Indian fakers faking again

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
kołdry
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:44 pm

This refers. As you recall from the blog post, administrator Wifione’s mission was to promote the interests on Wikipedia of a group of Indian business schools, the Indian Institute of Planning and Management, owned by flamboyant millionaire businessman Arindam Chaudhuri. Chaudhuri runs a chain of ‘diploma mills’. The ‘degrees’ are practically worthless, but unsuspecting parents are persuaded to mortgage the family farm, or take out loans of 10 lakh (about £10,000) or more to send children to the Institute.
Such misinformation can destroy lives. One parent spoke of being ‘ruined’ after taking out a bank loan. All they have is misinformation. “We got lured by the fake ads coupled with newspaper news praising IIPM institute,” said one parent. And as Chaudhuri’s lawyers were blocking official sites that may have helped the students and their parents, Wifione was at work on Wikipedia, removing statements like “Historically, IIPM has also been by far the largest advertiser among Indian educational institutions,” and “IIPM has been involved in controversies with respect to its advertising.”
As well as promoting articles about Chaudhuri’s business, Wifione added derogatory material to articles about Chaudhuri’s competitors, particularly Amity University, repeatedly adding claims that its founder was wanted on fraud charges (link), (link). In the introduction to the article about the Indian School of Business, he claimed that its Chairman Rajat Gupta had been sentenced for insider trading, with the comment “reformatted intro to balance the whole article” (link).
Editor Vejvančický (T-C-L) quit as administrator in disgust after Wifione simply ignored his editor review, kept quiet for a few months, then returned to editing. He recently left a rude message on Jimbo’s page.
What a cordiality and friendly speech from someone who has been told "not to come back" (by Jimbo Wales himself), not long time ago! I admire your ability to forgive, User:Wifione. Btw, you don't work for Mr. Chaudhuri anymore? I mean, you don't manipulate those articles since it was exposed in your editor review and in other places ..."
Not surprisingly, Wifione the shill is complaining bitterly at ANI, knowing that such incivility will be punished, and the insolent Vejvančický hopefully banished.
Intervention/suggestion required on handling former admin Vejvančický

Dear all, I need some intervention/suggestion on how to handle former admin Vejvančický. Post my editor review, where I had requested him to stop discussing me on Wikipediocracy if he wished me to answer his queries further, he seems to have been personally attacking me repeatedly. I've been ignoring him till now (and can continue to do so, if that's the suggestion here), but need your views on three particular instances:

On 23rd August this year, Vejvančický wrote on the Bureaucrats' Noticeboard, "Please remove the admin user right from my account. I don't want to be in the same elevated rank with dishonest manipulators, such as User:Wifione".[81] My name was soon enough redacted from his statement by another editor. I felt Vejvančický's statement was an unnecessary personal attack, but ignored it. Others on the BN noticed this too.

Later on, in a recent RfA, Vejvančický asked the candidate a question that ended as follows: "Would you trust administrator User:Wifione as your "confidant" after reading the review?"[82] Again, this was an unnecessarily constructed question, apparently intended to be a personal attack as I had asked a question to the nominee just some time before Vejvančický had. I ignored this too. Seeing that the candidate had my support, Vejvančický then proceeded to oppose the candidate giving the additional reasoning, "Also the presence of User:Wifione in the role of a polite and discreet behind-the-scene mediator is unacceptable to me. Find a better company next time.".[83]

On 9th December, after I had congratulated Jimmy Wales for a recent award, Vejvančický immediately posted the following comment: "What a cordiality and friendly speech from someone who has been told "not to come back" (by Jimbo Wales himself), not long time ago! I admire your ability to forgive, User:Wifione. Btw, you don't work for Mr. Chaudhuri anymore? I mean, you don't manipulate those articles since it was exposed in your editor review and in other places ..."[84]

For once, I did not ignore this and I immediately requested Vejvančický to remove the personal attack and allusion that I was working for some person. Today, Vejvančický refused to remove the personal attack, and wrote this as his reply to me on his talk page: "I've seen a lot of your "work" (many examples of your manipulation and subsequent super civil prevarication/obstruction) to be sure that I'm not mistaken, so I won't redact anything. The rest is at Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione"

I don't know how else to request him to stop his personal attacks. I would have expected him to get blocked for such repeated comments, if he had been any other editor. Vejvančický does good work around the project and somehow, if someone knows him well and could convince him to stop making such statements, it'll be helpful. If not, I'll appreciate some sort of a ban on him either interacting with me, or discussing me like this. Any suggestions will be helpful. Thanks. Wifione Message 14:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:59 pm

Peter Damian wrote:Not surprisingly, Wifione the shill is complaining bitterly at ANI, knowing that such incivility will be punished, and the insolent Vejvančický hopefully banished.
Interesting. Several hours later, no one has added a comment. He's being ignored, and being ignored on ANI isn't a daily occurrence.

Cla68
Habitué
Posts: 2389
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:43 pm
Wikipedia User: Cla68

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Cla68 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:32 pm

EricBarbour wrote:
Peter Damian wrote:Not surprisingly, Wifione the shill is complaining bitterly at ANI, knowing that such incivility will be punished, and the insolent Vejvančický hopefully banished.
Interesting. Several hours later, no one has added a comment. He's being ignored, and being ignored on ANI isn't a daily occurrence.
Word must have gotten out on the IRC among the admins to ignore that guy.

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:10 am

Finally....
Wifione, you haven't had much response here. One reason might be that there is rather a lot of material to wade through (I have, for the first time, read all the way through that editor review). This matter (and the various associated allegations) have at times over the past few years come to the attention of ArbCom. If you or Vejvančický are not satisfied with any resolution of the matter that is proposed here, and/or the community are unable to deal with this to your satisfaction, it may be time to raise it formally as an arbitration request to get an in-depth review of this and finally put things to rest one way or the other. I'm saying this as one of the outgoing arbitrators. For the avoidance of doubt, I would recuse from any case request that was made on this matter before 31 December 2014, and I do hope that you get sufficient responses here that it can be dealt with at a lower level of dispute resolution. Carcharoth (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I'm waiting to see if Vejvančický will be replying. NE Ent 00:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:34 am

Wifione, I'm going to ask Vejvančický not to mention your name again in any way except if he wants to file a request for arbitration, or if he wants to reconcile with you somehow. This is essentially a one way IBAN, except that it's informal. I'd rather not ask the community for an IBAN because that's hard to remove and not too many people on this board have the patience to wade through all the evidence. What Vejvančický has been saying are personal attacks, even if it's all true, because he's not providing clear evidence to back it up. (Pointing to a giant pile of hay, and saying the needle-like evidence is in there somewhere, does not make the cut.) Of course, you should feel free to request arbitration if you don't like this result. Jehochman Talk 05:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC).
That’s wonderful. If you don’t give enough evidence, you haven’t given enough evidence. If you give enough, then people on ANI won’t have the patience to wade through it (very true, actually).

I hope it goes to Arbcom, as it’s a fascinating test case. Chaudhuri is immensely powerful in India, so powerful that he was able to block a government website that was critical of his diploma mill by saying “IIPM is not a university within the meaning of section 2(f) of the UGC Act, 1956”. That’s right. An official government site stating that a diploma mill is a diploma mill is blocked by a legal order because it is defamatory. Other news articles and sites in India have been blocked by the same mechanism. So Wikipedia is one of the few places where people can seek the facts about IIPM that even the Indian government can’t publish.

Cory Doctorow writes about the case here. You can see exactly how it would appeal to the Internet freedom types. But wait! A Wikipedia administrator is also helping extend Chaudhuri’s influence even to Wikipedia, and the Internet freedom types are defending him from attacks by those who are critical. So when Chaudhuri does exactly the same thing, it is breaking the internet, but when Wikipedia does it, it is Internet freedom, because Internet freedom means the freedom to remain anonymous. My head is bursting.
Last edited by Peter Damian on Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:41 am

Update: Vejvančický agrees to take the case to arbitration.

If the WO candidate makes it in the elections, that will be truly interesting. Many times, Wifione has defended himself against any challenge by saying it is an attack by Wikipediocracy. For example.
As for the justification you've provided of your Wikipediocracy participation, it leaves me in quite some doubt of your intentions and honesty, as what you've mentioned above seems to be an outright lie, given the fact that I've now had the opportunity to myself witness the interactions. Firstly, the Wikipediocracy discussions forum that you're participating in, has members who're regularly attempting to out my identity and even guess my name within that very forum. There is no question of your justification of transparency. If such a discussion had happened on Wikipedia, many members within that discussion forum would have been instantly blocked (most already are, I guess). If you're comfortable discussing me with these editors and are openly belligerent about the same, then I don't believe there's any interaction we should be having on this project. Secondly, canvassing is quite evident on the discussion forum you're participating in, and I'm quite astonished at your rejection of the same. Here are a few canvassing examples: […]
link
Will Stanistani have to recuse? Will he have to recuse on absolutely any case where WO has commented? Fascinating.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:56 am

The usual lazy statement of "most Wikipediocracy members are blocked" (which I used to be guilty of as well) - I'd imagine it's probably more like 50/50, albeit those who are blocked on WP are usually the most vocal and active.

User avatar
lilburne
Habitué
Posts: 4446
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:18 pm
Wikipedia User: Nastytroll
Wikipedia Review Member: Lilburne

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by lilburne » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:45 pm

Lukeno94 wrote:I'd imagine it's probably more like 50/50, albeit those who are blocked on WP are usually the most vocal and active.
That isn't particularly true either. I only count 6 out of the top 20.
They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
So Google's shills can shriek there whenever they're inclined

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:30 pm

I just noticed with amusement that the Wikipedia article on Indian Institute of Planning and Management (T-H-L) says
The institute has also reportedly used paid editors to doctor the IIPM's Wikipedia page and those of its critics for promotional purposes.[78][79]
linking to the WO article
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31761
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:13 pm

It's hilarious and highly indicative of the weak scholarship at wikipedia that they can't get rid of such an obvious commercial shill.

Also, very amusing to watch famous chihuahua Jehochmann acting as prim school marm.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by EricBarbour » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:21 am

Jehochman wrote:I don't want to spend that much time and I'm not a one-man arbitration committee (though some of my hecklers tease me that I am).
We don't tease you for that, Jonathan, we tease you for being incompetent, arrogant and corrupt.
You're welcome.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:42 am

Copying this from the other thread about Jimmy’s award.
I'm seconding Jehochman's message to you. I came here to tell you to immediately stop. Your repetitive messages are trolling and are now disrupting discussions. Wifione 17:12, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I’m noting it because it fascinates me how easy it is to succeed on Wikipedia. You can use such techniques for success in real life, indeed some people argue that there is no flattery so egregious that it will be immediately spotted by its target. In my experience it can backfire badly if you make it too overt or explicit, but not so on Wikipedia. Wifone is a master of the art.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:21 pm

Peter Damian wrote:Copying this from the other thread about Jimmy’s award.
I'm seconding Jehochman's message to you. I came here to tell you to immediately stop. Your repetitive messages are trolling and are now disrupting discussions. Wifione 17:12, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I’m noting it because it fascinates me how easy it is to succeed on Wikipedia. You can use such techniques for success in real life, indeed some people argue that there is no flattery so egregious that it will be immediately spotted by its target. In my experience it can backfire badly if you make it too overt or explicit, but not so on Wikipedia. Wifone is a master of the art.
Volunteering as an attack dog and brown-nose is a time-honoured strategy of those who have skeletons in the cupboard. I wonder whether the difference between ordinary society and Wikipedia is that there are so many people with undeclared conflicts of interest and hidden agendas on Wikipedia that this type of behaviour has been able to establish itself as the norm to a far greater degree than in ordinary life: the individuals concerned instinctively recognise each other for what they are, and protect each other's backs.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:39 pm

More nonsense.
I request some assistance again with respect to Vejvančický. On 13th December I had written here requesting suggestions on how to handle user Vejvančický who was repeatedly attacking me and refusing to back off despite my request. Jehochman suggested to Vejvančický to not refer to me again on Wikipedia, except to request arbitration, or to make peace. Vejvančický confirmed on his talk page that he would follow Jehochman's suggestion. Unfortunately, the very next edit that Vejvančický made after that, which was today on the talk page of an article in reply to some IP,[109], Vejvančický again has made a personal attack mentioning my name and various references of mine to again (and again) allege his allusion that the article was created (ostensibly by me) to show the subject in bad light. To the IP, Vejvančický chats up about starting an arbitration request (!!) and that these links alluding to me should be pasted on the talk page of the article for editors not familiar with the situation. I request help for some kind of a closure on this. If Vejvančický wants to file an arbitration request, he's welcome to do that. But he should, in my opinion, at least follow some decorum in the meanwhile. Any guidance to handle this will be welcome... Wifione Message 11:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The background is that Wifione started an article on Ashok Chauhan on 24 February 2011. After a suitable pause, he added material about an arrest warrant in April 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =421792610
Ashok Chauhan is the founder, president of the Amity group of institutions[1] and chairperson of Vishva Hindu Parishad's European Central Committee.[2]

As per a 2009 Central Information Commission appeal ruling, German judicial authorities have issued arrest warrants against Ashok Kumar Chauhan and his brother Arun Kumar Chauhan, directors of the Amity group of institutions. The Interpol too has issued Red-Corner notices. The Ministry of Home Affairs has been requested to act on this issue "in accordance with law". The Union Minister for External Affairs in India has accepted that Germany wishes to prosecute Ashok Chauhan and Arun Chauhan and that they have sought legal assistance for extraditing the two.
Thus the entire article is a short sentence about who the guy is, and then the stuff about the arrest warrant. Ashok Chauhan is a competitor to Chaudhuri, so one can only speculate why Wifione was adding negative information about Chauhan, and positive information about Chaudhuri. The inclusion of that statement has been warred over for years. Link, link (“Reverted 1 edit by Cfiveindia (talk) identified as vandalism”).

In July 2014, Vejvančický reverted again, noting that “A Frankfurt court has ruled that there are no criminal proceedings against Chauhan and that the arrest warrant issued has been revoked”, but the claim is still the subject of edit wars. Then yesterday he placed the following message on the talk page of the article.
I firmly believe that this article was created to show its subject in a bad light and to highlight negative unimportant information. For further information, please read for example Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione, User_talk:Wifione/Archive_2011_(September)#How_Can_I_discuss_with_you.3F, User_talk:Wifione/Archive_2011_(October)#Amity or Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive204#Ashok_Chauhan. I'll start an arbitration request regarding the activities of the creator of this article in the upcoming weeks. For the moment, I think that the context should be mentioned here for editors not familiar with the situation. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 07:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:11 pm

Gauntlet. Thrown.
Retire. That would be the honourable thing to do. Your activity was seen for what it was a long time ago. Andreas JN466 18:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that Andreas is a Wikipediocracy member.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Jim » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:01 pm

Peter Damian wrote:Gauntlet. Thrown.
Retire. That would be the honourable thing to do. Your activity was seen for what it was a long time ago. Andreas JN466 18:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that Andreas is a Wikipediocracy member.
True. But you noted previously that his ANI plea was roundly ignored, and how unusual that was. Eventually jehochman defended him last time, but that's more of an indictment really.
Interestingly, no response this time either. I don't think he's "of the body".

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:59 pm

Jim wrote:
Peter Damian wrote:Gauntlet. Thrown.
Retire. That would be the honourable thing to do. Your activity was seen for what it was a long time ago. Andreas JN466 18:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that Andreas is a Wikipediocracy member.
True. But you noted previously that his ANI plea was roundly ignored, and how unusual that was. Eventually jehochman defended him last time, but that's more of an indictment really.
Interestingly, no response this time either. I don't think he's "of the body".
You could be right. See the latest.
I'm not going to spend time now reading the very long backstory here. The advice I gave was for that editor to ignore you, or to go provide his claims at Arbitration. If he ignored my advice, my intention was to file arbitration myself to get the issue resolved one way or the other. Since I'm too busy to do that today, I suggest you go file Arbitration and get these issues cleared up once and for all. Jehochman Talk 00:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Wifione, your comment above, "Vejvančický confirmed on his talk page that he would follow Jehochman's suggestion" is misleading. Vejvančický actually said, "Hello Jehochman. I'll follow your suggestion ad (1)"The "(1)" he agreed to was Jehochman's first suggestion: "(1) if you want to file a request for arbitration to desysop or ban him". He agreed to none of Jehochman's other suggestions in that conversation.You are an obviously biased editor. Your biased editing of articles about that business and its owner and their competitors is sufficient to have you desysopped and banned from Wikipedia.

You appear to be an employee or contractor of the company: you (most likely, given the circumstances and nature of the edit, or someone else) editing from that company's network made a maintenance edit to your user page.[82] But proving a financial connection beyond doubt will be difficult. Fortunately, that won't be necessary. The blatant tendentiousness of your editing alone disqualifies you from participating here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:57 pm

Jayen, Anthony, thanks for commenting. I've read your viewpoints and disagree with your views completely. I do realise the genesis of your opinions lies on another website where you've been judiciously prompted to provide this analysis. Given this connection both of you have outside our project, I don't think any reply of mine might suffice for you, although I would be more than eager to provide them to you in case you might wish. At the same time, I should thank you for taking the time out to comment (honestly, I suspect I would have died in embarrassment if no one from your group had commented). Wifione Message 18:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Entirely predictable.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:32 pm

Yes, because everyone here clearly follows the same party line... :applause:

Anyone trying to pull that kind of stunt should automatically lose any case they're fighting.

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:33 pm

Peter Damian wrote:Gauntlet. Thrown.
Retire. That would be the honourable thing to do. Your activity was seen for what it was a long time ago. Andreas JN466 18:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that Andreas is a Wikipediocracy member.
So are NYB and Worm that Turned.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Jim » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:33 pm

Peter Damian wrote:You could be right. See the latest.
Well, I don't see anyone rushing to defend him, still. Not really surprising, the reality is obvious to anyone who bothers to spend 5 minutes ignoring his turgid, deflecting blather and glances at the actual history.

I mean, yeah, as others have said, he has a good go at playing the game, with the brown nosing and walls of text which look like something until you actually try to read them and see they say nothing apropos to anything at all.

He realises this himself, now of course - that the game is pretty much up - hence his reverted attempt to close the thread, and the fact that he has retreated to a pretty half hearted BADSITES defence.

Anthony, there, says just enough, just right.

Still, it's wikipedia, he could still retreat to his shell to see if the waves pass again, I guess - re-emerge in the spring. Worse ones have, and he's shown he knows how.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:23 pm

And he hats it again, despite Anthony’s very forceful suggestion that he retire, or just bugger off. It’s all those coordinated attacks from badsites, and outing, you see. I wonder if he can win this?
Hi again Andrew. It's not about anyone's bidding, but your off-Wiki coordination leading unto these comments and personal attacks from you, Jayen and the others belonging to your group that are quite obvious from your off-Wiki discussions with others. Like I said above, although it might be useless for me to reiterate it given your antecedents, let me again put forward that your attacks and outing attempts are extremely misdirected. Having said that, I'll again close this discussion with the slim hope that you and your off-Wiki group would see some sense in not running down a very ludicrous path. Again, although it might seem out of character, in return to your comments above let me wish you and your off-Wiki group a merry Christmas. It's not meant to prove anything or to slight you all... just plain old wishes the plain old way. Take care and wishes for the season. Wifione 15:20, 25 December 2014(UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Jim » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:34 pm

Peter Damian wrote:And he hats it again, despite Anthony’s very forceful suggestion that he retire, or just bugger off. It’s all those coordinated attacks from badsites, and outing, you see. I wonder if he can win this?
The problem is, there'd be effort involved in making him lose. Not because it's hard to do, but because he knows how to make it an effort. That's what he's counting on. I've unhatted it because it's not finished, and he shouldn't be closing discussions about himself. My first real edit in 2 months, you bugger.

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:56 pm

If I could be bothered with familiarizing myself with the ArbCom "house rules" for setting up a case, I'd do it myself. But I can't. I think that's something else that Wifione is counting on.

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Jim » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:13 pm

Lukeno94 wrote:If I could be bothered with familiarizing myself with the ArbCom "house rules" for setting up a case, I'd do it myself. But I can't. I think that's something else that Wifione is counting on.
Nah. It'll kick off now. He's out of his comfort zone. I'll put the effort in, if I have to, at my pace, not his. This is the kind of editor I despise. And I'm not easily deflected with bullshit. I can afford 5 minutes a day for a week or two. Won't take any more than that.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:47 pm

Jim wrote:
Lukeno94 wrote:If I could be bothered with familiarizing myself with the ArbCom "house rules" for setting up a case, I'd do it myself. But I can't. I think that's something else that Wifione is counting on.
Nah. It'll kick off now. He's out of his comfort zone. I'll put the effort in, if I have to, at my pace, not his. This is the kind of editor I despise. And I'm not easily deflected with bullshit. I can afford 5 minutes a day for a week or two. Won't take any more than that.
I was just about to comment that someone not from here (Begoon (T-C-L)) has reopened the discussion. But then I noticed 'Jim'.

A question: why is it that this kind of thing comes from here, and not from there? A project that was aiming to build a reliable reference work would recognise that conflict of interest - whether paid or unpaid - posed a serious risk to its objectives. If it was properly organised, it would have a whole section of editors whose job it was to pick up on this thing, just as company accounts require independent auditors. Why does this site have to perform this useful function. And why, given its importance, the disdain in which this site is held over there?
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:40 pm

Because for most people, it's simply easier to ignore people like Wifione than it is to actually tackle them. Plus there's the whole myth about admins being untouchable, which hasn't really been burst for anyone not watching the DangerousPanda case. For me personally, I have little trust in ArbCom, no idea what to expect from the new committee members, and also don't have any experience with putting a case together.

As to why this site is held with disdain, well, that's easy; it's the perpetuated myth (which I once fell for myself!) that most people here are banned. That, and no one likes their dirty laundry being aired in public, plus the unfortunate tendency for some threads to get derailed in irrelevant ways (like the time I was outed here and pictures of myself were paraded around and mocked by a couple of people for no real reason).

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:51 pm

Peter Damian wrote:A project that was aiming to build a reliable reference work would recognise that conflict of interest - whether paid or unpaid - posed a serious risk to its objectives. If it was properly organised, it would have a whole section of editors whose job it was to pick up on this thing, just as company accounts require independent auditors. Why does this site have to perform this useful function. And why, given its importance, the disdain in which this site is held over there?
They do have an anti-paid-editing group. The problem is, most of them are crazy and incompetent, and the administrative understructure doesn't support them consistently. Because some administrators are probably violating the paid-editing rule themselves.

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:06 am

Like Wifione, for example.

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Jim » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:06 am

Jehochman has filed a request for an ARBCOM case
Statement by Jehochman
This is a case about accusations of serious misconduct by admin Wifione, including POV pushing, lying and paid editing. Accusations have been made by multiple editors; I've selected Anthonyhcole and Vejvančický as parties because their complaints seem more prominent and more persistent, though there may be others who could be added upon further review. If the accusations are true, Wifione needs to be desysopped, and possibly banned. Only ArbCom can take the necessary steps. The evidence in this matter is sufficiently voluminous that it would be unreasonable to expect passing editors at AN/I to fully familiarize themselves with the facts to make an informed decision. If the accusations are not true, there is a mob of angry editors hurling personal attacks at Wifione that needs to be disbanded. In my opinion, this is a matter where Arbitration could be very useful. Is this case ripe? Accusations have been floating around for more than a year, and still haven't been resolved one way or the other. I'd say this case is over-ripe.
If the accusations are not true, there is a mob of angry editors hurling personal attacks at Wifione that needs to be disbanded! :yikes:

Sitush
Retired
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Sitush » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:30 am

How will the case proposal work? Given the timing, will it be left for the new arbcom?

User avatar
Poetlister
Genius
Posts: 25599
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:15 pm
Nom de plume: Poetlister
Location: London, living in a similar way
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:38 am

The best way to have a sensible reference work based on crowdsourcing would be to have pending revisions, and a team of verified experts to check every edit. Obviously, apart from the difficulty of assembling and verifying such a team, you'd never get approval for pending revisions.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

User avatar
lilburne
Habitué
Posts: 4446
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:18 pm
Wikipedia User: Nastytroll
Wikipedia Review Member: Lilburne

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by lilburne » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:48 am

Jim wrote:Jehochman has filed a request for an ARBCOM case


If the accusations are not true, there is a mob of angry editors hurling personal attacks at Wifione that needs to be disbanded! :yikes:
Jehochman needs to be the ever vigilant watchman.
And far away behind their lines the partisans are stirring in the forest
Coming unexpectedly upon their outposts, growing like a promise
You'll never know, you'll never know which way to turn, which way to look you'll never see us
As we're stealing through the blackness of the night
You'll never know, you'll never hear us
They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
So Google's shills can shriek there whenever they're inclined

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:07 am


User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:39 am

Statement by Jehochman
[…]Accusations have been floating around for more than a year[…]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ts#Wifione
Much longer than that.
15:51, 5 December 2009:"Are you denying being an IIPM employee? As I have already said before, I think you are a sockpuppet of the individual who has in the past gone by names like Mrinal Pandey, iipmstudent9, alamsrinivas, etc. And been banned for several reasons, from vandalism, to sockpuppetry to threatening to kill me. That individual had admitted to being an IIPM employee. I think you are the same person. Even a sockpuppet investigation against you ended with the judges saying "possible, but let's wait for more evidence". Your behavior and whatever you have been writing since then has made it even more obvious to me that you are the same person. For your information, I am compiling evidence to restart that sockpuppet investigation. Especially since you have gone back to sockpuppetry....Suraj845? LOL! Anyway, my opinion is that you are an IIPM employee. And a sockpuppet of a past banned editor. I have a right to my opinion. So I will not "desist using" any words. Makrandjoshi (talk) 14:44, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Makrandjoshi was forced off after Wifione's persistent civility wore him down. It's a classic case of civil persistent POV pushing, and it will be interesting to see how if the committee takes the case on.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:54 am

One reason to be skeptical is that many misguided editors trying to puff up organizations, particularly those in India, and it is quite possible that people who do not like Indian Institute of Planning and Management have posted junk there over the years, junk that Wifione has removed.
[…]
Johnuniq (talk) 22:47, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah right, that would explain W1’s edit on 08:42, 26 June 2009, where he removes a whole bunch of sourced information, including "Several companies such as Standard Chartered and Deutsche bank mentioned in the ads denied having ever taken part in IIPM's campus recruitment process. It was also found that the "foreign jobs" mentioned in the ads were primarily short term contracts in the Persian Gulf, with several visa restrictions, and relatively low pay packages of approximately 6-700 USD a month", "The story also carried first person testimonials from past students of IIPM who said the advertisements built up their expectations which were not met, and the jobs they got after studying at IIPM are barely enough for them to repay loans taken for paying the tuition fees at IIPM" etc.

Note that the source (Careers 360) was the subject of extensive litigation by Chaudhuri, who claimed the article was defamatory.

It’s incredible how much trust is given to administrators in virtue of the fact they are administrators. This is one of the reasons why the case is so interesting.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:09 am

Because of Wikipedia’s structure and governance, namely that policies on outing and personal attacks always trump conflict of interest, this case will be difficult to prove.

One fact that bothers me more than anything else is the way that Wifione dodged, for a long time, the questions about conflict of interest. If you have the patience to wade through his editor review, you will see how he continually deflects questions about this. He eventually said he wasn’t being paid, but why did this take so long?

And why wasn’t he straightforward before?

Whenever the user has been asked about any affiliation with IIPM, he/she has evaded the question. To be fair, user is not being a vandal or revert-warring. But given the obvious pro-IIPM bias, and in tune with COI guidelines, it would be nice if the user clarifies any COI situation, either confirming or denying it. Makrandjoshi 13:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC) [2]
Amatulic, your last reply on the talk page ended with the statement to me, "Now I must ask, what is your association with IIPM?". In the past, I have noticed you to be a great contributor on many topics. You're one of the editors I notice has an editing history which is nothing short of brilliant. I have a polite request to you, and one you I hope you would not mind, given your positive past. Please don't use such statements. It is just a request. Thanks▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣ 03:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Amatulic, you are an editor with a good background and good editing history. It'll be good if you do not make statements such as "Now I must ask, what is your association with IIPM?" This is the second time you're writing this statement or a similar statement. ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣ 05:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
can you please take out your statement "What is your association with IIPM?" from all the places you have mentioned it? The statement goes beyond a CoI question and has been made on a talk page of an article. It is quite disparaging for a fellow editor. Thanks ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣ 09:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
When I politely asked him the same thing by email, he tried to get me blocked from meta.
I'm an administrator on the English Wikipedia. User Peter Damian is sending me harassing emails through this meta-wiki (as he is blocked since 2010 on the English wiki with his email being disabled). I wish to report these emails for their content and wish to request action on Peter's email account access on Meta and perhaps a block too, if the admins/bureaucrats here so deem fit. Is this the right forum to request so? Thanks.Wifione (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:12 am

Here is the "harassing email" (see above) I sent him, the one which prompted him to get me blocked.
-----Original Message-----
From: <peter damian email>
Sent: 11 November 2013 19:10
To: <wifione's email>
Subject: Re: Meta email from user "Peter Damian"

Hi many thanks for replying.

I am working on a piece about the penetration of Wikipedia by IIPM, as part of work about paid editing in general. I have done extensive research on the following two articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arindam_Chaudhuri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ins ... Management

I have also researched the three articles which were legally suppressed (the one by Rashmi Bansal, who I am corresponding with, the Careers360 and the Caravan article. I am also in touch with the external lecturers listed by IIPM to understand if they are really employed by the Institute.

Given your extensive involvement with the articles, I have to be really frank and ask if you have, or have ever had, any kind of financial relationship with IIPM, or with anyone associated with them (such as Chaudhuri or an associate) who would have an interest in promoting the Institute in any way on Wikipedia. This is the most interesting and impressive case I have studied.

Obviously you don't have to answer this question or even reply to this mail.

With every kind wish,

<My name and address redacted>
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:54 am

EricBarbour wrote:
And of course, there's no mention of the Wikipediocracy blog post from last year.
There is now, indirectly via the Editor review link I posted. Wifione also seems to have made a threat to obfuscate that editor review:
Given Vejvančický's attacks and outing attempts on my Editor Review, you are right, it's a wonder I've kept the page so long. Although I may have deleted the review whenever I wanted, I had kept it this long simply for ensuring trusted community members have access to the same. Perhaps that didn't quite work with you. Why don't you or Andrew make a copy before I delete it?
It won't work, as I've already saved a copy myself. If Wifione deletes the editor review, then it will be reposted straight away in my userspace. What worries me a little more is that apparently, Wifione is an abuse filter manager... so who knows what filters they've created to censor criticism.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:12 pm

He has never explained the editing breaks of several months either.

He makes no edits at all between 18 January 2014 and 24 April 2014. This could not easily be explained a ‘wiki break’, given that he started his editor review just a week before his break
on 12 January 2014. Perhaps the break was unexpected, but then why didn’t he say so?

After his return in April, he was reminded in June that he still hadn’t replied:
You may remember writing "Morning Vejvančický. May I request you to give me perhaps another day to provide you comprehensive clarifications? I don't wish to delay this but my real life work is giving me extremely less time to answer. So I'm pinning my hopes on this Sunday to give you comprehensive and in-depth clarifications. I hope that sounds okay with you. Thanks (again) for the patience. Kind regards." I'm sure we'd all appreciate the in-depth clarifications. Please review the new Terms of Use that you have agreed to as well - "As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." Hipocrite (talk) 13:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
He didn’t reply. Then :
User:Wifione asked for another day in January 2014, more than half a year back. I reminded him the unanswered questions in June, after he wrote that he plans to resume regular editing. "Surely. Thanks for the note", he responded. Now, he edits articles about supermodels (among other things) and don't bother to answer/clarify. What am I supposed to think about that? --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 11:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi Vej... Don't wish to give you a wrong vibe. I think it's just a combination of too much personal work in my real life combined with the fact that when I log on to the project with my limited time, I invest that time doing things that have interested me and stuff that I enjoy... and have ergo kept on postponing spending the limited and valuable time I invest on the project to write answers for you. That's an honest answer. My apologies for the delay. Should have done the same long back. Will try to block some time in the coming days to reply to you. Hope I don't end up disappointing you again. And yes, it's good to see you around the project; and I do mean it. Best wishes. Wifione Message 08:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
(My emphasis).
"Will try to block some time in the coming days to reply to you" is an old and bad song. I don't want to patronize you, but a response, and not only to me, should be the first thing you do after you "resume editing", now matter how much you want to invest your valuable time doing things you enjoy on Wikipedia. It's a matter of honesty and integrity, I'm not sure if you realize that. You have opened the ER as an indignant and righteous reaction to Jimbo Wales' comment, but now you are trying to sweep it under the carpet. That's what I think. Please answer or I'll start a request for your ban and desyssoping as I would be ashamed to collaborate with people who avoid honesty and responsibility in this way. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 07:56, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Vej, I know it sounds like an old and bad song... but it's not intended to slight you or the other editors on the review. Your queries (and so of other editors) deserve answers and I have no issues in answering them in the near coming days. Your threat to otherwise start a request for my ban and desyssoping brings down my respect for you considerably, especially in the light of information (as I'm now told by editors here) that it is copy pasted at the behest of some editors canvassing you for action on another external forum, where you are also perhaps an active member, apart from some other editors on my editor review. In the light of this, your allegiance to terms like honesty and integrity seems compromised. Irrespective of your canvassed threat, or of you coordinating your actions with editors on another site about your actions here, I shall surely look forward to answering your queries and those of other editors at the review this weekend or within a day or two of that, embedding these new details within my answers. Hope that seems fair... Regards. Wifione Message 05:34, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
Jim
Blue Meanie
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:33 am
Wikipedia User: Begoon
Wikipedia Review Member: Jim
Location: NSW

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Jim » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:38 pm

There's just so much of this that I don't see how he can bluff his way through. I'm thinking it's time for him to dust off Wifithree (T-C-L). I think he will need to make use of it sooner than he anticipated. I wonder if it already has admin?

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:47 am

Lol, note how he gives the URL.
WP:BADSITES aside, this blog post at wikipediocracy.com (/2013/12/02/indian-fakers-teach-wiki-pr/) provides some useful context for the accusations, which I think the arbitrators wuld want to read. User:Maunus •ʍaunus•snunɐw• 00:21, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Of course, Wikipediocracy is a Badsite
Attack sites are websites outside Wikipedia that are used to facilitate, promote, or encourage the harassment of individual Wikipedia editors. … These websites' activities include the malicious posting of abusive comments, physical threats, libel, and attempts to disclose the private information of Wikipedians.

For the purposes of this proposal, an attack site is a site outside Wikipedia that engages in any of the following: Compiles or sponsors efforts to obtain evidence that may be used to discover the real world identities of Wikipedia contributors

Wikipedia:Attack_sites (T-H-L)
That’s what this case is about. Wifione is claiming that any attempt to reveal his conflict of interest (editing on behalf of a diploma mill) is harassment or ‘outing’. Of cousre, it doesn’t matter that this administrator was engaged in severe harassment of Indian journalists and publishers, who were trying to disclose the truth about IIPM. From the article that Maunus links to:
Another of Wifione’s targets was a magazine called Careers 360, a publication which also tried to reveal the truth about IIPM. In June 2009 they published ‘IIPM – Best only in claims?’ Like Bansal, they found that the IIPM degrees were worthless. “For us only registered institutions with accredited programmes are considered credible”, said the Belgian government agency. Employers denied having any association or recruitment process with IIPM. Academic sources like McCombs Business School, University of Texas at Austin, said they were unaware of any association between the McCombs and IIPM. The ‘international’ job placements were low-paid and the terms poor. An ex-student told them that they were frequently taught by students who had just graduated from IIPM. You would not know this from reading Wikipedia, which said that Careers 360 was ‘poor in quality and a shady new yellow journal that ran illogical and brazenly false stories about IIPM’. Its source was a story in The Sunday Indian, the newspaper edited by Chaudhuri himself. Wifione claimed the story was unreliable, although editor Mahesh Peri told us that Careers 360 is the largest career magazine in India, launched by Dr. Kalam, former president of India. “We knew who we were taking on, hence stuck to facts.”

Indian Fakers Teach Wiki PR
Even so, I wonder if the arbitrators will take the case on. Regarding another case, an arbitrator told me that paid editing and conflict of interest was “not an area that I feel a lot of passion about”, noting that he never made any deeper investigation than the evidence presented on the case itself, by those ‘who have knowledge of the subject’.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:08 am

I think this does go beyond your generic paid editor or even your generic COI though. I would be extremely disappointed if ARBCOM didn't take this on, and I kind-of feel they have to; the new ARBCOM needs a case to prove themselves on, and if they reject this case out of hand, it's going to colour their entire stint on the committee for a lot of us.

Anthonyhcole
Habitué
Posts: 1120
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:35 am
Wikipedia User: Anthonyhcole

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Anthonyhcole » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:53 pm

I need some help with this. I've been named as a party in the current arbitration request, and am happy to cooperate but I'd appreciate some help in preparing a statement. Just some random thoughts:

This is unique in that it involves an admin, it will swing on just tendentiousness (unless a strong case for paid editing is made, and from what I've seen so far that case isn't strong enough), and most (all?) of the evidence has been sifted and collated by Peter, Eric B and other WO denizens ... and if you're willing to help me here, transparently putting together an arbitration case argument, that'll be a first of some kind. The Noleander case also swung on just tendentiousness, but it didn't have these other elements.

Proving beyond doubt that Wifione is in the employ of IIPM or Chaudhuri will be difficult or impossible, so probably doesn't deserve many column inches - perhaps just a mention of the possibility with the diff of an IP from the institute performing a maintenance edit on Wifione's user page, (and a brief mention of any other evidence supporting the hypothesis).

Proving beyond doubt that Wifione is consistently polishing IIPM and Chaudhuri while consistently smearing their competition - i.e., egregious tendentious editing - should be a simple task, if my memory serves me well. One approach would be a head-to-head analysis of the treatment of the two sides on similar issues. I think Wifione emphasised IIPM's and Amity's accreditation problems quite differently; and criminal investigations involving the leaders of the organisations were also dealt with starkly differently, weren't they? Did Wifione misrepresent the meaning of sources; and did those "errors" consistently favour IIPM and Chaudhuri or harm the reputation of their commercial rivals? Are there examples of Wifione declaring a type of source reliable when it serves the interests of IIPM and Chaudhuri and unreliable when it doesn't? Any other examples?

I'm pretty sure I recall examples of all of these. I'm hoping you can save me hours of searching, if you have them at your fingertips. But I'd be very grateful for any help, suggestions or thoughts offered.
Last edited by Anthonyhcole on Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:36 pm

Anthonyhcole wrote:I need some help with this. I've been named as a party in the current arbitration request, and am happy to cooperate but I'd appreciate some help in preparing a statement. Just some random thoughts:

This is unique in that it involves an admin, it will swing on just tendentiousness (unless a strong case for paid editing is made, and from what I've seen so far that case isn't strong enough), and most (all?) of the evidence has been sifted and collated by Peter, Eric B and other WO denizens ... and if you're willing to help me here, transparently putting together an arbitration case argument, that'll be a first of some kind. The Noleander case also swung on just tendentiousness, but it didn't have these other elements.

Proving beyond doubt that Wifione is in the employ of IIPM or Chaudhuri will be difficult or impossible, so probably doesn't deserve many column inches - perhaps just a mention of the possibility with the diff of an IP from the institute performing a maintenance edit on Wifione's user page, (and a brief mention of any other evidence supporting the hypothesis).

Proving beyond doubt that Wifione is consistently polishing IIPM and Chaudhuri while consistently smearing their competition - i.e., egregious tendentious editing - should be a simple task, if my memory serves me well. One approach would be a head-to-head analysis of the treatment of the two sides on similar issues. I think Wifione emphasised IIPM's and Amity's accreditation problems quite differently; and criminal investigations involving the leaders of the organisations were also dealt with starkly differently, weren't they? Any other examples?

I'd be very grateful for any help, suggestions or thoughts offered.
I would be happy to help but bear in mind that Wifione tried to have me blocked for asking COI questions, so I wouldn't want to harm your case.
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Anthonyhcole
Habitué
Posts: 1120
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:35 am
Wikipedia User: Anthonyhcole

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Anthonyhcole » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:56 pm

Peter Damian wrote:I would be happy to help but bear in mind that Wifione tried to have me blocked for asking COI questions, so I wouldn't want to harm your case.
I'd welcome your input. You're much better across the evidence than I am.
Last edited by Anthonyhcole on Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4206
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Peter Damian » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:07 pm

It needs to be organised into the key points, with evidence supporting each.

1. Obfuscation and evasion when challenged on COI. This goes back a long way, see the links here. Some long breaks in editing following persistent questioning.

2. Alongside this, attempts to have people banned for asking polite questions, and blaming Wikipediocracy for outing, Badsites and so on. This is not consistent with ‘admin accountability’: “Administrators are accountable for their actions involving administrator tools, and unexplained administrator actions can demoralize other editors who lack such tools. Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions. Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed”. In the Stierch affair, it was claimed that it was only actions involving the tools that apply here, but the part in bold suggests otherwise. Might be a good test case, anyway.

3. Not using BLPs to promote a dispute – ‘BLPCOI’. For years, Wifione persistently added derogatory and defamatory material into Ashok Chauhan (T-H-L). At the same time he was puffing up the article on Arindam Chaudhuri (T-H-L).

4. Removing reliable sources. This included removing a reference to the Stanford letter. This was a letter from the associate Dean of Stanford Business School, denying IIPM’s claims that the school has any kind of connection with IIPM. Or this edit here where he removed the statement that “Several companies such as Standard Chartered and Deutsche bank mentioned in the ads denied having ever taken part in IIPM's campus recruitment process”.

5. Adding unreliable sources. For example, he was targeting a magazine called Careers 360, which was trying to reveal the worthless claims of IIPM. He added a statement that the magazine was “poor in quality and a shady new yellow journal that ran illogical and brazenly false stories about IIPM”. I interviewed the editor Mahesh Peri who told me that Careers 360 is the largest career magazine in India, launched by Dr. Kalam, former president of India. “We knew who we were taking on, hence stuck to facts.” Stop press: Mahesh has just sent me this High Court order against Chaudhuri in September 2014. “The respondent No.4 IIPM and its management / officials including its Dean Mr. Arindam Chaudhuri are restrained with immediate effect from using the word “MBA, BBA, Management Course, Management School, Business School or B-School” in relation to the Courses / programmes being conducted by them or in relation to the representations if any made to the public at large and/or to their prospective clients, customers or students”.

6. No coherent explanation of why he was interested in IIPM at all, particularly given its notoriety. At the editor review, SB Johnny asked “What got you interested in the IIPM-related articles in the first place? SB_Johnny | talk 23:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)” Wifione replied “##It's a long time back, but as much as I recall, I think IIPM was a big advertiser in India and would have pulled top-of-the-mind recall in many youth. That would have been the reason at that time that got me interested.” Now follow his editor trail from July 2009 onwards, removing all negative references to IIPM, puffing up the biography of its founder, and adding negative and malicious information to the biography of its main competitor.

7. Circumstantial evidence connecting him with the school, such as editing from its IP (see above).
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:02 pm

Only in death does duty end wrote:As all issues are bog-standard editing issues (COI, NPOV etc etc) of which there is ample evidence, a simple topic ban from the areas would suffice. This is well within the ability of AN/ANI to impose (I did actually propose it, but any discussion or investigation was effectively cut off by this premature request for arbitration). As there is no accusation of admin-bit misuse, there is no need for arbcom involvement at this time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
What a load of bollocks. Hopefully, ArbCom are able to ignore this rubbish.

Anroth
Nice Scum
Posts: 3051
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Anroth » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:05 pm

Lukeno94 wrote:
Only in death does duty end wrote:As all issues are bog-standard editing issues (COI, NPOV etc etc) of which there is ample evidence, a simple topic ban from the areas would suffice. This is well within the ability of AN/ANI to impose (I did actually propose it, but any discussion or investigation was effectively cut off by this premature request for arbitration). As there is no accusation of admin-bit misuse, there is no need for arbcom involvement at this time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
What a load of bollocks. Hopefully, ArbCom are able to ignore this rubbish.
Why? What do you expect them to do that AN/ANI cant? Best case after a month of the Arbcom circus - he gets topic banned and an admonishment for conduct unbecoming. Its a massive waste of everyone's time. If people actually laid out their complaints properly at AN/ANI they would be dealt with more promptly. Just topic ban him from anything remotely related to India and have done with it. He either disappears and starts to sock (which he would do anyway in the event of an Arbcom decision) or he goes to edit something in which he doesnt have a conflict.

If arbcom really want to get involved, they could just resolve it by motion....

Lukeno94
Gregarious
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 pm
Wikipedia User: Lukeno94

Re: Indian fakers faking again

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:14 pm

ANI has shown that they don't care, and issues most certainly go beyond a mere topic ban being required. ANI cannot get the desysopping that needs to happen, because Wikipedia does not need any admins of this type; when they're found out, they should suffer the consequences of their disruption.

Post Reply