Flow - the next Visual Editor debacle

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:21 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564968820

It's a long, weird braindump from a director of engineering (how many of these guys do they have) that answers no questions that are asked on that page.

At some point, wouldn't you WMF devs like to deliver something that your customers actually want?
I can't imagine that morale if very high inside if you have anybody who takes pride in their work.

I wonder about this talk
http://www.northeastphp.org/talks/view/ ... -Wikipedia

The goal of Features Engineering is to reverse that editor trend. This talk covers 10 concepts in the modern web that Wikipedia is leveraging to reverse the decline.

Should be a doozy.

Wer900 · Unread post by **Wer900** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:22 pm

Vigilant wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564968820

It's a long, weird braindump from a director of engineering (how many of these guys do they have) that answers no questions that are asked on that page.

At some point, wouldn't you WMF devs like to deliver something that your customers actually want?
I can't imagine that morale if very high inside if you have anybody who takes pride in their work.

Flow actually seems like a good idea in principle, but again, screw it if only VE will work with it.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:31 pm

Flow not getting the reception they envisioned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flow

Lots and lots of very unhappy people on that page.

Alison · Unread post by **Alison** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:42 pm

Aunt Flow?

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:44 pm

For Wikimedia, it's just another day at the orifice.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:02 pm

Alison wrote:Aunt Flow?

I know, I'm an immature shit at the best of times.

For Wikimedia, it's just another day at the orifice.

He did it toooooo, ma!!!

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:08 pm

Vigilant wrote:Flow not getting the reception they envisioned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flow

Lots and lots of very unhappy people on that page.

You have to wonder what the Hell the WMF thinks it's doing. It really only has two assets: Wikipedia and the Wikimedia software, and it's systematically destroying both. Is it deliberate or simply stupidity?

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:21 pm

Malleus wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Flow not getting the reception they envisioned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flow

Lots and lots of very unhappy people on that page.
You have to wonder what the Hell the WMF thinks it's doing. It really only has two assets: Wikipedia and the Wikimedia software, and it's systematically destroying both. Is it deliberate or simply stupidity?

Here, let me do it this time:

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:22 pm

Malleus wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Flow not getting the reception they envisioned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flow

Lots and lots of very unhappy people on that page.
You have to wonder what the Hell the WMF thinks it's doing. It really only has two assets: Wikipedia and the Wikimedia software, and it's systematically destroying both. Is it deliberate or simply stupidity?

At the risk of repeating myself, the have the worst hiring practices I've ever seen.

The fact that the developers are driving the delivery is so utterly wrong it's hard to describe.
There is no independent group taking feedback and prioritizing work.
Feedback is being ignored and swept under the rug. Bugs are misclassified as feature requests and denied.
They have no need to force the release delivery at this point. None.
If I were to guess, I'd take a smallish wager that Erik Mo:eller has a bonus tied to rollout.

VisualEnema and AuntFlow have the capability, and I am NOT exaggerating, to destroy the wikipedia editor pool.
They are rapidly alienating the veterans who produce most of the actual work.
When newbies show up to fix something, they are confused and put off as hell.

I couldn't have architected a bigger disaster if I was on the inside as a saboteur.

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:28 pm

Vigilant wrote:If I were to guess, I'd take a smallish wager that Erik Mo:eller has a bonus tied to rollout.

I wouldn't take that bet, as I think it's a given. No other explanation for the most cocked-up software deployment I've ever seen.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:24 am

Here's some interesting slides from our friend Brandon
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Spec ... _%28WMF%29

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rkflow.png

Favorite quote:

You have been blocked by Ironholds

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:27 am

Of all the retarded shit I've seen on wikipedia...
This takes the cake
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... rnstar.jpg

I can hear the conversations with some kid's parents...

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:32 am

Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:34 am

A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:57 am

Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

I wonder if the "posse" is out of date. Danese Cooper is definitely history.

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:29 am

Vigilant wrote:Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Jorm wrote:
Identity
+
Conversation
=
Community

No, No, No!

Common Interest
+
Common Purpose
=
Community

TungstenCarbide · Unread post by **TungstenCarbide** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Vigilant wrote:Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Oh for the love of god, what the hell is this guy giving lectures on how to create an encyclopedia for. What qualifications does he have for that? How many featured articles has he written? What evidence and method does he base these conclusion on? Or is he just some middle aged nobody who pulled it out of his ass?

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:01 pm

TungstenCarbide wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Oh for the love of god, what the hell is this guy giving lectures on how to create an encyclopedia for. What qualifications does he have for that? How many featured articles has he written? What evidence and method does he base these conclusion on? Or is he just some middle aged nobody who pulled it out of his ass?

You might as well be talking about Jimbo Wales, you know?

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:11 pm

thekohser wrote:
TungstenCarbide wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Oh for the love of god, what the hell is this guy giving lectures on how to create an encyclopedia for. What qualifications does he have for that? How many featured articles has he written? What evidence and method does he base these conclusion on? Or is he just some middle aged nobody who pulled it out of his ass?
You might as well be talking about Jimbo Wales, you know?

Or pretty much any of the WMF's staff. One of the reasons, perhaps the main reason, why the visual editor is so dreadful is that none of the developers have a clue about writing decent articles themselves, and didn't take the trouble to consult with those who do.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:32 pm

Malleus wrote:
thekohser wrote:
TungstenCarbide wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Oh for the love of god, what the hell is this guy giving lectures on how to create an encyclopedia for. What qualifications does he have for that? How many featured articles has he written? What evidence and method does he base these conclusion on? Or is he just some middle aged nobody who pulled it out of his ass?
You might as well be talking about Jimbo Wales, you know?
Or pretty much any of the WMF's staff. One of the reasons, perhaps the main reason, why the visual editor is so dreadful is that none of the developers have a clue about writing decent articles themselves, and didn't take the trouble to consult with those who do.

BINGO!

But, hey, he's got a ponytail and some tattoos!
And he describes himself as made out of whiskey and steel wool... which makes him sound like a biker wannabe.

I think I'm going to call him "the prospect" from now on.

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:38 pm

These WMF script kiddies talk endlessly about uses cases, apparently without even the slightest understanding that the whole idea underpinning use cases is that they're developed in conjunction with the end users, not conjured up out of their juvenile imaginations. Unless of course the WMF has unilaterally decided to redefine what's meant by a "use case", which is of course quite possible.

... or using their jargon, perhaps what I ought to have said is to resurface the conceptual structure of what's meant by a use case.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:24 pm

Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!

There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY

Bielle · Unread post by **Bielle** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:23 pm

Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY

?

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:30 pm

Bielle wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY
?

That picture gives a clue as to what the problems are. When you employ that many developers to maintain and enhance what is in essence a pretty simple application then you have to make work for them. Simple as that.

Bielle · Unread post by **Bielle** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:35 pm

Malleus wrote:
Bielle wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY
?
That picture gives a clue as to what the problems are. When you employ that many developers to maintain and enhance what is in essence a pretty simple application then you have to make work for them. Simple as that.

I was wondering about the "gang signs".

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:38 pm

Bielle wrote:
Malleus wrote:
Bielle wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY
?
That picture gives a clue as to what the problems are. When you employ that many developers to maintain and enhance what is in essence a pretty simple application then you have to make work for them. Simple as that.
I was wondering about the "gang signs".

It's probably a condition of employment that you're stupid enough to wear one of their T-shirts.

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:48 pm

Bielle wrote:
Malleus wrote:
Bielle wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY
?
That picture gives a clue as to what the problems are. When you employ that many developers to maintain and enhance what is in essence a pretty simple application then you have to make work for them. Simple as that.
I was wondering about the "gang signs".

A few of the people are making finger signs usually associated with gang members. It's like a very slow rap video, if you substitute "Make code, get exceptions thrown" for "Make money, get bitches."

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:55 pm

I see that the brain-dead Jorm is making some kind of strange gesture, but can someone explain what this gang member sign is supposed to mean?

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:30 pm

Malleus wrote:I see that the brain-dead Jorm is making some kind of strange gesture, but can someone explain what this gang member sign is supposed to mean?

Gang signs like that usually denote which criminal gang you belong to. I think it was originally an LA gangster thing (think Crips and Bloods) - but has spread all over. For gangsters it's a way to assert identity, taunt/threaten others and show allegiance to the group.

In the US in the past decade or so it's become fashionable among privileged white youngsters (and some it appears who never grow up) to appropriate these gang signs. It is a ghastly, gormless phenomena that this "Jorm" guy is contributing to.

I wonder if you can spot him in the video below?

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:40 pm

DanMurphy wrote:
Malleus wrote:I see that the brain-dead Jorm is making some kind of strange gesture, but can someone explain what this gang member sign is supposed to mean?
Gang signs like that usually denote which criminal gang you belong to. I think it was originally an LA gangster thing (think Crips and Bloods) - but has spread all over. For gangsters it's a way to assert identity, taunt/threaten others and show allegiance to the group.

In the US in the past decade or so it's become fashionable among privileged white youngsters (and some it appears who never grow up) to appropriate these gang signs. It is a ghastly, gormless phenomena that this "Jorm" guy is contributing to.

I wonder if you can spot him in the video below?

How childish. I didn't spot Jorm's rather strange gesture in the video, but I'm amazed that the WMF consider that kind of thing to be acceptable

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:55 pm

Malleus wrote:
DanMurphy wrote:
Malleus wrote:I see that the brain-dead Jorm is making some kind of strange gesture, but can someone explain what this gang member sign is supposed to mean?
Gang signs like that usually denote which criminal gang you belong to. I think it was originally an LA gangster thing (think Crips and Bloods) - but has spread all over. For gangsters it's a way to assert identity, taunt/threaten others and show allegiance to the group.

In the US in the past decade or so it's become fashionable among privileged white youngsters (and some it appears who never grow up) to appropriate these gang signs. It is a ghastly, gormless phenomena that this "Jorm" guy is contributing to.

I wonder if you can spot him in the video below?

How childish. I didn't spot Jorm's rather strange gesture in the video, but I'm amazed that the WMF consider that kind of thing to be acceptable

I think the gesture he's aping is the one for "West Side" since it looks like "W." I think it first originated with West Side Crips, who've been involved in hundreds of murders down the years, in LA. Guys in this video making a similar gesture. I do not think they are Mr. Harris' "homies."

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:06 pm

DanMurphy wrote:
Malleus wrote:
DanMurphy wrote:
Malleus wrote:I see that the brain-dead Jorm is making some kind of strange gesture, but can someone explain what this gang member sign is supposed to mean?
Gang signs like that usually denote which criminal gang you belong to. I think it was originally an LA gangster thing (think Crips and Bloods) - but has spread all over. For gangsters it's a way to assert identity, taunt/threaten others and show allegiance to the group.

In the US in the past decade or so it's become fashionable among privileged white youngsters (and some it appears who never grow up) to appropriate these gang signs. It is a ghastly, gormless phenomena that this "Jorm" guy is contributing to.

I wonder if you can spot him in the video below?

How childish. I didn't spot Jorm's rather strange gesture in the video, but I'm amazed that the WMF consider that kind of thing to be acceptable
I think the gesture he's aping is the one for "West Side" since it looks like "W." I think it first originated with West Side Crips, who've been involved in hundreds of murders down the years, in LA. Guys in this video making a similar gesture. I do not think they are Mr. Harris' "homies."

I remain astonished that that kind of thing is considered acceptable by the WMF.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:04 pm

DanMurphy wrote: In the US in the past decade or so it's become fashionable among privileged white youngsters (and some it appears who never grow up) to appropriate these gang signs. It is a ghastly, gormless phenomena that this "Jorm" guy is contributing to.

Spot on.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:07 pm

Vigilant wrote: The fact that the developers are driving the delivery is so utterly wrong it's hard to describe.

Are you nuts? Look at this quality roadmap. Doesn't that inspire every confidence?

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:14 pm

Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote: The fact that the developers are driving the delivery is so utterly wrong it's hard to describe.
Are you nuts? Look at this quality roadmap. Doesn't that inspire every confidence?

Quality lead
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Cmcmahon%28WMF%29

Someone find me a resume, please?

I can't wait to see his extensive methodology background.

Edit: Changed pic size for Hex.
Edit: Agile experience...
https://www.socialtext.net/open/chris_m ... oughtworks

Right up there with ISO9000 grifter consultants.
Fuck.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:19 pm

If you must post a photo could you at least shrink it down to a more reasonable size? (Edit the "800px" in the URL.) I don't think we need huge portraits in threads.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:25 pm

DanMurphy wrote:I think the gesture he's aping is the one for "West Side" since it looks like "W." I think it first originated with West Side Crips, who've been involved in hundreds of murders down the years...

In case it's not obvious, while Jorm may be aping the "West Side" gang sign, presumably his "W" is merely standing for Wikipedia.

Here's a current WMF developer at work:

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:06 pm

I've managed to prod some more details about what's going to happen out of the developers.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:45 pm

It's very interesting that they still let Brandon Harris talk to the public.
He has a real knack for petting the cat the wrong way.

Malleus · Unread post by **Malleus** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:48 pm

Vigilant wrote:It's very interesting that they still let Brandon Harris talk to the public.
He has a real knack for petting the cat the wrong way.

Talk at the public would be more accurate.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Flow is what rivers do under bridges. Which, conveniently enough, is where trolls live; and they are going to love Flow. Because as the design stands at present, you'll never be able to completely delete anything.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:37 pm

Holy shit, this is funny stuff.

Each post is its own page. There is no unified page history. Imagine that I have a thousand subpages with names like User talk:WhatamIdoing/39582-03-20358920952. None of the are linked on a visible page, and someone has deleted a dozen entire pages, possibly without my knowledge or permission. How would you find the deleted pages? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

What!!!???!!!!???? That is terribly non-functional. There has to be a way to see all edits to the same page, otherwise the result is not a wiki, and you've broken the number 1 functionality that people depends upon since 10 years ago. The problem you mention is only the tip of the ice-berg of everything that can be wrong without a common edit history. A single history for the whole page is the mechanism that the community uses to perform all kind of supervision. You eliminate that feature, and there's no way to review what other people is doing with the content. Diego Moya (talk) 16:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

These WMF guys are a riot.
Working on projects that might nominally make things marginally better on wikipedia, but fucking them up sooooo badly that the community decides they'd rather do without.

It's kind of awe inspiring to watch.

Although, I do feel a guilty thrill. Sort of like watching Jerry Springer to feel better about yourself.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:46 pm

Vigilant wrote: These WMF guys are a riot.

I really liked the bit where I said "New System misses a feature from Old System" and got the reply "Doing that in New System would be complicated because of X Y Z, how would it work?" As I felt obliged to point out, answering that question is hardly my job, is it?

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:54 pm

Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote: These WMF guys are a riot.
I really liked the bit where I said "New System misses a feature from Old System" and got the reply "Doing that in New System would be complicated because of X Y Z, how would it work?" As I felt obliged to point out, answering that question is hardly my job, is it?

As the editor and edit count on VE drops to zero combined with a sound thrashing in the Default State RFC/de.wp and nl.wp opt-outs, these guys are going to get even more defensive.

Hopefully, they turn Oliver Keyes and Sherry Snyder loose on the community to fix things.

I wonder if there will be a WMF for Sue's replacement to take over.

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:25 pm

Vigilant wrote:I wonder if there will be a WMF for Sue's replacement to take over.

Sadly, it could last for many years, no matter how many stupid stunts they pull. Excuse my off-topic comments.

Wikipedia, and the imbeciles who run it, are Sanctified By The One True God, Whose Name Is Google.
Much worse-run nonprofits have survived for years, and they did it without the support of the world's
largest Internet company. Look at the Susan G. Komen Foundation, or "Feed The Children". Once an
outfit like this is "established" and enjoys support from other groups, it is VERY difficult to take down.

I keep saying this, and evidently I must say it again. Bitching about Wikipedia will not reform them, nor will
"whistleblowing" or even well-considered critiques. People have been trying it for 8+ years with no real success.
Direct your rage at the monster that feeds them most of their web traffic. Without Google's massive support,
Wikipedia would be just another failed free-culture wacko community.

(Need to add Feed The Children (T-H-L) to the paid-editing thread. Numerous paid editors.)

Mancunium · Unread post by **Mancunium** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:27 am

TungstenCarbide wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Download and play this pdf representation of a slideshow
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... titude.pdf

Oh for the love of god, what the hell is this guy giving lectures on how to create an encyclopedia for. What qualifications does he have for that? How many featured articles has he written? What evidence and method does he base these conclusion on? Or is he just some middle aged nobody who pulled it out of his ass?

After reading this thread I too was kinda curious about Brandon Harris, so I looked at his LinkedIn profile": link

He is not ashamed to admit that he is "a thought leader and product and design visionary".

I'm not competent to evaluate his CV; I guess it's normal in his profession to jump from one vaguely-defined job to another, working for ten consecutive employers in ten years, and so on. The high point of his career was obviously:

Sole Developer and Designer
Nexus War
December 2005 – November 2009 (4 years)
Nexus War was a browser-based, massively-multiplayer online role-playing game that I built from the ground up in java, struts, tomcat, and mysql. Over the course of its lifecycle, the game enjoyed over 20,000 players with over 100,000 unique character instances and was able support over 300 concurrent sessions (the game is only played for 5 or 10 minutes at a time, due to its "action point" economy, so the number of concurrent users was low).

Besides Nexus War, the Wikimedia Foundation is the only organization that has wanted around for any significant length of time.

His executive summary states:

I have been designing and implementing systems for twenty years. I am not someone who fucks around.

I find this refreshing; you know, when compared to the many LinkIn profiles in which the subjects mention that they do, in fact, fuck around.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:42 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Vigilant wrote:I wonder if there will be a WMF for Sue's replacement to take over.
Sadly, it could last for many years, no matter how many stupid stunts they pull. Excuse my off-topic comments.

Wikipedia, and the imbeciles who run it, are Sanctified By The One True God, Whose Name Is Google.
Much worse-run nonprofits have survived for years, and they did it without the support of the world's
largest Internet company. Look at the Susan G. Komen Foundation, or "Feed The Children". Once an
outfit like this is "established" and enjoys support from other groups, it is VERY difficult to take down.

I keep saying this, and evidently I must say it again. Bitching about Wikipedia will not reform them, nor will
"whistleblowing" or even well-considered critiques. People have been trying it for 8+ years with no real success.
Direct your rage at the monster that feeds them most of their web traffic. Without Google's massive support,
Wikipedia would be just another failed free-culture wacko community.

(Need to add Feed The Children (T-H-L) to the paid-editing thread. Numerous paid editors.)

Yes. Google feeds the beast. That is the issue, I agree.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:11 am

Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY

Throwing a big index finger + thumb "L" in the forehead would seem to be acceptable here. Please do not overgeneralize.

RfB

Cedric · Unread post by **Cedric** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:40 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Hex wrote:
Vigilant wrote:A handy guide for IDing WMF devs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Posse.png

Thanks Jorm!
There is so much wrong with that image. So much.

ENOUGH WITH THE THROWING GANG SIGNS ALREADY
Throwing a big index finger + thumb "L" in the forehead would seem to be acceptable here. Please do not overgeneralize.

RfB

Zing!

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:37 am

Malleus wrote:
Vigilant wrote:It's very interesting that they still let Brandon Harris talk to the public.
He has a real knack for petting the cat the wrong way.
Talk at the public would be more accurate.

And it continues.