Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Sparky » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:53 am

If they plan to apply WP:Dick blocks for being a pain in the ass on an article talk page I have several better test cases in mind than this.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Triptych » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:45 pm

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:44 am

Honest to god, I really don't understand the hate for Dennis.

Dennis isn't the problem, he's not even closely related to being the problem, he's part of the solution.

Good dude. Reformer. +++++

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Kumioko » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:38 am

Randy from Boise wrote:Honest to god, I really don't understand the hate for Dennis.

Dennis isn't the problem, he's not even closely related to being the problem, he's part of the solution.

Good dude. Reformer. +++++

RfB
I totally agree, I think Dennis is one of the better admins in fact. I don't agree with everything he says, like the comment a couple days ago he made that its impossible to enforce civility, but generally I do agree with him.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Triptych » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:18 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:Honest to god, I really don't understand the hate for Dennis.

Dennis isn't the problem, he's not even closely related to being the problem, he's part of the solution.

Good dude. Reformer. +++++
Bad dude. Cyberbully. Asshat. ------

Instead of just saying why the "hate" why don't you dispute in words why the quote (and it's a quote) is not the gloating, jocular banter of a cyberbully that has just changed a newbie's attitude toward Wikipedia forever?

Randy, you remind me of a little yappy dog, arf arfing his way around Dennis' ankles. I wonder if you actually are sincere or if you're positioning yourself for your next RFA. "Another accomplishment of mine is that I always defend WP:AN/ANI's prominent administrators from criticism at Wikipediocracy." Really, you belong with those people, I don't understand how you blew it the first time.

We've documented Dennis' cyberbullying up and down this thread, and I recall further the time where he and Drmies likened the editors they were blocking to "slugs."
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:38 pm

Randy from Boise wrote: Dennis Brown is one of the best administrators at WP. He is an anti-cabalist, not a cabalist. You are confused.
:lookdownnose:

Very press shy, though, that Dennis Brown. I remember asking him if I could email him some general questions about the challenges of Keeping the Gates once. He politely declined. He also declined to give me a single diff explaining my Dec 2016 banning at the request of an unCirt wearing a cloak of invisibility. A bit like MastCell refusing HiddenTempo a diff.

Anyway, this post isn't about me. TDK has some questions for you Mr. Brown. I gather you're big on WP:ADMINACCT. I also gather the action is over at WIA these days and I'm not sure you've updated your RSS feed yet. The basic question is; how can you simultaneously puff your buddy's business while blocking an account claiming to be an investigative journalist (because you seem to think they're trying to drum up business)? And why did you ban him just after KnightShift said they would talk?

I also noticed that, on September 11, 2017, you stopped considering a special Arbitration Enforcement rule to be a defining characteristic of your Sheriff (John) Brown personahood.

edit: punctuation.
Last edited by Bezdomni on Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by thekohser » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:18 pm

Bezdomni wrote:I also gather the action is over at WIA these days...
If by "action", you mean one or two guys echoing each other and patting each other on the back.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:21 pm

thekohser wrote:
Bezdomni wrote:I also gather the action is over at WIA these days...
... echoing ...
lots of frogs jumpin' in that pond, massa Greg. I thought I even saw you and Timbo of the Rulez. ^^

and it's une grenouille incidentally, before you go conjuring up images of pépé to spoil the boiling pot o feu.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Anthonyhcole » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:34 pm

Good call, Dennis.

TLDR: Smartmatic (T-H-L) is a sus' voting machine manufacturer who, for some months now, has been paying a PR company to neutralise their hatchet-job of a Wikipedia article. See this COI noticeboard thread. After clumsily outing themselves several times over, one of them turned up pretending (badly) to be a journalist, asking questions of those involved in three disputes - including the Smartmatic situation. They are so bad at this it's funny (and a bit sad).
Last edited by Anthonyhcole on Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:57 pm

Yeah, ok. It is an intriguing story that tdk (or the block notice) may not have given the whole picture of by focusing on procedure and policy. Maybe it's clear... and there is secret evidence. I was distracted by that weird battle about the Houston ministry which seems on the surface at least to be completely unrelated. I've looked at the SPI reports related to the story you mention, and at that COI thread, and I didn't find "investigativereporter" mentioned. I take it it's some secret evidence or a desire not to be hassled that requires gagging the accused shunned. There's other fires to put out, I suppose.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by thekohser » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:24 pm

Bezdomni wrote:Yeah, ok.
Is that the new way we apologize for casting aspersions that rapidly turn out to be based on one's own false assumptions?
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:35 pm

No. "yeah ok" shows I'm happy to acknoweldge that there are unknowns for the moment. What is known is that someone was blocked and gagged for claiming to be an investigative reporter. This seems like a breach of policy to me. It's the same MO as blocking someone for calling out a house astroturfer who wrote 18 biased book reviews in less than a month... had he blocked Cirt back in December there would have been no drama. I know that story very well, and funny thing, Dennis Brown was involved in that too. So, no, I'm not going to sweat it if there is some evidence I haven't seen yet. His track record isn't very good so far.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:02 am

thekohser wrote: ... apologize for casting aspersions ...
By the way, Dennis is free to apologize for casting aspersions on me in December based on his false assumptions. AGF we can say that Cirt did seem to pull the wool over a lot of admins' eyes with his Sagecandor act, which to this date has still not even been acknowledged by those who banned me for pointing out the guy's astroturfing in a topic area he was banned from.

Of course the aspersions Dennis cast were used as a basis for Cirt to make more accusations in June, some of which the WMF is still broadcasting to the world. So yes, you're right to call for those who falsely cast aspersions to apologize. I don't expect Dennis to, but I will be happily surprised if and when he does admit he made a mistake (twice: one of commission in December, one of omission in June).

Also, I do apologize mildly for claiming that the information he added to his buddy's company's wikipage was puffery. What he added was pretty inert and is probably factual: he just indicated a product/service that wasn't listed on his customer's page based on his client telling him more about what he did. I do hope his buddy buys him a pint for his trouble (and maybe gives him a reference ^^).

Other than that I'm not sure what you could consider to be an aspersion in my notifying Dennis that people had legitimate questions about his block (similar questions were raised on WP as it turns out §§). If you feel like being more specific, Greg, the floor is yours. If not, that's ok too.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by thekohser » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:14 am

Bezdomni wrote:If you feel like being more specific, Greg, the floor is yours. If not, that's ok too.
I yield the floor.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:02 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:54 am

Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.
I think this contribution is enough.

One of the worst blocks I ever saw on Wikipedia, by one of the worst admins, all just brushed under the carpet like it never even happened. And now you just drop by here and pretend like you have explained any of it, like anyone would find a single answer in the link you gave.

Still, it's Dennis Brown. Anyone who expects different, is a fool. You get more accountability from Black Kite, and after his brief visit he'll be gone now for as long as it takes for people to forget about the Wereith thing. There must be like a tactical training course they put them through, WP:Escape and Evasion.

Hilarious, given how the enforceability of the ToU and Admins doing paid editing are big themes in the current ArbCom election.

Hey Dennis, didn't I see you once say you were considering a run for ArbCom? Seems like you'd get in no problem now, would at least make the race a genuine choice between the different philosophies of how to manage Wikipedia.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:12 am

Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:27 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:48 am

Oh wow.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... Forcepoint
The reader doesn't have a "right" to know which edits are paid or not, we don't differentiate........Frankly, that paragraph in our COI behavioral guideline is just silly and misguided. I added a null edit saying that his edits were paid editing, to satisfy this misguided guideline.
Seriously, that is an ArbCom run I would pay to watch. Dead man walking...ready made dog food for the Doc James/Jytdog party bus.

This is clearly not a guy who makes good decisions when the ToU-Paid is involved. He has questions to answer, and indeed people have directly put questions to him. And yet he has clammed up, giving bogus statements about how it's all self a explanatory. The conclusion is obvious - he went way outside outside the lines on this one, and is hoping and praying nobody looks into it.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Volunteer Marek » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:51 am

CrowsNest wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.
I'll do it. Troll account from a genuine crazy person. Created to fuck with people.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:11 am

Volunteer Marek wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.
I'll do it. Troll account from a genuine crazy person. Created to fuck with people.
Oh right. Yes, OK then. Is this a takes one to know one deal? Funny how often dodgy blocks on Wikipedia's are retro-excused by claiming the person was just a crazy troll. The last crazy troll they blocked created 900 articles and got onto the arbcom ballot, apparently in some really long game, to troll the entire community. As an explanation, it of course makes no sense, and is basically trolling in of itself. But hey, they had nothing else, so they ran with it. Good to see the tactic is transferrable.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:29 am

How often does a guy need to be told something? I count no less than three attempts to explain the issue (parallel merging), and yet the guy pretends like he's deaf each and every time. Hasn't been seen there for six days now, so must have concluded he couldn't keep getting away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... o_requests

As has been pointed out to him repeatedly, you can understand the issue in one edit. It's not just novices who would baulk at the sight of this edit, I think it would have 99% of editors and most admins raising the alarm about a malfunctioning bot...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =802819987

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:02 am

CrowsNest wrote:
Volunteer Marek wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.
I'll do it. Troll account from a genuine crazy person. Created to fuck with people.
Oh right. Yes, OK then. Is this a takes one to know one deal? Funny how often dodgy blocks on Wikipedia's are retro-excused by claiming the person was just a crazy troll. The last crazy troll they blocked created 900 articles...
This one created maybe a dozen inflammatory edits to talk pages. Bye bye!!!

RfB

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:20 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
Volunteer Marek wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.
I'll do it. Troll account from a genuine crazy person. Created to fuck with people.
Oh right. Yes, OK then. Is this a takes one to know one deal? Funny how often dodgy blocks on Wikipedia's are retro-excused by claiming the person was just a crazy troll. The last crazy troll they blocked created 900 articles...
This one created maybe a dozen inflammatory edits to talk pages. Bye bye!!!

RfB
What's inflammatory about posts like this?
Inquiry About Recent Dispute
Hello, I am reaching out to you about a recent dispute you were involved in on the administrator’s noticeboard for edit warring. From my understanding, you reported user Nitshift36 for edit warring on both the Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen articles. I am writing an in-depth article about the management of Wikipedia and I would love to interview you for my story. Would you be willing to talk to me more about this situation? --Investigativereporter (talk) 17:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Seems perfectly fine to me. Granted, Wikipedians are a skittish bunch, they get harassed and trolled and screwed with a lot, and like, it's totally never their fault, but they are supposed to AGF. To call this sort of approach inflammatory, is well into ABF territory, if not completely schizo-paranoid. Even so, the levels to which Dennis took the response, the stupid and contradictory nonsense he bombarded them with, no way is that justifiable, even if you simply suspect someone is out to cause mischief. He had no real grounds for what he did, unless Wikipedia is as hostile and paranoid as people think, and he must be praying every single day it wasn't a real journalist. Or at least he should if he had any sense, because this is still officially a case of a journalist being blocked because they wouldn't publicly broadcast their details to someone who dropped an ABF bomb on them, complete with utter lies and a bunch of half truths, acting as if they had the full authority of the WMF for doing what they did. Damn right he's not prepared to explain it here, journalists watch this place, and they're naturally not going to take kindly to either the direct messages or various inferences his actions contain.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:05 pm

Volunteer Marek wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.
I'll do it. Troll account from a genuine crazy person. Created to fuck with people.
Bingo. Self-evident to anyone who actually takes the time to read the histories. This is why I didn't get any hassle on wikipedia for making the block, only here.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:43 pm

As I recall Floquenbeam wasn't impressed. But then he didn't like me changing my "statement" to "defendant's statement" the 2nd time Cirt prosecuted me (in a named case1) either. I looked into the histories for a while and found nothing warranting a block. I remember Soft Lavender was in the middle of one of the three stories and assumed they gave you private information to back up their claims. Still, I imagine you may have blocked "investigative reporter" just on principle. That's what seems to happen to people who dig around into histories and ask too many questions. As Graaf said, a pro would ask, "now why are people showing up on WP with names like "investigative reportter" when it seems so blindingly obvious that such a person would act very differently"? What exactly is it that's so rotten in the state of Dennymarek that leads people to do such odd things, Sgt. Brown?

1 Only defendants are named at Arbitration Enforcement. Prosecutors like Cirt never are, so they more or less disappear in the archives.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm

Dennis Brown wrote:
Volunteer Marek wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... vereporter

It's all pretty self-explanatory. Sorry that I can't appologize, but someone has to do the dirty work. Just found this discussion, sorry that I don't have more to contribute to it.

Good block.

t
Have a go at explaining it then, if you think so. You can't just slap good old Dennis on the back and say good block, like this place is just an extension of Wikipedia.
I'll do it. Troll account from a genuine crazy person. Created to fuck with people.
Bingo. Self-evident to anyone who actually takes the time to read the histories. This is why I didn't get any hassle on wikipedia for making the block, only here.
I read the histories, so are you calling me an idiot?

And you're already lying here, you did get shit for the block - an admin colleague pointed out your block would be wrong if the person is in fact a journalist, because NOTHERE clearly doesn't apply, and your actions would be seen as hostile and totally inappropriate. They only accepted your block after the event because they also believe them to be a troll.

You didn't get any other push back, because Wikipedia is full of people who literally don't care who gets screwed, as long as it's not them. What's it to them that some random person gets the ABF treatment from you? Don't try and pretend like there is any level of oversight or review in such situations where a nobody is the victim of an admin colouring outside the lines, because everyone here will laugh in your face and give you a hundred examples proving there isn't.

You have nothing to show this person isn't a journalist. Literally nothing. Your interpretation of their posts as trolling is pretty pathetic, massively prejudicial, and based on nothing but bad faith and some bizarre ideas of how the industry operates. Yet what is self-evident, is that one of your many reasons why you blocked them was because you thought they might be a journalist, and you demanded they identify themselves to you, or be blocked as an undisclosed paid editor. Those are your words, so don't come here and deny it, lest you want to be seen as a lair. This is all still on record, your words, your reasoning.

Your entire conduct in this affair is riddled with lies. Where, for example, were they trying to exercise their "First Amendment rights"? What on Earth motivated you to even say that? It is not remotely self-explanatory to me as to how you reached these conclusions, so please explain, or confirm you think I am an idiot. Confirm that my postgraduate education is insufficient to understand what you claim about your own actions are self-evident.

With all that said, if you have at least now finally made up your mind what the block reason is, because your prior explanations are frankly all over the place, then kindly have the integrity to modify the block log and post a message making it clear that on your own investigation, you concluded this person is a crazy troll looking to fuck with people, and all other excuses are voided.

If you won't do that, then we are entitled to wonder, why all the secrecy and lies? Why are you seemingly trying to pin multiple contradictory block reasons on them, if it really is as simple as you say. It looks like deliberate obfuscation to me, a classic technique in corrupt enterprises. Want do you have against being transparent in your reasons, when ironically your decision seems to be based on another lie about their supposed lack of transparency, namely that they were unwilling to identify.

What is self-evident is that there is no policy that requires that, you just made it up basically, which calls into question your block unless you want to take it to the WMF Legal and have them approve it as a valid novel interpretation. And you didn't even wait to investigate if they already had identified himself in private, or indeed might or would in public if politely requested and with respect to their privacy (as opposed to threatened).

I will remind you, he actually said "I am happy to verify my status as a reporter.", at which point you locked him out of Wikipedia, repeating our bogus claims about how being an unidentified journalist is a violation of NOTHERE/PAID. That looks very bad, for you. Wikipedia is full of nasty people, so openly giving anyone their real life details just so you could let them edit, doesn't seem a fair trade. It seems like extortion of details the current ToU state he is not obliged to provide, to edit.

There is nothing about this block that is self-explanatory, unless the point you're trying to explain is what a Wikipedia admin can really get away with.

If your reply is merely to bullshit me, I will most likely try and see if I can get this case to the attention of the journalist profession, who absolutely won't condone your behaviour I am quite sure, and at the very least have WMF Legal make a statement about whether or not your statements are in line with their ToU or their desired public image, what with you seeming to think they can do what they like just because the are a "privately held corporation".

I remind you, you are not a representative of that corporation, your entire involvement in this matter was as a private US citizen who made a series of very bold claims about things you seem completely without standing to make. You're certainly not a laywer or a journalist. As someone who makes COI edits from their admin account in furtherance of their business interests, and is actively botching enforcement of the COI policy, it seems unlikely you even retain the confidence of the sections of the community who see themselves as the guardians of the ToU.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Kumioko » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:11 pm

Bezdomni wrote:As I recall Floquenbeam wasn't impressed. But then he didn't like me changing my "statement" to "defendant's statement" the 2nd time Cirt prosecuted me (in a named case1) either. I looked into the histories for a while and found nothing warranting a block. I remember Soft Lavender was in the middle of one of the three stories and assumed they gave you private information to back up their claims. Still, I imagine you may have blocked "investigative reporter" just on principle. That's what seems to happen to people who dig around into histories and ask too many questions. As Graaf said, a pro would ask, "now why are people showing up on WP with names like "investigative reportter" when it seems so blindingly obvious that such a person would act very differently"? What exactly is it that's so rotten in the state of Dennymarek that leads people to do such odd things, Sgt. Brown?

1 Only defendants are named at Arbitration Enforcement. Prosecutors like Cirt never are, so they more or less disappear in the archives.
The mere fact that Floquenbeam didn't like it gives it more credibility in my book. Floquenbeams way of greeting editors (and even admins sometimes) is by telling them to F off which is no one that should even be considered for adminship on Wikipedia let alone have the power he has. So yeah, his opinions don't carry much weight with me.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:36 pm

CrowsNest wrote:How often does a guy need to be told something? I count no less than three attempts to explain the issue (parallel merging), and yet the guy pretends like he's deaf each and every time. Hasn't been seen there for six days now, so must have concluded he couldn't keep getting away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... o_requests

As has been pointed out to him repeatedly, you can understand the issue in one edit. It's not just novices who would baulk at the sight of this edit, I think it would have 99% of editors and most admins raising the alarm about a malfunctioning bot...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =802819987
Caw. :afraid: What is this, anyway? If you scroll down on the authorship info page to InternetArchiveBot, you will find s/h/e/it edited the page only twice.

Any histmerge experts out there? It's almost worth searching your talk page archives for Forcepoint, DB.

I'm not sure I've understood shadow-botting and the weird magic of histmerge.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:27 am

CrowsNest's opinion of the block does not seem to be widely held, even here, Dennis.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:10 am

Zoloft wrote:CrowsNest's opinion of the block does not seem to be widely held, even here, Dennis.
I gathered. I could easily just ignore the thread, but that isn't my style, I have nothing to hide. As you know, I will at least poke in and opine a bit if I know the thread exists. Had I not done an actual search, I wouldn't have known. I've apologized for mistakes in the past, and I expect I will make more in the future. I still don't think this was one of those cases, and it appears a consensus agrees with me. When that isn't the case, any admin is free to revert me without prior permission. It says so on my user page.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by No Ledge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:43 am

I don't know who was blocked, nor why, so I make no comment on that. Jumping into this discussion, it's not easy to follow that aspect of this.

Regarding the hist-merge of Forcepoint (T-H-L) I agree with Dennis' handling of that, though it could have been done a different way to leave a clearer record in the logs.

There is a tool specially designed for doing history merges, Special:MergeHistory (T-H-L). This tool is not particularly well known, even among administrators. Prior to the introduction of this tool, the only way to do history merges was the way Dennis did it, by using the delete and restore buttons. This leaves a misleading record in the log that something was deleted to make way for a move, but all of the deleted edits were restored. With the newer tool, the merge is done without using the delete button. Many of the older admins, who learned to do them the old way, still do it that way because they are either unaware of the new tool, or never bothered to familiarize themselves with it.

Take a look at the merge log. The most recent 50 merges go all the way back to August 22; that gives you an indication of how little this tool is used. But if Forcepoint (T-H-L) were in this log, you would have a clearer record indicating that a history-merge was performed.

Go back to the next 50 edits from August 22, and you'll see one of my bots in action. I'm probably as familiar with this tool as any admin, and may be the only one that's written a bot to use it. That's to clean up old cut-paste moves of categories that were done before the MediaWiki software allowed categories to be moved. I need to get back to that project and finish it; there's a lot more work to do there yet.

Regarding the idea that paid editors must state in every single one of their edit summaries that the edit was a paid edit is a new one on me. I thought that placing a template on the talk page of every article that they edited was sufficient.

And that misconception about merging parallel histories. That's a no-no. The merging tool doesn't allow that. Only histories that do not overlap can be merged, sequentially.
It's technically possible to do a "spaghetti-merge" using the old delete, then restore technique that Dennis used. That's another reason to do merges using the tool, to remove any suspicions that parallel histories were merged.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by No Ledge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:16 am

Now that I take a closer look at this, I see that Dennis did merge a partially parallel range of history.

this diff between two Internet Archive bot edits gives it away. Clearly the edit in between was not a sequential edit. :ohnoes: Trout!

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:42 am

Dennis Brown wrote:
Zoloft wrote:CrowsNest's opinion of the block does not seem to be widely held, even here, Dennis.
I gathered. I could easily just ignore the thread, but that isn't my style, I have nothing to hide. As you know, I will at least poke in and opine a bit if I know the thread exists. Had I not done an actual search, I wouldn't have known. I've apologized for mistakes in the past, and I expect I will make more in the future. I still don't think this was one of those cases, and it appears a consensus agrees with me. When that isn't the case, any admin is free to revert me without prior permission. It says so on my user page.
Opinion here is 3-2 in my favour, the only support you're even getting is from committed Wikipedians who have a clear reason for staying on good terms with you, and zero reason to examine this block at all.

It's very simple Dennis, a lie is still a lie, a non-answer is still a non-answer, an evasion is still an evasion, whatever you say or do here to try here to convince people into thinking something different has just happened in our exchanges (even calling this an exchange is an insult to people's intelligence).

You've explained nothing and admitted nothing, despite being directly asked to. It is all there in black and white. I'm mystified as to why you even posted. This is your block, nobody else's. As far as I can tell, we only know for sure that one other admin has even looked at it, and he wasn't totally happy, so there's the reality as far as your claims for consensus support go.

I will give you one last opportunity. Tell us, here and now.....

1. What is the precise reason for the block? State it clearly and simply, so that it may be verified and if necessary, reviewed or appealed, as policy expects you to.

2. Do you stand by your claim that unidentified journalists are to be blocked as undisclosed paid editors? I will present your answer to WMF Legal and selected journalists, for comment.

3. Do you acknowledge the editor said he was willing to verify his status as a journalist, after which you muted his page and blocked his email access?

4. Do you admit to blocking this user indefinitely and without warning, and made his unblock conditional on him revealing his personally identifying information? Again, I will be forwarding your reply to WMF Legal.

5. Do you acknowledge you used your admin tools to leave this user with only UTRS as his means of appeal, knowing that system is heavily compromised by the presence of the very sort of editors who would want to silence a reporter looking into the things he said he was looking into?

You will not answer these questions Dennis, truthfully or otherwise, because to do so would reveal five pretty serious mistakes already. And there were more.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:27 am

No Ledge wrote:I don't know who was blocked, nor why, so I make no comment on that.
The who is easy. Investigativereporter (T-C-L)

The why, well, you can take your pick from a multitude of different contradictory reasons offered up by Dennis. His block log entry says "See talk page. WP:HERE and WP:paid at play." Their talk page is full of a whole bunch of stuff, most of which is either pure nonsense or massively ABF in nature.

The long and the short of it is this.....the guy posted various boilerplate messages to different users, asking if they would like to be interviewed for a piece he is preparing. Dennis didn't like this, so took unilateral action to block, and after the user had posted one single angry and confused reply, locked his talk page and disabled email, justifying it with the same nonsense, totally ignoring the user.

Only after all this was done, have some people suggested a possible motive, alleging he is part of a sock farm agitating in a specific dispute. However, crucially, Dennis has not commented on those allegations at all, and you can see why, because it is backed by pretty much nothing except one common article.

He has violated numerous basic policies, mostly admin specific policies, is possibly in hot water with WMF Legal on at least two counts, the ToU and privacy, and has opened up Wikipedia to a possible shit storm of negative publicity from the journalism profession.

All because he likes to be a rouge admin, and considers himself above explaining anything to us here. Even though he ridiculously claims that is why he came here.

He could clear up half the confusion if he just admitted what he appears closest to admitting here, that the only actual reason for the block that he would be prepared to defend or stand behind, is that he thought the guy was a crazy troll looking to fuck with people, simply because they didn't identify themselves upfront.

If he did that, and unprotected the talk page for a proper review of just how ABF that really is based on the user's actual edits, I'd lay off, because there would at least be a chance the guy would get due processs. But no, this is Dennis, he absolutely has to play the big man.

If he doesn't do that, if he chooses to stand behind all the nonsense, or worse, tries to deceptively retrofit the post-block article specific sock allegations onto his block reasoning, then he needs taking down, as he is clearly an admin who has completely lost the plot, and is well and truly operating on his own.

If you don't have at least an hour to devote to looking into it, and you don't see yourself ever dragging Dennis to ArbCom, then you probably shouldn't raise anybody's hopes here that you will look into it.

Unpacking corruption like this isn't for part timers, and it certainly isn't for people who have any faith in Dennis, because he'll take that faith and he'll use it to his advantage by obfuscating what really happened, and ignoring those of us who see it pretty clearly. He has already told several lies in here already, the sort of lies that people who just trust Dennis, don't even bother questioning.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:26 am

I'm making a few inquiries by email about this to get some independent information.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:31 pm

No Ledge wrote:I don't know who was blocked, nor why, so I make no comment on that. Jumping into this discussion, it's not easy to follow that aspect of this.

Regarding the hist-merge of Forcepoint (T-H-L) I agree with Dennis' handling of that, though it could have been done a different way to leave a clearer record in the logs.

There is a tool specially designed for doing history merges, Special:MergeHistory (T-H-L). This tool is not particularly well known, even among administrators. Prior to the introduction of this tool, the only way to do history merges was the way Dennis did it, by using the delete and restore buttons. This leaves a misleading record in the log that something was deleted to make way for a move, but all of the deleted edits were restored. With the newer tool, the merge is done without using the delete button. Many of the older admins, who learned to do them the old way, still do it that way because they are either unaware of the new tool, or never bothered to familiarize themselves with it.

Take a look at the merge log. The most recent 50 merges go all the way back to August 22; that gives you an indication of how little this tool is used. But if Forcepoint (T-H-L) were in this log, you would have a clearer record indicating that a history-merge was performed.

Go back to the next 50 edits from August 22, and you'll see one of my bots in action. I'm probably as familiar with this tool as any admin, and may be the only one that's written a bot to use it. That's to clean up old cut-paste moves of categories that were done before the MediaWiki software allowed categories to be moved. I need to get back to that project and finish it; there's a lot more work to do there yet.

Regarding the idea that paid editors must state in every single one of their edit summaries that the edit was a paid edit is a new one on me. I thought that placing a template on the talk page of every article that they edited was sufficient.

And that misconception about merging parallel histories. That's a no-no. The merging tool doesn't allow that. Only histories that do not overlap can be merged, sequentially.
It's technically possible to do a "spaghetti-merge" using the old delete, then restore technique that Dennis used. That's another reason to do merges using the tool, to remove any suspicions that parallel histories were merged.
I had forgotten about that page. I don't do a ton of hist-merges. They aren't a common practice. And as you stated in the next post, the histories were completely separate, so they were pretty much sequential. Had there been a lot of overlap, I would have had him make a single edit with full attribution. I prefer preserving histories where I can. Some editors kind of flip out when they see "paid editor", I don't. I want to encourage full disclosure and in order to have that, you have to have reasonable rules. Personally, I think the Foundation's TOU is designed to force them into hiding, and maybe they foolishly think they can catch them all at SPI. I don't know. I just know that you can't prevent paid editing, so you are better off managing it, and to manage it, you have to make it easier for the paid editor to comply with rules than to ignore them.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:39 pm

CrowsNest wrote:
No Ledge wrote:I don't know who was blocked, nor why, so I make no comment on that.
The who is easy. Investigativereporter (T-C-L)

[blah blah blah]

Unpacking corruption like this isn't for part timers, and it certainly isn't for people who have any faith in Dennis, because he'll take that faith and he'll use it to his advantage by obfuscating what really happened, and ignoring those of us who see it pretty clearly. He has already told several lies in here already, the sort of lies that people who just trust Dennis, don't even bother questioning.
You act like I get paid by the block. If I see a problem editor, I react in a way that I feel the community will support. I'm a volunteer, there is no profit in being an admin for me. And honestly, I don't read most of your posts because you are too long winded. You disagree with a block. So what. For every edit, admin action, arb action, etc that is done on Wikipedia, SOMEONE disagrees. You aren't a special little flower or the arbiter of all that is fair, you are just one person that disagrees. Instead of bloviating about it, you could always to go ANI or Arb if you think I've done something wrong. The guy wasn't here (there) to improve the encyclopedia. At best, he wanted to stir up some shit, write some articles and get paid for those articles. That is fine, but do it in your own backyard.

And yes, I love that I don't have to pull my punches here. Pardon me if I ignore you, this record doesn't seem to have a B side.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by No Ledge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:46 pm

Dennis Brown wrote:I had forgotten about that page. I don't do a ton of hist-merges. They aren't a common practice. And as you stated in the next post, the histories were completely separate, so they were pretty much sequential. Had there been a lot of overlap, I would have had him make a single edit with full attribution. I prefer preserving histories where I can. Some editors kind of flip out when they see "paid editor", I don't. I want to encourage full disclosure and in order to have that, you have to have reasonable rules. Personally, I think the Foundation's TOU is designed to force them into hiding, and maybe they foolishly think they can catch them all at SPI. I don't know. I just know that you can't prevent paid editing, so you are better off managing it, and to manage it, you have to make it easier for the paid editor to comply with rules than to ignore them.
The histories were not completely separate. There is a 5-edit overlap. If you had merged everything except the edit of 17:47, 28 September 2017, you would have a clean, continuous history, but your edit summary of 14:06, 5 November 2017 would be confusing... actually it's confusing either way, until you look at the right diff that bypasses the five overlapping edits. This is a gray area; there's really no great solution here, and once one realizes the history it's easy enough to follow. But very confusing at first look to a passer-by. An explanation on the talk page to clear up that confusion would be helpful. Or maybe delete the five intervening edits.

Anyhow, this isn't as big a deal as that block... I still haven't picked up on how the edits of Investigativereporter (T-C-L) relate to this. Seems like two separate issues.

I generally come down on your side of the aisle with regard to how paid editing should be managed.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by No Ledge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:06 pm

Hmm, upon closer look, I'm not sure how well the COI is being managed. This text was removed via merging in that sandbox:
The ability of public libraries, governments or other employers to block content based on ideology has proved controversial due to the subjects being blocked are controlled by an organization or even a single individual. The blocking of sites can exceed that which is required by bodies responsible for the oversight of these institutions, and, in the case of educational institutions, criticism has been leveled at the decision making process.

Due to these problems, a report issued in 2002 referred to Forcepoint as "censorware," although Bolo Bhi[who?] did not concur in 2012.

In 2004, Amnesty International listed Forcepoint as one of several foreign companies that had reportedly provided technology that was used to censor and control the use of the Internet in China.
The article still mentions that the company has an office in China, but no mention of how its products are used in that country.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:20 pm

Dennis Brown wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
No Ledge wrote:I don't know who was blocked, nor why, so I make no comment on that.
The who is easy. Investigativereporter (T-C-L)

[blah blah blah]

Unpacking corruption like this isn't for part timers, and it certainly isn't for people who have any faith in Dennis, because he'll take that faith and he'll use it to his advantage by obfuscating what really happened, and ignoring those of us who see it pretty clearly. He has already told several lies in here already, the sort of lies that people who just trust Dennis, don't even bother questioning.
You act like I get paid by the block. If I see a problem editor, I react in a way that I feel the community will support. I'm a volunteer, there is no profit in being an admin for me. And honestly, I don't read most of your posts because you are too long winded. You disagree with a block. So what. For every edit, admin action, arb action, etc that is done on Wikipedia, SOMEONE disagrees. You aren't a special little flower or the arbiter of all that is fair, you are just one person that disagrees. Instead of bloviating about it, you could always to go ANI or Arb if you think I've done something wrong. The guy wasn't here (there) to improve the encyclopedia. At best, he wanted to stir up some shit, write some articles and get paid for those articles. That is fine, but do it in your own backyard.

And yes, I love that I don't have to pull my punches here. Pardon me if I ignore you, this record doesn't seem to have a B side.
The only person who needs to change the record, is you. None of this latest reply was news, a lot of it has already been addressed upthread (which is why IGNORING PEOPLE is not a good strategy if you want to come here claiming the moral high ground, let alone the right to still be a Wikipedia admin).

You're still not listening, and you seem to have no intention of ever listening, only invoking the infallibility of Wikipedia (which we can prove even you don't believe in). When it comes down to it, it seems you're only interested in insulting me for having the audacity to question you, after not taking fuck off for an answer first time around. This isn't Wikipedia, you don't get to dictate to me when you have satisfied my concerns.

Why are you even here? Just to insult those who criticise you? Do you even appreciate that this place exists precisely because of the known issues with this statement: "you could always to go ANI or Arb if you think I've done something wrong." It takes a special level of arrogance to come to a Wikipedia criticism site to extol the supposed virtues of Wikipedia's governance system, in your own defence as a part of it.

Get the fuck out of here with this bullshit, before I do what I should have done all along and properly make you pay for this epic level of arrogance. That's me not pulling my punches.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Parabola » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:26 pm

CrowsNest wrote:
Get the fuck out of here with this bullshit, before I do what I should have done all along and properly make you pay for this epic level of arrogance. That's me not pulling my punches.
Someone should call the fire department before this badass posts another 8,000 words nobody will read

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:34 pm

No Ledge wrote:... I still haven't picked up on how the edits of Investigativereporter (T-C-L) relate to this. Seems like two separate issues.
There's no connection between the incidents, the only connection is how Dennis deals with them. He's being more aggressive and evasive over the block than the merging issue, because he has already realised it is more likely to lead to serious trouble in the real world if he allows the inquiry to reach its logical conclusions, although it is sadly the merge issue which has the greater potential for him to suffer at the hands of Wikipedia's internal correctional systems.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:10 pm

CrowsNest wrote:
No Ledge wrote:... I still haven't picked up on how the edits of Investigativereporter (T-C-L) relate to this. Seems like two separate issues.
There's no connection between the incidents, the only connection is how Dennis deals with them. He's being more aggressive and evasive over the block than the merging issue, because he has already realised it is more likely to lead to serious trouble in the real world if he allows the inquiry to reach its logical conclusions, although it is sadly the merge issue which has the greater potential for him to suffer at the hands of Wikipedia's internal correctional systems.
Now, I know damn well you aren't stupid enough to threaten me "in the real world". You can't possibly be that stupid.
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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by No Ledge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:23 pm

Someone with (WMF) in their user name is posting messages to random active users' talk pages:
== ANI Experiences survey ==

The Wikimedia Foundation Community health initiative (led by the Safety and Support and Anti-Harassment Tools team) is conducting a survey for en.wikipedia contributors on their experience and satisfaction level with the Administrator’s Noticeboard/Incidents. This survey will be integral to gathering information about how this noticeboard works - which problems it deals with well, and which problems it struggles with.

The survey should take 10-20 minutes to answer, and your individual responses will not be made public. The survey is delivered through Google Forms. The privacy policy for the survey describes how and when Wikimedia collects, uses, and shares the information we receive from survey participants and can be found here:

*2017 AN/Incidents Survey Privacy Statement

If you would like to take this survey, please sign up on this page, and a link for the survey will be mailed to you via Special:Emailuser.

*Sign up here to receive a link to a survey

Thank you on behalf of the Support & Safety and Anti-Harassment Tools Teams
This method of "advertising" and the questions likely being asked doesn't seem that far afield from what Investigativereporter (T-C-L) was after. Should we block (WMF) for being "NOT HERE"?

Too bad Investigativereporter (T-C-L) was email blocked so they have no means of requesting a survey.

What would you think if the US Congress blocked all reporters from entering the Capitol in Washington DC because they were "NOT HERE" to make laws?

Oh right, everyone but the leadership is already blocked from the back rooms where they craft the bills they try to sneak by the public with 2 am votes.
No coffee? OK, then maybe just a little appreciation for my work out here?

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:55 pm

Dennis Brown wrote:
CrowsNest wrote:
No Ledge wrote:... I still haven't picked up on how the edits of Investigativereporter (T-C-L) relate to this. Seems like two separate issues.
There's no connection between the incidents, the only connection is how Dennis deals with them. He's being more aggressive and evasive over the block than the merging issue, because he has already realised it is more likely to lead to serious trouble in the real world if he allows the inquiry to reach its logical conclusions, although it is sadly the merge issue which has the greater potential for him to suffer at the hands of Wikipedia's internal correctional systems.
Now, I know damn well you aren't stupid enough to threaten me "in the real world". You can't possibly be that stupid.
What are you implying? Everything you need to know about what that statement means, has been explained upthread. It is not my fault you clearly are by your own admission, so stupid as to choose what not to read and only join in when you feel like it, meaning you make faulty assumptions like this. And I am generously assuming this is the explanation for your confusion, since the alternative (that you're trying to claim I have criminal intent based on an out of context quote) would merely blacken your reputation even more.

One more reminder Dennis, this isn't Wikipedia, what comes naturally to you there as you play your games and strut your stuff, will not serve you well here. Talk to me like I am an adult who is not stupid, and you might get somewhere. Keep fucking me around, treating me like a little bitch, and yes, I will absolutely find a way for you to be held accountable in the real world, for the things you refuse to explain or justify here, or on Wikipedia, to my satisfaction.

You're the one who presented yourself to the world as someone enforcing the terms of a private corporation you do not speak for, on someone claiming to be a journalist, and who, if he had complied to your demands for his personal details, could have faced real world consequences if the block had not been lifted. If the potential consequences of that decision not being seen the way you want it to is now troubling you, well, you had your chance to be nice and answer a few simple questions posed by someone who quite clearly isn't stupid.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Zoloft » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:35 am

Zoloft wrote:I'm making a few inquiries by email about this to get some independent information.
The people who answered me had two responses:
Some ignored Investigativereporter (T-C-L)
The ones who engaged with the editor found that they were a crank.
Good block.

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by CrowsNest » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 am

Zoloft wrote:
Zoloft wrote:I'm making a few inquiries by email about this to get some independent information.
The people who answered me had two responses:
Some ignored Investigativereporter (T-C-L)
The ones who engaged with the editor found that they were a crank.
Good block.
I'm not sure you understand what I'm even objecting to here. The content of the actual mails is irrelevant to the soundness of the block, namely the procedural and policy mistakes that underpin it. If you think otherwise, then tell me how/why it magically becomes a bad block if you had got a different result? Whatever you would have found, it wouldn't have changed Dennis' reasons for believing what he did was correct.

Sometimes that's OK, sometimes you have to take a gamble and make predictions based on incomplete datasets to protect the 'pedia and risk the odd false positive, but this was not one of those times. Policy is clear on where the distinction lies, what the necessary pre-conditions are, what tests/steps to do are. Policy is clear on what is a sensible precaution and what is an aggressively hostile act of bad faith.

I have no idea what policy says about creating novel interpretations of the ToU or privacy policy, but I'm damn sure it doesn't say fuck it, you're an admin, so just do it and let other people handle it if the sky falls in. Remember, he didn't even invoke IAR here, so expecting to see an adherence to policy and general good practice is reasonable. Colouring outside the lines in a fashion that is very IARish but not declared as such, is more his style, as seen in the merge incident.

I sincerely hope you haven't just done this solely to throw a spanner in the works and basically make it impossible to get him to admit his actual mistakes and take some actual responsibility for his actions. Not that he was going to anyway, but he certainly won't be now!

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:35 pm

Zoloft wrote: The ones who engaged with the editor found that they were a crank.
Speaking of crankiness, Nihlus (T-C-L) (who apparently has been around for 4 months) didn't like not getting his PageMover permissions as soon as he asked. Callannecc had no qualms handing the "most sensitive unbundled right" back to Sagecandor after a perfunctory question.

I wonder who sent email to DB telling him that the investigative reporter was cranky. Was it SoftLavender? Nihlus? NightShift?

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Re: Dennis Brown, admin-about-town

Unread post by tarantino » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:54 pm

CrowsNest, your hostility is not welcome here.

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