Consensus

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Konveyor Belt
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Consensus

Unread post by Konveyor Belt » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:14 am

In a changing Wikipedia, what role does community input have in the grand scheme of things as set out by the WMF and Jimmy?

This musing came to my attention after an excellent case study when on Jimbo's talk page discussing COI. Coretheapple (T-C-L) and Jusdafax (T-C-L) suggested some kind of "auditor" which would try to prevent COI editing and have advanced permissions. A flawed proposal, but its heart was in the right place.

Core suggested forming a committee of "interested editors" and having them develop an idea and report to the WMF, very much like how a boss would tell his employees to formulate a plan and report back to him. Presumably then the Board would vote on it. I replied no, because I personally belive such a policy changing thing like that needs wide community consensus. Jusdafax said that was precisely the reason why it shouldn't go before the community:
I will be blunt and say again, this proposal will never be built properly, much less get off the ground, if it has to gain community consensus. The community failed to enact even the mildest community de-Adminship reforms back in 2010. Even a cursory look at the process at WP:CDA shows systemic admin resistance to that proposal. The idea of Auditors is much more radical, by comparison.
As we saw with the COI TOU proposal, the WMF tends to throw out community input in favor of their own internal strategies. But the TOU is by definition their own, while policy is the community's.

So I ask you, when will stuff like this become the norm? In particular, when will the WMF begin dictating our policy without community input?

What role will consensus play in the years to come, as the encyclopedia gets bigger and bigger, and the editor number gets smaller and smaller, and more drastic changes need to be made?
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Peter Damian
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Re: Consensus

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:36 am

It's generally agreed in real life that consensus systems are highly resistant to change, and tend to ossify, because of the difficulty of getting everyone to agree on something. Hence the existence of committees, and representative democracy in general. The community of people elect a much smaller number to thrash out alternatives, write a paper or report, and perhaps refer the result back. If the community don't like the end result after a certain period, they vote the committee or government out.

The discussion you are referring to has all the bad characteristics of consensus systems. Lots of different people contributing, some interesting ideas, some bad ideas, no one paying attention to what anyone else has suggested, a complete dog's dinner. Also a plea for decisive leadership, which is not happening of course.
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Poetlister
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Re: Consensus

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:05 am

Consensus is one of many much-abused words on Wikipedia. It can mean a 6 to 4 vote (sorry, !vote) out of what are still many thousands of active editors. Indeed, since it depends on the judgment of one person (usually, but not necessarily, an admin on AfD or similar boards), it can even sometimes go against the apparent majority.
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Ross McPherson
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Re: Consensus

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:44 am

Good English is my idea of consensus - words in agreement with each other, emerging from large communities of people with a shared history. Typically it only takes one person to arrive at this kind of consensus – someone acting as a spokesperson for an academic community, for example. You rarely find that kind of consensus in Wikipedia articles. Instead you find small groups of anonymous nerds hammering out some kind of truce on the basis of limited understanding of the subject and complete ignorance about each other. This kind of consensus requires more than one person since it is all about creating new communities rather than representing established ones. However, these new communities are like clusters of mice, gathering almost by accident and dispersing as soon as the corn is all eaten. Maybe 'community' isn't the right word. 'Plague' would be better.

My sympathies to all those good people at Wikipedia trying so very hard to be the right kind of mice. I share your pain even if I no longer share your corn.
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DuhHello
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Re: Consensus

Unread post by DuhHello » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:56 pm

Consensus on Wikipedia means the opinion of the noisiest voices on Wikipedia.

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sparkzilla
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Re: Consensus

Unread post by sparkzilla » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:35 am

COI on WP is the result of an editing system allows editors to asses edits based on the quality of the person making the edit, instead of the quality of the edit itself. A better-designed system takes the person out of the assessment altogether, by anonymizing the process. It's no surprise that the kneejerk WP response to COI is to add more layers of assessors, instead of fixing software that doesn't work at its core.
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Sparky
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Re: Consensus

Unread post by Sparky » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:17 am

DuhHello wrote:Consensus on Wikipedia means the opinion of the noisiest voices on Wikipedia.
Witness Wikimedia Commons. Consensus as a method of governance is deprecated.