Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

We examine the less than successful stories of the Wikimedia Foundation to create and use technology. The poster boy for this forum is Visual Editor.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:51 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.
Now, now.

It's still a horse race of awfulness.
Oh, sure, but what I mean is that literally the next big stink is going to be in three days' time. Flow is going to take much longer to get to the point of having a disastrous rollout.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by mac » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:51 pm

Clicking this link: link returns this (reproducible) error:
Wikimedia Foundation
Error

Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again in a few minutes.

You may be able to get further information in the #wikipedia channel on the Freenode IRC network.

The Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organisation which hosts some of the most popular sites on the Internet, including Wikipedia. It has a constant need to purchase new hardware. If you would like to help, please donate.
If you report this error to the Wikimedia System Administrators, please include the details below.
PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.24wmf12/extensions/Flow/includes/Content/Content.php line 37:
Argument 2 passed to Flow\Content\Content::onFetchContentObject() must implement interface Content, null given
Thanks, Flow team!

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:13 pm

That is crisp.

Holy shit, it's even simpler to reproduce:

OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436171
Bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436172
OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436173

What has it got to do with Flow, though? In the sense of why is that particular revision ID associated with Flow?
Last edited by Hex on Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:18 pm

I'll bet everyone here a dollar that we see exactly this bug remanifested within a year.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Mason » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:11 pm

Hex wrote:That is crisp.

Holy shit, it's even simpler to reproduce:

OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436171
Bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436172
OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436173

What has it got to do with Flow, though? In the sense of why is that particular revision ID associated with Flow?
The software is choking on an oversighted/supressed revision. It should just say "you're not allowed to see this" but somebody musta broke it.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:15 pm

Mason wrote:
Hex wrote: What has it got to do with Flow, though? In the sense of why is that particular revision ID associated with Flow?
The software is choking on an oversighted/supressed revision. It should just say "you're not allowed to see this" but somebody musta broke it.
Right.

That's WTF enough on its own, but I swear, the WMF's developers have no idea how to interface these new components with the suppression system. Look at this bug that I filed for the notification system ("Echo"). The components are clearly only integrated at the shallowest of levels.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Zoloft » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Hex wrote:
Mason wrote:
Hex wrote: What has it got to do with Flow, though? In the sense of why is that particular revision ID associated with Flow?
The software is choking on an oversighted/supressed revision. It should just say "you're not allowed to see this" but somebody musta broke it.
Right.

That's WTF enough on its own, but I swear, the WMF's developers have no idea how to interface these new components with the suppression system. Look at this bug that I filed for the notification system ("Echo"). The components are clearly only integrated at the shallowest of levels.
It looks like the developers have successfully 'surfaced' the user interface. I think that was on a PowerPoint slide somewhere.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:49 pm

Zoloft wrote:
Hex wrote:
Mason wrote:
Hex wrote: What has it got to do with Flow, though? In the sense of why is that particular revision ID associated with Flow?
The software is choking on an oversighted/supressed revision. It should just say "you're not allowed to see this" but somebody musta broke it.
Right.

That's WTF enough on its own, but I swear, the WMF's developers have no idea how to interface these new components with the suppression system. Look at this bug that I filed for the notification system ("Echo"). The components are clearly only integrated at the shallowest of levels.
It looks like the developers have successfully 'surfaced' the user interface. I think that was on a PowerPoint slide somewhere.
Surfaced as in a floater.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by mac » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:50 pm

Mason wrote:
Hex wrote:That is crisp.

Holy shit, it's even simpler to reproduce:

OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436171
Bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436172
OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=612436173

What has it got to do with Flow, though? In the sense of why is that particular revision ID associated with Flow?
The software is choking on an oversighted/supressed revision. It should just say "you're not allowed to see this" but somebody musta broke it.
Legoktm said something about the documentation being wrong (edit: in #wikimedia-corefeatures), and pointed me to Bugzilla (in both channels): link
#wikipedia wrote: [14:06] <anonymous90999> here's another
[14:06] <anonymous90999> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/2005_June_29&diff=next&oldid=612957582
[14:06] <anonymous90999> PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.24wmf12/extensions/Flow/includes/Content/Content.php line 37:
[14:06] <anonymous90999> Argument 2 passed to Flow\Content\Content::onFetchContentObject() must implement interface Content, null given
[14:07] <anonymous90999> flow aims to improve wikipedia by rendering it useless
[14:07] <anonymous90999> :D
[14:10] * x0011BF (~x7@c-98-198-255-46.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[14:12] <anonymous90999> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cloud_computing&diff=next&oldid=616875041
[14:12] <anonymous90999> PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.24wmf12/extensions/Flow/includes/Content/Content.php line 37:
[14:12] <anonymous90999> Argument 2 passed to Flow\Content\Content::onFetchContentObject() must implement interface Content, null given
[14:13] * AnoAnon (~AnoAnon@197.37.104.252) has joined #wikipedia
[14:22] * James_F|Away is now known as James_F
[14:24] * rcsprinter (uid8084@wikipedia/Rcsprinter123) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[14:25] * Siv (~Siv@unaffiliated/sivrullirmiut) Quit (Quit: I despise you all)
[14:29] * Lorenzo64 (~lorenzo@93-58-3-33.ip156.fastwebnet.it) has joined #wikipedia
[14:29] <legoktm> anonymous90999: thanks for reporting let me pass it on to the proper team
[14:29] <legoktm> anonymous90999: it's being fixed right now
[14:30] * rtorres (~rtorres@198.73.209.3) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[14:31] * kachi8 (kachi8@0x5552f0bb.adsl.cybercity.dk) Quit
[14:31] * kachi8 (kachi8@0x5552f0bb.adsl.cybercity.dk) has joined #wikipedia
[14:32] <legoktm> anonymous90999: you can track it as https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68004
[14:38] <anonymous90999> ty legoktm
[14:38] * anonymous90999 is now known as badmachine
[14:38] <badmachine> .ns identify password090
[14:38] * fr33domlover (~fr33domlo@fsf/member/fr33domlover) Quit (Quit: fr33domlover)
[14:40] * yosito (~yosito@2602:306:371e:e3c0:2d65:3cf9:7d0b:15eb) has joined #wikipedia
[14:42] * ChanServ sets mode: +o QueenOfFrance
[14:42] * QueenOfFrance sets mode: +b *!*@74-46-254-174.dr04.ekgv.ca.frontiernet.net
Session Close: Mon Jul 14 14:42:16 2014
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(edited)

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:05 pm

Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.
Now, now.

It's still a horse race of awfulness.
Oh, sure, but what I mean is that literally the next big stink is going to be in three days' time.
It wasn't exactly a Sherlock Holmes grade of intelligence-required deduction, but still... totally called it.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:13 pm

Hex wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.
Now, now.

It's still a horse race of awfulness.
Oh, sure, but what I mean is that literally the next big stink is going to be in three days' time.
It wasn't exactly a Sherlock Holmes grade of intelligence-required deduction, but still... totally called it.
Strangely, it's the thoughtless thuggery at the hands of the WMF that is drawing the most ire from the faithful.

Nothing like dropping something in the donation plate at church and then getting curbstomped by the alter boys right outside the doors.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:26 am

Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.
Now, now.

It's still a horse race of awfulness.
Oh, sure, but what I mean is that literally the next big stink is going to be in three days' time.
It wasn't exactly a Sherlock Holmes grade of intelligence-required deduction, but still... totally called it.
Strangely, it's the thoughtless thuggery at the hands of the WMF that is drawing the most ire from the faithful.

Nothing like dropping something in the donation plate at church and then getting curbstomped by the alter boys right outside the doors.
Media Viewer isn't bad and is probably superior for about 80% of actual users (as opposed to editors).

Moeller has abused tools, however. That's what ArbCom needs to address.

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Zoloft » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:47 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.
Now, now.

It's still a horse race of awfulness.
Oh, sure, but what I mean is that literally the next big stink is going to be in three days' time.
It wasn't exactly a Sherlock Holmes grade of intelligence-required deduction, but still... totally called it.
Strangely, it's the thoughtless thuggery at the hands of the WMF that is drawing the most ire from the faithful.

Nothing like dropping something in the donation plate at church and then getting curbstomped by the alter boys right outside the doors.
Media Viewer isn't bad and is probably superior for about 80% of actual users (as opposed to editors).

Moeller has abused tools, however. That's what ArbCom needs to address.

RfB
Erik Möller, the current Deputy Director of the Wikimedia Foundation, abused his position.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Sparky » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:56 am

Randy from Boise wrote: Media Viewer isn't bad and is probably superior for about 80% of actual users (as opposed to editors).

Moeller has abused tools, however. That's what ArbCom needs to address.

RfB
Seems to me that Media Viewer is reminiscent of something Facebook tried to implement a year or two ago and backed off from because it sucked and their users let them know that in no uncertain terms.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:09 am

Zoloft wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Media Viewer isn't bad and is probably superior for about 80% of actual users (as opposed to editors).

Moeller has abused tools, however. That's what ArbCom needs to address.

RfB
Erik Möller, the current Deputy Director of the Wikimedia Foundation, abused his position.
No, there is nothing ArbCom can do about that. He abused tools, by reverting a righteous RFC-backed tweak and threatening consequences, while ENORMOUSLY involved professionally and financially...

Threatening to use the nuclear button is using the nuclear button...

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Kelly Martin » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:24 am

Randy from Boise wrote:No, there is nothing ArbCom can do about that.
Sure, they can. They can formally protest Moeller's conduct.

Wikipedians need to get it through their heads that neither they nor Wikipedia itself is the property of the WMF to play with as it pleases.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:02 am

Randy from Boise wrote: No, there is nothing ArbCom can do about that. He abused tools, by reverting a righteous RFC-backed tweak and threatening consequences, while ENORMOUSLY involved professionally and financially...
It would have been righteous if it only disabled Media Viewer for people who hadn't explicitly opted into it. But instead it disabled it for everyone, opt-ins included - like me. The change was meant well, but technically incompentent. He should have put it up for review and testing, then done a countdown to implementation, the way Kww did with VisualEditor.

Moeller reverting the change on that basis is completely understandable. It was his accompanying that with bullying that crossed the line into totally unacceptable territory.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:27 pm

Kelly Martin wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:No, there is nothing ArbCom can do about that.
Sure, they can. They can formally protest Moeller's conduct.

Wikipedians need to get it through their heads that neither they nor Wikipedia itself is the property of the WMF to play with as it pleases.
Well, I will yield the first point. They should do that. And I think my idea of an RFC of En-WP, limited to the question of a vote of confidence in Erik Moeller as head of software gunk, might have some effect — particularly if emulated by other language WPs.

As for your second point — on that your opinion is based in hope rather than legality. One thing is pretty clear: the entire policy & guidelines community apparatus upon Wikipedia is a chimera. Ultimate power belongs to the owners, which is WMF. This is not to say that there isn't possibility for organization and use of the media against the 800 pound $50M WMF gorilla in San Francisco. But do recognize that burly primate for what it is.

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:56 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Kelly Martin wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:No, there is nothing ArbCom can do about that.
Sure, they can. They can formally protest Moeller's conduct.

Wikipedians need to get it through their heads that neither they nor Wikipedia itself is the property of the WMF to play with as it pleases.
Well, I will yield the first point. They should do that. And I think my idea of an RFC of En-WP, limited to the question of a vote of confidence in Erik Moeller as head of software gunk, might have some effect — particularly if emulated by other language WPs.

As for your second point — on that your opinion is based in hope rather than legality. One thing is pretty clear: the entire policy & guidelines community apparatus upon Wikipedia is a chimera. Ultimate power belongs to the owners, which is WMF. This is not to say that there isn't possibility for organization and use of the media against the 800 pound $50M WMF gorilla in San Francisco. But do recognize that burly primate for what it is.

RfB
If the WMF is willing to intervene in a trivial dispute over the default state of a beta level software tool in the common.js file, where won't they throw down their hammer?

Is there ANY point in doing ANY governance work on en.wp?

Will it fall to commons to save local control for the users?
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:34 pm

Vigilant wrote:If the WMF is willing to intervene in a trivial dispute over the default state of a beta level software tool in the common.js file, where won't they throw down their hammer?

Is there ANY point in doing ANY governance work on en.wp?

Will it fall to commons to save local control for the users?
Such interventions are extremely rare. Wait till we have several before we say things like that. And no doubt Erik could as easily intervene on Commons if they did something to annoy him.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by thekohser » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:04 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Vigilant wrote:If the WMF is willing to intervene in a trivial dispute over the default state of a beta level software tool in the common.js file, where won't they throw down their hammer?

Is there ANY point in doing ANY governance work on en.wp?

Will it fall to commons to save local control for the users?
Such interventions are extremely rare. Wait till we have several before we say things like that. And no doubt Erik could as easily intervene on Commons if they did something to annoy him.
I thought Pete Forsyth gave a short history of blundering WMF interventions.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:29 pm

Thought I'd share something I just happened across: Wikipedia:Flow/Community engagement (T-H-L). I like that Fram sarcastically tagged it as "historic" months ago and nobody in the WMF developer section even noticed.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:12 pm

Hex wrote:Thought I'd share something I just happened across: Wikipedia:Flow/Community engagement (T-H-L). I like that Fram sarcastically tagged it as "historic" months ago and nobody in the WMF developer section even noticed.

:bow:
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:56 pm

Hex wrote:Thought I'd share something I just happened across: Wikipedia:Flow/Community engagement (T-H-L). I like that Fram sarcastically tagged it as "historic" months ago and nobody in the WMF developer section even noticed.
Actually, those people have probably already moved on from paying lip service to community engagement to the model of doing whatever the fuck they want and jamming the end product down the community's throats — because they think they can.

Fram's irony is their reality.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:03 pm

Did you know...
...that the WMF developers want Flow in the long term to be more, so much more, than just a replacement for ye olde talk pages?

MW:Flow/Block Module (T-H-L)
MW:Flow/Welcome Module (T-H-L)
MW:Flow/Workflow Description Module (T-H-L)

That's where the "flow" comes from - Brandon Harris' grand plan for improving workflow.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Kelly Martin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:29 pm

Hex wrote:That's where the "flow" comes from - Brandon Harris' grand plan for improving workflow.
I so want to see this get developed, just because I'm absolutely certain that Brandon has NO CLUE what a workflow system looks like.

I also don't understand how workflow is in any way related to threaded discussions, there really does not seem to me for there to need to be much integration between a workflow system and a messaging system. Some, yes, sure, but that should be doable with a fairly simple API.

Edit: Reading the MediaWiki page, it seems that he thinks that workflows inherently involve talk pages because on Wikipedia, the community workarounds for the lack of a PROPER workflow system include the use of talk pages. Oh, the pain, it hurts.

I hate to say it, but as idiotic as Six Sigma is, these guys would still benefit from being forced to do 6Sig training just because it would forcibly introduce them to the concept of business process analysis, input and output metrics, decision points, and a whole load of related concepts that they clearly do not understand.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Notvelty » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:55 pm

Kelly Martin wrote:
Hex wrote:That's where the "flow" comes from - Brandon Harris' grand plan for improving workflow.
I so want to see this get developed, just because I'm absolutely certain that Brandon has NO CLUE what a workflow system looks like.

I also don't understand how workflow is in any way related to threaded discussions, there really does not seem to me for there to need to be much integration between a workflow system and a messaging system. Some, yes, sure, but that should be doable with a fairly simple API.

Edit: Reading the MediaWiki page, it seems that he thinks that workflows inherently involve talk pages because on Wikipedia, the community workarounds for the lack of a PROPER workflow system include the use of talk pages. Oh, the pain, it hurts.

I hate to say it, but as idiotic as Six Sigma is, these guys would still benefit from being forced to do 6Sig training just because it would forcibly introduce them to the concept of business process analysis, input and output metrics, decision points, and a whole load of related concepts that they clearly do not understand.
Sorry. You want to give these idiots the impression that they know more than they already think they know?

At least now there's the faint (very faint) possibility that they'd listen to an "expect". Set them a 6sigma course (whereupon they will all vote themselves "black belt" status, based on who can tell the most misogynist jokes on IRC) and they'll think -they- are the experts.
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Kelly Martin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:06 pm

I've spent quite a bit of time in my career doing paper-to-electronic business process migrations, and one of the first things you learn is to never simply convert the paper form to an electronic form, because the paper form imbeds limitations that stem from it being a paper form that might not apply to an electronic form. Similarly, when designing a solution to implement a process, you don't just copy the existing ad-hoc process, because the ad-hoc process necessarily imbeds whatever limitations currently available tools impose on that process. And yet, this is what Brandon wants to do.

Of course, a real process analysis would identify MediaWiki itself as the limiting factor for may of the processes in Wikipedia....

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by HRIP7 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:10 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... onceptions
DannyH (WMF), what's so difficult about indenting to more than three levels? That's really, really, really basic functionality others have solved long ago. Look at Reddit. My advice would be don't even think about bringing anything to the community until you have replicated that functionality. You'll be a laughing stock or worse, and rightly so. Andreas JN466 00:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Jayen466: Infinite indentation simply does not work in a mobile context. In order for Flow to be successful (e.g., "meet its design goals"), it needs to work for the future, and not only for the past. --Jorm (WMF) (talk) 00:47, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

So Flow is designed for mobile use? Do you expect people to do encyclopedic work while standing in the subway with their mobile phone? Fair enough, occasionally one might want to fire off a talk page reply in such a situation, but then I think it would be rather better to cater for that situation by having mobiles display the talk page indents differently, perhaps with micro indents. Does anyone know what Reddit threads look like on a mobile? Andreas JN466 01:46, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Having borrowed a mobile, I find that Reddit looks much the same there as it does on a desktop computer. And it's perfectly usable, infinite indentation and all. (By the way, one thing I really like about Reddit is that when two people go on and on replying to each other ad infinitum, eventually, after 10 indents or so, Reddit will just put an arrow link to a new subpage.) I honestly don't see the problem. Andreas JN466 02:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:13 am

Looks like it's game on again. :popcorn:
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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:17 am

SB_Johnny wrote:Looks like it's game on again. :popcorn:
Fram wrote:== Get lost, WMF ==
Can't we make Fram an honorary Trustee over here? I know we have some beefs with him somewhere, but he does present the bird in a very WPO fashion lately.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Hex » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am

SB_Johnny wrote:Looks like it's game on again. :popcorn:
Example of the high quality of Flow's programming: click on a deleted item in the history of a Flow page and you get:
Error

Insufficient permission to access the content.

Return to Main Page.

[d2cb03e7] 2014-09-05 09:36:30: Fatal exception of type Flow\Exception\PermissionException
That page was set up by DannyH (WMF) (T-C-L), the product manager for Flow, who was formerly a product manager at Wikia, and whose user page proudly states that he has made 125,000 edits to a wiki about a puppet show for children over the last nine years, and writes every day about some crap "1960s vampire soap opera". Ladies and gentlemen, the WMF's recruitment policy in action.
My question, to this esteemed Wiki community, is this: Do you think that a Wiki could successfully generate a useful encyclopedia? -- JimboWales
Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Mason » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Fram wrote:== So funny it hurts ==

So, after fully protecting [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test]], I switched to my non-admin alter ego [[User:EngFram]] t osee whether protection actually works with Flow. Well, not really.

The good news: you can't create a new topic anymore.

The bad news:
*if you try to create a new topic, you first can edit as much as you like, but on saving, you get a smallish pink box with the message "Blocked". Blocked? Oh, I'm not really blocked, I just can't save my new topic.
*If you want to reply to existing topics, no problem! You can reply to topics on fully protected pages. Which means that protecting a Flow-enabled page has very little effect and won't do a lot to stop vandals and the like. Yes, this is completely ready to be rolled out to more pages. Fram (talk) 08:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
:picard:

Good lord, people, what's so hard about "get it working first, then give the public a crack at it"?

:frustrated:

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Thracia » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:18 pm

Mason wrote:
Fram wrote:== So funny it hurts ==

So, after fully protecting [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test]], I switched to my non-admin alter ego [[User:EngFram]] t osee whether protection actually works with Flow. Well, not really.

The good news: you can't create a new topic anymore.

The bad news:
*if you try to create a new topic, you first can edit as much as you like, but on saving, you get a smallish pink box with the message "Blocked". Blocked? Oh, I'm not really blocked, I just can't save my new topic.
*If you want to reply to existing topics, no problem! You can reply to topics on fully protected pages. Which means that protecting a Flow-enabled page has very little effect and won't do a lot to stop vandals and the like. Yes, this is completely ready to be rolled out to more pages. Fram (talk) 08:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
:picard:

Good lord, people, what's so hard about "get it working first, then give the public a crack at it"?

:frustrated:
Because testing is booooorrrring, whereas sticking tits on a boar's arse is fuuuuun!

And as we all know, the WMF devs and other product hangers-on won't get out of bed if they're gonna be bored at work, maaan.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Konveyor Belt » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:03 pm

Mason wrote:
Fram wrote:== So funny it hurts ==

So, after fully protecting [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test]], I switched to my non-admin alter ego [[User:EngFram]] t osee whether protection actually works with Flow. Well, not really.

The good news: you can't create a new topic anymore.

The bad news:
*if you try to create a new topic, you first can edit as much as you like, but on saving, you get a smallish pink box with the message "Blocked". Blocked? Oh, I'm not really blocked, I just can't save my new topic.
*If you want to reply to existing topics, no problem! You can reply to topics on fully protected pages. Which means that protecting a Flow-enabled page has very little effect and won't do a lot to stop vandals and the like. Yes, this is completely ready to be rolled out to more pages. Fram (talk) 08:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
:picard:

Good lord, people, what's so hard about "get it working first, then give the public a crack at it"?

:frustrated:
The Flow software and most of Wikimedia is designed from the top down. What I mean by this is that they worry so much about levels of indenting and how to make sure conversations are structured that they forget to install basic features like deleting and editing posts.
Always improving...

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:18 pm


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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Mason » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:21 pm

Konveyor Belt wrote:The Flow software and most of Wikimedia is designed from the top down. What I mean by this is that they worry so much about levels of indenting and how to make sure conversations are structured that they forget to install basic features like deleting and editing posts.
Yep. Thing is, top-down design works great if you're a brilliant designer. Apple's famous for designing how it thinks things should be, rather than what the public expects, and leading the marketplace in its direction.

But there's a difference between saying "our smart phones don't have USB ports, and they won't, love it or leave it" and "oh, we didn't know you'd need a way of entering a '4' in a phone number. Could you just hit '2' twice? No? That calls a different number? OK, well, we'll put that in Bugzilla for considering in Q2 but meanwhile here we're going to go ahead and ship a million of them."

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Jim » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:27 pm

Mason wrote: Good lord, people, what's so hard about "get it working first, then give the public a crack at it"?
Nothing. If you have the ability to do it.
They don't.

Now, after all the criticisms I've made of the WMF development team, it may come as a surprise if I say I feel sorry for them. But I do.
There are people in that team who are not Erik, and not Mr "Whisky and barbed comments" who could possibly function perfectly well as cogs in the wheel given the right overall direction.
The problem is massive rapid growth without any competent control at all.

It wasn't wrong to realise that the software needed love and care. It wasn't wrong to invest in that. It was wrong to trust that investment to the incompetent "leaders" they did, and it is wrong that mistake will be the last thing to be addressed. (if it ever is)

Jimmy thinks there's a culture problem amongst editors, that's quite clear - he's correct, there is. Jimmy, there always will be - it's the nature of the beast. You can't ever "fix" that completely, and it's not something you can attempt to fix with a blunt software instrument. It's the crowd-sourcing, warts and all, which you wanted and got. It needs management, not a bludgeon. It's also a diversion which is convenient for you to pay lip service to right now.

Now, Jimmy has an inkling of all this, in his "mistakes were made (by us), stop being mean (to us), Purple will fix it" comments about the development mess. But Purple won't. She can't, under her limited terms of engagement, even if she's capable.

I think Jimmy suspects this is a pivotal point, from observing his recent panics. He's right. It is.

I don't think he knows what to do about it, who to ask, or where to hide, and frankly I don't envy him. Frankenstein, meet monster.

Oh, and I looked at the Flow test pages Fram got so upset about, and the history, and saw what he said and did. He's right. It's amateur hour. Flow is a huge change to the way wikipedia functions. It will never work like this. It's incredible they think it will. I know we say this all the time, but really, this could be a cock-up too far. There might not be any way back after this.

Best thing they could do?
  • Realise this is panic-driven (something has to change - let's change this by Thursday)
    accept the lovely discovery that change is good and must happen
    prioritise "things we fundamentally need to change" over "things it seems easy to change" and "things we'd just like to"/"things that superficially justify a paycheck"
    reject change that doesn't improve until it can be fixed, or reimagined, and does actually, tangibly improve
    effectively recruit, assess and manage those tasked with steering, driving and implementing all this.
That's quite hard if you want to be big league. But in the end it's not optional.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Mason wrote:
Konveyor Belt wrote:The Flow software and most of Wikimedia is designed from the top down. What I mean by this is that they worry so much about levels of indenting and how to make sure conversations are structured that they forget to install basic features like deleting and editing posts.
Yep. Thing is, top-down design works great if you're a brilliant designer. Apple's famous for designing how it thinks things should be, rather than what the public expects, and leading the marketplace in its direction.

But there's a difference between saying "our smart phones don't have USB ports, and they won't, love it or leave it" and "oh, we didn't know you'd need a way of entering a '4' in a phone number. Could you just hit '2' twice? No? That calls a different number? OK, well, we'll put that in Bugzilla for considering in Q2 but meanwhile here we're going to go ahead and ship a million of them."
I am awarding Mason/28 Bytes the
⎈ It's Only The Truth That Hurts WPO Barnstar

Nicely played.

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Jim » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:16 pm

Randy from Boise wrote: I am awarding Mason/28 Bytes the
⎈ It's Only The Truth That Hurts WPO Barnstar
Nicely played.
Seconded. I apologise for posting right around that without acknowledging what a well worded analogy it really was.
Here: * I can only afford that one - but well played, indeed, 28. :headbanger:

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:19 pm

Jim wrote: Oh, and I looked at the Flow test pages Fram got so upset about, and the history, and saw what he said and did. He's right. It's amateur hour. Flow is a huge change to the way wikipedia functions. It will never work like this. It's incredible they think it will. I know we say this all the time, but really, this could be a cock-up too far. There might not be any way back after this.
And here's the deal... Implementing Flow is going to mean the auto-archiving of EVERY EXISTING TALK PAGE.

Whoosh! It will be gone, locked up in safe little archival folders that nobody ever sees.

And this indisputable piece of shit software, based upon a faulty premise that talk-pages need to be "friendly" to the manipulative efforts of every drive-by user, will be ALL THERE IS with NO MEANS OF GOING BACK TO THE STATUS QUO ANTE without the loss of everything generated during the Period of Flow.

Lots of caps above and there needs to be, because the dimwits in San Francisco have probably already invested high six figures or low seven figures of donor dollars in this mess and that means a bureaucratic freight train that will be hard to stop.

Erik Möller needs to be fired, that's the first step in fixing what ails WMF. It's way easier to obsess on diversionary issues...

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Jim » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:31 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Jim wrote: Oh, and I looked at the Flow test pages Fram got so upset about, and the history, and saw what he said and did. He's right. It's amateur hour. Flow is a huge change to the way wikipedia functions. It will never work like this. It's incredible they think it will. I know we say this all the time, but really, this could be a cock-up too far. There might not be any way back after this.
And here's the deal... Implementing Flow is going to mean the auto-archiving of EVERY EXISTING TALK PAGE.

Whoosh! It will be gone, locked up in safe little archival folders that nobody ever sees.

And this indisputable piece of shit software, based upon a faulty premise that talk-pages need to be "friendly" to the manipulative efforts of every drive-by user, will be ALL THERE IS with NO MEANS OF GOING BACK TO THE STATUS QUO ANTE without the loss of everything generated during the Period of Flow.

Lots of caps above and there needs to be, because the dimwits in San Francisco have probably already invested high six figures or low seven figures of donor dollars in this mess and that means a bureaucratic freight train that will be hard to stop.

Erik Möller needs to be fired, that's the first step in fixing what ails WMF. It's way easier to obsess on diversionary issues...

RfB
It's almost like they just wanted to get rid of folks like you and I, and Fram, and Eric, and start again with a clean slate, full of Facebooky loving thoughtfulness.

But... that would be... unthinkable... surely?

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:40 pm

Jim wrote: It's almost like they just wanted to get rid of folks like you and I, Tim, and start again with a clean slate.

But that would be... unthinkable... surely?
Ha, ha, of course they would love to be able to pick and choose the cast of their "Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit"™ to eliminate the noisy 5% who are pissing on their parade. Their problem is that the noisy 5% are only stating things which most of the 85% that aren't Wikimania Friendly Space Churchcampers™ also believe — as we witnessed in the recent German RFC on Erik Möller's Superprotection scheme...

The 15% who are actually Churchcampers (many of them with paystubs to prove it) seem to think that with selective purges and magical new software tools an influx of 100,000 diverse, friendly citizen-scholars can be assimilated and indoctrinated into the WikiWay and that a blissful Friendly, Forgiving, Cooperative, Loving WikiWorld will result.

Of course this is bollocks...

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Jim » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:50 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Jim wrote: It's almost like they just wanted to get rid of folks like you and I, Tim, and start again with a clean slate.

But that would be... unthinkable... surely?
Ha, ha, of course they would love to be able to pick and choose the cast of their "Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit"™ to eliminate the noisy 5% who are pissing on their parade. Their problem is that the noisy 5% are only stating things which most of the 85% that aren't Wikimania Friendly Space Churchcampers™ also believe — as we witnessed in the recent German RFC on Erik Möller's Superprotection scheme...

The 15% who are actually Churchcampers (many of them with paystubs to prove it) seem to think that with selective purges and magical new software tools an influx of 100,000 diverse, friendly citizen-scholars can be assimilated and indoctrinated into the WikiWay and that a blissful Friendly, Forgiving, Cooperative, Loving WikiWorld will result.

Of course this is bollocks...

RfB
Don't underestimate their ability to believe that the aim is achievable and desirable, and that what they are doing is a means to it.
After all, we just spent several threads expounding on their lack of strategic awareness.

Just saying..

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:06 pm

Jim wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Jim wrote: It's almost like they just wanted to get rid of folks like you and I, Tim, and start again with a clean slate.

But that would be... unthinkable... surely?
Ha, ha, of course they would love to be able to pick and choose the cast of their "Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit"™ to eliminate the noisy 5% who are pissing on their parade. Their problem is that the noisy 5% are only stating things which most of the 85% that aren't Wikimania Friendly Space Churchcampers™ also believe — as we witnessed in the recent German RFC on Erik Möller's Superprotection scheme...

The 15% who are actually Churchcampers (many of them with paystubs to prove it) seem to think that with selective purges and magical new software tools an influx of 100,000 diverse, friendly citizen-scholars can be assimilated and indoctrinated into the WikiWay and that a blissful Friendly, Forgiving, Cooperative, Loving WikiWorld will result.

Of course this is bollocks...

RfB
Don't underestimate their ability to believe that the aim is achievable and desirable, and that what they are doing is a means to it.
After all, we just spent several threads expounding on their lack of strategic awareness.

Just saying..
I'm not at all being facetious about what the Churchcampers believe, only sarcastic in my tone... They honestly believe that whacking Eric Corbett and a few dozen people that squirm too much is not only a desirable outcome but absolutely essential in creating a climate that will allow their wonderful new Friendly tools like Visual Editor and Flow to have their desired effect — turning around the decline in volunteer participation at all levels of WP (and incidentally demonstrating the efficacy of additional donations to the WMF).

There is a huge chasm between theory and practice, however. The only real mechanism they have for making this happen would be for Jimmy Wales to run around lopping off heads and citing the Divine Right of Kings as a rationale.

Of course, one of the religious articles of faith of The Holy San Franciscan Church is that Anyone Can Edit™, including IPs and accounts created five minutes ago, so few would actually be silenced and a massive shitstorm would ensue...

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Jim » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:15 pm

We basically agree, then.
I'm just not sure what the outcome of your "shitstorm" would be.
I don't think it would be good.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:33 pm

Jim wrote:We basically agree, then.
I'm just not sure what the outcome of your "shitstorm" would be.
I don't think it would be good.
WMF has a poor record in shitstorms.

They are a minority faction after all. Much like Tolkien's Ents, the majority has strength beyond the minority's imagination when things get stirred up. WMF has proven itself incapable of withstanding the onslaught more than once now.

Bureaucrats need a steady pond with a self-policing majority to operate... That's all they want really — calm water and increasing cash so their budgeting doesn't require hard choices. Shitstorms cause rough water and have the potential to imperil the cash flow...

RfB

(Addenda: Also like Tolkien's Ents, the majority is all male and is no longer reproducing itself!)

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Jim » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:40 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
Jim wrote:We basically agree, then.
I'm just not sure what the outcome of your "shitstorm" would be.
I don't think it would be good.
WMF has a poor record in shitstorms.

They are a minority faction after all. Much like Tolkien's Ents, when things get stirred up the majority has strength beyond the minority's imagination. WMF has proven itself incapable of withstanding the onslaught more than once now.

Bureaucrats need a steady pond with a self-policing majority to operate... That's all they want really — calm water and increasing cash so their budgeting doesn't require hard choices. Shitstorms cause rough water and have the potential to imperil the cash flow...

RfB
And Tim, I love you, but it's not going that way right now, is it? They are fucking up bigtime, to an extent I have never seen before, and which may even be ultimately irretrievable.

I still think Flow could be the death of 'em. Not immediately, not in a big lightning strike. But they don't know when to pull back. At all.

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:46 pm

Jim wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Jim wrote:We basically agree, then.
I'm just not sure what the outcome of your "shitstorm" would be.
I don't think it would be good.
WMF has a poor record in shitstorms.

They are a minority faction after all. Much like Tolkien's Ents, when things get stirred up the majority has strength beyond the minority's imagination. WMF has proven itself incapable of withstanding the onslaught more than once now.

Bureaucrats need a steady pond with a self-policing majority to operate... That's all they want really — calm water and increasing cash so their budgeting doesn't require hard choices. Shitstorms cause rough water and have the potential to imperil the cash flow...

RfB
And Tim, I love you, but it's not going that way right now, is it? They are fucking up bigtime, to an extent I have never seen before, and which may even be ultimately irretrievable.

I still think Flow could be the death of 'em. Not immediately, not in a big lightning strike. But they don't know when to pull back. At all.
I'm sanguine about this. There is a lot of pushing and shoving but thanks to the resolute effort of De-WP I think that the result is a stalemate rather than the resounding WMF victory that would have made Flow an inevitability.

If WMF is forced to prove that piece of shit WORKS before they can install it, they never will.

RfB

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Re: Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Unread post by Mason » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:52 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:I'm sanguine about this. There is a lot of pushing and shoving but thanks to the resolute effort of De-WP I think that the result is a stalemate rather than the resounding WMF victory that would have made Flow an inevitability.

If WMF is forced to prove that piece of shit WORKS before they can install it, they never will.

RfB
The Germans are throwing a bit of a wrench in it, no? If it were just en-wiki, Commons and some other projects I think she could safely say that her gamble paid off. The arbitration case fizzled out (they never did answer my questions :shrug:) and there's no way the en-wikipedians are going to spend the time, effort and money needed to fork, but the Germans... the Germans could make things very interesting for the WMF if their toes keep getting stepped on.

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