Daily featured articles

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
kołdry
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Daily featured articles

Unread post by trout » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:03 am

This is a proposed "today's featured article" thread about the writing of the "featured articles".

Here is Banksia aemula (T-H-L).
Banksia aemula, commonly known as the wallum banksia, is a lignotuberous shrub of the family Proteaceae. Found from Bundaberg south to Sydney on the Australian east coast, it is encountered as a shrub or a tree to 8 m (26 ft) in coastal heath on deep sandy soil, known as Wallum. It has wrinkled orange bark and shiny green serrated leaves, with green-yellow flower spikes, known as inflorescences, appearing in autumn. The flower spikes turn grey as they age and large grey follicles appear. Banksia aemula resprouts from its woody lignotuber after bushfires.
In the first paragraph of the lead section, we have at least five words (highlighted) which only a specialist could be expected to know. This is closely followed by the following cryptic riddle:
First described by the botanist Robert Brown in the early 19th century, it derives its specific epithet "similar" from its resemblance to the closely related Banksia serrata.
How is anyone supposed to be able to understand this gibberish by reading from the start of the sentence?
It was known for many years in New South Wales as Banksia serratifolia, contrasting with the use of B. aemula elsewhere. However, the former name, originally coined by Richard Anthony Salisbury, proved invalid, and Banksia aemula has been universally adopted as the correct scientific name since 1981.
Why is this unimportant detail about naming in the lead section?

The poor writing in the lead section is followed then by incomprehensible abominations like the following sentence:
Initially tipped with white conical pollen presenters, the flowers open sequentially from the bottom to the top of the inflorescence over one to two weeks,[4] in a process known as anthesis.
The article goes on to display signs of "wiki-churn" caused by tag-on facts:
Banksia aemula was called wallum by the Kabi people of the Sunshine Coast, giving rise not only to its common name of wallum banksia but also to the name of the ecological community it grows in.[9] Frederick Manson Bailey reported in 1913 that the indigenous people of Stradbroke Island knew it as mintie.[10] Banyalla is another aboriginal name for the species.[8]
Here the final two sentences are clearly tagged on and badly incorporated into the text, with the person then the name made into the subject of the sentences, where the plant is the subject of the first sentence, making the article read poorly.

Again here, someone has tagged on facts:
Banksia aemula was collected by Scottish botanist Robert Brown in June 1801 in the vicinity of Port Jackson, and published by him in his 1810 work Prodromus Florae Novae Hollandiae et Insulae Van Diemen. The specific name, Latin for "similar", refers to its similarity to B. serrata.[8] Brown also collected a taller tree-like specimen from Sandy Cape which he called Banksia elatior; the specific name is the comparative form of the Latin adjective ēlātus "elevated".[11][12]
Notice how the highlighted part is almost totally irrelevant to this article.

Parts of it contain careless and shoddy grammar:
This community is found on younger, windblown sands than the heathlands to the north.[25]
Parts of the "Ecology" section are repeated in the "horticulture" section below it.

User avatar
Zoloft
Trustee
Posts: 14075
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:54 pm
Wikipedia User: Stanistani
Wikipedia Review Member: Zoloft
Actual Name: William Burns
Nom de plume: William Burns
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Zoloft » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:19 am

And yet this is their 'featured' work, presumably Wikipedia's best.

My avatar is sometimes indicative of my mood:
  • Actual mug ◄
  • Uncle Cornpone
  • Zoloft bouncy pill-thing


User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:06 pm

This is clearly an article by and for botanists, not the general public. One of the big issues with Wikipedia is that it is never clear who the target audience is; some articles are fine for 12 year olds, but some need a degree in the subject. To be fair, the difficult words are all blue linked so you can easily find out what they mean (assuming that the linked articles are any good). It is however excessive to link both lignotuberous and lignotuber.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
lilburne
Habitué
Posts: 4446
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:18 pm
Wikipedia User: Nastytroll
Wikipedia Review Member: Lilburne

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by lilburne » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:50 pm

Poetlister wrote:One of the big issues with Wikipedia is that it is never clear who the target audience is; some articles are fine for 12 year olds, but some need a degree in the subject.
The target audience is always Fuckwits.
They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
So Google's shills can shriek there whenever they're inclined

User avatar
Kumioko
Muted
Posts: 6609
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:36 am
Wikipedia User: Kumioko; Reguyla
Nom de plume: Persona non grata

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Kumioko » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:58 pm

Poetlister wrote:To be fair, the difficult words are all blue linked so you can easily find out what they mean (assuming that the linked articles are any good). It is however excessive to link both lignotuberous and lignotuber.
I agree, in fact I think there is little value to linking to things multiple times and there is little need to link to something very common like Mammal or rodent although the argument could be made to have it. I agree though that this is not an easy to read article and it really isn't that well written IMO.

Casliber
Gregarious
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:51 am
Wikipedia User: Casliber
Wikipedia Review Member: Casliber
Location: Sydney, Oz

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Casliber » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:19 pm

trout wrote:In the first paragraph of the lead section, we have at least five words (highlighted) which only a specialist could be expected to know.
(a) click on bluelinks, that's what they're for. Thought you'd have figured that by now. But feel free to suggest some substitute terms that do not result in loss of meaning. There was a big kerfuffle about what its scientific name should be about 35 years ago, with New South Wales people insisting on calling it B. serratifolia and other states calling it B. aemula. This predates internetz so is lost to history. isolated factoids are hard. Either leave as single sentences or tack on somewhere. And hard if no extra source material allows for a smooth run-on without OR. The second highlighted part is an alternate name for this plant. Obviously not clear enough for you so will need another sentence I guess....

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by trout » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:16 pm

Casliber wrote:(a) click on bluelinks, that's what they're for.
Write words that people can understand. That's what words are for.
Thought you'd have figured that by now. But feel free to suggest some substitute terms that do not result in loss of meaning.
We must never, ever lose a scrap of precious meaning by writing readable English. "Never use a simple word where a long one plus a blue link can be substituted".
There was a big kerfuffle about what its scientific name should be about 35 years ago, with New South Wales people insisting on calling it B. serratifolia and other states calling it B. aemula. This predates internetz so is lost to history.
So let's just stuff random crap into the lead section of an article, then expect people to understand some weird story about classification in different parts of Australia without actually bothering to explain it. Then let's call this drivel "a featured article".
isolated factoids are hard.
Capital letters are hard too. Hint: put one at the start of each sentence.
Either leave as single sentences or tack on somewhere. And hard if no extra source material allows for a smooth run-on without OR. The second highlighted part is an alternate name for this plant. Obviously not clear enough for you so will need another sentence I guess....
It's not clear enough for anyone. If you can't express yourself in words, and have to resort to responding as you have done above, what business do you have writing encyclopedia articles?

User avatar
Zoloft
Trustee
Posts: 14075
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:54 pm
Wikipedia User: Stanistani
Wikipedia Review Member: Zoloft
Actual Name: William Burns
Nom de plume: William Burns
Location: San Diego
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Zoloft » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:38 pm

I like this discussion. Clear writing is important, and vital for any educational reference. I mourn when I fail at clarity even when it's just this forum.

This is, at best, a mediocre article.

My avatar is sometimes indicative of my mood:
  • Actual mug ◄
  • Uncle Cornpone
  • Zoloft bouncy pill-thing


Casliber
Gregarious
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:51 am
Wikipedia User: Casliber
Wikipedia Review Member: Casliber
Location: Sydney, Oz

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Casliber » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:21 am

trout wrote:If you can't express yourself in words, and have to resort to responding as you have done above, what business do you have writing encyclopedia articles?
Business? It's a pleasure to be of service :D

For instance, "epithet" has a specific meaning over "name"....after reading plenty of Tolkien the word is very familiar to me. Is the extra meaning worth the loss of accessibility?

"Proteaceae" can't really be explained but is a key family of plants. Link is best. Is "woody base known as" too cryptic. What about " flower spikes" which explains the term "inflorescence", which is important as it denotes that it is a complex structure of smaller flowers

"Wallum" is also a key plant community - I am sorry if "coastal heath on deep sandy soil" is just too complex an explanation for you.

" flowers open sequentially from the bottom to the top of the inflorescence" - ok, changed last word to "flower spike" - or is "sequentially from the bottom to the top" a bit too hard to understand?
Last edited by Casliber on Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

Casliber
Gregarious
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:51 am
Wikipedia User: Casliber
Wikipedia Review Member: Casliber
Location: Sydney, Oz

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Casliber » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:22 am

lilburne wrote:
Poetlister wrote:One of the big issues with Wikipedia is that it is never clear who the target audience is; some articles are fine for 12 year olds, but some need a degree in the subject.
The target audience is always Fuckwits.
That's quite funny

Hex
Retired
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:40 pm
Wikipedia User: Scott
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by Hex » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:33 am

I took the liberty of slightly retitling this thread as I'm prejudiced against thread titles that end in "thread". Plus the slight ambiguity bugged me a little. Carry on as you were!
My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia? -- JimboWales
Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

Casliber
Gregarious
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:51 am
Wikipedia User: Casliber
Wikipedia Review Member: Casliber
Location: Sydney, Oz

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Casliber » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:38 am

Poetlister wrote:This is clearly an article by and for botanists, not the general public. One of the big issues with Wikipedia is that it is never clear who the target audience is; some articles are fine for 12 year olds, but some need a degree in the subject. To be fair, the difficult words are all blue linked so you can easily find out what they mean (assuming that the linked articles are any good). It is however excessive to link both lignotuberous and lignotuber.
Some person overlinked the damn thing...oh wait, it was probably me....

Hex
Retired
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:40 pm
Wikipedia User: Scott
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by Hex » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:44 am

It was known for many years in New South Wales as Banksia serratifolia, contrasting with the use of B. aemula elsewhere. However, the former name, originally coined by Richard Anthony Salisbury, proved invalid, and Banksia aemula has been universally adopted as the correct scientific name since 1981.
"Proved invalid" by whom, when, where, and how? Without that information it's a completely meaningless comment.

I knew this thread was reminding me of something... it's like an enwikibadscience one. [insert five "dead horse" emoticons here]
My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia? -- JimboWales
Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

Casliber
Gregarious
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:51 am
Wikipedia User: Casliber
Wikipedia Review Member: Casliber
Location: Sydney, Oz

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by Casliber » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:53 am

Hex wrote:"Proved invalid" by whom, when, where, and how? Without that information it's a completely meaningless comment.
It's a teaser. It's in the body of the text....

User avatar
Wonderer
Regular
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:05 am
Actual Name: Robert Soupe

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by Wonderer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:12 am

In my opinion, the first line of an article in a general knowledge encyclopedia should be readily understood by someone who is not a specialist in the subject at hand. But of course it's possible to go to the other extreme, and we have a thread for that, don't we?
A sheep dog is a dog used in the raising of sheep, not some kind of sheep and dog hybrid.
And this is an actual quote from Croation Sheepdog (T-H-L):
The Croatian Sheepdog is a dog breed from Croatia.

User avatar
The Joy
Habitué
Posts: 2606
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:20 am
Wikipedia Review Member: The Joy

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by The Joy » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:08 am

I'm surprised there wasn't wailing and gnashing of teeth of Anarky (T-H-L) being a Featured Article let alone on the Main Page. In the old days, Geogre, Giano, et al. would have been all over that. :blink:
"In the long run, volunteers are the most expensive workers you'll ever have." -Red Green

"Is it your thesis that my avatar in this MMPONWMG was mugged?" -Moulton

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:35 pm

Casliber wrote:For instance, "epithet" has a specific meaning over "name"....after reading plenty of Tolkien the word is very familiar to me. Is the extra meaning worth the loss of accessibility?
It might not occur to the average Wikipedian that articles need to be comprehensible to the many people who are not Tolkien fans.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
eagle
Eagle
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:26 pm

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by eagle » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:40 pm

The Joy wrote:I'm surprised there wasn't wailing and gnashing of teeth of Anarky (T-H-L) being a Featured Article let alone on the Main Page. In the old days, Geogre, Giano, et al. would have been all over that. :blink:
To me, the most controversial item in the Anarky article are the block quotes in boxes off to the side. When people layout a magazine they use "pull quotes" from the article itself to capture readers as they flip pages. Here, it appears that the editors were trying to compensate for limitations on the number of "fair use" images that can be included in the layout by placing quotes in boxes in various sections of the article. Using a quote in a well-written article would normally need to flow and would incorporate the context of the quote. Here, I am trying to understand the credibility of the person quoted and whether the quote supports the NPOV of the article or whether the person quoted is pushing a point of view.

I am sure I can find many people who have been quoted as saying "The moon is made of green cheese." But when I write an encyclopedia article about the moon adding a box quote like that without a context to understand the credibility or weight that should be assigned, really detracts from the article.

ArmasRebane
Gregarious
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by ArmasRebane » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:18 pm

That appears to be an issue with the WP house style in relation to comics characters, mostly (I've noticed they're far more liberal with pull-quotes, and agree they are often misused as a result.) The "well let's link to external images to get around fair use" seems like it's just waiting for a crackdown.
In broader layout terms I've never much liked the style for comics articles; even with this FA there seems to be too much "power and abilities" in-universe nonsense.

To the wider scope, TFA blurbs tend to read badly to me, although even when it's one of my own articles I don't generally attempt to much of a rewrite. Problem is it's hard to get enough context into a single paragraph that's trying to cover the majority of the article, and harder still if you're just an outsider writing the blurb.

Carcharoth
Habitué
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:44 am
Wikipedia User: Carcharoth

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by Carcharoth » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:44 pm

ArmasRebane wrote: The "well let's link to external images to get around fair use" seems like it's just waiting for a crackdown.
Hotlinking (linking directly to the image) is bad, yes, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with linking to a page that contains or exhibits an image relevant to the article. It is essentially a link to 'further reading', which can often be incorporated into the external links.

An example (that I created) is the external links at Charles Illingworth.

(Yes, I know two of the links have since died - one has moved and I'll fix that at some point).

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by trout » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:39 am

Hex wrote:I took the liberty of slightly retitling this thread as I'm prejudiced against thread titles that end in "thread". Plus the slight ambiguity bugged me a little. Carry on as you were!
The point of it is, not that it's about just that one article, but a general thread on the topic of the various "Today's featured article". If the "thread" bit is removed perhaps it should be "Today's featured articles" or something.

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by trout » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:12 am

Today's featured article is Æthelberht of Kent. I was disappointed to find that the lead section basically makes sense, but it wasn't long into the article before I struck Wiki-gold:
Overlordship was a central feature of Anglo-Saxon politics which began before Æthelberht's time; kings were described as overlords as late as the ninth century. The Anglo-Saxon invasion may have involved military coordination of different groups within the invaders, with a leader who had authority over many different groups; Ælle of Sussex may have been such a leader.[8] Once the new states began to form, conflicts among them began. Tribute from dependents could lead to wealth.[9] A weaker state also might ask or pay for the protection of a stronger neighbour against a warlike third state.[10]
First of all it introduces the term "Overlordship" without bothering to explain what it means. Then it begins babbling about a completely different topic, the Anglo-Saxon invasion, and a different person, Aelle of Sussex, in what seems to have been a random addition to the text. This is closely followed by a descent into thoroughgoing inanity: "Tributes from dependents could lead to wealth" - a statement which seems apropos of absolutely nothing either before or after it in the text. Finally "A weaker state also might ask or pay for the protection of a stronger neighbour against a warlike third state", seems almost a comment made at random. Then there is a reasonably clear discussion of sources in the following paragraph, and then a very tedious section titled "Ancestry, accession, and chronology". Generally the article is stuffed with minor details, the writers of the article seem not to be able to summarize the important points but dwell on small points at great length.

Hex
Retired
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:40 pm
Wikipedia User: Scott
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Hex » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:06 pm

trout wrote:the writers of the article seem not to be able to summarize the important points but dwell on small points at great length.
Wikipedia in a nutshell!
trout wrote: The point of it is, not that it's about just that one article, but a general thread on the topic of the various "Today's featured article". If the "thread" bit is removed perhaps it should be "Today's featured articles" or something.
I see what you mean. I've changed it to "Daily featured articles" to avoid "today".
My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia? -- JimboWales
Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by LynnWysong » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:28 pm

Am I the only one that thinks the FAC process is just silly? Now, I'm not a person to judge the merit of any article. I have no interest in the RfD process. I think it's great that people want to write on obscure subjects, and if some of those subjects are hard to understand by the average Joe or Jane, that's life. BUT, why do they need to be featured articles? I look at the featured articles every day, but am not interested enough to look at more than one in 10 of them. And, I have diverse interests. But a lot of these articles are either too obscure or probably get looked at enough without being a featured article. All it seems to be is an ego feeding process-another entry in an editor's list of so-called great articles (since so many editors don't seem to have grown out of the gold-star phase of elementary school), many of which are fraught with errors, because instead of a true peer review, they undergo a technical editing process.

FAC needs a PAID team of people who work about 60-90 days ahead, studying the calendar for important events that are associated with a date, then looking for potential articles that could be brought up to standards in time for that date, at which point subject matter experts (if they all haven't been run off, since most of them have better things to do than deal with the middle-school politics of WP) can be asked to review the article. So, say on the anniversary of the day Alaska became a state, an article on John Seward is featured. I know that that is already sort of what they do, but right now the committee just picks through the articles that are already FA, and it seems like a lot of time they are scraping the bottom of the barrel, or just throwing an article up to throw a bone to the promoter.

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Today's featured article

Unread post by trout » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:43 pm

LynnWysong wrote:FAC needs a PAID team of people who work about 60-90 days ahead, studying the calendar for important events that are associated with a date, then looking for potential articles that could be brought up to standards in time for that date, at which point subject matter experts (if they all haven't been run off, since most of them have better things to do than deal with the middle-school politics of WP) can be asked to review the article.
My opinion is that it's unlikely that the articles can be improved except by a hierarchy, where the final say on how the article is written is held by a person who is capable of writing well (as in they can edit the article so that it makes sense to a reader), and who can "just say no" to random edits. I agree that you probably would actually need to pay such a person, given the time and concentration it requires to write well.

Having to always build "consensus" makes it very time consuming to stop a person who is determined to add meaningless or badly-written sentences, and wreck the flow of written words. That's why well-written articles are more likely to be found on obscure topics than "featured articles", because the featured article is a broth which too many cooks have spoiled, whereas the obscure article about a topic which few people know about is written by one person, using a single, consistent voice.

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:54 pm

Agreed. The "collaborative process", as it is done in Wikipedia fails. Hell, I work for the federal government, and we do a better job collaborating than does WP.

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by trout » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:00 am

Today's article is African river martin. It goes into too much detail in the lead section, but it's actually rather a good article. Looking through the history, I find that it was created and very largely written by a single author, Jimfbleak (T-C-L).

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:16 pm

trout wrote:Today's article is African river martin. It goes into too much detail in the lead section, but it's actually rather a good article. Looking through the history, I find that it was created and very largely written by a single author, Jimfbleak (T-C-L).
Agreed. Too much detail in the lead, but a good article. But a featured article? That's the problem. Most featured articles are on obscure subjects that can actually be polished up for FA status. Other articles that might draw the public's attention more are so dragged down by bickering and are so unstable they'll never see the light of day.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:49 pm

trout wrote:Today's article is African river martin. It goes into too much detail in the lead section, but it's actually rather a good article. Looking through the history, I find that it was created and very largely written by a single author, Jimfbleak (T-C-L).
It's quite rare to find a really good article with more than two major contributors. Once you have three or more, articles tend to lose their structure and start rambling or get unbalanced, even if they are factually correct.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Kelly Martin
Habitué
Posts: 3377
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:30 am
Location: EN61bw
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Kelly Martin » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:02 pm

I used to write reviews of articles on my blog, but I got bored with it after a while because really they all end up reading about the same. Wikipedia is an exercise in inconsistent mediocrity, and we can find virtually endless examples of that simply by hitting "Random page".

Featured Articles should be exempt from this problem, except that what makes an article "featured" isn't quality, but rather the willingness of its author(s) to shotgun the article with citations (which need not be relevant, as nobody actually checks) and run the political gauntlet of making the Featured Article Dictator happy. The Featured Article process primarily measures an author's skill at ass-kissing, not writing.

ArmasRebane
Gregarious
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by ArmasRebane » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:31 pm

Kelly Martin wrote: Featured Articles should be exempt from this problem, except that what makes an article "featured" isn't quality, but rather the willingness of its author(s) to shotgun the article with citations (which need not be relevant, as nobody actually checks) and run the political gauntlet of making the Featured Article Dictator happy.
Articles can't get passed without at least a spot-check of sources. I suppose if you're doing some 10th century bishop like Ealdgyth you could get away with all print sources and few people *could* check them, but for the vast majority of recent subjects it's actually pretty easy to identify misattribution and plagiarism. It's definitely one of the ways FA standards have tightened since SandyGeorgia stepped down.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:59 pm

ArmasRebane wrote:Articles can't get passed without at least a spot-check of sources.
These spot checks tend to concentrate on whether the source exists and is reliable. They rarely study whether the reference explicitly confirms the point that it is meant to.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:08 pm

That's tedious work. Something someone would want to be PAID to do....

User avatar
Rational Observer
Resurrected
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:49 pm
Wikipedia User: Rationalobserver

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Rational Observer » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Zoloft wrote:I like this discussion. Clear writing is important, and vital for any educational reference. I mourn when I fail at clarity even when it's just this forum.

This is, at best, a mediocre article.
The vast majority of Caliber's work is in fact quite mediocre. Nonetheless, he has no problem regularly jamming articles through FAC, as all he needs are three or four trusted supporters, and the FAC will pass regardless of the quality of the article.

In fairness, Casliber is not alone in this, as anyone with too many friends will get through FAC too easily, which is really no favor to them, as the quality of their work suffers for a lack of genuine criticism, and they really never grow as writers. I've tried to read Casliber's work, and I find it mind-numbingly boring and awkward. Is his work among Wikipedia's best? I seriously doubt it. Is it brilliant and engaging? Definitely not.

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by LynnWysong » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:16 pm

Poetlister wrote:This is clearly an article by and for botanists, not the general public.
You can make it both by writing the body more geared to someone who knows little about botany, and putting some of the more technical information in footnotes. In the case of this article, about 90% of it belongs in the footnotes. I

Carcharoth
Habitué
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:44 am
Wikipedia User: Carcharoth

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Carcharoth » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:30 pm

Absolutely. Footnotes (as they should be used) to communicate asides to the main text, are rarely used as much as they should be. Some people hate the way footnotes can break up the flow of reading the text of an article, and I have some sympathy with that view (as someone who uses footnotes and parenthetical statements a lot).

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:42 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Absolutely. Footnotes (as they should be used) to communicate asides to the main text, are rarely used as much as they should be. Some people hate the way footnotes can break up the flow of reading the text of an article, and I have some sympathy with that view (as someone who uses footnotes and parenthetical statements a lot).
Putting asides in the main text breaks up the flow even more by making it ramble.

ArmasRebane
Gregarious
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by ArmasRebane » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:53 pm

Poetlister wrote:
ArmasRebane wrote:Articles can't get passed without at least a spot-check of sources.
These spot checks tend to concentrate on whether the source exists and is reliable. They rarely study whether the reference explicitly confirms the point that it is meant to.
Obviously as a process FAC is dependent on who shows up, but going through some current FACs I find clear examples of actual checking of citations, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... !/archive2 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... )/archive1 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... g/archive1

Of the ones I clicked through I found only one that didn't have any clear indicator that the sources had been checked for veracity with the text.


---

As for footnotes, I've only ever really used them on I believe on FA. I think the question for me is if something is tangential enough to put in a footnote, is it really worth including in a general encyclopedia anyhow? Feels like a trivia section at times.

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:18 pm

ArmasRebane wrote:As for footnotes, I've only ever really used them on I believe on FA. I think the question for me is if something is tangential enough to put in a footnote, is it really worth including in a general encyclopedia anyhow? Feels like a trivia section at times
I think it goes back to the question of who we're targeting the article towards. Someone that just wants an overview of the subject, or those that want more in-depth information. Footnotes allow you to do both; I think the question is not so much "'is it worth' it?", but "is it appropriate?" I think it's worth it, but if it's appropriate is a question that should be addressed after discussion at a higher level.

Carcharoth
Habitué
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:44 am
Wikipedia User: Carcharoth

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Carcharoth » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:32 pm

Sometimes subsidiary information should be placed in other articles and those articles linked. Sometimes subsidiary information should be in a footnote. Sometimes you might just want to link to 'further reading'. One thing that Wikipedia lacks is the concept of an 'appendix'.

Sometimes stubs get written instead of footnotes. Bringing in an example from the Signpost article here (discussed here), how would you handle the material in Anita Kurmann (T-H-L)? Should the material (unlikely ever to be expanded further) just be a footnote in another article, or should stand-alone stub articles act as 'footnotes' to the rest of the encylopedia?

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Today's featured article thread

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 pm

Certainly the lead should be relatively comprehensible to an intelligent non-specialist. You can then bury the technicalities further down. If you can't give at least a vague idea of the topic in simpler language, you might wonder whether the topic should be in a general encyclopaedia.

I have seen books where the most difficult sections, to be skipped by all except the hardiest, are in smaller print. That can work, but it might not suit Wikipedia.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Kumioko
Muted
Posts: 6609
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:36 am
Wikipedia User: Kumioko; Reguyla
Nom de plume: Persona non grata

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Kumioko » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:50 pm

Carcharoth wrote:Sometimes subsidiary information should be placed in other articles and those articles linked. Sometimes subsidiary information should be in a footnote. Sometimes you might just want to link to 'further reading'. One thing that Wikipedia lacks is the concept of an 'appendix'.
You bring up a valid point and IMO this is one of those rare occasions where having a /subpage in article space makes some sense. If we look at articles like Audie Murphy (T-H-L), we see that there is the main article and several subarticles covering their military career, filmographies, etc. in greater detail than the main article.

In the case of Audie Murphy it makes sense to have separate articles because there is an abundance of content, in many cases however it doesn't and you end up with a one or 2 line microstub.

In some rare cases, it might make more sense to just use an embedded /subpage to track some of this info rather than create stub article. We could then link to it in a template on the talk page so it can be expanded or utilized later. Just my opinion though and it should be by exception and not the norm.

A /subpage might also be a good use for an appendix for lengthy articles such as the aforementioned Audie Murphy one or Barack Obama.

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by trout » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:03 am

Today's featured article is Arthur W. Radford. (I skipped yesterday as I'm not interested enough in video games to wade through that very long article about a particular game.)

The article is somewhat laudatory. It reads more like an official US Navy biography of the person than a genuine biography, to the extent that I would guess the main authors are somehow connected to the US Navy. There is no criticism of Arthur W. Radford in the article, no mistakes he made, and no controversies. There is also little attempt to explain what status he actually had, and at times the article seems to be skirting around that issue.

The article also abruptly ends at the end of his military career, not even bothering to mention what he did except for the words "private sector". A lot of it reads like it was copied from the reference material. I had a look at the references, which seem to be legitimate if fairly obscure.

As usual, there is some poor writing in the article. For example, this convoluted list of spouses of his wife:
On 22 April 1939, he married Mariana (or Mariam) Spencer at Vancouver Barracks, Washington. Spencer (1895–1997) was a daughter of Simon Caro, and the former wife of (1) Albert Cressey Maze (1891–1943, with whom she had a son, Robert Claude Maze Sr., Major, USMC who was killed in action in 1945) and (2) Earl Winfield Spencer, Jr..
and here is a bit of baffling text:
By mid-1941, thanks to a large expansion in the naval aviator program, squadrons could no longer train newly arrived aviators. Further, at that time, the vast difference in the performance of combat aircraft over training aircraft meant that pilots needed more time in combat aircraft before becoming proficient in them. Radford was subsequently visited by Artemus L. Gates, Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air. The latter was so impressed that he ordered Rear Admiral John H. Towers, chief of the Bureau of Aeronautics, to transfer Radford to a newly formed training division.
Here the prior event of the word "subsequently" is "a large expansion in the naval aviator program", which makes not much sense, and "The latter" seems like it would be better written as "Gates", or even better combined with the previous sentence using "who". Also, if Gates was "so impressed", obviously one would like to know what had impressed him. We aren't given any information except that Radford was in Trinidad, it doesn't even mention what he was doing there. Seems like the authors of the article are eager to build Radford's reputation up.

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:14 pm

That's a really poorly written article. How about the three sentences above Trout's last quote: "In July 1941, Radford was appointed commander of the Naval Air Station in Trinidad, British West Indies. He protested this appointment because he feared he would remain there for years, sidelined as World War II loomed.[2] In the event he only remained in this station for three months, following an organizational shift in the Bureau of Aeronautics." In the event??? Shouldn't that be in any event? And yes, the "subsequently" is problematic. It would make more sense if it read: "Shortly after his arrival in Trinidad, Radford was visited by Artemus L. Gates, Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air." It would read even better if it said "Probably because of Radford's experience in training pilots, shortly after his arrival in Trinidad, he was visited by Artemus L. Gates, Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air..." But to leave in a statement like that would cause the anal-rententive enforcers of "No Synth" and "No OR" to deplete their supplies of disposable enemas.

But again, here's where footnotes can be useful. If you were to write: "Shortly after his arrival in Trinidad, Radford was visited by Artemus L. Gates, Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air." then footnote it with "Although sources are not clear why Gates visited him, it is likely because of Radford's experience in aviation training" But, I doubt even that would get through a FAC. Which is why I will never submit an article for FAC. I'd rather it make sense and be accurate than comply to the letter with every WP policy and guideline.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Poetlister » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:01 pm

trout wrote:There is also little attempt to explain what status he actually had, and at times the article seems to be skirting around that issue.
I'm not clear what you're driving at. "In over 40 years of military service, Radford held a variety of posts including Vice Chief of Naval Operations, commander of the United States Pacific Fleet and later the second Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff" seems clear. I do agree that rhe whole thing is very positive, giving the impression of a whitewash, and that more should be said of his post-navy career.

The last section, about his decorations, is a bit ostentatious and yet uninformative. Is there any need to have those 16 pictures arranged like that? it would be better to have a bullet list, which could then include the date he won each award.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
trout
Regular
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:24 am
Wikipedia User: Don City Break

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by trout » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:25 am

Today's featured article is Pictor. The problems start right at the beginning, before the first word of the article, where there is a big chunk of redirect text for two Romans and an obscure computer program called Pictor Paint, an "improved version of PCPaint", with a link which then redirects back to ... PCPaint. Why anyone thought that an article about a constellation needed to have this inane babbling about different obscure programs, let alone whether one obscure thing was an improved version of another obscure thing, is anyone's guess. Yet another Wiki-win for people cramming irrelevant junk into every place they can.

Now on to the article proper, and surprise surprise, the lead section is really badly written.
Pictor is a small faint constellation in the Southern Celestial Hemisphere, located between the brilliant star Canopus and the Large Magellanic Cloud. Latin for painter, its name is an abbreviation of the older name Equuleus Pictoris (the "painter's easel").
Here is a suggestion:
Its name is Latin for painter, an abbreviation of ...
That way, the reader doesn't have to jump back to the start of the sentence to work out what it's talking about.
Normally represented as an easel, Pictor was invented and named by Abbé Nicolas Louis de Lacaille in the 18th century.
Again, someone thinks inversion sounds clever. Consider that it's nearly impossible for anyone to understand "Normally represented as an easel" without reading the rest of the article, and that the only understandable part of this is just a repetition of what was in the previous sentence.
The constellation's brightest star is Alpha Pictoris, a white main sequence star of apparent (visual) magnitude 3.3 around 97 light-years away from Earth. Pictor also hosts RR Pictoris, a cataclysmic variable star system that flared up as a nova, reaching magnitude 1.2 in 1925 before fading into obscurity.[a]
Here the exact details about magnitudes, the wiki-links, etc. should all just be relegated to the main text of the article:
The constellation's brightest star is Alpha Pictoris, a white star around 97 light-years away from Earth. Pictor also hosts RR Pictoris, a star system that flared up as a nova in 1925.
Similar for the next paragraph:
Pictor has attracted attention because of its second-brightest star Beta Pictoris, 63.4 light-years distant from Earth, which is surrounded by an unusual dust disk rich in carbon, as well as an exoplanet (extrasolar planet).
How about just leaving out the "attracted attention" part here:
Pictor's second-brightest star Beta Pictoris, 63.4 light-years distant from Earth, is surrounded by an unusual dust disk rich in carbon, and has a planet.
Here is another one:
Among them is HD 40307, an orange dwarf that has six planets orbiting it, one of which—HD 40307 g—is a potential super-Earth in the circumstellar habitable zone.
How about writing that without all the jargon:
One planet orbiting the star HD 40307 is an earth-like planet which may be able to support life.
(I had to click on the wiki-links to work out what the jargon actually meant.)

There is probably much more and worse in this article, but having written this much, I'll leave that for now.

LynnWysong
Banned
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by LynnWysong » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:30 am

Just skimming through it, I don't think its too bad an article. With some decent editing, including moving some more of the technical information to footnotes, it could be comprehensible by the average reader.

User avatar
Kumioko
Muted
Posts: 6609
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:36 am
Wikipedia User: Kumioko; Reguyla
Nom de plume: Persona non grata

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Kumioko » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:43 am

Poetlister wrote:The last section, about his decorations, is a bit ostentatious and yet uninformative. Is there any need to have those 16 pictures arranged like that? it would be better to have a bullet list, which could then include the date he won each award.
This argument comes up quite a bit with Military biographies. Good or bad ribbon displays and medals are a significant part of a military persons career and uniform and there is a specific order they go in when displayed. I think a compromise would be to put them in a collapsed state, like a lot of articles do with family trees.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:42 am

There's more to be said about the name of Pictor. The old French name of Chevalet du Peintre, and the German Malerstaffelei, given in R. H. Allen's classic book "Star Names", are missing.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Daily featured articles

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:44 am

Kumioko wrote:This argument comes up quite a bit with Military biographies. Good or bad ribbon displays and medals are a significant part of a military persons career and uniform and there is a specific order they go in when displayed. I think a compromise would be to put them in a collapsed state, like a lot of articles do with family trees.
I can see that some people would see this as important, but it's rather trivial for a general reference work. Anyway, you just list them from top to botom and left to right. There's bound to be an article on their correct order, which can be linked if necessary.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

Post Reply