Steamed about Wikipedia

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thekohser
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Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by thekohser » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:32 pm

We all hear over and over again about how wonderful Wikipedia is as a resource. Wikipedians seem to have no worries that Google drives up traffic to Wikipedia while driving down traffic to competing sources.

I worry about the "monoculture of knowledge" that Wikipedia promotes.

The steam system that was built underground in Manhattan literally transformed the skyline of New York City. It has been upheld as one of the engineering marvels of the modern world. Suppose you're interested in the origins and development of the New York City steam system. Search Google for "New York City steam", and what do you see?

#1: New York City steam system (T-H-L) - Wikipedia has the following very limited information about the history of the system:
The New York Steam Company began providing service in lower Manhattan on March 3, 1882.[2] Today, Consolidated Edison operates the largest commercial steam system in the world.[3]
#2: Con Edison: A Brief History of Con Edison - steam - Con Edison provides the following information (with accompanying photos) about the history of the New York City steam system, and I don't see a copyright notice on the information:
At the same time that Edison was developing his system of central station power, another centrally produced energy source — steam — also was under development.

Building on the work of Sir Hugh Plat and James Watt, Birdsill Holly of Lockport, New York, heated his house, and later, much of the town, with steam. In 1877, he formed the Holly Steam Combination Company (later reorganized as the American District Steam Heat Co.). By 1882, Holly, the "father of district steam heating," had been issued 50 patents related to steam heat; he had developed a steam meter and his district steam system was being used in cities across America.

The steam heating industry was still in its infancy, and the challenges of introducing the system to a city as large as New York seemed almost insurmountable. Yet Wallace C. Andrews decided to take on that challenge. He acquired franchise and license rights to deploy the Holly system, and incorporated the Steam Heating and Power Company of New York in 1879. Andrews acquired a competing firm that was formed in 1880, the New York Steam Company, and the two companies consolidated in 1881 under the latter name.

With needed capital and other preparations now in place, Andrews and New York Steam's first chief engineer, Charles E. Emery, divided New York City into ten heating districts, acquired land for central boiler plants, and began to lay the steam mains. Emery, a marine engineer during the Civil War, was considered one of the leading steam engineers of his day. For this unprecedented venture, his experience and ingenuity would be put to the test as he solved numerous technical challenges. Often he would consult with Thomas Edison when the two men happened to meet in the trenches, discussing the challenges of building their respective energy systems.

New York Steam's first central steam boiler plant, located at Cortlandt, Dey, Greenwich, and Washington Streets, was completed in 1881 and included 48 boilers and a 225-foot chimney — at the time, it was one of the tallest features of the lower New York skyline, second only to the spire of Trinity Church. The district steam installation was so novel it was the cover story of the November 19, 1881 issue of Scientific American.

On March 3, 1882, the company supplied steam to its first customer, the United Bank Building at 88-92 Broadway, on the corner of Wall Street. By December 1882, New York Steam boasted 62 customers. By 1886, the firm had 350 customers and five miles of mains, and began an expansion uptown. The system proved its reliability by operating throughout the deadly blizzard of March 11-14, 1888. Through the years, the company expanded and made numerous improvements in the design of steam meters, controls, insulation, and even the pipes themselves.

The company built by Wallace Andrews was to go on to even greater success during the 20th century, but he was not to see it. During the night of April 7, 1899, Andrews and much of his family perished in a house fire. His brother-in-law, G.C. St. John, who was out of town when the tragic fire occurred, was made president of the company and guided it for more than a decade during a prolonged legal battle over Andrews' will.

The paralyzing effects of the litigation made necessary a financial reorganization that lasted from 1918 to 1921, but ultimately left the company, now called the New York Steam Corporation, prepared for a new era of expansion. By 1932, the tremendous Kips Bay Station (occupying the entire block along the East River between 35th and 36th Streets) and five other stations provided steam to more than 2,500 buildings. Among them were some of New York's most famous landmarks: Grand Central Terminal, the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, the Daily News Building, Tudor City, Pennsylvania Station and Hotel, and Rockefeller Center. Just about every new skyscraper was a testament to the efficiency and reliability of steam service: most were built without smokestacks or individual heating plants.

During the 1930s, the New York Steam Company maintained mutually beneficial business arrangements that would be a portent of its eventual consolidation. The company supplied steam to the Consolidated Gas Company and its affiliated gas and electric companies in Manhattan. In turn, The New York Edison Company supplied steam from its Waterside and Fourteenth Street electric generating stations during the morning hours on cold days to help meet peak energy needs. In 1932, Consolidated Gas acquired approximately 75 percent of New York Steam's common stock, and on March 8, 1954, the New York Steam Company fully merged with Consolidated Edison.

Today, Con Edison operates the largest CHP in the United States. The system contains 105 miles of mains and service pipes, providing steam for heating, hot water, and air conditioning to approximately 1,700 customers in Manhattan.
#3: What’s That Thing? City Steam Edition - Slate magazine delves into "what" the steam system is, but doesn't say much about its history:
Commercial, urban steam systems of this size are rare, and New York’s is the world’s largest. (Lockport, N.Y., had the world’s first urban steam system, in 1877, and Denver’s is the world’s oldest in continuous operation.) NYC’s system has 105 miles of main pipes, 3,000 manholes, and reaches around 1,800 buildings—everything from the Empire State Building to United Nations Headquarters.
#4: Miles of Steam Pipes Snake Beneath New York - The New York Times provides the reader with a wonderful overview of the NYC steam system, including a video presentation that nicely describes how the steam system impacts everyday life in the city, and details how it was built:
First developed in the 1880s, New York City’s steam system is the largest in the world. No other urban steam system comes close.
#5: Con Edison Steam System in New York City - DistrictEnergy.org presents a PDF of the history of the system. It features a detailed map of the system network (which isn't found in any of the other sources thus far, that I saw). It also gives a timeline of some historical milestones for the system:
1881 -– The New York Steam Company
1882: 62 customers
1886 –– First mains were laid in uptown district First mains were laid in uptown district
1936 –– Edison Illuminating Co. of New York
65 miles of steam pipe
1999 –– Electric deregulation: Formation of the Steam Business Unit
The sources that Google suggests that are lower than their top suggestion of Wikipedia are often better and more informative than what Wikipedia provides.

Does that leave anyone else steamed?
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Drowninginlimbo
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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by Drowninginlimbo » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:55 pm

thekohser wrote: The sources that Google suggests that are lower than their top suggestion of Wikipedia are often better and more informative than what Wikipedia provides.

Does that leave anyone else steamed?
Google and Wikipedia offer a service that is very easy to use but full of misinformation. There are plenty of other venues for research but they are not nearly as accessible or convenient. Despite this if you wanted to understand said topic in depth Wikipedia is mostly useless. I think most people understand that it is at best a starting point into research but many don't know that the information on the website is often completely wrong.

I remember an AfD a few months ago where somebody had created an article for a completely made up Philosopher in order to insert a quotation from said Philosopher into another article. There was a German music critic with the same name as this pretend Philosopher who has a fairly long article on the German Wikipedia so I imagine it was accepted with somebody thinking it was a translation, despite them working in completely different fields. It eventually got deleted as the references were from made up books but it had been there for some weeks.

My point is that there are probably a few articles on the website for academics that don't even exist. Any project with that sort of quality control is inherently useless as primary research.

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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by Kumioko » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:31 pm

I think part of the reason Wikipedia is so high up is because its so easy for Google to get the data. Its freely accessible and distributable and its all in one place. When Knol still existed, I always thought it was funny that Google never even found the articles there. Even if you put the title of the article in the google search with the right boolean operators, it still wouldn't retrieve it. I do full think that the WMF is working with google behind the scenes to bump up their own numbers, but eventually google is going to just dump the data to their own servers and kick them to the curb. They have already retooled their search engine a couple times which affected the Wikipedia's statistics.

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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by lilburne » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:43 pm

I think you'll find that wp is useless for any level of research. The only time one would use it is when one doesn't really give a shit about the resulting information. Here is the fundamental problem even if no one is consciously inserting bullshit, or pushing some agenda, and instead being straight up: they aren't subject experts. This means that what information gets put in there need not be the best or the most up to date. It may even be, all things considered, fringe nonsense. It may be populist mythology about a subject, it may be sourced from some bowdlerized work, and you as a uniformed reader are equally clueless. Its like consulting a book on the structure of the atom published in 1904.

WP is high up on Google because basically it won't be mostly crank. Go back to 2004 or so and most of the search results tended to be websites where every paragraph was in a different font, and every word was in a different colour. Here is a pretty good parody of much of it at the time linkhttp://sonoguy.tripod.com/[/link].
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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by Textnyymi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:53 pm

Wikipedia and Google help the clueless feel more informed than they actually are.

Keyword: "feel"!

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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by Peryglus » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:57 pm

lilburne wrote:Go back to 2004 or so and most of the search results tended to be websites where every paragraph was in a different font, and every word was in a different colour. Here is a pretty good parody of much of it at the time linkhttp://sonoguy.tripod.com/[/link].
When you click any link on that website a spam tab pops up. Just warning folks.
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sparkzilla
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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by sparkzilla » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:44 pm

The problem is actually deeper that Gregory suggests because it highlights that Google can't actually answer the question he is asking. When he puts "New York City steam" into Google it spits out a list of links that may or may not answer the question, one of those links being Wikipedia, and a list of other site. Greg is left to sift though the list of links to figure out the answer himself. But Greg didn't ask the question" Give me a list of links about New York City Steam", he actually asked the question, "Tell me about New York City Steam". Those are two different things, and Google cannot tell the difference between them. Even if it could tell the difference between them, Google does not have the content that can answer the question directly -- it just has scraped content.

So because Google can't answer the question it puts Wikipedia at the top. Google thinks Wikipedia is the answer to Greg's question, and Google's ranking system is built to promote high "authority" sites like Wikipedia. But, as we all, know there are many problems with Wikipedia's data. It is not the best fit for many questions, and its size distorts the playing field. One example is the extension of Wikipedia into news -- as soon as a Wikipedia page is made about some minor person (the pickup artist comes to mind) it instantly goes to the top of the search rankings whether or not the page is any good. So because Google can't answer the question it promotes Wikipedia, which answers the question poorly. Readers get screwed.

The problem is even worse for people search. I've written a blog post on this here: http://newslines.org/blog/googles-black-hole/
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Ross McPherson
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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:49 pm

Europe wants to deconstruct Google because of its monopolistic tendencies:

Maybe some of the gurus here can offer me the hope that this will somehow end up deconstructing Wikipedia.
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Re: Steamed about Wikipedia

Unread post by Textnyymi » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:01 pm

Europe wants to deconstruct Google because of its monopolistic tendencies:

Maybe some of the gurus here can offer me the hope that this will somehow end up deconstructing Wikipedia.
From the article: The EU is investigating Google because other companies have complained that the search engine favours its own results, and Schmidt argues that it’s because Google just wants to be as direct as possible and save users from having to click around.
Clicking around! What a chore! What a PAIN IN THE ASS for any user who is using a mouse or a touchpad! How can people live by knowing they can't have all they want immediately with a single click! And Schmidt knows what people want, doesn't he?

Or is he saying that people don't really know what they like and don't know what they want to search? Every time on Youtube i get a tab which reads "what to watch", like i'm a complete moron and i'm unable to decide what to do. :banana: