NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activities

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Re: c

Unread post by Triptych » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:20 pm

Newyorkbrad wrote:I'm reading through these posts while waiting at an airport. I can't respond in detail right now, but I expect to blog on this topic on Wikipedia in a day or two.

(I don't know what happened to the topic heading... more proof I shouldn't post until I get to a real computer.)
According to "Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not" (which is policy) Wikipedia is not a blog. You can find the section at Wikipedia by typing "WP:NOTBLOG" into the searchbox. It's a substantial section, but begins:
WP:NOTBLOG, first part wrote:Wikipedia is not a blog, Web hosting service, social networking service, or memorial site. Wikipedia is not a social networking service like Facebook or Twitter. You may not host your own website, blog, wiki, or cloud at Wikipedia.
I'm not agreeing with the policy itself, it's another garbage collection point like WP:DISRUPT in which numerous bits have been stuffed in there over time by "I'm so clever" types, each with his or her own little idea of what Wikipedia is not. But it is policy, so shouldn't you either go try to change it, or take your blogging elsewhere like it says?

As well, it's the second illustration by Newyorkbrad in as many days that policy is something that applies to the little people only. Newyorkbrad and as a rule any arbitrator or administrator demonstrably may legally threaten (WP:THREAT) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =604814037) or blog (WP:NOTBLOG) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Newyo ... ter_misuse) as they please, while common editors can be and are blocked daily for the same thing.
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Re: c

Unread post by enwikibadscience » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:29 pm

Triptych wrote:
Newyorkbrad wrote:I'm reading through these posts while waiting at an airport. I can't respond in detail right now, but I expect to blog on this topic on Wikipedia in a day or two.

(I don't know what happened to the topic heading... more proof I shouldn't post until I get to a real computer.)
According to "Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not" (which is policy) Wikipedia is not a blog. You can find the section at Wikipedia by typing "WP:NOTBLOG" into the searchbox. It's a substantial section, but begins:
WP:NOTBLOG, first part wrote:Wikipedia is not a blog, Web hosting service, social networking service, or memorial site. Wikipedia is not a social networking service like Facebook or Twitter. You may not host your own website, blog, wiki, or cloud at Wikipedia.
I'm not agreeing with the policy itself, it's another garbage collection point like WP:DISRUPT in which numerous bits have been stuffed in there over time by "I'm so clever" types, each with his or her own little idea of what Wikipedia is not. But it is policy, so shouldn't you either go try to change it, or take your blogging elsewhere like it says?

As well, it's the second illustration by Newyorkbrad in as many days that policy is something that applies to the little people only.
Newyorkbrad and as a rule any arbitrator or administrator demonstrably may legally threaten (WP:THREAT) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =604814037) or blog (WP:NOTBLOG) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Newyo ... ter_misuse) as they please, while common editors can be and are blocked daily for the same thing.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Triptych » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:38 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:Jeez, Brad, just say "I fucked up with an overly legalistic and quite probably incorrect edit summary" and move along...
I agree with that, the wise move would have been to say "I mistakenly said "unlawfully"" (and probably the "interfered" part as well) and moved on. Now that Mr. Brad chooses rather to defend the question, his position and generally good reputation at Wikipedia make him the example for other administrators that are now likely to revert and block making the same "unlawful" assertion just as ignoramusly as he did.

But his blog is a good read anyway, not to agree with it but it's a good read, so we get some reading value out of it. There's at least that.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by thekohser » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:54 pm

enwikibadscience wrote:Yet, NYB's "shush, I know more than you do, I have a secret" was ridiculous and called so much unneeded attention to the RL.
Brad's in New York. The culprit is in New Jersey. Brad probably is privy to some knowledge involving interstate commerce laws allowing the transportation of breakable billiard cues across state lines.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:03 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:I'm sure he can read normal sized type...
Indeed, being a lawyer, he probably prefers small type. :B'
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Triptych » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Zoloft wrote:Under the CC by SA license, the text I am going to reproduce here is from this blog post on Wikipedia: link
Wikipedia and the law of computer misuse
Newyorkbrad wrote: The other day, I blocked a banned user who was socking around his ban through the latest in a series of IPs and throw-away account. Exasperated, instead of just labeling the block "sockpuppetry" or "ban evasion" or the like, I wrote in the block log and on the talkpage exactly what I was thinking: "banned user unlawfully accessing and interfering with the site in breach of the terms of use." I've been asked to explain the thinking behind that summary, which I am happy to do.

This being a lawyer's post, it comes with several disclaimers. The first is that I didn't come to Wikipedia to be a lawyer. Thinking about the law should (apart from articles about law and lawyers and judges, and with occasional exceptions for copyright issues) be remote from the Wikipedia experience of 99.9% of editors. The second disclaimer is that I haven't discussed anything in this post with anyone in the Wikimedia Foundation office; the Foundation has a highly qualified legal staff, but I have no affiliation with them, and am simply a volunteer like most of the rest of you. (I'm also not writing in my capacity as either an administrator or an arbitrator on this project.)

With all that being said ... does a banned editor who continues to edit, in breach of a ban imposed by the community or its dispute-resolution procedures, thereby act in a legally impermissible manner?

Merely breaching a website's internal rules or "terms of use" (TOS), without more, usually does not give rise to either criminal or statutory civil liability under statutes such as the US Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, although it may be civilly actionable by the website owner under other theories. There are several cases (some briefly summarized here) declining to find liability for "computer abuse" where courts believed that prosecutors or plaintiffs sought to overextend the concept, including to TOS violations.

The best-known of these cases is probably United States v. Drew. The facts of this case are sad. Two young teenage girls quarreled, and one asked her mother, Lori Drew, to help find out what her former friend was saying about her. The mother created a Myspace account under the fictitious name of a nonexistent 16-year-old boy, who purported to flirt with the girl for some time, but then abruptly told her that the world would be a better place without her&mdash. Heartbroken, the girl hanged herself. After state prosecutors investigated but decided there was nothing they could do, the federal prosecutor indicted Drew for (among other things) violating the CFAA by accessing Myspace's computers "in excess of authorization." The basis for this charge was that Drew had breached Myspace's TOS by creating a fictitious account, which according to the MySpace TOS is not allowed. The jury convicted on this count, but the District Court reversed and dismissed the charge, on the ground that a reasonable person would not expect a simple violation of the fine print in a website's TOS to constitute a crime.

Another interesting precedent in this area will be made any day now by the New York Court of Appeals (the state's highest court) in People v. Golb. Raphael Golb is the son of Norman Golb, a scholar who espouses a particular theory as to the origin of the Dead Sea Scrolls. More established scholarly rivals of Norman Golb, including a professor named Lawrence Schiffman, support a different theory. Over the course of several months in 2008, Raphael Golb signed onto computers in the library of New York University (which as an alumnus he was permitted to use), and sent hundreds of e-mails accusing Schiffman and others of plagiarizing Norman Golb's work and denying Golb credit to which he was entitled. Most troubling, Golb created Gmail accounts in Schiffman's and some other targets' names, and sent dozens of e-mails in which (for example) Schiffman purportedly confessed and admitted to plagiarizing from Norman Golb.

Raphael Golb was indicted and convicted for numerous crimes under New York State law, including multiple counts of identity theft, criminal impersonation, forgery, "aggravated harassment," and one count of unauthorized use of a computer. The Appellate Division, First Department affirmed all but one of the convictions in this opinion. Among other things, the court rejected Golb's First Amendment challenges to his convictions, finding that Golb acted with criminal intent and that his e-mails could not properly be characterized as "satiric hoaxes or pranks." The crux of the decision was that "Defendant was not prosecuted for the content of any of the emails, but only for giving the false impression that his victims were the actual authors of the emails. The First Amendment protects the right to criticize another person, but it does not permit anyone to give an intentionally false impression that the source of the message is that other person."

The Court of Appeals granted Golb leave to appeal and heard oral argument on March 25. Anyone interested in computer law should stop reading this right now and take the time to read the transcript or, better still watch and listen to the argument. It's a fascinating 40-minute discussion (with Ron Kuby appearing for Golb), fully accessible to non-lawyers. The questioning, particularly by Judge Smith and Chief Judge Lippman, raised a host of cutting-edge issues in this field: the overbreadth of the harassment statute (see Volokh Conspiracy post here); the availability or not of a parody defense; and (the driest issue but the one relevant here), whether a person is guilty of "unauthorized use of a computer" under New York law where he was, in fact, authorized to use the computer, albeit not for the specific purpose he wound up using it for. Is it really the case, the judges asked the prosecutor, that if an employee has the employer's permission to use the computer for work purposes only but signs onto Facebook, the employee has committed a crime? The prosecutor's answer was yes. The court's answer is going to be no. (The New York statute criminalizes "unauthorized" use of a computer but not use "in excess of authorization," and in that respect is narrower than its federal counterpart, so this will not become a direct CFAA precedent, but depending on how the court writes the opinion, it may still be instructive.)

So, merely socking around a ban, by itself, does not seem not to violate the statute. And this is as it should be. No one wants a system where every frustrated editor who socks around a block thereby becomes a criminal, so it's good that neither the WMF TOS nor the statute seems to contemplate such a result.

Are there, however, some limits? Does there come a point at which screwing around with Wikipedia actually crosses the line into legally impermissible behavior? Frankly, my strong hope is that we never need to find out the answer in a court decision. But if someone does press hard enough, he or she may find that the answer is yes.

Suppose a user is banned. (I don't plan to debate here the bona fides of the ban in question, although it was fully justified; one small piece of the saga can be found in my talkpage archive here, where the user said he was scrambling his password and leaving Wikipedia.) And suppose the user continues to post after the ban has taken effect. And suppose the user continues to post on-wiki with the avowed purpose of disrupting the site, voluntarily describing his behavior in words like these:

"I have been creating accounts since September in anticipation. They just blocked about 60, but thats only the last few days. All I wanted to do was help the project and they threw me out so now I will be the most prolific vandal, troll and sockmaster in Wikipedia history."
"So now if they want me to be a sockmaster, then fine, I'll pursue that with just as much enthusiasm as I did editing. I know they'll catch me eventually but in the mean time I will be a drain on resources and divert them from being able to do anything else."
"[O]nly about half those 60+ [blocked accounts] are me. The rest were just helpless well meaning editors. Same with the ones [administrator 1] blocked and the IP that [admin 2] accused of being me. They don't all have to be me, all they have to do is be caught in the path. I don't really care anymore if Wikipedia likes me or not, they can delete every edit I did. They didn't want me there anyway and they made that clear as crystal. So, since they didn't want me there, I'll have some fun. And I haven't even tried to be a sockmaster yet. Pretty soon it will be 260+ accounts."
"Since my help wasn't wanted, I'll just distract them with socking and trolling as I find the time. Days or weeks might go by and it may come in waves but it'll be fun."
"I doubt they'll tremble of fear me and it really just amounts to a waste of time. But since they didn't want me to help, I'll just be a pain in the ass and a distraction. In the process though a lot of innocent editors will be blocked (several already have), time will be distracted form the project and I'll have some fun. The only way they'll keep me away is if they range block the whole t-mobile and Verison Fios networks. I doubt they have the desire to do that."
"Case in point, [admin 1] recently got so annoyed with my pings he disabled the Echo pings. Others probably did as well but didn't post it. That means they are disabling functionality because of me. Good! They have continued to block and accuse editors who aren't me or my friends as being me. Largely because the checkuser app is crap. More good news! And that's after only 24 hours of being banned. Imagine the impact after a month. Maybe they ban editing from the Verizon network or t-mobile. Its hard to say what the long term effects will be, but its not going to be pleasant."
"In less than 48 hours I have gotten 2 range blocks for Verizon Fios which means a lot of people coming from 172 or 208 will need to get an IPblock exemption to edit in which case most of them will assume its me and deny it. 1 for me, 0 for WP. I have also caused several users to turn off pings (Echo) and distracted several users. Childish perhaps but I am having fun."
"Well I am up to 88 socks and that's not even counting the ones [admin 3] identified here which are mostly mine (but there are a couple that aren't). It also doesn't include my Bots Kumi-taskbot or A bot called bob so including those that pushes me over a 100. Plus the folks who turned of Echo pings, the range blocks of 138, 172 and 208 preventing editing to a large number of Verizon Fios and Us Navy users and the editors who weren't me that got blocked as collateral damage or several of my friends who have joined in. Not a bad start for 48 hours of naughtiness. Can't wait to get to the month mark."

... and that's just from the first two days, and it continues in that vein for week after week. (It's not a good use of my time to hunt down more diffs from on-wiki to go with those quotes from Wikipediocracy, but anyone who's followed this saga knows that I could come up with dozens of them, not to mention e-mails.)

It is not the case that any website is helpless to seek a legal remedy against a user who insists that he is going to continue to edit without permission with the admittedly foreseeable and intended effect of (1) causing the site administrators to have to spend the time dealing with his unwanted edits, and (2) triggering rangeblocks and thus interfering with access to the site by other users with whom he is unconnected.

I can readily fashion an argument that this type of conduct is against the law. I will not advance that argument in detail here, because to the best of my knowledge it has not been tested in application (I'd be quite interested if anyone's aware of any precedents; the DDOS cases may be the closest, but I acknowledge that this isn't that), and because there are far more direct means of dealing with the problem than invoking a statute. (The Wikipediocracy thread on this topic, in particular, has completely missed that "unlawful" can refer to civil as well as criminal law.)

I very, very much hope that all of this will remain in the realm of academic discussion. And in that vein, I'm going to take off my lawyer hat and remind the banned user in question, and everyone else who is reading here, that almost all of us came to Wikipedia as a hobby. And ... when a hobby stops being fun for you ... or when for whatever reason you're asked to leave the club ... the rational thing to do is to step away and find another hobby. You don't stick around and complain that everyone else is doing a lousy job enjoying your old hobby ... and you certainly don't destroy the clubhouse or scrawl graffiti on it and leave a mess for everyone else to clean up. And you especially don't outlast your welcome to the point that even one of the notoriously most relaxed and lenient administrators on the site, who is not especially hard-assed even against banned users quietly returning and doing good work (those who doubt that should carefully review this thread) is thinking, even fleetingly and metaphorically, about calling a cop on you, or to wonder whatever happened to the old Abuse response process, a page I had hoped never even to have to read.

Kumioko, I'm sorry you are so disaffected with Wikipedia. You had high hopes for the project and for your role in it, and for whatever reason (this isn't the place to find fault), your hopes were dashed. But you really, really, really need to step away now. Goodbye. Newyorkbrad 4:35 pm, 21 April, 2014 (UTC−7)
Thanks for quoting it here, Zoloft. I think there's a lot interesting and a low wrong with Brad's blog entry. It's interesting to read about those legal cases. He gathers some of Kumioko's venting, as he says in the first 48 hours after Kumioko's ban, and that is sort of informative. Kumioko threatens to be a master sock, boasts of the scores he's already created, promises to vandalize, etc. But I see that as Kumioko spouting off bombastically for a bit in reaction to the ban. He quieted down after that. What is the damage he has actually done? Newyorkbrad wasn't reverting vandalism where he reverted Kumioko on partial basis acting "unlawfully." Kumioko had complained to Timotheus Canens to stop reverting his commentary at Jimbo's page. So what? No policy says Brad has to revert that. Block evasion policy says reverting stuff like that is discretionary. So it weakens Brad's position that Kumioko forces admins to waste time going about reverting him. Because such is a discretionary act. The WP:EVADE policy says, in part, "Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule. This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a blocked editor (obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert." Discretionary.

It is awful where Brad likens Kumioko to the crazy mom who created the Myspace account maliciously posing as a boy suitor to one of her daughter's schoolgirl enemies that went psychologically tormented on to commit suicide. WTF, Brad? At least put a disclaimer there: "this is nothing like anything Kumioko did." This is your precedent, lawyer-man?

There's a great deal more there to mercilessly critique, and others here are, but the most telling thing is towards the end where he writes: "I can readily fashion an argument that this type of conduct is against the law." But by that he concedes he hasn't. Why not? Because "it hasn't been tested in application," in other words he'd be forging new and unexplored legal ground to bring the lawsuit against Kumioko. And also "because there are more direct means of dealing with the problem," like what, I guess he means just block on sight and filters and such. But the point was his bull charge of illegality. The legal cases he offers don't support that, at all.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:58 pm

So I see on the discussion related to brad's blog post that the discussion here has been mentioned and that I am unable to post to that discussion. It further is stated by Risker that "Yes, I noticed that thread the other day when looking at something else. Seems to me that there are many Wikipediocracy members who are wondering more or less the same thing that Newyorkbrad is.". Now maybe I am an idiot and there is some hiddent messages here that I am not getting. Could someone please explain to me what is being said here that are "wondering more or less the same thing that Newyorkbrad is? Cause I just ain't seeing the connection.

What I see here is some folks thinking that Brad screwed up and won't admit it, and on Wikipedia Brad and others justifying his bad decision because I am banned and he is an Admin/Arb. So, how is this not further proof of the abusive environment I have been ranting about now for months?

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:43 pm

Several here and several at AN have expressed about the wellbeing of Colonel Henry, and these concerns should be considered regardless of NYB's statement about Kumioko.

My guess is that Kumioka has compassion even for Colonel Henry, and shares a concern with protecting especially vulnerable users.

While I agree that the logic of NYB's closing paragraph was not overwhelming, his conclusion and sentiment that Kumioko would do well to forget Wikipedia are agreeable. Many of us have suggested the same advice.

It may be worth noting that NYB begins by confessing exasperation with Kumioko, a confession that can be expanded with PCR to an agreement that his block-log summary was not swift.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by enwikibadscience » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:03 pm

thekohser wrote:
enwikibadscience wrote:Yet, NYB's "shush, I know more than you do, I have a secret" was ridiculous and called so much unneeded attention to the RL.
Brad's in New York. The culprit is in New Jersey. Brad probably is privy to some knowledge involving interstate commerce laws allowing the transportation of breakable billiard cues across state lines.
:bash: (Could hardly be worst taste, but someone will do it.)

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:45 pm

Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:Several here and several at AN have expressed about the wellbeing of Colonel Henry, and these concerns should be considered regardless of NYB's statement about Kumioko.

My guess is that Kumioka has compassion even for Colonel Henry, and shares a concern with protecting especially vulnerable users.

While I agree that the logic of NYB's closing paragraph was not overwhelming, his conclusion and sentiment that Kumioko would do well to forget Wikipedia are agreeable. Many of us have suggested the same advice.

It may be worth noting that NYB begins by confessing exasperation with Kumioko, a confession that can be expanded with PCR to an agreement that his block-log summary was not swift.
I can certainly understand the Wikipedia communities frustrations with me. I feel similarly frustrated by the communities failure to do anything about abusive admins. Sure they have the power and desire to be rid of one editor who wants to improve the editing environment on the project, but they do not have the will or desire to do anything themselves to improve that environment themselves. At this point its really irrelevant if I forget about Wikipedia or not, I have been forever added to the list of vandals, trolls and sockmaster's because of a handful of abusive users. So there is no returning to the project I devoted so much time too. Because Wiki never forgives and never forgets and I refuse to sneak back with a clean account and send the message that I could be scared off or allow them to send that message to the editors who actually care about the project. I still believe in the purpose of Wikipedia and I will continue to contribute to that purpose. A free encyclopedia is of great use to the world but make no mistake, the world does not need Wikipedia. If it stops working tomorrow, another will spring up to replace it. Also, I have zero respect for the arbcom and I am quite content knowing they have no respect for me. So I don't really care if they create blogs about me or drag my name through the mudd, I have done more edits and contributions that the entire Arbcom combined. So I do not have anything to prove to them.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Neotarf » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:09 am

It's not like NYB to involve himself in penny-ante stuff like this. I suspect someone else put him up to it. diff
Last edited by Zoloft on Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed link

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by The Joy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:10 am

Kumioko wrote:
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:Several here and several at AN have expressed about the wellbeing of Colonel Henry, and these concerns should be considered regardless of NYB's statement about Kumioko.

My guess is that Kumioka has compassion even for Colonel Henry, and shares a concern with protecting especially vulnerable users.

While I agree that the logic of NYB's closing paragraph was not overwhelming, his conclusion and sentiment that Kumioko would do well to forget Wikipedia are agreeable. Many of us have suggested the same advice.

It may be worth noting that NYB begins by confessing exasperation with Kumioko, a confession that can be expanded with PCR to an agreement that his block-log summary was not swift.
I can certainly understand the Wikipedia communities frustrations with me. I feel similarly frustrated by the communities failure to do anything about abusive admins. Sure they have the power and desire to be rid of one editor who wants to improve the editing environment on the project, but they do not have the will or desire to do anything themselves to improve that environment themselves. At this point its really irrelevant if I forget about Wikipedia or not, I have been forever added to the list of vandals, trolls and sockmaster's because of a handful of abusive users. So there is no returning to the project I devoted so much time too. Because Wiki never forgives and never forgets and I refuse to sneak back with a clean account and send the message that I could be scared off or allow them to send that message to the editors who actually care about the project. I still believe in the purpose of Wikipedia and I will continue to contribute to that purpose. A free encyclopedia is of great use to the world but make no mistake, the world does not need Wikipedia. If it stops working tomorrow, another will spring up to replace it. Also, I have zero respect for the arbcom and I am quite content knowing they have no respect for me. So I don't really care if they create blogs about me or drag my name through the mudd, I have done more edits and contributions that the entire Arbcom combined. So I do not have anything to prove to them.
As long as this isn't an unhealthy obsession and you are not doing anything actually illegal or beyond the pale (i.e. threatening to disembowel people, etc.), then I see nothing wrong with it. Even if it is an unhealthy obsession, there's nothing we or Wikipedia can do to stop you. Wikipedia is an eternal battleground and will remain that way until it makes major reforms.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:56 pm

I completely agree the project needs major reforms. That's what I have been trying to push them into doing with no luck. The problem is, the changes need to occur at a top level such as forcing Admins to follow the rules, holding them accountable when they don't, redeveloping trust in the project and improving collaboration between the community an the WMF. As long as the WMF has the attitude that the community works for them and they can do what they want regardless of what the community needs or wants; and as long as the admins can do whatever they want with impunity, the editing environment on the project will not improve. The admins have the power and they have no incentive to change. People with power want to keep it and the admins and arbs are no exception. A large chunk of the good admins have already left the site so what we have left are the bad ones we can't get rid of. Which isn't to say they are all bad, but a large percentage are or have become corrupted over time.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Hex » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:49 pm

The Joy wrote:Wikipedia is an eternal battleground...
How Wikipedians see it:

Image

How everyone else sees it:

:slapfight:
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Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 pm

You got that right Hex, pretty damn accurate.

Reminds me a lot of this little video: link

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Cedric » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:51 pm

Hex wrote:
The Joy wrote:Wikipedia is an eternal battleground...
How Wikipedians see it:

Image

How everyone else sees it:

:slapfight:
You have grasped the pebble, Grasshopper. :)

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by enwikibadscience » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:33 pm

Hex wrote:
The Joy wrote:Wikipedia is an eternal battleground...
How Wikipedians see it:

Image

How everyone else sees it:

:slapfight:
:rotfl:

Lol. And that's the essence of my dead horse, I know where my battle stands. But, since it involves en.Wikipedia, it's not optional.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:55 pm

Hex wrote:
The Joy wrote:Wikipedia is an eternal battleground...
How Wikipedians see it:

Image

How everyone else sees it:

:slapfight:
How the Swami Vigilant sees it...
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by neved » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:48 am

Peter Damian wrote:I've posted this a few times before, but Larry had it perfectly.
But is it really possible for anybody in his right mind to get all broken up about being kicked out of the Wikipedia insane asylum? I mean, they're so ridiculously self-important, when they aren't acting like trolls, and show no sense of grace, humanity, or even style. Admins and even rank-and-file contributors go around making high-sounding declarations and announcements, as if they were government officials dispensing court orders. And then, if you really want to keep working on the wiki, nothing is stopping you from making a new account and getting back to work, instantly, as everybody knows. It's ridiculous. In fact, the complexity of the ridiculousness is mind-boggling, and would take a very complicated essay to tease out. This is what you're upset about being banned from?" Larry Sanger WR 20 Feb 2012
Talking about "so ridiculously self-important"...
Tonight newyorbrand posted to his talk "Availability note". When I saw the topic's name I thought he's going to be out for at least a few days, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk: ... ility_note
Availability note

Signing off for the night before I lose my temper and say something I'll regret. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:36, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure wikipedia would survive the whole night! without Newyorkbrad, are you? :scream:
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Bottled_Spider » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:43 pm

neved wrote:Talking about "so ridiculously self-important"...
Tonight newyorbrand posted to his talk "Availability note". When I saw the topic's name I thought he's going to be out for at least a few days, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk: ... ility_note
Availability note

Signing off for the night before I lose my temper and say something I'll regret. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:36, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
I have just had a very strange, yet quite delicious vision of Brad posting a vid to Youtube of him croaking a rendition of "Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word". Dressed up as Elton John for extra effect, whilst farting furiously.
I am not sure wikipedia would survive the whole night! without Newyorkbrad, are you? :scream:
I'm surprised Brad can survive a whole night without Wikipedia.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by fja » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:56 am

Midsize Jake wrote: The only clause that seems to apply, and it's a stretch, is "Disrupting the services by inundating any of the Project websites with communications or other traffic that suggests no serious intent to use the Project website for its stated purpose." Of course, nobody knows what the "stated purpose" is anymore
At a stretch, this could apply to quite a few of the admins there. To a newbie editor it would look as if some of them have completely lost interest in using wikipedia in article space and simply hang around patrolling user talk pages and waiting for someone to subvert one of wikipedias many many policies.

**Edited as forgot an important word***

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Hex » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:03 pm

Bottled_Spider wrote:
I am not sure wikipedia would survive the whole night! without Newyorkbrad, are you? :scream:
I'm surprised Brad can survive a whole night without Wikipedia.
:bow: Well played.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Jim » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:16 pm

Bottled_Spider wrote:I have just had a very strange, yet quite delicious vision of Brad posting a vid to Youtube of him croaking a rendition of "Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word". Dressed up as Elton John for extra effect, whilst farting furiously
It's getting more and more absurd, now. :sorry:

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by fja » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:54 pm

Jim wrote:
Bottled_Spider wrote:I have just had a very strange, yet quite delicious vision of Brad posting a vid to Youtube of him croaking a rendition of "Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word". Dressed up as Elton John for extra effect, whilst farting furiously
It's getting more and more absurd, now. :sorry:
It's a sad sad situation.....

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Neotarf » Fri May 02, 2014 2:10 am

Response to Kumioko on another thread (when I tried to use the preview function, it wouldn't let me post):
First on the death issue, I agree several comments were made that I didn't care for either. On the annoyance campaign. Using my situation as an example, I was blocked to shut me up for my criticism and send a message to the community not to question admins authoritay. They can call it anything they want but that is all it was ever about. If you haven't found any evidence of abusive admins then I don't really know what to tell you, because its there, its obvious and its widespread. I have given several examples and I could list a lot more. The bottom line is that Admins are currently held to a different, lower standard than regular editors. If an admin is allowed to get away with doing things like legal threats, using the tools to get the upper hand in debates on Wikipedia, using the tools to harass others, etc. then they shouldn't be admins and that includes several on the Arbcom. You asked what I specifically want done:
1. Admins need to be held to the same standard. If an editor would be blocked for it, then admins should be too.
2. Policy needs to be enforced evenly and fairly, if they cannot or will not do that, then they shouldn't be an admin
3. If the community can be trusted to make someone an admin, they can be trusted to vote the tools away. We do not need to make it an Arbcom case just to make Arbcom feel necessary and stroke their ego even more.
4. It should be easy to get the tools and easy to take them away if abused. There isn't a anything in the toolset that can't be reverted.
5. I would also like to see the Arbcom disbanded because its an absolute disgrace but I realize that is unlikely to happen.
I certainly have more things I would like to see done, but that is enough for now.
Of course there is admin abuse, and ignoring of rules. I can think of an example within the last 24 hours, but nothing is likely to come of it because of the individual's block log. But I can also think of at least 3 situations in the last year where problematic admins were defanged. I would like to think that happened because the admin-abuse rhetoric was applied to various situations carefully, and where a problem with the admin actually did exist.

In the last 3 situations that have brought up, the death situation and the copyvio involving the television evangelist, both turned out not to have been the fault of admins. In a third situation someone offered to send you diffs about a situation, but you didn't want to look at them. I really think you have to look at the diffs, otherwise people will just think you are crying wolf and will stop taking the admin-abuse issue seriously.

Of course they don't want criticism, especially if it is like a pop-up ad, and threatens to derail discussion. Up to now, your comments have had a mixed acceptance, with some saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain", but others willing to tolerate it as a sincere expression. The disruption question is complicated by the fact that no one can say to you, "hey that's disruptive here, so take it to the proper forum", since there is no proper forum for criticizing Wikipedia itself, except for here.

You will also note that the tolerance level changed when the comments were made on one particular arbcom thread, which I maintain is a third-rail subject. There has been a huge amount of saber-rattling on that thread--two blocks and a threatened ban, although arbs are supposedly not allowed to impose a ban unilaterally. And now it seems that NYB, the sharpest tack in the Arbcom box, and not usually one to shoot from the hip, is willing to risk his reputation, and a considerable amount of good will, by aggressively defending one of those blocks on his user blog.

On your other points:
1. Admins need to be held to a different standard, one that examines how they use warnings and blocks, and how they communicate, but there is no effective forum for this.
2. Enforcement is not only a problem with admins. Just look at ANI
3. I would support two-year terms for admins, there is no reason they should not be as accountable as the ArbCom.
4. It is hard to take the tools away, and takes a lot of energy away from content building every time it has to be done. It is also quite awkward and embarrassing for the admin, especially when you consider that they are volunteers too. That is why I support elections, and fixed terms, this would make it easier for someone to come in and out of the admin pool, or be quietly asked to take a break.
5. The ArbCom is far from perfect, but is better than nothing.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Fri May 02, 2014 3:38 am

First, I would agree that NYB is the sharpest tack in the Arbcom box. I would however follow that with the comment of..that is unfortunate.

Secondly as for his reputation. Brad is cunning and devious. If it were to affect his reputation I can assure you he wouldn't do it. Which is exactly why he won't do any meaningful change on Wikipedia. He got where he is in real life and on the project by being a yes man. He doesn't advocate changes and he knows how to glide through the system. And I can say that from the perspective of having met him in person on multiple occasions. I would also clarify that he likely thinks low of me as well, which is fine.

On the last note, I was editing when we had "nothing". I remember when and why it was created and at the time the Arbcom it seemed needed. Even then some editors felt that the Arbcom would eventually become the power hungry savages they are now. I don't recall who said it but they called it.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Neotarf » Fri May 02, 2014 4:04 am

The two of you should exchange prisoners, your sock drawer for his WP:POLEMIC blog.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Fri May 02, 2014 7:23 am

In a trade both parties should have something that the other wants. I don't want his POS blog anymore than he wants my socks.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Neotarf » Fri May 02, 2014 12:06 pm

So it's pretty much like this:
Image

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Fri May 02, 2014 12:21 pm

Every time a moderator closes a thread, Wikipediocracy's guardian angel hastens the day.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Fri May 02, 2014 1:41 pm

Neotarf wrote:So it's pretty much like this:
Image
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by everyking » Fri May 02, 2014 8:24 pm

Neotarf wrote:The ArbCom is far from perfect, but is better than nothing.
I think nothing would be better--the community could simply vote on remedies when serious problems arise. I think that would work fine. Alternatively, if something more formal is desired, we could have some sort of jury system where active editors (who have volunteered themselves as being available) are randomly selected to consider solutions to serious problems.

The ArbCom's ridiculous level of secrecy is toxic to a project that thrives on transparency, and that kind of secrecy enables them to make bad decisions without having to justify themselves or explain their reasoning. The ArbCom also uses long-term bans far more than necessary. I think bans with a maximum length of six months ought to be adequate to deal with almost any kind of trouble. This kind of thing makes the ArbCom more a mechanism to remove people from the project than a way to genuinely resolve problems. Well, after 10 years of indefinite and long-term bans, we have removed countless good editors from the project, and also created a chilling effect for the remaining editors. Let people come back more liberally, and maybe you'll have more arguments and in some cases you may have to hand down another six month block, but the alternative may be a dead project, where everyone has banned or run off everyone else. It is not terribly hard to draw a line between the ArbCom and the declining rate of participation.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Fri May 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Its not just the secrecy its the level of incompetence and lack of taking it seriously. They are months behind on everything and they have the attitude they don't care. Oh I'm just a volunteer, I'll get around to it when I feel like it. Sure they are volunteers but the signed up for a commitment of time. They knew it going in so if you don't have the time, don't apply. Its just as I have been saying before, the Arbcom is just another hat..another line on their wikiresume.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri May 02, 2014 9:51 pm

everyking wrote:The ArbCom's ridiculous level of secrecy is toxic to a project that thrives on transparency
Oh bullshit!!

There's nothing about wikipedia that's transparent except the edit histories and those get "fixed" all the fucking time too.
ARBCOM, IRC, WMF, cabals, cliques, corporate editing, RfA, ANI, RfC, editor review, etc, etc, et-fucking-cetera

There isn't a single fucking place on en.wp that isn't awash in secret deliberations. All of it at the junior high level.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by neved » Fri May 02, 2014 10:54 pm

everyking wrote:
I think nothing would be better--the community could simply vote on remedies when serious problems arise. I think that would work fine.
It is an absurd suggestion.
First of all there is no such thing as the wikipedia community.
A few dozen users who frequent drama boards and supporting community bans are absolutely sick, psychotic bullies.
For example in my situation:

*half of sickos who supported my ban were involved with me, and three of them very heavily involved.

*the nominator was involved with me.

*one of the supporters, not even an admin, closed the discussion itself, and itself tagged my user pages. In a few month after that it left wikipedia and its last post was "fuck you all".

*no single diff to confirm an alleged harassment was presented.

*I was not allowed to say a single word in my defense .

*one idiot supported my ban because he does not like meta.

*the first sicko who supported my ban harassed and hounded me on wikipedia, and used the lies it obtained from a criminal in the ban discussion.

Does it look like it worked fine, everyking?
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by neved » Fri May 02, 2014 11:00 pm

Vigilant wrote:
everyking wrote:The ArbCom's ridiculous level of secrecy is toxic to a project that thrives on transparency
Oh bullshit!!

There's nothing about wikipedia that's transparent except the edit histories and those get "fixed" all the fucking time too.
ARBCOM, IRC, WMF, cabals, cliques, corporate editing, RfA, ANI, RfC, editor review, etc, etc, et-fucking-cetera

There isn't a single fucking place on en.wp that isn't awash in secret deliberations. All of it at the junior high level.
+1
Although I believe that users who have never experienced on themselves how the regime is working would have difficulties in believing it.
Last edited by neved on Fri May 02, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Fri May 02, 2014 11:01 pm

I agree. Anyone who thinks the community can be trusted to vote it out is just flat wrong. I would prefer that over the Arbcom however. But then again,looking at my ban, the community constituted a dozen idiots that just wanted to send a message to the community. On the other hand Arbcom is an abusive cabal of losers that doesn't take the job seriously and will support an admin or fellow arb over an editor any day. Basically what I am trying to say is either way, Wikipedia is screwed. So its better to remove the extra layer of drama and eliminate Arbcom. The only way to fix it is to create a few paid positions at the WMF level. A couple to monitor the admins and police that group. Another couple who are actually trained in Arbitration and or mediation to intervene when the community can't figure things out.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by neved » Fri May 02, 2014 11:04 pm

Kumioko wrote:I agree. Anyone who thinks the community can be trusted to vote it out is just flat wrong. I would prefer that over the Arbcom however. But then again,looking at my ban, the community constituted a dozen idiots that just wanted to send a message to the community. On the other hand Arbcom is an abusive cabal of losers that doesn't take the job seriously and will support an admin or fellow arb over an editor any day. Basically what I am trying to say is either way, Wikipedia is screwed. So its better to remove the extra layer of drama and eliminate Arbcom. The only way to fix it is to create a few paid positions at the WMF level. A couple to monitor the admins and police that group. Another couple who are actually trained in Arbitration and or mediation to intervene when the community can't figure things out.
I believe that comparing the arbcom to the community is as comparing secret tribunals by inquisitions to Moscow Trials (T-H-L).
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children." Golda Meir

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by everyking » Sat May 03, 2014 1:42 am

Kumioko wrote:I agree. Anyone who thinks the community can be trusted to vote it out is just flat wrong. I would prefer that over the Arbcom however. But then again,looking at my ban, the community constituted a dozen idiots that just wanted to send a message to the community. On the other hand Arbcom is an abusive cabal of losers that doesn't take the job seriously and will support an admin or fellow arb over an editor any day. Basically what I am trying to say is either way, Wikipedia is screwed. So its better to remove the extra layer of drama and eliminate Arbcom. The only way to fix it is to create a few paid positions at the WMF level. A couple to monitor the admins and police that group. Another couple who are actually trained in Arbitration and or mediation to intervene when the community can't figure things out.
I personally have a fair amount of faith in the community, but regardless, the point of my post was to criticize the ArbCom. If you don't think the community could take over that role, fine. I also suggested a jury system, and I have, a thousand times in the past, proposed an ArbCom that does its deliberations on-wiki.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Sat May 03, 2014 3:21 am

everyking wrote:
Kumioko wrote:I agree. Anyone who thinks the community can be trusted to vote it out is just flat wrong. I would prefer that over the Arbcom however. But then again,looking at my ban, the community constituted a dozen idiots that just wanted to send a message to the community. On the other hand Arbcom is an abusive cabal of losers that doesn't take the job seriously and will support an admin or fellow arb over an editor any day. Basically what I am trying to say is either way, Wikipedia is screwed. So its better to remove the extra layer of drama and eliminate Arbcom. The only way to fix it is to create a few paid positions at the WMF level. A couple to monitor the admins and police that group. Another couple who are actually trained in Arbitration and or mediation to intervene when the community can't figure things out.
I personally have a fair amount of faith in the community, but regardless, the point of my post was to criticize the ArbCom. If you don't think the community could take over that role, fine. I also suggested a jury system, and I have, a thousand times in the past, proposed an ArbCom that does its deliberations on-wiki.
Unfortunately I have about 9 years and 500, 000 edits worth of experience to show that the community absolutely cannot be trusted any farther than they can be thrown as a group, tied to a boulder in a tornado. They do occasionally band together but its exceedingly rare. Some exceptions have been the turning off of visual editor and several other changes the WMF decided to shove down the communities throat. Every once in a while they give someone the Admin tools, but again that's rare. The community has repeatedly, time and again failed to make any meaningful changes that need to be done and I could list several just off the top of my head.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kelly Martin » Sat May 03, 2014 3:53 am

everyking wrote:I also suggested a jury system, and I have, a thousand times in the past, proposed an ArbCom that does its deliberations on-wiki.
I've proposed jury systems in the past, but of course the idea has never been considered because it would take too much power away from the entrenched power system.

There is no value in trying to force the ArbCom conduct its deliberations "on-wiki", as they would just do it the way the Illinois legislature conducts itself "in public": they have private meetings before the public sessions to decide what will happen in the public session, then the public session convenes, the choreographed legislative dance takes place, and they go back into recess. You can't ban people from having private meetings, especially when you have no way to know that they are (because you can't have them tailed or force them to account for every minute of their day). Furthermore, it is contrary to the fundamental nature of the disciplinary body of a voluntary organization to hold most of its proceedings publicly. Nonmembers of the organization have no right to witness or participate in the proceedings, and the interests of those accused (and indeed of any person whose character might be called in question during such proceedings) mandate that any statements made during such a proceeding may only be published with the consent of the accused. It is a grave mistake to apply the principles appropriate to public courts of law to the Arbitration Committee.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sat May 03, 2014 6:08 am

Kelly Martin wrote:There is no value in trying to force the ArbCom conduct its deliberations "on-wiki", as they would just do it the way the Illinois legislature conducts itself "in public": they have private meetings before the public sessions to decide what will happen in the public session, then the public session convenes, the choreographed legislative dance takes place, and they go back into recess. You can't ban people from having private meetings, especially when you have no way to know that they are (because you can't have them tailed or force them to account for every minute of their day). Furthermore, it is contrary to the fundamental nature of the disciplinary body of a voluntary organization to hold most of its proceedings publicly. Nonmembers of the organization have no right to witness or participate in the proceedings, and the interests of those accused (and indeed of any person whose character might be called in question during such proceedings) mandate that any statements made during such a proceeding may only be published with the consent of the accused. It is a grave mistake to apply the principles appropriate to public courts of law to the Arbitration Committee.
Fully agree. Don't let anyone kid any of you that Arbcom is a "court" of any possible description. It is a Masonic lodge, for people with the mentality of 14-year-old boys.

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Re: NYB has accused Kumioko of engaging in illegal activitie

Unread post by Kumioko » Sat May 03, 2014 2:22 pm

And they definitely aren't going to willingly give up their power.

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