拉跨氪 uploaded a picture(now deleted) claiming a quote from 守望者爱孟 that he "reported to the party"(Original in Chinese:已上报上级党委). But other Wikipedians doubted whether the picture is forged and/or whether the claimed quote does imply an intent to invite communist party influence from out-of-Wikipedia. After two years there is still no concensus about those factual questions, although there might be in the near future if the pro-守望者爱孟 faction grow strong enough to overcome opposition.

There was the first vote for De-adminship of 乌拉跨氪, who was involved in the ban of 守望者爱孟, in late Aug 2014(https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... 8%E6%B0%AA). The vote is instigated by User:中华爱国阵线, who is mainly a supporter of 守望者爱孟. The nominators even added some bans of the anti-communist people (like Hanteng, Chinuan12623,Wildcursive) to the rationale to bolster their claim that 乌拉跨氪 is abusive. Ironically, 2-3(which could have changed the outcome if they voted for the other side) pro-communist editors supported 守望者爱孟 two years later voted against de-adminship at that time. One of the even said :
oppose the part of the proposal relating to the ban of Hanteng,chinuan[User:Chinuan12623]and Wildcursive [an irrelevant sentence related to his conflict with another editor] No admin would be willing to work if people complain about 'abuse' and 'dictatorship' every time admin takes action".
Original Chinese quote:反对提出申请者关于对Hanteng、chinuan、Wildcursive三人的封禁质疑,另外抗议楼上那位睁眼瞎的说的“誣告的化學君才達3RR”(要不要我数给你看?)。还是那句话——“管理员一干活他们就说‘滥权’、‘独裁’,这样下去有个屁管理员敢出头啊。”)

My best guess is at that time they believed that 乌拉跨氪 pissed off anti-communist editors more than he did to 守望者爱孟, and it was better for their interest to keep 乌拉跨氪 in power.

The vote result was 30 to 35 and 乌拉跨氪 was not de-admined.

One of the instigators User:中华爱国阵线, was permabanned for "sockpuppet abuse" shortly after the vote, although the actual sock is unspecified(probably an IP?) A Checkuser stated in the appeal that the sock came from a mobile phone and 中华爱国阵线 was alleged to circumvent detection. The conflict cooled down for about one and a half years after then.

During the nearly silent one and half years supporters of 守望者爱孟 circulated claims in and out of WP that 守望者爱孟 was not a vandal but a persecuted individual who did numerous hard work in promoting and expanding the Wikipedian community. They also often emphasize ideas like"the persecution from those abusive group of people who held power in WP" "AddisWang and his cabal had voted against an admin nominee in the last minute to make sure he didn't get elected" "AddisWang is a Ningxia guy who falsely claim to be Shanghai, and he is actually persecuting the Shanghai community" etc. While some people regarded those as just revenge speech, I don't have much information about the validity or the implications of those claims. And be ware that each individual claim should be evaluated on a case-to case basis: the validity of one claim does not prove another.

In February 2016 some editors raised the issue of 守望者爱孟's ban again, they even gathered in 守望者爱孟's talk page and 守望者爱孟 himself filed an appeal. An admin Lanwi1 proposed that should admit his mistake first and declined the appeal. Supporters of 守望者爱孟 said that 守望者爱孟 had tried to admit his mistake two years ago but the admin's just won't approve it.

In April 2016 when admin and oversight 范 had made some admin actions in favor of anti-communist side, it soon become the Sarajevo of another large-scale conflict. And 范's immature response may have added to the rage of the pro-communist side. 范 was nominated for de-adminship The outcome was 46:46 and the de-adminship was unsuccessful.

Short after that de-adminship vote 范 was briefly banned for "sockpuppet abuse", the alleged sock(although not publicly stated because CUs cannot tell the exact IP address of a user) seemed to be an IP address from Guangzhou, But from my knowledge about past cases of possible impersonation, I speculate that this could be just someone else in Guangzhou, although current CU methods of simply examining IP address and useragents probably won't tell the difference. The people who worked against 范 asked for a emergency de-adminship for that "sockpuppet abuse", but the bureaucrats took no action and that proposal went dead.

Although the de-adminship of 范 was unsuccessful, the 守望者爱孟's supporters had definitely seen its growth of power. In the following months, they tried to challenge the status quo frequently.

In June 2016 Bureaucrat, Checkuser and admin Jimmy Xu permabanned two supporters of 守望者爱孟 User:追迹未来 for "personal attack on 范" and another user Galaxyharrylion for" making threats to me about 追迹未来's ban" (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... 4.E7.90.86). A few weeks after those ban were revoked by other admins on the basis of AGF and "another chance" while those two guys pledged to follow the civility policies. Galaxyharrylion had been active as a leading figure in the pro-守望者爱孟 campaign.

In August 2016 pro-守望者爱孟 guys made proposals like to limiting the ban to activities occured within Wikipedia, which if approved, will undermine part of the rationale for 守望者爱孟's ban.

In August 2016 they also managed to startup a vote for a Award for Promoting Wikipedia for 守望者爱孟, although most of his supporters didn't say much about how 守望者爱孟 promoted Wikipedia outside WP, but focused more on repeating the claims of "he is under persecution". But anyway the vote got passed. The one admin who endorsed the result even acknowledged the claim that "守望者爱孟 is under persecution" in his speech of endorsement, which had resulted in some more controversy. Albeit such controversy, it looked like they are one more step closer to revoking the ban of 守望者爱孟.

Some other minor figure's stories were also interesting: User:金牌雄鹰 had been permabanned for sockpuppet abuse in late 2015 and his appeal had been declined. His own statements suggests he might let Another user 嘀嘀嘀 used his account. But admin reviewed his case and determined there was not enough evidence for sockpuppetry and revoked his ban in July 2016. For various reasons he also joined the pro-守望者爱孟 side.

User:Hanteng was also an important and eloquent figure who disliked Edouardlicn and 守望者爱孟 and believes in "Edouardlicn and his cabal" as much as the 守望者爱孟 supporters do to "AddisWang and his cabal".

--------------------

What had I learned from those controversies on Chinese WP?

1.On Wikipedia "fact" means "the idea most people voted for", and sometimes plus endorsement of few admins. Things get complicated when the admin and the majority of common users have diffenent opinions, and even more complicated when neither side is willing to make compromise.

2.WP is not about who's right, but about who has more power. And power=number of people*number of banhammer*time. If you don't have any of those 3, your opinion would most likely be neglected.

3.Many people have the time and resolve to dig into history to find out who you are, just like I digged into the history of Chinese WP. I have already seen supporters of 守望者爱孟 dig out AddisWang's info, and I think I should take caution in the internet environment.

4.CU is not perfect, and sometime there are alternate possibilities. But you can never prove them wrong.
Last edited by supmandidit on Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Randy from Boise
Been Around Forever
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:32 am
Wikipedia User: Carrite
Wikipedia Review Member: Timbo
Actual Name: Tim Davenport
Nom de plume: T. Chandler
Location: Boise, Idaho

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:52 am

supmandidit wrote:I'd like to share some of the stories behind that language barrier. Is a long story after gathering all the details and I must apologize for being wordy. I will try my best to be neutral. Should you have any concerns about translation feel free to ask me.
If you have difficulty identifying Chinese names you can replace the Chinese names with its Pinyin form.

守望者爱孟=Shouwangzheaimeng - Rye love Meng
乌拉跨氪=Wulakuake - Ula Cross krypton
范=Fan - Fan
中华爱国阵线=Zhonghuaaiguozhenxian - Chinese Patriotic Front
追迹未来=Zhuijiweilai - Tracing future
金牌雄鹰=Jinpaixiongying - Gold Eagle
嘀嘀嘀=Dididi - Didi tick
Running these names into Google translate gives ya the above.

RfB

User avatar
The Garbage Scow
Habitué
Posts: 1748
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 4:00 am
Wikipedia User: The Master

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by The Garbage Scow » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:57 am

I guess it's somehow comforting to know en-wiki isn't the only Wikipedia that has experienced these things. It provides more evidence to my theory that the Wikipedia "permanent revolution"-esque model was flawed from the beginning and its own ideals are unsustainable.

User avatar
Randy from Boise
Been Around Forever
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:32 am
Wikipedia User: Carrite
Wikipedia Review Member: Timbo
Actual Name: Tim Davenport
Nom de plume: T. Chandler
Location: Boise, Idaho

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:23 am

The Garbage Scow wrote:I guess it's somehow comforting to know en-wiki isn't the only Wikipedia that has experienced these things. It provides more evidence to my theory that the Wikipedia "permanent revolution"-esque model was flawed from the beginning and its own ideals are unsustainable.
In economics, politics, and sociology, academics can learn a lot from "comparative studies."

An untapped field to be plowed in the academic growth industry of Wikipedia Studies...

RfB

User avatar
Kingsindian
Habitué
Posts: 2593
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:07 am
Wikipedia User: Kingsindian

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Kingsindian » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:54 am

Randy from Boise wrote: In economics, politics, and sociology, academics can learn a lot from "comparative studies."

An untapped field to be plowed in the academic growth industry of Wikipedia Studies...

RfB
I have often thought about comparing Wikipedia with RationalWiki. Never got around to doing it.

User avatar
Earthy Astringent
Banned
Posts: 1548
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:16 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Earthy Astringent » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:59 am

You want drama? I bet the Korean Wikipedia site is filled to the brim. No one does "angry" better than Koreans.

GlwnDwr
Critic
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by GlwnDwr » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:49 am

I know a medium sized Wiki that has an internal power struggle dating back to at least five years. There are four groups claiming to be in charge of it, including a powerless, recognised Wikimedia User Group. Every time someone gets a grant the others accused him of appropriating money. Other people illegally use Wikipedia promotional materials to promote their own causes e.t.c. At the end of the day English WP is not that bad.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Poetlister » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:40 pm

Kingsindian wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote: In economics, politics, and sociology, academics can learn a lot from "comparative studies."

An untapped field to be plowed in the academic growth industry of Wikipedia Studies...

RfB
I have often thought about comparing Wikipedia with RationalWiki. Never got around to doing it.
Rationalwiki is quite different from Wikipedia even though it has quite a few editors in common. It has an extreme house POV that distorts the majority of articles in a way that is probably impossible on Wikipedia with its vastly larger and more diverse editing community.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Johnny Au
Habitué
Posts: 2618
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:05 pm
Wikipedia User: Johnny Au
Actual Name: Johnny Au
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Johnny Au » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:56 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Kingsindian wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote: In economics, politics, and sociology, academics can learn a lot from "comparative studies."

An untapped field to be plowed in the academic growth industry of Wikipedia Studies...

RfB
I have often thought about comparing Wikipedia with RationalWiki. Never got around to doing it.
Rationalwiki is quite different from Wikipedia even though it has quite a few editors in common. It has an extreme house POV that distorts the majority of articles in a way that is probably impossible on Wikipedia with its vastly larger and more diverse editing community.
...and RationalWiki house style favours sarcasm, which is not allowed in the vast majority of Wikipedia articles, primarily due to Poe's law (T-H-L). Not just that, but RationalWiki favours pro-hedonistic views.

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:56 am

Earthy Astringent wrote:You want drama? I bet the Korean Wikipedia site is filled to the brim. No one does "angry" better than Koreans.
I am not sure which you want to mean: a joke, a stereotype about Asian people and their culture, or an opinion supported by fact? Anyway, we would need someone who knows Korean to break another language barrier for us.

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:02 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
supmandidit wrote:I'd like to share some of the stories behind that language barrier. Is a long story after gathering all the details and I must apologize for being wordy. I will try my best to be neutral. Should you have any concerns about translation feel free to ask me.
If you have difficulty identifying Chinese names you can replace the Chinese names with its Pinyin form.

守望者爱孟=Shouwangzheaimeng - Rye love Meng
乌拉跨氪=Wulakuake - Ula Cross krypton
范=Fan - Fan
中华爱国阵线=Zhonghuaaiguozhenxian - Chinese Patriotic Front
追迹未来=Zhuijiweilai - Tracing future
金牌雄鹰=Jinpaixiongying - Gold Eagle
嘀嘀嘀=Dididi - Didi tick
Running these names into Google translate gives ya the above.

RfB
You can replace the names with whatever, but the reason I used pinyin is that sometimes google translation does not work well, for example, 乌拉跨氪 is a combination of Chinese characters that does not have a clear meaning, and 嘀嘀嘀 is just the onomatopoeia 嘀 repeated 3 times.Now for 守望者爱孟 the first 3 letters 守望者 can mean "Warden, watcher", and the incorrect google translation could be based on the translation 麦田里的守望者\Catcher in the Rye.爱孟 is ambiguous, it could mean Love something/someone related to 孟.

Now talking about names, I remembered some more stories which I will add to the Hanteng section to the main post.

EDIT:Just found I can no longer edit the main post so I will post it in next post.
Last edited by supmandidit on Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:06 am

Hanteng, known in real life as Hanteng Liao(廖漢騰), had been joked around by pro-communists using pun of his name.

According to Hanteng's own account on this issue,

In Nov 2013,守望者爱孟 was briefly banned because of insisting on calling Hanteng "喊疼"(has the same pinyin but different tone, which literally means "yelling for pain") after Hanteng expressed his objection on calling him that.

In Nov 2013 there was a User:喊疼 registered, and CU says it is a sock of Jsjsjs1111, who is a pro-communist editor. Jsjsjs1111 was banned for one week for that.

In Apr 2014 there had been several usernames that looks like 喊疼 registered and added "This user is a sockpuppet of Hanteng operated in compliance to WP:SOCK" to their user pages.
(see https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... A%E7%96%BC and https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... 6%E8%BA%AB)CU found more socks, although the sockmaster is unknown.

On 2014 User:好疼(Haoteng, very painful) was registered and later renamed 飞贼燕子. Hanteng believed this was also a user name meant to mock him, although it is one letter different in Pinyin(but still quite unlikely if it is just a word picked by random).
Last edited by supmandidit on Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:53 am

News on Chinese WP today. Just as someone pointed in Village Pump, it looked like another picture had leaked through Telegram and IRC.Source:http://ircimg.yanenming.com:9090/AfWF1LWH/file_1562.jpg

Chinese translation:
User:守望者爱孟:@everyone Emergency call! The diligent and well-contributing admin@Admin-User:霧島聖 in our group had been nominated for de-adminship by Hanteng and his socks without proper reasons. I urge our group members to speak for justice in Village Pump. Thanks! [a link to village pump]
霧島聖 was the admin who "endorsed the result even acknowledged the claim that '守望者爱孟 is under persecution' in his speech of endorsement" as the main post had said. He had not been active since Aug 18 13:20 UTC according to contribs. (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:% ... 6%E8%81%96)

It is good to see after almost 3 years after a previous incident of an account that cannot be well distinguished between a sock and malicious impersonation, which incident resulted in Hanteng being banned for some months, 守望者爱孟 still takes on the side that Hanteng is using socks. the way the pro-守望者爱孟 guys determines "Hanteng's socks" is rather very "rational". Hanteng had denied the sock accusation(https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... d=41203892).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Randy from Boise
Been Around Forever
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:32 am
Wikipedia User: Carrite
Wikipedia Review Member: Timbo
Actual Name: Tim Davenport
Nom de plume: T. Chandler
Location: Boise, Idaho

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:25 pm

supmandidit wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
supmandidit wrote:I'd like to share some of the stories behind that language barrier. Is a long story after gathering all the details and I must apologize for being wordy. I will try my best to be neutral. Should you have any concerns about translation feel free to ask me.
If you have difficulty identifying Chinese names you can replace the Chinese names with its Pinyin form.

守望者爱孟=Shouwangzheaimeng - Rye love Meng
乌拉跨氪=Wulakuake - Ula Cross krypton
范=Fan - Fan
中华爱国阵线=Zhonghuaaiguozhenxian - Chinese Patriotic Front
追迹未来=Zhuijiweilai - Tracing future
金牌雄鹰=Jinpaixiongying - Gold Eagle
嘀嘀嘀=Dididi - Didi tick
Running these names into Google translate gives ya the above.

RfB
You can replace the names with whatever, but the reason I used pinyin is that sometimes google translation does not work well, for example, 乌拉跨氪 is a combination of Chinese characters that does not have a clear meaning, and 嘀嘀嘀 is just the onomatopoeia 嘀 repeated 3 times.Now for 守望者爱孟 the first 3 letters 守望者 can mean "Warden, watcher", and the incorrect google translation could be based on the translation 麦田里的守望者\Catcher in the Rye.爱孟 is ambiguous, it could mean Love something/someone related to 孟.

Now talking about names, I remembered some more stories which I will add to the Hanteng section to the main post.

EDIT:Just found I can no longer edit the main post so I will post it in next post.
It would really help English readers if you could convert the Chinese characters into English translation names. 嘀嘀嘀 as "DDD" would sort of capture what they are doing with that particular name. Obviously, Google Translate is very primitive and frequently very wrong, but 中华爱国阵线 doesn't compute to an English reader, whereas the name "Chinese Patriotic Front" not only would make the action easier to follow but would also give some indication about the political motivation of the individual behind the account.

Just a suggestion.

RfB

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:18 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
supmandidit wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
supmandidit wrote:I'd like to share some of the stories behind that language barrier. Is a long story after gathering all the details and I must apologize for being wordy. I will try my best to be neutral. Should you have any concerns about translation feel free to ask me.
If you have difficulty identifying Chinese names you can replace the Chinese names with its Pinyin form.

守望者爱孟=Shouwangzheaimeng - Rye love Meng
乌拉跨氪=Wulakuake - Ula Cross krypton
范=Fan - Fan
中华爱国阵线=Zhonghuaaiguozhenxian - Chinese Patriotic Front
追迹未来=Zhuijiweilai - Tracing future
金牌雄鹰=Jinpaixiongying - Gold Eagle
嘀嘀嘀=Dididi - Didi tick
Running these names into Google translate gives ya the above.

RfB
You can replace the names with whatever, but the reason I used pinyin is that sometimes google translation does not work well, for example, 乌拉跨氪 is a combination of Chinese characters that does not have a clear meaning, and 嘀嘀嘀 is just the onomatopoeia 嘀 repeated 3 times.Now for 守望者爱孟 the first 3 letters 守望者 can mean "Warden, watcher", and the incorrect google translation could be based on the translation 麦田里的守望者\Catcher in the Rye.爱孟 is ambiguous, it could mean Love something/someone related to 孟.

Now talking about names, I remembered some more stories which I will add to the Hanteng section to the main post.

EDIT:Just found I can no longer edit the main post so I will post it in next post.
It would really help English readers if you could convert the Chinese characters into English translation names. 嘀嘀嘀 as "DDD" would sort of capture what they are doing with that particular name. Obviously, Google Translate is very primitive and frequently very wrong, but 中华爱国阵线 doesn't compute to an English reader, whereas the name "Chinese Patriotic Front" not only would make the action easier to follow but would also give some indication about the political motivation of the individual behind the account.

Just a suggestion.

RfB
I think your idea made more sense. Maybe I should have explained more about what those names mean.

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:25 am

Another admin, who had been staying neutral and urging others not to "bring heat into this conflict" made such statements:
Original in Chinese:
My statement: I do not support this proposal for de-adminship [of 霧島聖], and I hope to resolve this conflict by talking to each other, without forging pictures. Relating to Galaxyharrylion's claim "who knows if it is forged", I believe you had already seen whether this post existed, being a member of this group yourself. The post was made today(August 21 2016)10:51:36AM (UTC+8),in the Wikipedia QQ group No.170258339. This group had 380 members, including some bureaucrats, CUs, admins and active users. I will not comment on this post and I will stay neutral.

鄭重聲明:本人目前並不支持本次罷免議案,並希望能多以溝通解決爭議,沒必要P圖,僅為轉告爾。關於樓下咖哩君說的「谁知道呢,是不是P的」,相信咖哩君可以自己去看,咖哩君自己是該群成員之一,該次發言時間為:今日(2016年8月21日)早上10:51:36 (UTC+8),於QQ上維基百科群(群號:170258339)做出。該群有380多名成員,其中有現任行政員、查核員、多名管理員與活躍用戶。對於該發言,本人不願做任何評論,同時表示中立。-和平、奮鬥、救地球!(留言) 2016年8月21日 (日) 07:22 (UTC)

Source:
https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... d=41205617
Even Galaxyharrylion, the leading figure in the pro-守望者爱孟 did not argue that the image was forged (although making an ambiguous comment "who knows if it is forged" at first), so I think the image should be valid.

Another news, after almost 2 years of his initial ban, 中华爱国阵线 filed an appeal, providing an alternative story to one CU's claim(https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... d=41200497) earlier that "based on CU evidence(which can be seen by those authorized on https://checkuser.wikimedia.org/?curid=5768) 中华爱国阵线 is 守望者爱孟". He says 守望者爱孟 gave him his account and password after he was banned in early 2014, and he once logged in using 守望者爱孟's account and changed password. 中华爱国阵线 also admitted that he did something bad on IPs after he is permabanned.

I think I should add one other lesson to the last paragraph of the main post:

Never share your account or IP address to anyone else. If anyone share you their account or IP address just don't use it. Else you will make a lot of confusion. Actually I had seen several other people getting into trouble for this, some of which got banned for sockpuppetery for some times.

User avatar
milowent
Critic
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:34 pm
Wikipedia User: milowent

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by milowent » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:34 pm

supmandidit wrote:However, with China's growth in national power in the recent years and the increase of Chinese people's confidence about their regime, plus the spread of methods to circumvent GFW, The balance between pro-communist and anti-communist in editor population would probably be no more. And this is what I believe will cause a wide range of conflict in Chinese WP in its process, like that in the case of "martyrdom" of 守望者爱孟.
I appreciate you sharing these insights about the Chinese Wikipedia, I don't think I've ever read about how they operate, especially with the detail and particulars of your post. Look forward to seeing more.
Explosive Chemistry!

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:18 am

I just looked at the talk page of 守望者爱孟. He just made an appeal half a day before calling in the QQ group to rally against "Hanteng and his socks" (see post #13). He stated in that appeal that "I admit to do something wrong at my temper and I should control my temper" "admins shoud think twice about banning people". 2 Hours later He was unblocked by admin Lanwi1 for accepting his faults and "last chance", although another CU+admin blocked him 40 minutes after the unblock. Well regarding those two events I am rather confused about how he means to "control my temper""think twice". Anyway, adhering to conspiracies is just a kind of "speech freedom" that seldom gets punished on Chinese WP, so such aggressive statement saying "Hanteng and his socks" wasn't really a surprise. I 've enen seen today that Galaxyharrylion says "The Chinese community is already far from obeying WMF, and those who obeyed WMF are just using it as a money tree"(https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... d=41231711)

I think I should explain the history of controversy on whether Hanteng had used socks first:

In July 2013 Hanteng was banned for 1 month for involving in a edit conflict. During his ban a user VGMAMS appeared and did some edits that shows some similarity to Hanteng. The CU result says "possible" and Hanteng's ban was extended from 1 month to 1 year. Hanteng seems to busy in real life sometimes, and he did not always appeal for ban ASAP. He later claimed he had shared his VPN with several other Wikipedians, who could have used it to operate the account. In Oct 2013 his ban was revoked. The actual owner and purpose of user VGMAMS were never known.

In the first half 2014 there were several waves of weird accounts who behaved somehow like they are impersonating Hanteng: some used usernames similar to Hanteng (see post #12). There were also several users whose edit somehow made some other editors ask CU to check for connection between those users and Hanteng (sometimes users from other faction as well). Again the CU was inconclusive about who is actually behind those accounts, although CU detected connection between some of those accounts. Most of those accounts were banned for socking, trolling and/or improper usernames.

In Sep 2015 when Hanteng was again in a ban from edit war, one of his opponent spotted an IP adding a "POV Dispute" template to an article Hanteng had been editing(https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... d=37344121), and he reported it as "possible sock of Hanteng circumventing ban". 范 extended Hanteng's ban to 3 months (although that doesn't save 范 from being marked as supporting anti-communist next year). 2 months later Hanteng and his supporters made an appeal and the ban was revoked for "not enough evidence". Anyway since then there had been no more suspected socks related to Hanteng for almost one year (You can check the CU request archives), and I can't find any good reason to raise the issue again.

Over all those years, Hanteng speculates that since Edouardlicn and 守望者爱孟 were both experienced in wikifighting and they both had bitter relationship with him, they or their supporters could be behind those events. The opponents of Hanteng are more likely to believe that those were Hanteng's own work practicing his skills in sockpuppeting and promoting his "persecuted" image. There is also a third possibility that those follies are just done by random guy(s) who do not work for any faction's good.

User avatar
Randy from Boise
Been Around Forever
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:32 am
Wikipedia User: Carrite
Wikipedia Review Member: Timbo
Actual Name: Tim Davenport
Nom de plume: T. Chandler
Location: Boise, Idaho

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:50 pm

On English-WP things like the Israel-Palestine conflict and biographies of national political candidates are "hot" issues that draw a great deal of edit-warring and conflict over content.

What are the "hot" issues on Zh-WP?

RfB

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:12 am

Randy from Boise wrote:On English-WP things like the Israel-Palestine conflict and biographies of national political candidates are "hot" issues that draw a great deal of edit-warring and conflict over content.

What are the "hot" issues on Zh-WP?

RfB
Probably just the same as English WP. Anything related to ideology, religion, political figures, controversies related to governments, Falun Gong, June 4th etc. Sometimes there are also conflicts between deletionism and inclucionism for a wide range of articles like ACG-related stuff and voice actors.

User avatar
Kingsindian
Habitué
Posts: 2593
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:07 am
Wikipedia User: Kingsindian

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Kingsindian » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:22 am

supmandidit wrote: Probably just the same as English WP. Anything related to ideology, religion, political figures, controversies related to governments, Falun Gong, June 4th etc. Sometimes there are also conflicts between deletionism and inclucionism for a wide range of articles like ACG-related stuff and voice actors.
I assume ACG refers to Anime, Comics and Games. Is there a Gamergate article on zh.wp? :P

User avatar
Johnny Au
Habitué
Posts: 2618
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:05 pm
Wikipedia User: Johnny Au
Actual Name: Johnny Au
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by Johnny Au » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:41 am

Kingsindian wrote:
supmandidit wrote: Probably just the same as English WP. Anything related to ideology, religion, political figures, controversies related to governments, Falun Gong, June 4th etc. Sometimes there are also conflicts between deletionism and inclucionism for a wide range of articles like ACG-related stuff and voice actors.
I assume ACG refers to Anime, Comics and Games. Is there a Gamergate article on zh.wp? :P
...or a GamerGate article in the Japanese Wikipedia (given that Japan produces the second most video games in the world; for sure there are identity politics related to video gaming in Japan)?

supmandidit
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Re: Power struggle and drama on Chinese WP

Unread post by supmandidit » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:02 am

Kingsindian wrote:
supmandidit wrote: Probably just the same as English WP. Anything related to ideology, religion, political figures, controversies related to governments, Falun Gong, June 4th etc. Sometimes there are also conflicts between deletionism and inclucionism for a wide range of articles like ACG-related stuff and voice actors.
I assume ACG refers to Anime, Comics and Games. Is there a Gamergate article on zh.wp? :P
Would you just look it up the other languages bar to the left? It looks like 中文 if the Chinese article exists.

Post Reply