Media Viewer - A new hope

We examine the less than successful stories of the Wikimedia Foundation to create and use technology. The poster boy for this forum is Visual Editor.
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:25 pm

thekohser wrote:Let me FTFY.
Sure, but to be fair, it's not like the Wikipedians themselves are paying the WMF to use the software, and they can still turn it off fairly easily. (I might add that my own attempts as a non-user to turn it off only seem to last for the current session, which is annoying, at least for me - I'm assuming logged-in users don't have that problem.)

One might argue that many of the (registered) users are also donors, in which case they are indirectly paying, but that's a difficult case to make - IOW, most people wouldn't assume people are donating mostly because they want them to keep the software as-is.

What it really boils down to is the value of time. A registered WP user can basically look at the situation in two ways. The first is, "I'm putting in my valuable time (time is money!) to help build your website and you are getting in the way." The second is, "I'm putting in my valuable time to help build our website and you're treating it like it's your website, when in fact you're really just a glorified free-hosting service - and by the way, you're also making it harder for me to do this." (There's also a third way: "You bastards are forcing me to use your stupid website to prevent obvious falsehoods from ruining my business and/or personal reputation, and this is just making it worse, you bastards," but I'll be charitable here and assume that's a small-minority perspective.) Both attitudes will lead to angry feelings if the WMF doesn't back off, but the users have always been encouraged to take an attitude that leads to the second of those two perspectives, not the first, when in fact the first is much closer to reality.

The point is, it's always been crystal-clear that the WMF doesn't really care about the value of users' time, in spite of what they say. But they're probably also realistic enough to know that most users will turn off the MediaViewer as soon as they see it, never to use it again, and what's their alternative - hire real beta-testers? No way. If they think it's ego-deflating to have WP users criticize them and file lots of bug reports, wait 'til they start having professionals do it. At least with the WP users, they can shrug off most bug reports as "sour grapes" or "trolling." With professionals, they might have to actually own up to their own limitations as programmers - I'm sure nobody there wants that, under any circumstances.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by HRIP7 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:18 am

Carcharoth, one of the arbitrators in charge of the case, posted some proposals on the Workshop page a couple of days ago. Excerpts:
Peteforsyth, by inserting sitewide code that he did not understand, and by taking hasty actions to implement the result of an RfC where he had participated and expressed strong views ([23], [24], [25], [26]), fell short of the standards expected of administrators.

The revert by Eloquence/Erik Moeller was justified, but he failed to explicitly state in his edit summary whether he was acting in his community or WMF role (the edit could have been carried out using his local administrator rights). By subsequently stating that he had carried out the revert in his WMF role (using his 'editinterface' permission from his staff global rights) he asserted jurisdiction for the WMF over the editing of common.js. He also asserted his right to use his 'userrights' permission (again, from his staff global rights) to desysop if necessary, though this was not a situation requiring an emergency desysop. These assertions were an unnecessary and arbitrary use of staff power in a situation where local processes (with more authority) would have been sufficient.

The subsequent apology by Eloquence/Erik Moeller for his heavy-handedness failed to mitigate the effect of such assertions.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by The Adversary » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:23 am

Back in July, Brion Vibber (who is Lead Software Architect in WMF) said this:
Perhaps it's time to stop calling self-selected surveys of a tiny subset of our user base "community consensus".

The vast majority of our user base never logs in, never edits, and never
even hears about these RfC pages. Those are the people we're making an
encyclopedia for.
And Marc A. Pelletier followed the same story:
ultimately we are *all* beholden to the readers.
I wish Vibber and Pelletier could explain that if WMF works for the *reader*, why then spend money on projects like the VE, or Flow? These are projects which have absolutely *no* interest for anyone who "never logs in, never edits". What Vibber and Pelletier claim is simply contradicted by the facts, counted in WMF money allocated to these projects.
Not very clever.

Consensus on commons, 3 August:
Community consensus is the Media Viewer will be disabled for non-logged-in users and logged-in users

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:33 am

Jesus Risker, get your tongue out of the WMF's ass...
Even the most trivial change of appending _(WMF) is too much for this brainless harridan.


Admin accounts aren't labeled so employee accounts shouldn't be!
Some thoughts: We do not require that any enwiki administrator, bureaucrat, checkuser, oversighter, template editor, reviewer, edit filter manager, or person with any user rights identify their rights on their userpage. As well, you do not clarify why such an expectation should be project-specific when you are talking about global user rights.

I'm the first to agree with the separation of accounts (despite the greater-than-usual difficulties in switching accounts, and the strong emotional attachment that most users have with respect to their username), but one needs to keep in mind that some of the applicable accounts are essentially impossible to SUL at this point, and thus are not eligible for global rename. Staff work on hundreds of wikis, not just enwiki. A global perspective is required here. Risker (talk) 10:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
You can't force employees ot wear nametags!
That's when the software is due to be drafted, Wnt. However, the discussion of hierarchies of who gets the right to usernames, plus the discussion of what names to move accounts to, has yet to take place; all the stuff that was suggested before is not in place and is not enforceable. While some staff accounts may be fairly simple to unify and then rename to a "WMF" username, some are apparently quite complex and will require negotiation in a few different places. (I've not personally looked into it, but I'm aware some of the staff couldn't SUL before.) I'll just say it's not only appropriate but very important that a tool that will affect only registered users, and registered users potentially from every WMF project, should be the subject of extended and vigorous discussion; while I don't think there's much question as to the value, I think we can all recognise how personal usernames are, and that forcing someone to change usernames against their will (in deference to some other user who may never have edited their project or even projects in their language) is going to take some pretty significant diplomacy. Given recent history, I'm sure you'd agree it is not something that should be rushed, and that there should specifically be outreach to the people who will be most directly affected. Risker (talk) 22:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Anne Clin, friend of the little man!
Absolutely they do. Bad code is bad code, and has no place on a major website. You've neglected to include performance issues, adverse effects to readers (as opposed to the editors and admins who seem to think they own the site), and code that has been inserted without proper review and discussion. Whether or not the RFC close was appropriate does not mean that the code itself was appropriate. Risker (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Cause you were all over Flow and VisualEditor when that bad code was released!
I'm sorry, Pine, but I do not actually care if someone from the community eventually got around to undoing what was clearly an improper edit. And I genuinely believe that any admin who did so ran a very serious risk of getting himself or herself involved in an edit war. It had every earmark of being a 'true believer' issue rather than a practical one. I also disagree with you about alienating readers; there is a significant segment of the community (unfortunately one that includes a lot of administrators and longtime editors) who place "community rights" over and above benefit for readers. Whether or not that group want to admit it, Media Viewer is a lot closer to what readers want than being taken to a weird page that is full of all kinds of information that's irrelevant to 99.8% of readers (just like the history page of an article is). And there's a problem with your theory of community consensus, in that it seems you believe it only occurs in RFCs. That's patently wrong, and always has been. RFCs are only one method of determining consensus. The fact that somewhere between 9000 and 14,000 editors *chose* to enable Media Viewer before it became default is also a consensus, one that far, far outweighed the number of editors who participated in the RFC, let alone the even tinier number who supported removing the default. (At the time of the switch, there were approximately 5000 users who had selected "all beta testing" - even if all of them are discounted, that still leaves 9000 editors who chose to enable MV.) Risker (talk) 23:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Still hoping for a job?
Even the WMF isn't that desperate.

I believe that there are multiple other pages that refer to the use of staff rights, but they are workplace policies that are not public. (This is appropriate - very few organizations publish their workplace policies, particularly if they refer to the potential for disciplinary action.) I note that nobody has actually asked that question, so there is no reasonable way for the committee to comment on this, nor does the committee have a place in determining workplace policy for the WMF. Risker (talk) 10:15, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Never mind the fact that this is a public charity and that the WMF *IS* publishing their employee handbook soon.
The stupid... IT BURNS!!!

The point that all of these numbskulls are dancing around is that Erik Mo:eller and Fabrice Florin have said that they (and by extension the WMF) will not allowed MediaViewer to be turned off by default. Ever.

Everything else is a sideshow.

They are the best "hasten the day" people I've ever seen.
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by HRIP7 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:27 am

The Adversary wrote:I wish Vibber and Pelletier could explain that if WMF works for the *reader*, why then spend money on projects like the VE, or Flow? These are projects which have absolutely *no* interest for anyone who "never logs in, never edits". What Vibber and Pelletier claim is simply contradicted by the facts, counted in WMF money allocated to these projects.
Not very clever.
Good point. Readers are merely interested in accurate information, and this is an area that the Wikimedia Foundation spends no money on. By their own admission they have not been able to figure out a means to measure content quality.
The Adversary wrote:Consensus on commons, 3 August:
Community consensus is the Media Viewer will be disabled for non-logged-in users and logged-in users
So far, no one seems to have tried to edit the MediaWiki:Common.js file. The last comment on the file's talk page was nearly a month ago.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:54 am

Maybe the final outcome will be that the ArbCom and everyone will agree on what needs to be done, but nobody will do it so Moeller will get his way.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:04 pm

Oh Risker!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =619945332
I realise that there is this overwhelming prejudice on English Wikipedia against anything that happens anywhere in the wiki-universe if this project has not been consulted in depth and has not somehow or other authorized such actions to take place; the fact that we can't even get ourselves organized enough to clean up our own messes (such as RFA) is immaterial to this philosophy. I suppose I should not be surprised to see the arbitrators endorsing such enwiki-centric, provincial thinking. But it's time to get over it and become part of the actual Wikimedia world of hundreds of projects. There are dozens of ways that people can keep apprised of technical and software updates planned, to comment on them, to encourage awareness of them, to participate in testing - but it requires people to think globally and act locally. This tech ambassador program has been around for a couple of years, for example, and there are dozens of enwiki editors who participate to some degree or other. But unless community members bother to bookmark or otherwise keep up with forthcoming tech updates, to actually make some effort to inform themselves, we're just going to see constant repeats of the kind of actions that have ultimately led to this RFAR. The responsibility for communication doesn't simply lie with the WMF (which has, indeed, communicated quite a bit about this) - it also lies with the community in actually paying attention to information that is made available. Risker (talk) 12:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
"You fools don't realiZe how good the WMF engineers are to you!!"

If en.wp doesn't want the WMF's latest offer, then what the fuck do you care, Anne?
Are you determined to be the most quisly quisling around?

P.S. Nice edit summary
(→‎Communications, discussions and liaisons: it's a two-way street - ignoring information that's available is just as pernicious)
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:12 pm

Fucking ow!
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wi ... 73696.html
Theoretical overlap, perhaps. People in the role of "Community Liaison,
Product Development and Strategic Change Management", a title Orwell would
be proud of, are not doing what's being described in this e-mail. The
current community liaisons are really paid advocates and they're tasked
with shilling bad products
. This isn't the fault of the people in these
roles, many of whom I know and respect, but we should be honest that their
role is much closer to that of a marketer or public relations person.

Substantive, meaningful communication between the people building software
and the people using software is the goal, but the current implementation
dramatically fails, as a number of software projects from the past two
years have demonstrated and continue to demonstrate.

And of course there are separate "community advocacy" and "engineering
community" teams. The Wikimedia Foundation staff is heavily bloated and I
very much doubt that hiring additional staff will improve matters.

Gryllida's proposal has merit, but implementing it probably requires more
than a small team. Part of the issue is that thousands of editors' views
are discounted in favor of the latest hare-brained ideas from Wikimedia
Foundation middle management
. And while many of these ideas can be, and
eventually are, killed or mitigated, it's draining work that's likely more
easily accomplished with a larger pool of focused energy.

MZMcBride
Spot on!
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:32 am

Vigilant wrote:If en.wp doesn't want the WMF's latest offer, then what the fuck do you care, Anne?
Are you determined to be the most quisly quisling around?
Anne's many things, but scarcely a quisling. That would imply that if shock troops led by say yourself took over Wikipedia, she'd be happy to lead a [non sock] puppet administration following your orders.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:40 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Vigilant wrote:If en.wp doesn't want the WMF's latest offer, then what the fuck do you care, Anne?
Are you determined to be the most quisly quisling around?
Anne's many things, but scarcely a quisling. That would imply that if shock troops led by say yourself took over Wikipedia, she'd be happy to lead a [non sock] puppet administration following your orders.
No. If the WMF comes up with a new software called, say AnalMangler, Anne will be the first to call it the best thing since sliced bread and to opine, at length, on how the readers and editors DO NOT OWN this webpage and they better learn to enjoy their shiny new anal mangling.
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Jim » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:47 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Vigilant wrote:If en.wp doesn't want the WMF's latest offer, then what the fuck do you care, Anne?
Are you determined to be the most quisly quisling around?
Anne's many things, but scarcely a quisling. That would imply that if shock troops led by say yourself took over Wikipedia, she'd be happy to lead a [non sock] puppet administration following your orders.
What an interesting thought. So one would need an army of, how many, sockpuppets would you think, for this endeavour?
Has anyone ever tried to mobilise this many socks for "war" or "invasion", rather than just petty deception and narcissism, do you know?
How would one go about "controlling" this many socks without just getting caught and made to feel and look foolish?
Sounds like a pretty "tangled web" to "weave".
It doesn't seem very likely to me, but then I have no experience or expertise in that area.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:36 pm

It would take hundreds of people, maybe a thousand, but they could get each other through RfA and RfB, and then flood the ArbCom elections.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Jim » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:41 pm

Poetlister wrote:It would take hundreds of people, maybe a thousand, but they could get each other through RfA and RfB, and then flood the ArbCom elections.
In years to come, historians documenting the unexpected annexation of wikipedia, in the latter half of the 2010s decade, by sock-shock-troops, will look back on this post as a crucial and pivotal turning point in the revolution, likely dubbing it the "Poetlister manifesto". :blink: Legends of the folk heroes who led this putsch, though clouded by anonymity, will be legion. Their associated images will be many and varied (though eerily familiar to some). Songs will be sung.

That the "wikipedia2" they subsequently turned it into was largely indistinguishable from the original will be oft cited to our great-grandchildren as an example of the "illusion of change" which afflicted that generation.

Wikipedia3, however, well... that was a whole other story (although essentially the same one, of course, with better snacks)...

Until then - here's a message from our sponsors: Sir, you are a visionary. :rotfl:

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:47 am

Jim wrote:
Poetlister wrote:It would take hundreds of people, maybe a thousand, but they could get each other through RfA and RfB, and then flood the ArbCom elections.
In years to come, historians documenting the unexpected annexation of wikipedia, in the latter half of the 2010s decade, by sock-shock-troops, will look back on this post as a crucial and pivotal turning point in the revolution, likely dubbing it the "Poetlister manifesto". :blink: Legends of the folk heroes who led this putsch, though clouded by anonymity, will be legion. Their associated images will be many and varied (though eerily familiar to some). Songs will be sung.

That the "wikipedia2" they subsequently turned it into was largely indistinguishable from the original will be oft cited to our great-grandchildren as an example of the "illusion of change" which afflicted that generation.
William Butler Yeats wrote:The Great Day

Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
The Who wrote:Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Jim » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:25 pm

Kiefer wrote:
William Butler Yeats wrote:The Great Day

Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
The Who wrote:Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
... The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Stout fellow, that Orwell... :bow:

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:16 am

Interesting edit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... d_decision

Makes me think that the ARBCOM is not at all impressed with Herr Mo:eller.
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Hex » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:29 am

My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia? -- JimboWales
Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Jim » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:58 pm

That's what the Foundation agreed to, just for Commons, I think, on the basis that they conceded MV got in the way of image gnoming. It was setting default off for all users logged in or out they wouldn't agree to, even though that's what the Commons RFC wanted.

Link...
The primary purpose of Media Viewer is to give readers access to larger images in a more intuitive way, without leaving the context of the page they are in. On Wikimedia Commons, readers often discover images linked from other Wikimedia projects, where Media Viewer is already enabled by default. To avoid confusion, we want to make sure that when readers access these images on Commons, they are displayed in the same way as on their source projects.
For this reason, the Wikimedia Foundation is not prepared to disable Media Viewer for logged-out users on Commons at this time.

We also recognize that for logged-in users on Wikimedia Commons, showing Media Viewer by default can get in the way of performing normal day-to-day curation tasks that are core to the project’s unique purpose. While it’s easy to disable Media Viewer, we understand the desire for a default setting that’s more aligned with that purpose, since image curation happens at such a large scale on Commons. We also recognize that for users who have disabled Media Viewer on another project like Wikipedia, having to disable it again on Wikimedia Commons can be frustrating.
For these reasons, we are prepared to disable Media Viewer for logged-in users on Commons at this time -- because of its special function as a shared multimedia file repository.

This is not an ideal solution. The overlap between logged-in and logged-out users is imperfect, and there is potential for confusion as users transition between logged-in and logged-out states. We may want to revisit this approach as the Media Viewer itself develops, or if we find that these new default settings are too confusing.

Fabrice Florin (WMF) (T-C-L)
And the natives don't like that answer much...

They seem also to be bickering over how to do it at your second link...
Last edited by Jim on Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Kelly Martin » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:07 pm

Does MediaViewer interfere with the fairly broad use of Wikimedia Commons as a image hosting service? I know that quite a few people parasite off of the WMF's bandwidth for image hosting by using Commons, and if MediaViewer interfered with that that would explain a great deal of the objection, as virtually all such activity would be for not-logged-on users.

Remember that most of the community at Commons is using Commons for their own purposes, which are likely to have fairly little to do with the WMF's broader purpose for Commons.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:58 pm

I just love how the WMF makes these extremely provocative moves and then hides away from the world assuming that the minions will lose interest and quiet down.

I have never, ever, ever seen a real company do this to their customer base.
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by EricBarbour » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:59 am

Kelly Martin wrote:Does MediaViewer interfere with the fairly broad use of Wikimedia Commons as a image hosting service? I know that quite a few people parasite off of the WMF's bandwidth for image hosting by using Commons, and if MediaViewer interfered with that that would explain a great deal of the objection, as virtually all such activity would be for not-logged-on users.

Remember that most of the community at Commons is using Commons for their own purposes, which are likely to have fairly little to do with the WMF's broader purpose for Commons.
Excellent points. Yes, lots of websites use Commons pics directly off their servers, including commercial ones who can afford to pay for images.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:53 pm

EricBarbour wrote:Yes, lots of websites use Commons pics directly off their servers, including commercial ones who can afford to pay for images.
The WMF presumably want to be exploited by companies. Why else do they forbid CC-NC licences?
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by thekohser » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:03 pm

Poetlister wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:Yes, lots of websites use Commons pics directly off their servers, including commercial ones who can afford to pay for images.
The WMF presumably want to be exploited by companies. Why else do they forbid CC-NC licences?
The CC-NC license would have upset the folks at Wikia.
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:05 pm

Image
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:09 pm


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Bielle
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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by Bielle » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:17 pm

Vigilant wrote:Image
As far as I am concerned, that's a pretty good explanation -akin to the little people who run around inside TV sets.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:08 am

Bielle wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Image
As far as I am concerned, that's a pretty good explanation -akin to the little people who run around inside TV sets.
Yes but now I want to know what the fairies do. Maybe the science channel will run a series someday.
This is not a signature.

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by The Adversary » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:04 am

The is one site which handles pictures very well, IMO, it is http://www.delcampe.net.
Never heard of it? Well, then you don´t collect postcards or stamps...

It started as a French-speaking web-site, now also in English where you can list all your items for sale...for free. (It only cost something if you sell it).

In its area, it is much, much bigger than Ebay. And it makes it wonderfully easy to look at lots and lots of items in a very short period.

One click on top of a small picture, and you instantly get a large one. With very easy navigating from there: click the "i" to get a new page with all the Information, etc, etc.

The place has even managed SUL somehow..... Log in to the English version of Delcampe, and you are automatically logged onto the other languages Delcampe, too.

Apparently, Delcampe is a small, privately owned company from (French-speaking) Belgium.
I just dream that mighty WMF could one day be half as good as they are....

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:11 am

The Adversary wrote:The is one site which handles pictures very well, IMO, it is http://www.delcampe.net.
Never heard of it? Well, then you don´t collect postcards or stamps...
I've actually heard of this before, and applaud them. It's about time the EvilBay had some serious competition. I never buy or sell anything on eBay if I can help it, too many utterly stupid and insane people (and too many fees and special regulations).

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Re: Media Viewer - A new hope

Unread post by The Adversary » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:29 am

EricBarbour wrote:
The Adversary wrote:The is one site which handles pictures very well, IMO, it is http://www.delcampe.net.
Never heard of it? Well, then you don´t collect postcards or stamps...
I've actually heard of this before, and applaud them. It's about time the EvilBay had some serious competition. I never buy or sell anything on eBay if I can help it, too many utterly stupid and insane people (and too many fees and special regulations).
Well, if you take a category like postcards, Ebay has now 6 million listed, while Delcampe has 37 million. What is more: viewing them is much easier on Delcampe, than on Ebay.

And I absolutely agree: I liked Ebay earlier, but Ebay has been one of those places where most "improvements" have made the place worse.
Much like WMF.....
:backtotopic:

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