The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Lukeno94 · Unread post by **Lukeno94** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:30 pm

Someone briefly broke the gadgets, meaning that VisualEditor was re-enabled for everyone for an hour or so. They seem to be working again.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:59 pm

More goodness from the gift that keeps on giving

Without TemplateData

Hello, dear colleagues!

Add the parameters form template to see all the options. For example, you can add a button to "All parameters", then he is not with regards to TemplateData, or not come to all the template parameters (in brackets {{{}}}). I still need to add the ability to edit the template TemplateData, once in this form with the words: "This parameter has no description ',' This template has no description ',' This parameter is not specified "required", "Please, add them", ... . --Xusinboy Bekchanov (talk) 04:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC).

Who needs template editing?

I want to go back to the old way, please. I don't see this option in my account settings (under "editing"). Startswithj (talk) 05:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

@Startswithj: See the FAQ box at the top of this page, just above the table of contents. Ignatzmice•talk 05:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Maggie and the WMF crew have just spent half of their working week politely explaining to the world and his neighbour how you disable this beta test. I think that is proof enough that this is a priority bug- disabling needs to prominent and obvious. There are two places that are intuitive and impossible to miss.

On the top-bar of the visual editor next to the help icon, just add a further icon in red with the word 'Disable', Hover would display the message 'Thank you for taking part in this beta-test, to disabling the visual Editor will take you back to the Classic Editor' or just 'get me out of here!"
Change the Edit|Edit source into Edit|Classic editor|Remove visual editor. I don't think anyone would need further help on that one

I have posted this not because I need a recursive reply- but so you can pass the comment directly to the dev team for immediate implementation.
If you are not at the London or Oxford Wikimeet- you are all most welcome to come and share a bottle of wine with me beyond wifi range in the garden. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 08:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

There is actually a proper off switch for VE. It was chosen to disable the off switch for en:wp, and instead have a half-hidden option that the VE breaks every now and then. Enabling the off switch is apparently an "enhancement". The patch is awaiting deployment. Anyone from WMF have an idea if/when this change will go through? - David Gerard (talk) 08:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Editor retention, ftw. Are we over 5% of total edits with the VisualEnema?
Even David Gerard is getting into the act...

Page won't save

I've spent 3 hours editing a page and adding citations but now it wont save saying: Error: invalid error code. So disheartening. Makes me not want to bother spending so much time trying to improving things... Fieldstones (talk) 07:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh ... You wanted to SAVE your work? Oh no, that's next week's project. Hello? Hello?
Also, editor retention win.

VE deletes syntax from an incomplete table

At User:Thryduulf/Hierarchy of content decisions I have an incomplete table (it's part of an unfinished user essay) with the table opened, some headers and rows defined but no closing syntax.

When making an unrelated edit, VE deleted all the table syntax apart from the the opening line [3] e.g. changing !Level!!Process!!Appeal process!!Notes to LevelProcessAppeal processNotes.

I know VE doesn't deal with tables properly yet, and this is an unusual use case, but there is no reason for it to be deleting syntax. As in the example above deleting the exclamation marks (and pipes on other rows) doesn't even result in cleaned up plain text (replacing them with space instead might do). Thryduulf (talk) 08:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

VisualEnema did not approve of your edits, simpleton!

Error: Invalid error code

Attempted to make this fairly simple edit, the VE spent ages trying to save and came back with "Error: Invalid error code". I pressed the second "save" button again, it came back with the same. Gave up and did it in wikitext - David Gerard (talk) 09:06, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Editor (for low values of useful editor) retention win.
Actually, devs, if you could make David Gerard leave wikipedia forever with this project, I'd be willing to call it a net positive.

How did it go to Vedit mode?

After saving an V-edit on Shiva, I saved the page. From contents, I clicked on a section. Instead of going to the section, it went in Vedit mode. --Redtigerxyz Talk 09:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

VisualEnema wants to be free. I can see the constant, invisible popups that ask, "Would you like to make VisualEnema your default editor?" Naturally, the YES box is selected.

Option to use normal editing

Hi. I don't see an option to go back to normal editing mode. I just want to make a quick change and prefer not to deal with a visual/WYSIWYG-ish mode. An option to use the "bare-metal" original syntax would be nice. My original edit would take 30-45 seconds this way. That's a good thing. It is a wiki, after all. Wantnot (talk) 10:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeeesssss, the users WANT this VisualEnema... Feel the hate. Take up your editor and strike them down and take your place at my side as your father before you...
VisualEnema is the path to the dark side. VisualEnema leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to wikipediocracy.

Your java is buggy

You already know this, but I'll repeat this every few days until you fix it: get the opt-out out of "gadgets" and make turning on VE involve javascript. Being off should involve nothing. Right now, your code is repeatedly turning on VE despite very very very clear instructions in my preferences for it to go bugger off. — LlywelynII 11:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Another piece of the puzzle that the devs just don't understand.

It's volunteer-written JS, not staff-written JS. I'm investigating the problem with it now, having just noticed myself. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 12:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Perfect.

Problem identified. It's nothing to do with the javascript being buggy; parsoid is DoSing the API cluster, which has implications for gadgets functioning. Mark Bergsma is looking into it now. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 12:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, you were wrong. No surprise there.

Unfortunately, we are having problems with the servers right now that are being worked on. These may affect the performance of any and all gadgets (and non-gadgets) and is not directly related to VisualEditor. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you never heard of a test server where you run your regressions prior to releasing code?

Visual Editor exhumes itself and forces itself on me

Moments ago, while I was editing an article using the editing tool that works properly, the properly-disabled mess misnamed Visual Editor restored itself as my default editing tool. It seems to have been returned to its well-deserved grave after I resaved my "gadget" preferences, but why should any editor have to watch out for this dysfunction to recur? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
This also happened to me this morning. I do not like the Visual Editor for adding or changing categories but prefer to use "HotCat". I used HotCat to update several articles and then that option disappeared and VE was back. I have changed my preferences in the Gadgets tab several times (which I would never have found except for a mention in a previous feedback talk), but VE keeps coming back and HotCat is still not available. VE takes MUCH longer to edit categories compared to HotCat. Jllm06 (talk) 13:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
See two sections above this one. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It just did it again. Waist Deep in the Big Muddy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we are having problems with the servers right now that are being worked on. These may affect the performance of any and all gadgets (and non-gadgets) and is not directly related to VisualEditor. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
And when "Gadgets" came back, "Remove VisualEditor from the user interface" had been unchecked"! That's certainly a VE-specific error. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It's not a VE-specific error unless VE is causing the problem. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
So if the lousy kludge that supposedly turns off VE doesn't work, that's not a VE-specific error? What next,will you argue about what the meaning of "is" is? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
The argument is about the meaning of "specific". If all gadgets are affected by the same error then the error isn't specific to one of the gadgets. An analogy: If your city loses power and your toaster stops running then the power loss isn't a toaster-specific problem. It can still be annoying if you wanted toast. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
And when the only one of my "gadgets" whose marking is changed is the one that relates to VE, that isn't VE-specific? You folks are really in denial. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
If its needed again the following css can hide the visual editor.

div#p-views > ul > li#ca-edit:not(.istalk):nth-last-child(4) { display: none; }
.mw-editsection-link-primary { display: none; }
.mw-editsection-link-secondary { visibility: visible !important; content: "source"; }
.mw-editsection-bracket { visibility: hidden !important; }

It's supplied with no warranty, expect it to mess up on some namespaces and hide normal edit links as well, kill section 0 edit links. It may also break if you have any custom css js or gadgets or if any software changes.--Salix (talk): 17:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You're using it wrong and it's not the VisualEnema's fault!
P.S. Here's a hacky bit of javascript to get rid of the VisualEnema. First one's free, after that I gotta charge you.
What does it say about the dev team that users are trading actual code to try to disable the editor???
How can anyone say that this is not the worst software release, EVAR?

Won't let me copy

This new system won't let me copy from one edit to another Jørgen88 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

That's our new feature to prevent plagiarism. Good day, citizen!

Worst thing I've ever seen

Why would you change Wikipedia like this? Do you think that users are going to bother trying to learn a whole new system of editing. This is clunky and I don't understand it. I will stop editing this site if this is not changed. Kuzwa (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Driving away editors, contrary to the stated aims of the WMF's master plan.
*cue Mr Burns, "Exxxccceeeellllent" *

Citation system unclear

There are now two sets of apparent endnotes in this article, created by different forms in the WYSIWYG editor. Please update the help to make it clear whether to use Transclusion for citations. Thank you. Mragsdale (talk) 16:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

No citations for you!!

If you chuckleheads had followed engineering best practices, you wouldn't be in this shit swamp.
But then, why let the code's immaturity and lack of testing get in the way of the July 2013 release plans?

I know what the WMF are saying to each other right now...

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:22 pm

It's pretty encouraging when a page detailing the next major system change to arrive (SUL2, this Monday) is seeing reverts described as "bad VE edit".

Oh, and if you think this has kicked up a stink so far, wait until people find out that Flow, the new message system, will require VisualEditor and not allow the use of wiki text. I confidently predict a large number of people choosing to allocate subpages in their user space as talk pages instead of using Flow.

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:01 pm

Right on cue, it begins.

Adam Cuerden wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =564282164

What. The. Fuck.

Was anyone consulted on this? What if you want to quote text from the article on the talk page? Or wanted to use templates?

Not to mention how many bots will need recoded. Goodbye auto-archiving bots. Goodbye the bot that handles Good article promotions.

Goodbye to this noticeboard having the same format used for discussions elsewhere.

Is the WMF insane? Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

From the link:

Brandon Harris wrote: You should strive to achieve Zen acceptance that the only editor for Flow will be the VisualEditor. If, by the time Flow is released, the VisualEditor supports a native code editor, it will likely be there. But nothing is promised - nor can it be.

Jorm (WMF) (talk)‎ 22:24, 13 July 2013

Where do they find these people?

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:32 pm

Hex wrote:Right on cue, it begins.
Adam Cuerden wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =564282164

What. The. Fuck.

Was anyone consulted on this? What if you want to quote text from the article on the talk page? Or wanted to use templates?

Not to mention how many bots will need recoded. Goodbye auto-archiving bots. Goodbye the bot that handles Good article promotions.

Goodbye to this noticeboard having the same format used for discussions elsewhere.

Is the WMF insane? Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
From the link:
Brandon Harris wrote: You should strive to achieve Zen acceptance that the only editor for Flow will be the VisualEditor. If, by the time Flow is released, the VisualEditor supports a native code editor, it will likely be there. But nothing is promised - nor can it be.

Jorm (WMF) (talk)‎ 22:24, 13 July 2013
Where do they find these people?

Where I work, they call them 'latte-carrying codemungers' and usually we ask the company to take them back and give us something more useful, like a brand logo LED flashlight/LASER pointer.

Those things are great if you have a cat.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:06 am

I don't know who it was. Machiavelli. Or Sun Tsu... or maybe Dr. Evil. But somebody said summat like "When you enemy is in the midst of making a great error don't stop them."

(And for those playing along at home:

Dr. Evil (T-H-L) is 28,000 bytes.
Sun Tzu (T-H-L) is 22,000 bytes.
And Machiavelli (T-H-L) is 76,000 bytes.

Drink!)

The Adversary · Unread post by **The Adversary** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:59 am

DanMurphy wrote:I don't know who it was. Machiavelli. Or Sun Tsu... or maybe Dr. Evil. But somebody said summat like "When you enemy is in the midst of making a great error don't stop them."

(And for those playing along at home:

Dr. Evil (T-H-L) is 28,000 bytes.
Sun Tzu (T-H-L) is 22,000 bytes.
And Machiavelli (T-H-L) is 76,000 bytes.

Drink!)

Napoleon Bonaparte quote
And Napoleon (T-H-L) is 133,418 bytes

mac · Unread post by **mac** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:49 am

Bwilkins (T-C-L) has a nasty streak:

{{hat|1=Tech/Policy whinging - not an admin issue}}

Why be mean about it? It seems like a valid concern, not "whinging".

SB_Johnny · Unread post by **SB_Johnny** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:55 am

Ya know, this theory that VE's real purpose is to scare away the current "communiteh" might have some legs.

Wer900 · Unread post by **Wer900** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:09 am

Zoloft wrote:
Hex wrote:Right on cue, it begins.
Adam Cuerden wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =564282164

What. The. Fuck.

Was anyone consulted on this? What if you want to quote text from the article on the talk page? Or wanted to use templates?

Not to mention how many bots will need recoded. Goodbye auto-archiving bots. Goodbye the bot that handles Good article promotions.

Goodbye to this noticeboard having the same format used for discussions elsewhere.

Is the WMF insane? Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
From the link:
Brandon Harris wrote: You should strive to achieve Zen acceptance that the only editor for Flow will be the VisualEditor. If, by the time Flow is released, the VisualEditor supports a native code editor, it will likely be there. But nothing is promised - nor can it be.

Jorm (WMF) (talk)‎ 22:24, 13 July 2013
Where do they find these people?
Where I work, they call them 'latte-carrying codemungers' and usually we ask the company to take them back and give us something more useful, like a brand logo LED flashlight/LASER pointer.

Those things are great if you have a cat.

Unread post by **tarantino** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:16 am

mac wrote:Bwilkins (T-C-L) has a nasty streak:
{{hat|1=Tech/Policy whinging - not an admin issue}}
Why be mean about it? It seems like a valid concern, not "whinging".

Did you know ... that Bwilkins has published an autobiography on wikipedia, and his surname isn't Wilkins?

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:49 am

Unbelievable.

I am speechless at Jorm's and, by extension, the dev team's arrogance.

AAAAAHHHHHHH, things become clearer.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Jorm_%28WMF%29

Another douchebag extraordinaire.
"This long hair and these tattoos stand in for experience and professional success."

Wer900 · Unread post by **Wer900** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:20 am

tarantino wrote:
mac wrote:Bwilkins (T-C-L) has a nasty streak:
{{hat|1=Tech/Policy whinging - not an admin issue}}
Why be mean about it? It seems like a valid concern, not "whinging".
Did you know ... that Bwilkins has published an autobiography on wikipedia, and his surname isn't Wilkins?

What is his name? Oh shit, we're going to out one of the feudal lords leading Teh Communitah™! Everybody start the bannination machine!

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:30 am

With the new information coming out that the VisualEnema is getting herder to avoid, I'm seeing people telling other users to just use Internet Explorer to force direct access to the text editor.

I'd go a step further and choose a browser that will never be supported.

http://lynx.browser.org/ or some other text based browser.

You *KNOW* it's fucked up when people with change *TO* IE in order to circumvent VE.

VE, the new VD.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:36 am

Once again, dear readers, it's time for the "VisualEnema fucks everyone in the ass hour"

What the hell

I go away for a month and I no longer know how to edit!? J04n(talk page) 00:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Sucks to be you, you suppressive person.

Insert icons stop working

(1) Click the "transclusion" icon

(2) In the lower left of the resulting dialog box, hover over the "+" sign until the bracket pair ("[ ]") is visible; click on that.

(3) Click on "[ ] Content"

(4) Click on "Apply changes"

Now none of the "insert" icons work, and a number of other icons on the tool bar also don't work. (The user guide is silent as to what these brackets are supposed to do.) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 01:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Icons are for the weak. Next.

Issues with the template dialog process

The process of adding information (parameters) to a template, in the dialog box (popup window) has a number of issues that make editing significantly more confusing:

Templates are for the weak. Next.

Allow wikicodes to work instead of assuming nowiki

Let be honest, it's pretty rare that the nowiki tags are used. The Visual Editor should allow the contributor to use wikicodes. In my opinion, the more simple would to have a tick box where one can tick it on or off if he wants the Visual Editor to assume "nowiki" for its contributions or to allow wikicodes (i.e. mainly [[ ]] or {{ }}) to work for its contributions. Thanks, Amqui (talk) 03:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikicodes are for the weak. Next.

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:50 am

Vigilant wrote:With the new information coming out that the VisualEnema is getting herder to avoid, I'm seeing people telling other users to just use Internet Explorer to force direct access to the text editor.

I'd go a step further and choose a browser that will never be supported.

http://lynx.browser.org/ or some other text based browser.

You *KNOW* it's fucked up when people with change *TO* IE in order to circumvent VE.

VE, the new VD.

VisualEditor
the latest
Software Technology Development
from the
WMF

We need to make this one of the T-Shirts in our non-existent gift shop.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:52 am

Zoloft wrote:
Vigilant wrote:With the new information coming out that the VisualEnema is getting herder to avoid, I'm seeing people telling other users to just use Internet Explorer to force direct access to the text editor.

I'd go a step further and choose a browser that will never be supported.

http://lynx.browser.org/ or some other text based browser.

You *KNOW* it's fucked up when people with change *TO* IE in order to circumvent VE.

VE, the new VD.

VisualEditor
the latest
Software Technology Development
from the
WMF

Nice.

We should do a series of these.
UTI == User Text Interface

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:01 am

Wer900 wrote:What is his name? Oh shit, we're going to out one of the feudal lords leading Teh Communitah™!

Well, if he's this guy (AfD of the original article here), then he isn't doing a very good job of hiding it.

And I would certainly agree that someone who's trying to get an article like that into Wikipedia should not be accusing other users of "whinging" for any reason whatsoever, and definitely not for a reason as valid as this one.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:03 am

This makes me wonder.

If the VD is this badly broken and they're relying on users with no experience in testing to find bugs, how many zero day problems could a dedicated software engineer find and preserve?

Using these exploits, how many articles could you utterly fuck up with a broken VD under the disguise of, "But, I was just editing and ... and ... the VE did it." ?

I think this could be a *BUNCH* of fun in the future.

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:46 am

Midsize Jake wrote:Well, if he's this guy (AfD of the original article here), then he isn't doing a very good job of hiding it.

And I would certainly agree that someone who's trying to get an article like that into Wikipedia should not be accusing other users of "whinging" for any reason whatsoever, and definitely not for a reason as valid as this one.

You are correct. Few things show the utter stupidity of Wikipedia insiders, better than that AFD.
And even four years after it, they apparently still haven't gotten the hint. Mr. Palmer continues to get
away with virtual murder on Wikipedia, daily.

(Did I mention that he may have lost his job with the Canadian Department of National Defence in 2011,
because of his obsessive editing of Wikipedia? I'll let you find his LinkedIn.)

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:23 am

Just for posteriority: link

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:06 am

You know, the VD was such a huge fucking hit with the guys, let's build it into a new talk page project and force that diseased cock down everyone's throats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... rible_idea.

The Wikimedia Foundation's announcement that VisualEditor will be the only way to edit talk pages in the future is a terrible, terrible idea.
“ "You should strive to achieve Zen acceptance that the only editor for Flow will be the VisualEditor. If, by the time Flow is released, the VisualEditor supports a native code editor, it will likely be there. But nothing is promised - nor can it be." - Jorn (WMF) ”

This is completely unacceptable, and violates even the promises made at launch. Even the FAQ for VisualEditor has been changed on account of this.

Bots cannot edit VisualEditor. The things this will kill functionalities of include:

Good articles - the easy promotion of good articles is dependant on bots being able to edit talk pages. Should this functionality disappear, we're screwed.
Discussion of specific article text: How is one expected to copy-paste from the VisualEditor? Is that even a thing?
Usage by the visually challenged. Has the WMF even thought about making the VisualEditor work well with screenreaders?

Jorm went on to add "It is entirely possible that the data for each post will not be saved as wikitext because there are considerable performance issues that arise when doing so. If this is the case, things like templates will simply be unable to be supported." and "I would dearly love to kill off Wikitext."

Is Jorm acting in a rogue manner? Possibly. Nonetheless, the (WMF) after his name means that his statements should be taken with all due alarm.

Update

Jorm has answered some questions here.

Downsides: When asked if various talk page tmeplates will break, including FA, GA, Wikiproject, etc. his response was, "Flow will not prevent those from breaking. Flow will provide different, better ways of managing these workflows. That is what this project is about entirely." He also says it's "not likely" that communities will get to decide whether or not Flow is turned on for them. Which means they learned nothing.

That's not very reassuring. However, many of his other responses are somewhat reassuring, though... questionable whether he's thought them through, perhaps: He claims Flow will be opt-in, for instance, though how that'll work if it doesn't support Wikimarkup, he claims copy-paste will be fine, when you can't copy-paste in VE without losing all markup, up to and including carriage returns, he claims that giving notice for people to convert will solve all problems, he claims there will be a method to turn off flow on collaborative pages, such as drafts but given all the things we were promised for VE that didn't happen... Adam Cuerden (talk) 01:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Support (talk)

Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It's not just insane, it is a slap in the face to the many editors of Wikipedia who are not interested in the VisualEditor. Rolling out a a buggy, bad beta version of a new editing system is one thing, but making that same version mandatory for talk pages shows that the WMF does not care what established editors think, and is not really interested in their opinions or the time and hard work they spent on talk page bots - which will presumably become useless if VE is required on talk pages. Toa Nidhiki05 23:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
There needs to be some people getting fired over this, starting with Jorn (WMF). This is entirely unacceptable. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 23:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I dislike the tone of the heading, but support the underlying message: disabling VE should disable VE, and it's not acceptable to block editors that aren't using VE for discussion.—Kww(talk) 00:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Support conditionally striking the word "insane" and substituting "not the right move" (hey, just trying to be WP:CIVIL). It's a bad idea to go that direction. Unless, of course, the goal of the foundation is to anger experienced editors so much that they leave and never come back.--Paul McDonald (talk) 00:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Very well. Changed the header. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Support, since Brandon seems totally unteachable regarding the issue. If we have learned one thing from the VE deployment, then that it will never ever be able to completely replace a Wikitext editor. Therefore denying the need for a markup editor for Flow is just ridiculous. --Patrick87 (talk) 00:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
This is nonsense, and it's getting in the way of the goal of building an encyclopedia. Something needs to change at the foundation if it believes this kind of behavior is acceptable. Everyking (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
No. Reaper Eternal (talk) 01:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
VE's deployment reminds me of New Coke. Replace a tried-and-true formula with a new one that its developers are convinced with be better than the original formula, but turns to be much worse. If VE is to be permanently part of Wikipedia, keep source editing so bots still function correctly and editing are not forced into using VE. Wikipedia is about consensus, not coercion. SMP0328. (talk) 01:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:11 am

Polish wikipedia getting infected with VD on July 29. No documentation in Polish done.
LMFAO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... sualEditor

VisualEditor

Hi Piotrus,

I know you've been offwiki for a couple of days, but I'm hoping to catch you when you're back, and also to find any other Polish speakers who happen to be watching this page. WP:VisualEditor is probably going to be turned on for the Polish Wikipedia on 29 July 2013, which is three weeks from today. There is about four sentences of information about the software change at pl:Wikipedia:VisualEditor. About 20 editors there have tried to use it. I'm worried that the appearance of the new editing system will be confusing and frustrating for them, especially if there are no help pages on the Polish Wikipedia.

On the other hand, there are partly completed translations at Mediawiki: mw:Help:VisualEditor/User_guide/pl, mw:VisualEditor/Portal/pl, and mw:Help:VisualEditor/FAQ/pl. These need to be finished, checked, and copied to the Polish Wikipedia. Do you have an interest in helping with the translation? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure it will all be fine.
As George W. Bush said, "Don't forget about Poland!"

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:24 am

Well Brandon aka Jorm, you got the moron IP seal of approval vote locked up.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_tal ... and_thanks

Just wanted to offer some encouragement and thanks

Hi Brandon. I see once again that the villagers have ammassed with their pitchforks and flaming torches. You seem to be getting hit pretty heavily and I am truly sorry that the community can't see all the good you have done over the years. It's tough being a developer and it can be draining working for the foundation. Doing both AND being the focus of an angry mob is certainly more than I could handle. I must say you are doing an excellent job and I want to thank you for you tact and responsiveness under these demanding conditions. I'm sure it's a heavy workload and so I wanted to give you some encouragement to keep going. There are millions of people that not only appreciate Wikipedia but they rely on it. These people appreciate the work you've done, but unfortunately you don't get to hear directly from them. You only hear from the 50 or so that are all worked up and so your feedback is skewed towards the negative. I want to try and help with that by letting you know how much I appreciate your efforts. You have a vision of how things can be and you're working towards that goal, improving the WMF project so that more people can become involved. This is an important and honorable achievemnt. Thousands of years from now, historians will look back at the early days of Wikipedia to determine how things were made sucessful and they will see ther work that you've done. You have a legacy to be proud of and that's not something many people have. So I would like to encourage you to keep the faith and persevere. The work you are doing is important and I appreciate your efforts. Kind regards. 64.40.54.201 05:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure that will be a great comfort during your next performance review and/or interview.

P.S. Contrary to your self image about being made of steel wool and whiskey, you look to the outside world of normals like a giant sized hipster douche. Thought you should know.

lilburne · Unread post by **lilburne** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:51 am

Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*

Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am

lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*
Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.

The answer is not what the WMF is doing now, either.
You can't take a fundamentally flawed product, like the VD, and force everyone to use it on talk pages.
Given the community's antipathy to VD, I don't have the faintest fucking clue what the WMF is going to do next.

I can give them two pieces of advice:
1) sequester Brandon Harris aka Jorm in his little corner and tell him to shut his fucking yap. He's only making things worse with his arrogance and obvious disdain for the existing editors.
2) Call a timeout on your stupidly aggressive schedule and rethink this product rollout for a month. You guys are so, so, so far behind the eight ball that there's no way that you can force this issue at this point.

They're on the horns of a dilemma and their anal adherence to an out of date schedule is decidedly not helping.

They won't take my advice.
They're gonna bull ahead and start the biggest civil war that wikipedia has ever seen.
It's going to be epic.

dogbiscuit · Unread post by **dogbiscuit** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:15 am

I'd agree that the string and sealing wax stuff sensibly should go for a long term plan of maintainability.

However, the big problem is likely to be that the WMF have no idea what the users of the system are trying to do with all these templates, so their replacement system is quite likely not going to be of any use whatsoever. Still it's got a nice jargony name so what could go wrong?

I think the fundamental is that they've seen how Facebook forced changes down the throats of the users, but they don't see the differences: Facebook had a strong vision and drivers on what their changes were intended to achieve, plus they relied on a user community who had invested, and finally the interface was not that important.

By putting in Flow, it seems that they are saying that they understand the work processes and can envision how things can be done in the future. Quite simply, I don't believe it.

VE of course is a very sensible thing, but slowly the fail level of fundamental features that are simply missing is growing. I am amazed that they missed cut and paste - anyone who has worked with editors will be well aware of the horrors of dealing with clipboards and trying to offer up the right choice of paste (didn't "Paste Special" in trigger any realisation?). Paste in Thunderbird reminds me of the problem every day.

lilburne · Unread post by **lilburne** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:25 am

Vigilant wrote:
lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*
Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.
The answer is not what the WMF is doing now, either.
You can't take a fundamentally flawed product, like the VD, and force everyone to use it on talk pages.
Given the community's antipathy to VD, I don't have the faintest fucking clue what the WMF is going to do next.

I can give them two pieces of advice:
1) sequester Brandon Harris aka Jorm in his little corner and tell him to shut his fucking yap. He's only making things worse with his arrogance and obvious disdain for the existing editors.
2) Call a timeout on your stupidly aggressive schedule and rethink this product rollout for a month. You guys are so, so, so far behind the eight ball that there's no way that you can force this issue at this point.

They're on the horns of a dilemma and their anal adherence to an out of date schedule is decidedly not helping.

They won't take my advice.
They're gonna bull ahead and start the biggest civil war that wikipedia has ever seen.
It's going to be epic.

I'm pretty hard arsed about this and my reaction to stuff that is a maintenance nightmare or has outlived its usefulness is to check whether we have made any promises not to break 3rd party applications (we usually aren't that daft), and if not replace it. OK I'll try to keep the 3rd party stuff working, but I'm not going to halt development or not reorganise the command structure, and if it breaks then tough. Particularly with behavioural changes I'd rather break 3rd party apps then give them the impression that nothing has changed.

eppur si muove · Unread post by **eppur si muove** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:17 am

I've seen compatibility issues both as a developer and a user. When I worked for IBM on CICS Restructure, there was a clear need to keep all the existing customer applications that used the macro interface to the existing spaghetti going. (It's a bit hard to write Assembler in anything other than spaghetti.) However there was a need for having more maintainable code in a higher level language and with a properly specified interface. The result was a compatibility layer to support the old stuff and encouraging customers to write any new apps using the new interface. I don't know whether IBM eventually dumped the macro interface but it clearly would be suicide for the project if they did so immediately the new interface appeared.

More recently I have been a customer of the various owners of Cix (no relation of its homophone). They again have chosen to implement a compatibility layer in order to keep paying customers happy while replacing their underlying spaghetti with more streamlined stuff.

Wikimedia may not have customers who pay in cash but the members of the communitah do pay in time and services. Alienating them while providing no compatibility to the old talk page stuff would be extremely foolish especially as the rationale behind VE is that they need to arrest the decline in the number of editors. A fair chunk of the current communitah would probably be irrationally stubborn even if presented with a well-designed and functional product. From the various screams I hear, I get the impression that VE is not functional. The level of errors suggest that it is probably not well-designed either.

lilburne · Unread post by **lilburne** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:11 pm

An earlier CAD/CAM system of ours become ossified due to promises NOT to change the command language. As development proceeded it became harder and harder to change anything and remain backwards compatibility. By the mid 1990s the product was split into a CAD system and a CAM system, and it was retired in 2000. I've never made any commitment not to change the macro language, and indeed did so on a number of occasions from 1999-2007 as old concepts were swept away and replaced with new ones. Now I think we are passed all of that. We've put in place systems which if used are mostly immune from macro language changes. Whilst I don't foresee any language overhauls in the near future, if moving the product forward means that parts of the command language have to change, then I'll change it.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:20 pm

EricBarbour wrote:
Midsize Jake wrote:Well, if he's this guy (AfD of the original article here), then he isn't doing a very good job of hiding it.

And I would certainly agree that someone who's trying to get an article like that into Wikipedia should not be accusing other users of "whinging" for any reason whatsoever, and definitely not for a reason as valid as this one.
You are correct. Few things show the utter stupidity of Wikipedia insiders, better than that AFD.
And even four years after it, they apparently still haven't gotten the hint. Mr. Palmer continues to get
away with virtual murder on Wikipedia, daily.

(Did I mention that he may have lost his job with the Canadian Department of National Defence in 2011,
because of his obsessive editing of Wikipedia? I'll let you find his LinkedIn.)

In the original AFD, "Bwilkins" claims that he is not John R. Palmer (If you've got him dead to rights on his identity it's the bald-faced lying that's most interesting):

Keep. (original editor) This is an article that I first started ages ago, and yes became a bit of a pet project. In 2003 when Mr. Palmer actually ran for city Council against the toughest opponent in the city, I was a senior student in journalism. The City of Ottawa website (a city of almost a million people) makes numerous mentions. A simple g-search will turn up plenty of hits. I have slowly added ref's from the local papers as I can find them - unfortunately, the journalism databases do not always hold them. The Ottawa Citizen (the large city newspaper) has featured him in relation to the 2003 election, his work on Ottawa Transit. Canada's National Broadcaster, CBC also has a few hits. He actually wrote articles for the Nepean This Week newspaper. iUniverse is, according to the New York Times, not and "vanity press". A good number of wikilinks. Sure, I probably threw some cruft into the article that I was able to glean through small articles, internet searches, and *gasp* press conferences where I was able to ask questions in open forums. As Mr. Palmer sells the full rights to his songs, I was not even permitted to list the ones you might have heard on the radio on the page - this is not something I can fix easily. Before this becomes WP:TLDNR, I wanted to clarify some of the misinformation above. Many other editors have added and edited this article over the past 6 years or so. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 07:03, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:21 pm

lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*
Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.

Of course that is the underlying problem. But attracting the bedroom/basement contributor is what the entire project is based on.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:43 pm

HRIP7 wrote:
lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*
Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.
Of course that is the underlying problem. But attracting the bedroom/basement contributor is what the entire project is based on.

I am starting to get the impression that the point is, indeed, to dissolve "teh community" and elect a new one.

Moonage Daydream · Unread post by **Moonage Daydream** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:55 pm

DanMurphy wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:
lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*
Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.
Of course that is the underlying problem. But attracting the bedroom/basement contributor is what the entire project is based on.
I am starting to get the impression that the point is, indeed, to dissolve "teh community" and elect a new one.

I wouldn't put it quite that strongly but I think the WMF has decided that losing some of the old guard is just fine if it means making it easier for new editors to jump in.

Bielle · Unread post by **Bielle** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:06 pm

Moonage Daydream wrote:

I wouldn't put it quite that strongly but I think the WMF has decided that losing some of the old guard is just fine if it means making it easier for new editors to jump in.

(Emphasis mine) Isn't the point about the current mess that, infuriating the current editors all aside, it doesn't work for anyone? How will that attract new editors? I know next to nothing about programming and coding. Everything I have learned about computers, I have learned just by working with existing software. (We are many more than you might guess, those of us with no interest whatsoever in why it works, just that it works - not unlike my attitude to my television set or my car.) I've never written anything for WP because, in six years, I haven't been able to figure out references or images -or have never been interested enough to try.

In theory, then, the new VE is made just for the likes of me. I've made two edits in VE: one worked, one didn't. I don't know why the difference, and don't really care. That it didn't work is enough to steer me back to what I know does work. Cuerdon and the legions of his technical mob screeching about bots and tables and DoS are merely noise to me. What it comes down to is that the VE is turning off not just the basement coders, but also (and more important, given WMF's stated mission), those of us who know nothing about coding.

I was one of those who screeched about changes to FaceBook, and, weeks later, if not just days, I forgot all about them. Why? Because they work. Every time I do something, I get the same result, and it is the result I expect. VE has a long way to go.

mac · Unread post by **mac** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:35 pm

Vigilant wrote:Well Brandon aka Jorm, you got the moron IP seal of approval vote locked up.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_tal ... and_thanks
<snip>
I'm sure that will be a great comfort during your next performance review and/or interview.

P.S. Contrary to your self image about being made of steel wool and whiskey, you look to the outside world of normals like a giant sized hipster douche. Thought you should know.

Didn't another IP from the State of Washington offer similar support to Mr Keyes? I've hunted for it, but can't find it.

dogbiscuit wrote:I'd agree that the string and sealing wax stuff sensibly should go for a long term plan of maintainability.

Wasn't it "gaffer tape and string"?

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:13 am

And Jorm has gone silent across the wikispace...
It's like a moronic voice cried out ... and was silenced.

Wer900 · Unread post by **Wer900** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:29 am

DanMurphy wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:
lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Flow seems to be a shift from the bazaar model of development where any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature, to a cathedral model of development when its only going to be a small group of external priest with source code access who can determine how talk pages function. It seems to be missing the essential feature of being able to discuss the wikitext used in an article, give examples of its use and see how it will appear. --Salix (talk): 04:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That's some major fuckin' "editor retention" up in that motherfucka, YO!

*Vigilant has been watching The Wire again*
Isn't 'any editor on this wiki could develop a template for a specific feature' the fucking problem. All those bedroom and basement programers have constructed a system out of string and sealing wax, which defies any sane software engineering application other that tearing the whole thing down. That the arsehole bedroom programers were allowed to do this in the first place is the WMF fault, but never the less allowing the malaise to continue isn't a solution.
Of course that is the underlying problem. But attracting the bedroom/basement contributor is what the entire project is based on.
I am starting to get the impression that the point is, indeed, to dissolve "teh community" and elect a new one.

I would certainly hope that would be the case, but if VE becomes the sole editor for content contribution I'm taking a walk.

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:44 am

Vigilant wrote:And Jorm has gone silent across the wikispace...
It's like a moronic voice cried out ... and was silenced.

I wouldn't put it quite that strongly but I think the WMF has decided that losing some of the old guard is just fine if it means making it easier for new editors to jump in.

Since they've been chasing people away for years, and I don't see any new "hardcore editors" showing up to replace the ones
who are quitting, perhaps the VE will be the final nail in Wikipedia's coffin. But it will still take additional years to see the results.

If we see a large number of admins and gnomes quit, and start a fork of Wikipedia, and manage to generate enough word of mouth,
I would take that as the best proof of Wikipedia's impending demise. Every previous competing project was a massive failure,
because it was too restrictive or not "famous" enough. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, especially if the WMF is hell-bound
to chase away its own addicts.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:43 am

VisualEnema and AuntFlo...

Wer900 · Unread post by **Wer900** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:33 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Vigilant wrote:And Jorm has gone silent across the wikispace...
It's like a moronic voice cried out ... and was silenced.

I wouldn't put it quite that strongly but I think the WMF has decided that losing some of the old guard is just fine if it means making it easier for new editors to jump in.
Since they've been chasing people away for years, and I don't see any new "hardcore editors" showing up to replace the ones
who are quitting, perhaps the VE will be the final nail in Wikipedia's coffin. But it will still take additional years to see the results.

If we see a large number of admins and gnomes quit, and start a fork of Wikipedia, and manage to generate enough word of mouth,
I would take that as the best proof of Wikipedia's impending demise. Every previous competing project was a massive failure,
because it was too restrictive or not "famous" enough. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, especially if the WMF is hell-bound
to chase away its own addicts.

Admins we generally do not need. Thin the bureaucracy and organize it, turning a gigantic, decentralized amoeba into a coherently acting multicellular organism. Start with all of the "inactive" admins.

Unread post by **tarantino** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:41 am

DanMurphy wrote: In the original AFD, "Bwilkins" claims that he is not John R. Palmer (If you've got him dead to rights on his identity it's the bald-faced lying that's most interesting):

He is caught dead to rights, but bald-faced lying is not a sanctionable offense on wikipedia.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:42 am

tarantino wrote:
DanMurphy wrote: In the original AFD, "Bwilkins" claims that he is not John R. Palmer (If you've got him dead to rights on his identity it's the bald-faced lying that's most interesting):
He is caught dead to rights, but bald-faced lying is not a sanctionable offense on wikipedia.

Yeah, it's par for the course there. Another reason it's such a cesspool.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:05 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... R_disaster

Looks like the WMF vultures are circling around poor Adam.

I've gone through the *(WMF) account edits on the VisualEnema pages and they are all following a PR script wherein they support the VE, gently admonish the editor who complained and then diminish the editor's concerns.

Nobody answers a direct question. Nobody admits fault.
Like fighting with a marshmallow.

It's so very cult like.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:17 pm

Vigilant wrote: Nobody answers a direct question. Nobody admits fault.
Like fighting with a marshmallow.

It's so very cult like.

Or just very juvenile. Realising that the measure of a man is not how he deals with success, but if he can deal with a disaster with dignity and commitment to fix his own errors, is something yet to come for these people.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:47 am

Ass beating from a supporter.
Wikipedia_talk:VisualEditor/Feedback#Time_for_an_essay (T-H-L)

Hex · Unread post by **Hex** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:02 pm

Presented uncorrected for your delectation, the latest edition of the VisualEditor newsletter.

Okeyes (WMF) wrote: Hey [username]; hope you had a decent weekend . We've got a pile of patches, some of which went out on Monday, some yesterday:

If you insert wikitext such as links or section headers, you get a notice in the top right corner (over the save button). It doesn't go away until click, though once dismissed you don't get another one that edit. (49820)

If your edit token expires, VE fetches a new one for you so you can save. (50424)

If the page is empty of content but does have something non-content (like a category or an HTML comment), VE no longer crashes on load - (50289)

sub tags are no longer removed ((49873)

If you type at the end of links, they now extend

Templates now only take a single click to insert

Clear annotations clears links (50461)

The link inspector stays open when you click to another item (50895)

Typing after multi-byte characters no longer creats pawn icons (51140)

Resizing thumbnails that have a default size set now works (50645)

References made by tag:ref now display properly (bugzilla:50978)

The VE is integrated with the spam blacklist (50826)

Feedbacl link goes to the right language (bugzilla:47730)

"Typing after multi-byte characters no longer creates pawn icons"...

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:07 pm

Should that have been 'prawn icons?' 'Cause those are delicious!

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:18 pm

Hex wrote:Presented uncorrected for your delectation, the latest edition of the VisualEditor newsletter.
Okeyes (WMF) wrote: Hey [username]; hope you had a decent weekend . We've got a pile of patches, some of which went out on Monday, some yesterday:

If you insert wikitext such as links or section headers, you get a notice in the top right corner (over the save button). It doesn't go away until click, though once dismissed you don't get another one that edit. (49820)

If your edit token expires, VE fetches a new one for you so you can save. (50424)

If the page is empty of content but does have something non-content (like a category or an HTML comment), VE no longer crashes on load - (50289)

sub tags are no longer removed ((49873)

If you type at the end of links, they now extend

Templates now only take a single click to insert

Clear annotations clears links (50461)

The link inspector stays open when you click to another item (50895)

Typing after multi-byte characters no longer creats pawn icons (51140)

Resizing thumbnails that have a default size set now works (50645)

References made by tag:ref now display properly (bugzilla:50978)

The VE is integrated with the spam blacklist (50826)

Feedbacl link goes to the right language (bugzilla:47730)

"Typing after multi-byte characters no longer creates pawn icons"...

This is what happens when you hire retards as technical writers. Seriously, it's not fucking hard - stop hiring secretaries to type out your code comments.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:51 pm

Okeyes (WMF) wrote: Hey [username]; hope you had a decent weekend . We've got a pile of patches, some of which went out on Monday, some yesterday:

This, right here, shows me that either they have no release management strategy (OMGWTFBBQ) or it's so badly broken as to effectively not exist. Not sure which way to call this.
Just throw that shit out there. No regression, no verification. Let the customers suck on this.

* If you insert wikitext such as links or section headers, you get a notice in the top right corner (over the save button). It doesn't go away until click, though once dismissed you don't get another one that edit. (49820)

A modal dialog for doing something that it's not clear is correct or incorrect. Excellent. Couldn't be less clear.
The mere fact that this is a big deal and has a fairly old bugzilla number makes me chuckle.

* If your edit token expires, VE fetches a new one for you so you can save. (50424)

If you're just going to fetch a new edit token, then why do you want an edit token that expires in the first place?

* If the page is empty of content but does have something non-content (like a category or an HTML comment), VE no longer crashes on load - (50289)

Good job. Crashing is bad, mmmkay. Does the VisualEnema actually handle this condition now or does it ignore it?
Pretty sure that Oliver Keyes neither knows nor cares.

* sub tags are no longer removed ((49873)

That's better. Removing/damaging an article when someone is editing it is not good.

* If you type at the end of links, they now extend

This is the shit they're crowing about? *sigh*

* Templates now only take a single click to insert

But they still don't work.

* Clear annotations clears links (50461)

When someone who follows the VE "experience" closely has no idea what this means...

* The link inspector stays open when you click to another item (50895)

Whoever designed the original behavior should be shown the door.

* Typing after multi-byte characters no longer creats pawn icons (51140)

What does it create?
Anyone wanna bet that this bug gets reintroduced at some point?

* Resizing thumbnails that have a default size set now works (50645)

Basic image handling issues are still bring addressed 6 months after the alpha test?
Don't worry, WMF, I'm sure you're getting your money's worth out of your engineering team.

* References made by tag:ref now display properly (bugzilla:50978)

More basic functionality that's only just now getting added.

* The VE is integrated with the spam blacklist (50826)

Priorities, right?

* Feedobacl link goes to the right language (bugzilla:47730)

That shit redlinks for spelling in every modern browser.

Oliver Keyes built and disseminated this list, personally.
When sending information to the customer base, spell check it first.
Here endeth the lesson.

What an asset.