Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

[dogbiscuit]

I think that the WMF team find it difficult to distinguish between function and method, meaning that their audience is assertive that they need certain functionality and may be prepared to be open minded about by what method this is delivered. However it seems that the team think that the function is simply a bit of chat, so all the stuff that people are demanding is just some trivial nonsense to do with the old world of Wikipedia. They have failed to identify the various necessary processes that have evolved around the sparse interaction across Wikipedia. In fact, I'd say the majority of functional requirements that make talk pages special are related to the very large number of pages that a user may be required to interact with over time.

I think there is a strong parallel with their misunderstand being of agile development. After all if they fundamentally fail to understand the necessities of their own trade of software development, how are they to be expected to understand processes that other people want or need?

[Poetlister]

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Breakfast (T-H-L)

Isn't the very existence of WikiProject Breakfast an absurdity?

[Zoloft]

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Breakfast (T-H-L)

Isn't the very existence of WikiProject Breakfast an absurdity?

Bubble and squeak (T-H-L).

[Hex]

I just noticed now that when I was typing on a Flow page, the entire screen output starting from the "reply" window on down was quivering. It was particularly noticeable for the cancel/preview/reply buttons (in fact the vibrating green button was what made it obvious) but it applied to everything below the "blue link" to my name, including the editing box. For the record, it's a nice stable monitor, and I've never seen anything quiver on the screen before, but the quivering was directly instigated by each keystroke. Risker (talk) 03:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

@Risker: That's bugzilla:58657, which is fixed in the code-base, and that version should be live on Enwiki soon (either this Thursday, or next, if I understand correctly). Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, Quiddity. I don't usually look at the screen when I'm writing, and the quivering was pointed out to me by a family member walking past me about two meters away from the screen, so it's quite noticeable. Risker (talk) 21:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh hold on. I just read the bug, and that's not what I'm talking about at all. Think about the bottom of the screen being a little chihuahua out in the cold. *That's* the kind of quivering I mean. That bug seems to report jumping of the screen when the entire post isn't visible. Risker (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Where do they find these people? Where? The "community liaisons", the programmers, all of them.

This is exactly the same kind of slow-motion car crash that VE was. Vigilant totally called it.

[EricBarbour]

Where do they find these people? Where? The "community liaisons", the programmers, all of them.

"These people" find them. Crazy magnet, remember?

[Vigilant]

I just noticed now that when I was typing on a Flow page, the entire screen output starting from the "reply" window on down was quivering. It was particularly noticeable for the cancel/preview/reply buttons (in fact the vibrating green button was what made it obvious) but it applied to everything below the "blue link" to my name, including the editing box. For the record, it's a nice stable monitor, and I've never seen anything quiver on the screen before, but the quivering was directly instigated by each keystroke. Risker (talk) 03:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

@Risker: That's bugzilla:58657, which is fixed in the code-base, and that version should be live on Enwiki soon (either this Thursday, or next, if I understand correctly). Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, Quiddity. I don't usually look at the screen when I'm writing, and the quivering was pointed out to me by a family member walking past me about two meters away from the screen, so it's quite noticeable. Risker (talk) 21:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh hold on. I just read the bug, and that's not what I'm talking about at all. Think about the bottom of the screen being a little chihuahua out in the cold. *That's* the kind of quivering I mean. That bug seems to report jumping of the screen when the entire post isn't visible. Risker (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Where do they find these people? Where? The "community liaisons", the programmers, all of them.

This is exactly the same kind of slow-motion car crash that VE was. Vigilant totally called it.

They hire people like these because the hiring managers are terrible themselves.
Interviewing other people is the most difficult skill I've ever had to develop. It takes time and persistence to get good at it.

In the WMF's fever dreams, that's old world thinking that no longer applies to hiring from within their young, fervent user base.

Until the feedback loop is closed where people who don't do good work are fired, nothing will change.

Until they formalize hiring and screen out unqualified applicants with no history of delivering similar projects, they are doomed to repeat these types of projects over and over and over again.

In no company that I've worked for, either as a consultant or employee, would this type of project management and engineering have been tolerated. In no company I can think of would customer facing employees like these "community liaisons" not been fired and blacklisted.

There's literally no section of the WMF that I've looked at that doesn't make me shake my head.
Executive management, project management, product management, HR, legal, engineering, QA, customer liaison...

Actually, fundraising seems to be doing a bang up job and IT seems to keep the servers and connections running pretty well.

The rest...hire new, quality, experienced, proven managers across the board and then stand back and let them weed out the existing deadwood. I'd predict an 80% turnover within six months.

[Bielle]

I just noticed now that when I was typing on a Flow page, the entire screen output starting from the "reply" window on down was quivering. It was particularly noticeable for the cancel/preview/reply buttons (in fact the vibrating green button was what made it obvious) but it applied to everything below the "blue link" to my name, including the editing box. For the record, it's a nice stable monitor, and I've never seen anything quiver on the screen before, but the quivering was directly instigated by each keystroke. Risker (talk) 03:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

@Risker: That's bugzilla:58657, which is fixed in the code-base, and that version should be live on Enwiki soon (either this Thursday, or next, if I understand correctly). Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, Quiddity. I don't usually look at the screen when I'm writing, and the quivering was pointed out to me by a family member walking past me about two meters away from the screen, so it's quite noticeable. Risker (talk) 21:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh hold on. I just read the bug, and that's not what I'm talking about at all. Think about the bottom of the screen being a little chihuahua out in the cold. *That's* the kind of quivering I mean. That bug seems to report jumping of the screen when the entire post isn't visible. Risker (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Where do they find these people? Where? The "community liaisons", the programmers, all of them.

This is exactly the same kind of slow-motion car crash that VE was. Vigilant totally called it.

They hire people like these because the hiring managers are terrible themselves.
Interviewing other people is the most difficult skill I've ever had to develop. It takes time and persistence to get good at it.

In the WMF's fever dreams, that's old world thinking that no longer applies to hiring from within their young, fervent user base.

Until the feedback loop is closed where people who don't do good work are fired, nothing will change.

Until they formalize hiring and screen out unqualified applicants with no history of delivering similar projects, they are doomed to repeat these types of projects over and over and over again.

In no company that I've worked for, either as a consultant or employee, would this type of project management and engineering have been tolerated. In no company I can think of would customer facing employees like these "community liaisons" not been fired and blacklisted.

There's literally no section of the WMF that I've looked at that doesn't make me shake my head.
Executive management, project management, product management, HR, legal, engineering, QA, customer liaison...

Actually, fundraising seems to be doing a bang up job and IT seems to keep the servers and connections running pretty well.

The rest...hire new, quality, experienced, proven managers across the board and then stand back and let them weed out the existing deadwood. I'd predict an 80% turnover within six months.

Curious that the same attitude towards expertise that prevails on en.wp also prevails in WMF's hiring practices. Even more curious that the same behaviours encouraged at all the drama boards appears also to be encouraged in WMF's employees: Noise, noise, noise, explosion, , flap, flap, flap, and nothing changes.

[SB_Johnny]

Curious that the same attitude towards expertise that prevails on en.wp also prevails in WMF's hiring practices. Even more curious that the same behaviours encouraged at all the drama boards appears also to be encouraged in WMF's employees: Noise, noise, noise, explosion, , flap, flap, flap, and nothing changes.

I don't actually find that surprising, since both "communities" had their original cores put together by Jimmy Wales.

The funny thing is that the two "communities" have grown to hate each other (and seem to grow further apart by the day), despite the fact that they were pulled from the same pools and are in theory working towards the same goal.

[dogbiscuit]

Curious that the same attitude towards expertise that prevails on en.wp also prevails in WMF's hiring practices. Even more curious that the same behaviours encouraged at all the drama boards appears also to be encouraged in WMF's employees: Noise, noise, noise, explosion, , flap, flap, flap, and nothing changes.

I don't actually find that surprising, since both "communities" had their original cores put together by Jimmy Wales.

The funny thing is that the two "communities" have grown to hate each other (and seem to grow further apart by the day), despite the fact that they were pulled from the same pools and are in theory working towards the same goal.

It would not surprise me that within the WMF there are similar divisions. Given that the Wikipedia communities are fractured and fight against each other, WMF will have the same tendency to fracture.

[lilburne]

They are more likely to hunker down and fight the common enemy. We should encourage that.

[DanMurphy]

Apparently Flow is breaking stuff and people are unhappy. They're told they shouldn't be unhappy because the test deployment was agreed to in straw polls of the two "projects" involved. This was the straw poll at Wikiproject Hampshire.

Straw poll

I'm ready to trial
WaggersTALK 12:33, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
☠ Jaguar ☠ 17:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I object to any live implementation of Flow at this time

DES (talk) 00:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Result
Hi all. This is a very brief note, to let you know the current plans. January 23 (Thursday 27 (afternoon PST) is the current target date for release on this page, and at WP:WikiProject Breakfast, as well as at WT:Flow and WT:Flow/Design FAQ (WT:Flow/Developer_test_page). This will give the devs time to work on a bug-sprint, so that they can concentrate on the fresh feedback from us when it goes live. Thanks again, Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 02:01, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Yay! Consensus!

[Poetlister]

The funny thing is that the two "communities" have grown to hate each other (and seem to grow further apart by the day), despite the fact that they were pulled from the same pools and are in theory working towards the same goal.

That's elementary physics. Likes repel; opposites attract.

[Vigilant]

Shit's on fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ped_NOW.21

Run in circles screaming!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flow

I would protect the three pages that have Flow enabled now to stop this disruption from happening, but, oh right, protection isn't enabled on this pages at enwiki (this has been noted at MediaWiki, but the admins there refused to believe this). And I can't delete the three pages either, since that hasn't been disabled for Flow a well. And I can't remove Flow from them, since while Flow is opt-in, apparently we aren't able to choose this, we have to ask the MEdiaWiki people to change this. I thought VisualEditorr couldn't be topped as worst release ever, but the WMF sure is trying their hardest to prove me wrong! Fram (talk) 15:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Ow!

Have my babies, Fram!

[EricBarbour]

Shit's on fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ped_NOW.21

And he's right back to fighting with Mr. Keyes. Yawn.

[Vigilant]

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA


From here:

Tryptofish, as the conversations about Flow show we're totally willing to do that . At the moment, though, Flow is expected to take around two years to have entirely wrapped up, and GlobalProfiles is going to be after that. So, it may be a bit early. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this subject should be strongly linked to the WMF Salaries thread...

TWO YEARS! For chat!

I..just...

[Vigilant]

That'll make it better.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_tal ... down_block

Poor Mo:eller,
That's not going to look good on the ExecDirector application.

[EricBarbour]

I've blocked you for 24 hours. Uncivil behavior like "just shut your big mouth please" as in this comment is out of line and not acceptable on this wiki. Repeat behavior will lead to an indefinite block. Have a nice day, --Eloquence (talk) 08:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Please block me indefinitely then. And keep your "Have a nice day" to yourself. Any idea what impression that gives? I have blocked you, have a nice day! I presume that nothing will be done about incompetent admins like Jasper Deng, again? Looking at the root cause of a problem is too difficult probably. Fram (talk) 08:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes Done If you'd like to contribute to this wiki again and are prepared to respect basic civility standards, feel free to let me or another admin know.--Eloquence (talk) 09:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

If I see you taking some action against Jasper Deng c.s., I might consider your offer. If the admins arouund here aren't supposed to follow basic civility rules like AGF, be open, don't be arrogant, and so on, then I would rather not belong to this club. Fram (talk) 09:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I've reversed the indefinite block, we don't usually block indefinitely per request on Wikimedia wikis because hastyness should not be encouraged and I don't think you really wanted to either. I suggest to stick to your original decision "Repeat behavior will lead to an indefinite block". Feel free to reinstate your last block if you feel it complies with wiki practices, of course. --Nemo 09:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

@Nemo bis: The main question here is whether Fram is willing to respect basic standards of civility on this wiki. If the answer is "no, please block me indefinitely instead", then an indefinite ban is the correct response. I'm willing to wait 24 hours as originally proposed, and see if he does in fact calm down. However, due to his comments on this page ("incompetent admins like Jasper Deng" etc.) I've blocked Fram's talk page access during the time period as well. Uncivil behavior and personal attacks are unacceptable, period.--Eloquence (talk) 09:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi Fram, I've not opened the link above because I don't want to see Flow, but my personal suggestion is to completely avoid looking at it, testing it or even worse discussing it in any form, if there are strong emotions about it. I feel much better since I took this decision for myself. --Nemo 09:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Wise decision. However, we can either be confronted with a very poor Flow, or with something that has at least the basic functionalities in place before it is rolled out to enwiki and elsewhere. I tried to (and was assued that) we would get the second, but of course we got the first. And then the pompous admins here decide that they know better than the people that actually use it, and that they don't have to see anything, they just know better. Fine by me, let them drown in their own haughtiness then. Fram (talk) 09:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

You're not the resident lifeguard, you're not responsible of people's drowning. Just walk away from the pool/seaside and you'll be fine. --Nemo 09:16, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

They so funny, yup yup yup.

[Bielle]

That'll make it better.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_tal ... down_block

Poor Mo:eller,
That's not going to look good on the ExecDirector application.

That's quite a conflict of interest, too.

[Cedric]

That'll make it better.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_tal ... down_block

Poor Mo:eller,
That's not going to look good on the ExecDirector application.

That presupposes that he would actually be required to submit a regular written application.

Remember, this is the WMF we are talking about.

[Kelly Martin]

Curious that the same attitude towards expertise that prevails on en.wp also prevails in WMF's hiring practices. Even more curious that the same behaviours encouraged at all the drama boards appears also to be encouraged in WMF's employees: Noise, noise, noise, explosion, , flap, flap, flap, and nothing changes.

I don't actually find that surprising, since both "communities" had their original cores put together by Jimmy Wales.

The funny thing is that the two "communities" have grown to hate each other (and seem to grow further apart by the day), despite the fact that they were pulled from the same pools and are in theory working towards the same goal.

It would not surprise me that within the WMF there are similar divisions. Given that the Wikipedia communities are fractured and fight against each other, WMF will have the same tendency to fracture.

Deep divisions within the WMF were evident to me in 2006. Already it was obvious that various functionaries were building their own fiefdoms. The degree to which communications were being siloed within the organization was amazing for what at that time was a very small group. I can't imagine it's gotten any better at all since.

[The Joy]

That'll make it better.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_tal ... down_block

Poor Mo:eller,
That's not going to look good on the ExecDirector application.

[dogbiscuit]

Not following the exact detail, but is From explaining that if someone sacrificed a sock on the altar of Flow and took a certain action they could break the whole of Wikipedia? Sounds like a plan to me.

[Vigilant]

Not following the exact detail, but is From explaining that if someone sacrificed a sock on the altar of Flow and took a certain action they could break the whole of Wikipedia? Sounds like a plan to me.

I think this is what Fram did:
Add a "transclusion" to a flow page as a comment. {{WP:ANI}} would be my first choice.
There's a substitution bug where everyone who commented at the target of the "transclusion" page gets notified of every comment at the flow page where the "transclusion" was made.
There's no easy way to turn off the notifications.
If you have email notifications enabled it's worse.

[DanMurphy]

I've blocked you for 24 hours. Uncivil behavior like "just shut your big mouth please" as in this comment is out of line and not acceptable on this wiki. Repeat behavior will lead to an indefinite block. Have a nice day, -- Loving and thoughtful deputy director of the Wikimedia Foundation Erik Moller on 5 February 2014.

The crime? Expressing an opinion Moller and the Wikimedia Foundation don't like.

[dogbiscuit]

Not following the exact detail, but is From explaining that if someone sacrificed a sock on the altar of Flow and took a certain action they could break the whole of Wikipedia? Sounds like a plan to me.

I think this is what Fram did:
Add a "transclusion" to a flow page as a comment. {{WP:ANI}} would be my first choice.
There's a substitution bug where everyone who commented at the target of the "transclusion" page gets notified of every comment at the flow page where the "transclusion" was made.
There's no easy way to turn off the notifications.
If you have email notifications enabled it's worse.

I was rather hoping it was more permanent - presumably removing the transclusion fixes the problem. That's no fun.

[Vigilant]

Not following the exact detail, but is From explaining that if someone sacrificed a sock on the altar of Flow and took a certain action they could break the whole of Wikipedia? Sounds like a plan to me.

I think this is what Fram did:
Add a "transclusion" to a flow page as a comment. {{WP:ANI}} would be my first choice.
There's a substitution bug where everyone who commented at the target of the "transclusion" page gets notified of every comment at the flow page where the "transclusion" was made.
There's no easy way to turn off the notifications.
If you have email notifications enabled it's worse.

I was rather hoping it was more permanent - presumably removing the transclusion fixes the problem. That's no fun.

I think it's rather worse than that.
Once the transclusion has been processed, there's a substitution element that permanently tags every user on the target page for notifications from the page on which the transclusion is added.

[dogbiscuit]

I was rather hoping it was more permanent - presumably removing the transclusion fixes the problem. That's no fun.

I think it's rather worse than that.
Once the transclusion has been processed, there's a substitution element that permanently tags every user on the target page for notifications from the page on which the transclusion is added.

Yay!

[Kelly Martin]

Once the transclusion has been processed, there's a substitution element that permanently tags every user on the target page for notifications from the page on which the transclusion is added.

That's utterly awesome.

Somebody needs to seriously write up a detailed analysis of all of these mistakes as an object lesson for software engineers and product managers on how not to do software development. The only reason this is being tolerated at all is because Wikipedia's core user base is cultishly devoted to the project and will suffer through almost indefinite hardship.

[mac]

User:Cm8587a (T-C-L)

Cm8587a (talk | contribs)
Hello,

My name is Carmen and I am currently enrolled in a class at American University that specifically focuses on Wikipedia practices. My current assignment is to pick a WikiProject to participate in and I am very interested in WikiProject: Breakfast. I would love to participate here and help with the expansion of this project in any way that is needed. I have checked the to-do- list and I see there is work to be done and many more things to add. I currently live in the DC area and would love to be able to contribute about Brunch in DC as well as any other work that is needed to help improve article status. I am really new to Wikipedia, willing to learn, so any advice or recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
Actions2 days agoTue, 04 Feb 2014 15:55:27 GMT
Reply

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =590727905

I'm Carmen [...] a student at American University currently in a Comm class called: Wikipedia and Society

It is hard to not feel sorry for this person, who wandered into Wikiproject:Breakfast by either bad luck, or serendipity.

[edited to remove her last name, in case she re-thinks that]

[Hex]

Just wondering - how many bugtrackers does a project need? One? Two? Three?

[dogbiscuit]

Just wondering - how many bugtrackers does a project need? One? Two? Three?

Based on VE, a lot more than they are currently using.

[Vigilant]

Just wondering - how many bugtrackers does a project need? One? Two? Three?

Based on VE, a lot more than they are currently using.

Heh.

I don't think adding more infrastructure is the way to happiness.

Perhaps they should try to build something that the editor base WANTS?
Perhaps they should try finding people who can actually accomplish these tasks once identified.

[Vigilant]

(cur | prev) 01:47, 30 April 2014‎ Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (879 bytes) (-1,812)‎ . . (Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Wikipedia talk:Flow/Archive 9) (bot) (undo)
(cur | prev) 08:43, 19 April 2014‎ Kephir (talk | contribs)‎ . . (2,691 bytes) (+138)‎ . . (→‎Flow: O RLY) (undo)
(cur | prev) 22:37, 18 April 2014‎ Rich Farmbrough (talk | contribs)‎ . . (2,553 bytes) (+4)‎ . . (→‎Flow) (undo)
(cur | prev) 22:37, 18 April 2014‎ Rich Farmbrough (talk | contribs)‎ . . (2,549 bytes) (+441)‎ . . (undo)
(cur | prev) 01:42, 15 April 2014‎ Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (2,108 bytes) (-16,683)‎ . . (Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Wikipedia talk:Flow/Archive 9) (bot) (undo)
(cur | prev) 01:47, 10 April 2014‎ Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (18,791 bytes) (-5,042)‎ . . (Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Wikipedia talk:Flow/Archive 9) (bot) (undo)
(cur | prev) 20:45, 7 April 2014‎ Quiddity (WMF) (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,833 bytes) (+152)‎ . . (→‎[68f38336] 2014-04-07 11:36:55: Fatal exception of type Flow\Exception\InvalidActionException: addendum reply to 192.91.60.10) (undo)
(cur | prev) 20:22, 7 April 2014‎ Quiddity (WMF) (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,681 bytes) (+430)‎ . . (→‎[68f38336] 2014-04-07 11:36:55: Fatal exception of type Flow\Exception\InvalidActionException: reply to 192.91.60.10) (undo)
(cur | prev) 11:39, 7 April 2014‎ 192.91.60.10 (talk)‎ . . (23,251 bytes) (+647)‎ . . (→‎[68f38336] 2014-04-07 11:36:55: Fatal exception of type Flow\Exception\InvalidActionException: new section) (undo)
(cur | prev) 22:29, 4 April 2014‎ Quiddity (WMF) (talk | contribs)‎ . . (22,604 bytes) (+1,298)‎ . . (→‎"An ounce of performance is worth pounds of promises." -- Mae West: replies) (undo)
(cur | prev) 22:27, 4 April 2014‎ Quiddity (WMF) (talk | contribs)‎ . . (21,306 bytes) (+766)‎ . . (→‎Admin-only problems: reply) (undo)
(cur | prev) 07:02, 4 April 2014‎ Fram (talk | contribs)‎ . . (20,540 bytes) (+1,380)‎ . . (→‎"An ounce of performance is worth pounds of promises." -- Mae West: Reply) (undo)
(cur | prev) 04:34, 4 April 2014‎ Guy Macon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (19,160 bytes) (+1,985)‎ . . (→‎"An ounce of performance is worth pounds of promises." -- Mae West: Is that a page where we document what we have decided in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?) (undo)
(cur | prev) 00:10, 4 April 2014‎ Quiddity (WMF) (talk | contribs)‎ . . (17,175 bytes) (+1,303)‎ . . (→‎"An ounce of performance is worth pounds of promises." -- Mae West: reply to Johnuniq and Fram) (undo)
(cur | prev) 07:40, 2 April 2014‎ Fram (talk | contribs)‎ . . (15,872 bytes) (+1,118)‎ . . (→‎"An ounce of performance is worth pounds of promises." -- Mae West: Reply) (undo)
(cur | prev) 01:46, 2 April 2014‎ Johnuniq (talk | contribs)‎ . . (14,754 bytes) (+1,034)‎ . . (→‎"An ounce of performance is worth pounds of promises." -- Mae West: docs still needed) (undo)
(cur | prev) 12:22, 1 April 2014‎ Fram (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,720 bytes) (+1,345)‎ . . (→‎Admin-only problems: Example of promised and actual "improvements".) (undo)
(cur | prev) 07:10, 1 April 2014‎ Fram (talk | contribs)‎ . . (12,375 bytes) (+1,115)‎ . . (→‎Admin-only problems: Replies) (undo)

Tons and tons of interest in the new comment system...

A month goes by and we have the following edit counts on the primary page for this grand debacle in waiting:
5 from a WMF employee
3 from a bot which made the vast, overwhelming changes by byte count on this page
4 from Fram, a rabid hater, rightly so, of the new system
6 nearly random comments from others

Way to build the excitement WMF engineering!
Perhaps in a year or two you'll get around to making that page for Flow where are the things that are decided are written down.

Morons.

[Hex]

I'm just going to repost a whole comment by Fram as it's completely on the money.

The 14-day test of Flow is ongoing (yeah right), the roadmap very realistic ("February 2014-June 2014: User talk beta feature opt-in, Limited article talk trial, ..."), the exchange of ideas and improvements impressive. Dead as a dodo.

A random example, Wikipedia:Flow/Community engagement#Release plan (T-H-L). "For the remainder of 2013, we've plotted..." yes, off to a good start. "Any feedback they might have – good or bad – will be gathered on the Flow portal talkpage. This page will be archived to avoid confusion between older and newer discussions and will also be converted to use Flow, as a way of forcing us to confront deficiencies in the software we expect others to use." The Flow portal talkpage, that is this page, right? Which, obviously, hasn't been converted to use Flow. Bye bye, promises by the WMF.

The end of the page is really brilliant:

"Current medium-term (January through March 2014) plans include some or all of the following:

• approaching more English Wikipedia WikiProjects about participating in a wider trial
• Flow-enabling new Beta features discussions on mediawiki.org
• creating a new beta feature option to Flow-enable a user talk page
• Flow-enabling a sample of articles under the scope of WikProjects that are using and happy with Flow
• approaching other language projects and sister projects to trial Flow in a limited opt-in fashion on their wikis
• converting Liquidthreads discussion on Mediawiki.org to Flow"

Before the trial, the promise was made that one possibility was to "End the trial and temporarily revert back to talkpages (all Flow discussion content will be turned back into free-form wikitext) while we implement any necessary changes". Why this hasn't been done while this project is flatlining is not exactly clear, even though the two projects are barely used it would be a good gesture by the WMF that they are aware that the trial has indicated that the software wasn't really ready yet and that further live trialing is a bit premature at the moment. Fram (talk) 14:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I predict that this lemon is going to be the next LiquidThreads, not the next VisualEditor.

[Vigilant]

I predict that this lemon is going to be the next LiquidThreads, not the next VisualEditor.

Pssst: Those two projects are going to end the same way...

[Hex]

I predict that this lemon is going to be the next LiquidThreads, not the next VisualEditor.

Pssst: Those two projects are going to end the same way...

Yeah, but LQT never even got to the stage of being rolled out globally and causing widespread outrage, that's what I meant.

[Kumioko]

Flow is a lemon, it always has been and add to that the developers in charge of it who don't know or care what the needs of the community are but just want to do something cool and exciting to add to their resumes. Just like Visual editor the WMF isn't laible to backdown until the community goes into full revolt again.

With that said, here is my bitter snipe for the day. Personally I hope they release it and it causes a stampede of editors trampling each other as they head for the exits. I will stand in the park across the street yelling fire as I eat popcorn and watch the show. Every time the WMF shows their ass in one of these release a large group of editors leaves never to return. I hope that when the time comes to shut Wikipedia down like MySpace I can be there to watch.

[Thracia]

"Any feedback they might have – good or bad – will be gathered on the Flow portal talkpage. This page will be archived to avoid confusion between older and newer discussions and will also be converted to use Flow, as a way of forcing us to confront deficiencies in the software we expect others to use."

Wow, without apparent irony, they intend using the thing that doesn't work to discuss the thing that doesn't work, because this will force them to "confront" the fact that using the thing that doesn't work to discuss anything - including the thing that doesn't work - doesn't work.

[Bielle]

"Any feedback they might have – good or bad – will be gathered on the Flow portal talkpage. This page will be archived to avoid confusion between older and newer discussions and will also be converted to use Flow, as a way of forcing us to confront deficiencies in the software we expect others to use."

Wow, without apparent irony, they intend using the thing that doesn't work to discuss the thing that doesn't work, because this will force them to "confront" the fact that using the thing that doesn't work to discuss anything - including the thing that doesn't work - doesn't work.

"By Jove, I think he's got it!"

[Kelly Martin]

"Any feedback they might have – good or bad – will be gathered on the Flow portal talkpage. This page will be archived to avoid confusion between older and newer discussions and will also be converted to use Flow, as a way of forcing us to confront deficiencies in the software we expect others to use."

Wow, without apparent irony, they intend using the thing that doesn't work to discuss the thing that doesn't work, because this will force them to "confront" the fact that using the thing that doesn't work to discuss anything - including the thing that doesn't work - doesn't work.

Thus ensuring that there are no adverse performance reports, allowing them to declare 100% success in a matter of days!

Now, what are we going to do with all these underpants?

[EricBarbour]

"Any feedback they might have – good or bad – will be gathered on the Flow portal talkpage. This page will be archived to avoid confusion between older and newer discussions and will also be converted to use Flow, as a way of forcing us to confront deficiencies in the software we expect others to use."

These jokes, they write themselves!

[Vigilant]

"Any feedback they might have – good or bad – will be gathered on the Flow portal talkpage. This page will be archived to avoid confusion between older and newer discussions and will also be converted to use Flow, as a way of forcing us to confront deficiencies in the software we expect others to use."

These jokes, they write themselves!

[Hex]

Eating your own dog food (T-H-L)... you're doing it wrong.

Oh look, that article even mentions the WMF.

[Clipperton]

Eating your own dog food (T-H-L)... you're doing it wrong.

Oh look, that article even mentions the WMF.

I think the metaphor they use in software development for the above is 'Pathologically licking your own anal glands (T-H-L)'. (not actual article! Perhaps check the commons category though.)

[EricBarbour]

Eating your own dog food (T-H-L)... you're doing it wrong.

Oh look, that article even mentions the WMF.

Now that you've pointed out a WP article that criticizes the WMF, I would expect some nabob to show up and remove the "offending sentences".

Which were inserted on 21 August 2013. Replacing unsourced comments about Microsoft and Google with unsourced comments about the WMF, oddly enough.

This is really a shit article, although it would not appear so to an average user.

[Vigilant]

Lay it down, Fram!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =607727149

[Hex]

As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.

[Randy from Boise]

Eating your own dog food (T-H-L)... you're doing it wrong.

Oh look, that article even mentions the WMF.

I think the metaphor they use in software development for the above is 'Pathologically licking your own anal glands (T-H-L)'. (not actual article! Perhaps check the commons category though.)

Funny!

t

[mac]

Eating your own dog food (T-H-L)... you're doing it wrong.

Oh look, that article even mentions the WMF.

I think the metaphor they use in software development for the above is 'Pathologically licking your own anal glands (T-H-L)'. (not actual article! Perhaps check the commons category though.)

For a brief, shining moment, it was an article:

06:28, 9 May 2014 Gogo Dodo (talk | contribs) deleted page Pathologically licking your own anal glands (G3: Vandalism)

;_;

[Vigilant]

As it turns out, the title of this thread has now been proven wrong. The next debacle is Media Viewer.

Now, now.

It's still a horse race of awfulness.

The Preakness Stakes of asininity
The Kentucky Derby of fatuousness
The Belmont Stakes of ineptitude

The Triple Crown of incompetence