The Visual Editor is a huge failure

We examine the less than successful stories of the Wikimedia Foundation to create and use technology. The poster boy for this forum is Visual Editor.
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Bielle
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Bielle » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:07 pm

Vigilant wrote:
...
Oliver Keyes built and disseminated this list, personally.
When sending information to the customer base, spell check it first.
Here endeth the lesson.

What an asset.
Abbreviated by me. (If this is a problem, Vigilant, I can put the whole of the text back.)

So, I don't have a clue what any of this means, yours or theirs. Before you all go off giggling and pointing, I should think there are many WP users who neither know nor care. (I mean, I am glad somebody cares, and knows enough to call the coders out, and will know when it will be right. It is just not my skill set.) All I, and those like me, want to know is "Does it work?" It would appear that the answer is still "No". It may even be a more complicated. "No" than before. If I am a newbie and I now go to WP:HELP, almost nobody can help me unless we all stay in the old system. That's pretty sad. I wonder how many will be lost just from this period.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:19 pm

Bielle wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
...
Oliver Keyes built and disseminated this list, personally.
When sending information to the customer base, spell check it first.
Here endeth the lesson.

What an asset.
Abbreviated by me. (If this is a problem, Vigilant, I can put the whole of the text back.)

So, I don't have a clue what any of this means, yours or theirs. Before you all go off giggling and pointing, I should think there are many WP users who neither know nor care. (I mean, I am glad somebody cares, and knows enough to call the coders out, and will know when it will be right. It is just not my skill set.) All I, and those like me, want to know is "Does it work?" It would appear that the answer is still "No". It may even be a more complicated. "No" than before. If I am a newbie and I now go to WP:HELP, almost nobody can help me unless we all stay in the old system. That's pretty sad. I wonder how many will be lost just from this period.
I'm fine with someone condensing my verbosity on replies.

I'll be serious for a moment, since you posited a serious concern.

It's much worse than me taking apart a list of bugs and chortling at the people behind the bugs.

They've been building this editor for a year.
They released it for alpha test six months ago.
Their own testers in that alpha said that it is not, currently, ready for deployment. They went ahead anyway.

They knew this was going to be a disaster but they chose to release it to satisfy their schedule milestones.

This is a spectacular failure of management.


Their engineering processes are badly broken.
They hire extremely poorly.
They pay poorly.
There are far too many layers of management for such a small shop.
They do not have clear lines of communication within.
They don't have a test plan.
They do not have an effective regression test environment.
They don't seem to have a working set of specs.
They do not have documentation, either internal or external facing.
They do not listen to the customers. They blame the customers.

These are just off the top of my head.
This engineering department is so very out of control.

They need to stop, regroup and restart. They won't.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:23 pm

Vigilant wrote:
* If your edit token expires, VE fetches a new one for you so you can save. (50424)
If you're just going to fetch a new edit token, then why do you want an edit token that expires in the first place?
I would presume that edit tokens are to do with conflict management. I would also presume that hacks like this end up breaking edit conflicts, either failing to track the possibility of edit conflicts, or allowing the second edit to be silently over-written.

To put it even more simply, if there is no need to maintain an edit token, it begs the question of why there is even an edit token at all.

Sounds like hacking, not designing.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:25 pm

My computing teacher would've had a fit at that hack...

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:32 pm

dogbiscuit wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
* If your edit token expires, VE fetches a new one for you so you can save. (50424)
If you're just going to fetch a new edit token, then why do you want an edit token that expires in the first place?
I would presume that edit tokens are to do with conflict management. I would also presume that hacks like this end up breaking edit conflicts, either failing to track the possibility of edit conflicts, or allowing the second edit to be silently over-written.

To put it even more simply, if there is no need to maintain an edit token, it begs the question of why there is even an edit token at all.

Sounds like hacking, not designing.
Handling edit conflicts is a solved problem.
Automerge and atomic commits are dealt with well by any version control system out there.
Many are open source.
They could have lifted a solution out of working code.

Too easy for our illustrious speds at WMF.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:59 pm

When asked on the feedback page about who was responsible for deciding whether to press ahead with the VisualEnema
If you would disable the Visual Editor until the reported bugs were fixed, someone works out a solution to this problem that actually works, there's an interface for references that the community approves of, there's a template editor that people agree upon, support tables (a pretty basic concept), and reintroduce it after it has been corrected, these problems actually would go away. The reason I get so irritated correcting things is because I know that they are being introduced for apparently the sole purpose of sticking to a schedule despite negative feedback. The only reason you think there's "no solution" is because you insist on overlooking the obvious one. I do my best to stay polite and reasonable, but the way we are continually told that so long as we aren't individually forced to use it, we have no right to complain about WMF exposing editors that know no better to a buggy tool is extremely frustrating. Having to make fixes like this and this because one of the most common edits that new editors make to pop music articles is impossible with the tools they are given does make me angry, and all you have to do is turn it off until it's fixed. That's easy. It's what should have been done weeks ago.—Kww(talk) 07:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not overlooking it, I just don't think it's pragmatic. As you say, we've got a schedule; this is not one I set, or one that I control (although I pester people abut specific bugs with some regularity). I cannot say "excellent idea, let's do that" because even excluding my personal objections to it, it's very unlikely to happen. Yes: allowing wikimarkup to be typed into the VE would solve for this problem. It would also be a substantial technical challenge for a problem that can at least be mitigated with other, smaller fixes, and that will reduce as muscle memory adapts. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Who is responsible for deciding that proceeding is the best move? There has to be an individual responsible for that decision. Who is it?—Kww(talk) 14:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

As the change management document says, James F, with ultimate reporting authority to Erik and Howie. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Oliver Keyes points us to the oh so obvious page below
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ph ... management

First I'd seen of it. Anyone else?

Note that many of the terms are made up.
Note that the terms are not consistently used across even this document.
Note that the "Volunteer Language Community Advocates" are TBD but the rollout to other language wikis is proceeding apace.
Note that the schedule is no longer being maintained.
Note that they pushed ahead with the release even though the results of the A/B test are not available, violating prerequisites.

This document is another microcosm of what is wrong with WMF's engineering group.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:07 pm

Vigilant wrote:Handling edit conflicts is a solved problem.
Over the last 8 years, I don't think I've ever experienced an edit conflict outside a dramaboard or on a talk page that was wrapped up in some sort of drama.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:09 pm

Vigilant wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... R_disaster

Looks like the WMF vultures are circling around poor Adam.

I've gone through the *(WMF) account edits on the VisualEnema pages and they are all following a PR script wherein they support the VE, gently admonish the editor who complained and then diminish the editor's concerns.

Nobody answers a direct question. Nobody admits fault.
Like fighting with a marshmallow.

It's so very cult like.
:agree:

However, marshmallows can be dangerous:
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by TungstenCarbide » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:10 pm

... As the change management document says, James F, with ultimate reporting authority to Erik and Howie. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
maybe James F should stick to running his secret irc empire.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:18 pm

Rather than all this presuming, it makes sense to go read the code. You can also see the output (patch set comments by jenkins-bot) of their integration tests, build history, etc. There's a lot to assess and little to guess.

Their development tools, like Gerrit, look pretty solid to me.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:20 pm

The daily update of fun your own values of fun may vary. some settling may have occurred in transit
"Edit reference" was vague and error prone.

Trying to edit list of references and it fails (no list). Try editing individual reference and there is no explanation of title= and HREF=. Can't hide URL. "What are the rules for references" should be accessible from the dialog. "Edit reference list" should allow easier updates. tygrus (talk) 06:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
References aren't a core feature for this product.
Quick insert panel

At the bottom of a conventional editor has a qiuckly insert bar. I would like the same with the visual editor, but more elegant. — ƒorajump, 07:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

This is apparently the issue noted at Bugzilla:38029 - see the section immediately below this one for a bit more about it. Thryduulf (talk) 15:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Translation: We're not fixing that shit -- ever.
em dash

Not sure if this belongs here but here an IP user complained that there was no possibility to add an mdash: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =564436694 and consequently s/he had to use the non-VisualEditor. Greetings --hroest 09:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks like the same complaint as just above - no apparent way to add special characters (greek, accented, em-dash, etc), to replace the drop-down menu below the edit window in Edit Source. PamD 09:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems to be the "low enhancement" bug 38029. Again, that infuriating "enhancement": it's not a "bug" because it doesn't crash anything ... but it crashes human editors by preventing them from doing an action they could do effortlessly in Edit Source. Perhaps there needs to be a further division into "desiderata" ("It would be nice if VE could ...") and "fixes" ("Fix VE so that I can do xyz which I used to be able to do in Edit Source"). Most of the enhancements suggested to date are Fixes rather than Desiderata. PamD 13:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Until something is done by VE to allow inserting special characters, on a Windows machine you can insert an en dash by holding "alt" and typing '0150' on the numeric keypad; Alt+0151 gives an em dash. Chris the speller yack 17:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You can also copy and paste from Character Map or a similar utility. Depending on your operating system you might also be able to set up dead keys. Thryduulf (talk) 17:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
This IS a modern editor you're building, right?!
Forcing someone to go out of their browser to find a special character in a separate program?!

What. The. Fuck?!
I'm chuckling at both the incompetence of the WMF engineering who, OBVIOUSLY, never edit articles and the incompetence of the WMF customer liaison who is sending them away from their product to a solution that will continually reinforce just how bad the user experience is.
This is bug 38029. This is an old bug.
15000 bugs have been reported and entered into Bugzilla since this was reported.
*sigh*
Can't follow links in templates out from article I'm editing in VE - new or reappeared problem?

Way back on 30 June I complained that I couldn't follow links from within hatnotes or refs while editing articles in VE (I'd been using ctrl + left-click) and Oliver pointed out that with right-click and menu choice they should work. I'm sure that advice worked at the time. But today I'm finding that even right-click isn't getting me anywhere useful. I may be missing something but it feels as if this is a change, that right-clicking used to work OK - eg to follow a link in a hatnote (eg the link to PLI in the hatnote while editing Pli). PamD 09:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

It does work for ordinary wikilinks and external links embedded in the text, but (to my knowledge) has never worked for templates or references. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Do you think the WMF engineering team has ever added a reference to an article?
Ever?

Another case wherein the engineering team makes the rookie mistake of assuming that they represent their user base.

I mean, some of the users have real lives and actual girlfriends and shit.
Repeated blank lines

I've added edit filter 573 to test for the addition of multiple blank lines to articles. Looking at the results from last night, this is not strictly a VE issue (many people and tools using source editor also do this), but people using VE may account for 50% or so of the cases it traps. Dragons flight (talk) 12:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Can't add rows in tables

Can't add rows to tables 94.142.172.21 (talk) 14:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

That is correct. At present you can only edit the content of existing cells in a table, full support for tables is one of the many features that the devs are working on but which don't yet exist. Sorry. Thryduulf (talk) 15:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Totally not an alpha release.
Totally.
No popups

I tend to use Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups a lot. Mainly to check that the link I'm inserting is actually the right one. I can just hover over a link a small popup window will appear with the first line of the article being linked. This allows me to readily confirm the link target is correct. Without this I feel like I'm editing blind, the link I've just inserted might be the right one but I can't confirm it until I save the article and hover over the link.

This raises two questions. 1) Could some popups like function be applied to give a better indication of where a link is pointing? 2) is there going to be any way gadget can work with VE? --Salix (talk): 14:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

This is frustrating. There is a workaround for the minute, whereby you can ctrl+click (I think it's command+click on a mac) on a link and it will open in a new window or tab (depending on your browser settings). This doesn't work for links to sections or redlinks currently (see bugzilla:51122).
In answer to your specific questions, 1) this has been requested, see bugzilla:50593, but remains unprioritised and classed as an enhancement so don't hold your breath. 2) Modifying Visual Editor to spport the current popups gadget has apparently been rejected, but whether it or a future gadget could be made to work with Visual Editor I don't know. Bugzilla:503 and Bugzilla:29272 are possibly relevant to this though. Thryduulf (talk) 15:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Who cares what the users want or whether the links they're inserting are correct.
Browser tab crash on editing lumpectomy
The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 50043

When editing lumpectomy, when you make a selection that includes the block of references at the end, and then press ctrl+x, it crashes the google chrome tab (chrome 28). WS (talk) 15:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I can't reproduce this in Firefox 22 so it could be browser specific. I don't have Chrome to test it with but other people watching this page do. Thryduulf (talk) 15:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Confirmed on my own Chrome 28 : message "Aw, Snap! Something went wrong while displaying this webpage. To continue, reload or go to another page.". No problem on FF 17. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 16:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Reproduced in Chrome 27 on OSX; thanks, all :). I'll throw it in now. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Professionalism.
Totally not an alpha.
Nowiki. Again

I'm not sure what the user intended here, but I'm sure that <nowiki /> was not supposed to be part of it. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I got an instance of that here as well. Insulam Simia (talk/contribs) 16:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) ×2 Almost certainly they were trying to change the link to "Grand Theatre, Blackpool". I'll add this to Bugzilla:50945. Thryduulf (talk) 17:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
here it seems the editor attempted to insert one link using wikitext and VE inserted nowikis around every bit of markup in the paragraph, including preexisting stuff. Just got to work out which bug to update now. Thryduulf (talk) 17:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Reported at Bugzilla:51554 but it's probably a duplicate of something. Thryduulf (talk) 17:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Both those instances looks like UI issues where the user didn't leave a space after the ']]' and the next word: (Ex: [[..Theater]]and, [[Hamitic]]stock). Without the <nowiki/ > after the link, "and", "stock" would become linktrails of the preceding link which would be incorrect. So, the UI could maybe alert the user about this. I assume this is not a very common scenario. Ssastry (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Regression failure.
Album ratings

Has someone brought up Template:Album ratings? This is an instance where the transclusion option on VE, while it does work, is more inconvenient than just wiki-markup. In wikimarkup, if you want to insert a new review into the middle of the template, i.e. between reviews 3 and 4 (rev3 and rev4), you just change rev4 to rev5 (and rev5 to 6 and so on), then insert the new score. With VE, you have to add a new rev parameter to the bottom, and move the content of ALL of the parameters affected through copy-paste. This is much more time consuming than editing the wikitext.--¿3family6 contribs 17:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
VisualEnema, making your life easier if you edit just the way we tell you you can.
New and experienced editors LOVE it.
Mysterious

An editor made a change to the Danny Worsnop article using VE - but the changes haven't showed up in the article (even when there is a diff). What on earth is going on here? Insulam Simia (talk/contribs) 17:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I see the "artists" in the displayed article. Clear your browser's cache, perhaps? Ignatzmice•talk 18:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
VisualEnema, where clearing your browser's cache is a totally acceptable solution.
Reminds me of having to reboot windows now and then... in 1998.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:24 pm

Hex wrote:Rather than all this presuming, it makes sense to go read the code. You can also see the output (patch set comments by jenkins-bot) of their integration tests, build history, etc. There's a lot to assess and little to guess.

Their development tools, like Gerrit, look pretty solid to me.
Do you have a link to their test plan, test output or regression environment?
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:38 pm

Frankly, I've been out of the game for long enough that I only half understand most of what I'm looking at. It wouldn't surprise me if those were findable through Gerrit or Jenkins.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by lilburne » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:54 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Hex wrote:Rather than all this presuming, it makes sense to go read the code. You can also see the output (patch set comments by jenkins-bot) of their integration tests, build history, etc. There's a lot to assess and little to guess.

Their development tools, like Gerrit, look pretty solid to me.
Do you have a link to their test plan, test output or regression environment?
They have integration failures. The last time I had product integration test failures was more than two years ago. Today one of the librarians had a test failure when he ran his library tests. A wreck task was raised, the person that made the change is absent, so someone from his team was required to fix the break or back out the change. The wreck condition was cleared two hours later. Someone was making a change to my application but preintegration test run flagged an issue. The code change was pulled before it went to integration proper. As I said last week you don't fucking break my application. I'll do app integration in the morning and I'll expect a green lights from each and every the regression test.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Zoloft » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:29 pm


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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:01 pm

Here's some of the test suite in git and here's an old copy of it from November that actually runs.

If you're looking for browser automation in there, don't bother - it doesn't exist yet!
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by lilburne » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:10 pm

Hex wrote:Here's some of the test suite in git and here's an old copy of it from November that actually runs.

If you're looking for browser automation in there, don't bother - it doesn't exist yet!
One thing is for sure: this will never be tested.
https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawik ... nverter.js

anyone want to guess at the number of paths through it?
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:24 pm

lilburne wrote: One thing is for sure: this will never be tested.
https://git.wikimedia.org/blob/mediawik ... nverter.js
They're trying:

Code: Select all

[line 1290]  // TODO: It's not covered with unit tests.
What that comment says, though, is that their test suite doesn't test test coverage.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:29 pm

Here's a winner

https://git.wikimedia.org/repositories/

How many suppositories?
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by lilburne » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:39 pm

Vigilant wrote:Here's a winner

https://git.wikimedia.org/repositories/

How many suppositories?
They are trying ...

bug 48683) Use a correct way to get base titles
https://git.wikimedia.org/commitdiff/me ... 735c4d0a45

Reverting change I6d2fa445 to fix regression.
https://git.wikimedia.org/commitdiff/me ... b967c7367c

... OK no more being mean from me.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:40 pm

Here's yet another person questioning things.
He'll probably be indeffed shortly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... e_cycle.3F
The VE team is using the Agile cycle?

Okeyes (WMF) recently said the functional specification is "the VE should do what the markup editor does". In terms of very precise, fine-grained analysis of "button X, when clicked, goes to state Y", we apparently don't have that, indeed, for reasons that boil down to "we're not a government operation". The VE team is using the Agile cycle (diff). Skipping over the implication that describing a UI state machine is somehow not Agile, I wonder whether this is a broader symptom of the problem we have here. Agile aims to deliver a cycle of frequent releases, where each release is small, works well, has minimal bugs and delivers some incremental benefit(s) to delighted users. It's great when you need to discover requirements incrementally. The Visual Editor project isn't anything like that. The requirements are vast and already known. VE touches all our existing data and editing processes so it requires thousands of features, which are effectively being delivered in a single "big bang" release. Because it's so big, it has far more bugs than a typical Agile iteration. The potential benefits will accrue to new users, but the risk of damage to existing articles is borne by current users, who aren't in contact with the developers anyway.
I could go on, but you get my point. If WMF wants to roll out Visual Editor to all users then it's a traditional big bang "bet the business" software project which necessitates the traditional painful software engineering cycle. If WMF prefers to use Agile practices, then they have to accept an incremental release approach which means having fewer features per release but making sure they work safely (e.g. you can't create a citation, but you can't delete one either). You can't have it both ways. Don't make Visual Editor the Dreamliner of software projects. - Pointillist (talk) 22:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
He is absolutely correct.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Zoloft » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:01 am

VisualEditor Team:
Roan Kattouw
Rob Moen
Ed Sanders
Inez Korczyński (Wikia)
Christian Williams (Wikia)
Timo Tijhof

Management:
James Forrester
Trevor Parscal

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:17 am

Please let us turn it off...
No. You are stupid and we know better than you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... e_us_a_way.

Ignore valid customer complaints and requests. Let engineering drive all development decisions.


VisualEnema numbers are bad and dropping.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ance_notes
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:19 am

You know what this debacle reminds me of? The "New Coke" situation - except that in this case, the product is genuinely a pile of dogshit.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:44 am

Vigilant wrote:VisualEnema numbers are bad and dropping.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ance_notes
To play devil's advocate for a moment -- is it possible that Visual Editor induces a drop in the number of overall edits because the VE facilitates easier or more comprehensive "one time" changes to a page? That is, can you sort of do more editing in one stop with VE than you can with source editor?
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:45 pm

Dude.

This week an update to the unified login system went live, improving authentication across all the wikis (and removing that "Logging you into WMF wikis..." screen you used to get upon logging in). It all went smoothly... or did it?
Stefan2 wrote: This system is buggy. I own the SUL account "Stefan2", but other people own my username locally on Commons and two language editions of Wikipedia, and the accounts on those three projects are not attached to SUL (see sulutil:Stefan2). If I go to Commons, the new SUL system partially logs me in to the local Stefan2 account on Commons: Commons:Special:Preferences tells that I'm not logged in, but the links at the top say that I'm logged in. The user name, Special:Contributions link and "log out" links are all there. Also, the interface is partially in English, partially in German. I'm guessing that the one who set the interface to German was the guy who owns the user name on Commons. I don't know whether I can access any private data other than the language setting, and I don't know whether any edits would be attributed to my IP address or to Commons:User:Stefan2. In any case, things seem to be wrong, and there may be security issues with this. Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/TvwRbSE.png --Stefan2 (talk) 11:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
That's right: not only do different parts of the system know whether a user is logged in or not, but it's accessing private data from a different account.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by lilburne » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:57 pm

Vigilant wrote: He is absolutely correct.
Really? The complaints we get is that there are too many releases (1 service pack release per month). The two major releases a year we did were whined about as too much, that we on a one major release per year schedule. Internally we release twice or three times a week. But customers don't want a constant stream of releases. Perhaps its the nature of the software as it needs to be installed on multiple machines. Customers have their own regression tests, users may need additional support and training on new features. In some places it can take 5 or more years before they'll proof out a software upgrade.

Web apps may be more amenable to frequent releases but I suspect that everyone who has experienced downtime because of an upgrade is thoroughly wary of the whole process.

Now just imagine frequent releases by this lot as they shuffle the GUI this way and that way from day to day, break working code from release to release.
They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Zoloft » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:01 pm

lilburne wrote:
Vigilant wrote: He is absolutely correct.
Really? The complaints we get is that there are too many releases (1 service pack release per month). The two major releases a year we did were whined about as too much, that we on a one major release per year schedule. Internally we release twice or three times a week. But customers don't want a constant stream of releases. Perhaps its the nature of the software as it needs to be installed on multiple machines. Customers have their own regression tests, users may need additional support and training on new features. In some places it can take 5 or more years before they'll proof out a software upgrade.

Web apps may be more amenable to frequent releases but I suspect that everyone who has experienced downtime because of an upgrade is thoroughly wary of the whole process.

Now just imagine frequent releases by this lot as they shuffle the GUI this way and that way from day to day, break working code from release to release.
The most dreaded phrase at work is: "These changes will be transparent to the user."

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by TungstenCarbide » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:26 pm

I can't get VE working through tor :(
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by lilburne » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:35 pm

Zoloft wrote: The most dreaded phrase at work is: "These changes will be transparent to the user."
This is NOT a joke:

http://xkcd.com/1172/

The problem with users is that some of them think. They observe side effects, and build a system around it.
Last edited by lilburne on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:51 pm

lilburne wrote:Really? The complaints we get is that there are too many releases (1 service pack release per month). [...]
I wish Apple would cut it down to twice a year or so. Every time my "software update" tells me about a new (and usually less desirable) update for iTunes, my mail program crashes, requiring restart. Dorks.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Jim » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:57 am

TungstenCarbide wrote:I can't get VE working through tor :(
You should complain on the feedback page.
People using anonymous proxy servers need this tool. It makes vandalism so much easier, by just trashing random chunks of content for you effortlessly.
It can be enough to just insert a few commas somewhere, and *poof* a whole section is gone, or mashed.
:idea: Perhaps they should rename it "Buggle" and advertise it as a semi-automated vandalism tool?

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:33 am

Image

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:11 pm

Zoloft wrote:
:D

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:09 pm

Nice spin on a classic!

Image

(Incidentally, evolution of this joke since the 1960s is fascinating.)
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:08 pm

It's been a raggedy Friday for the VisualEnema
Switching to Edit source deleted modifications
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 47779 (Ed note: this is a very old bug, still not fixed)

I did some edits in the Visual Editor (which is very, very nice, by the way!), but then switched to Edit Source for more fine control on my edits. All my Visual Editor modifications vanished, and I couldn't get them back even when I tried to go back to the visual editor. Very annoying! Ochado (talk) 18:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately at the moment the visual and source editors are entirely different and there is no way to transfer edits between the two. The ability to do this has been requested as Bugzilla:47779 but it is marked as low priority. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Thryduulf (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You should get a popup window appearing if you try to do this. When I do it I get a window with "Confirm Navigation, Are you sure you want to go back to view mode without saving first? Are you sure you want to leave this page?" That should at least give you a chance to save before you loose work.--Salix (talk): 05:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
It was probably a shitty edit anyway.
Headers remain after sections are removed
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564830932 --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a known bug, and I think it's Bugzilla:50100 but I'm not 100% sure of that. Thryduulf (talk) 20:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Nice to see that the Customer Liaisons are up to snuff.
Here's a hint, go check first.
Ambiguity in "Are you sure you want to cancel" dialog?

When a user makes an edit in the visual editor and then clicks the "Cancel" button, a dialog comes up asking whether the user wants to leave the editor without saving. The two buttons on this dialog are "OK" and "Cancel". Some users might find it confusing that clicking the "Cancel" button on the web page leads to a "Cancel" button on the dialog that cancels the cancellation. 128.84.98.128 (talk) 19:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
*sigh*
When trying to save a VE edit, no message about the database being locked

I made some edits to an article with VE, but when I tried to save (after final review), nothing happened. Well, the moving blue and white stripes appeared for a second, but then nothing, still looking at the save dialog. I discarded my edits (this is one of the least fun features of VE) and went to the source editor and tried to make the changes. Found that the database was locked so the slaves could catch up. Waited a minute and made the save. I wouldn't have discarded my first efforts if VE had let me know what was going on and let me wait and retry. Currently, Blown save is a redirect to Save (baseball) (and it's not a statistic any player desires); we may soon need a hatnote there to mention the VE variety of blown save. Chris the speller yack 20:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Heh. FWIW, I ran into this same issue earlier. Theopolisme (talk) 21:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Someone has already reported this as Bugzilla:51636], although it is possible that this might be the same as Bugzilla:50472 which is fixed but apparently not yet deployed. Thryduulf (talk) 21:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Well shit, Cletus. We didn't think of what to do in the interface if the commit failed for some reason.
Totally unforeseeable condition. Who would even think to test and regress something so completely off the main use cases?
Morons.
Visual Editor Userbox?

I took a quick look around, but did not see a userbox which one could append to their user page indicating they are either using or trying to use Visual Editor as their primary editor (vs. Classic). Hmm, could be a parameter taking userbox which would allow one to select either VE or Classic as their preferred editing mode. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

There are three userboxs: Pro-VE, Neutral-VE, and Anti-VE.--Dom497 (talk) 00:05, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm very interested in percentages of deployment on these new boxes.
There should be a userbox for "Visual Editor?! Fuck no"
Inserting Template Parameters

Whenever I try to insert parameters from a template into an article, only the first few parameters come up for me to choose from; I can not scroll down to see the others. Is anyone else experiencing this problem?--Dom497 (talk) 00:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Which template(s) are you experiencing this with? I have possibly misunderstood this, but I think that only mandatory parameters are listed and you have to manually enter the names of optional ones. Thryduulf (talk) 00:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: All of them. Try to add cite web for example and I only the first 5 optional parameters show up (the mandatory parameters are already placed in the template). To access the rest, I have to scroll down, but I can't.--Dom497 (talk) 00:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


I don't remember whether the list was scrollable or not, previously (though I would have thought I'd have noticed if it were not). But it's very much not scrollable now. (The examples in user's guide don't have enough parameters to be scrollable, and the guide doesn't mention this.)

Perhaps the thought was that the list should not be scrollable because you can't select from it; you have to select a parameter by typing a parameter name in the search box, and then pressing Enter/Return? By (as I've posted earlier), the only description of the parameters is with the list; when you start to enter data for an already selected parameter, there is no clue given as to what the parameter is for, or how its data should be entered. So, a bug, definitely. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 01:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I rather scroll than have to type in a parameter name that I might not even know! So yes, this is a bug that needs to be fixed.--Dom497 (talk) 01:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, without scrolling, it is impossible to access the "Remove template" button - Evad37 (talk) 01:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Just to complicate matters, the parameter name is case sensitive, eg typing "publisher" (without the double diddles) results in "Unknown parameter". Downsize43 (talk) 02:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
AhAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHA
Template parameter search fails when searching for a parameter whose name is two or more words.

I was testing the template/transclusion dialog box, using the cite web template, and noticed that when I start typing "Source date" (without quotes, of course) into the search box, something interesting happens when I get to the "d" - the search results say "Unknown parameter". That is, at the point where I've typed "Source d", then - essentially - the search fails; the search software decides that there are no matching entries
Spaces aren't real characters?!?!
Let's just tokenize on spaces and pass the result to the search function!

Have none of you fucking monkeys ever written a parser?
Have none of you taken compiler design?
For the love of god, how bad are you guys?
Modifying a reference

With the exception of minor text changes, modifying a reference should be the easiest of all tasks in a user friendly editor. After many frustrating false starts and a couple of near disasters I have finally worked out how to do it, and I wonder how many newbies and not so new editors will have the same experience. For the record the process that works at present is as follows:

1. Click on the ref hotlink - the ref icon is displayed.
2. Click on the ref icon - the ref dialog is displayed.
3. Click on the ref details - the transclusion (??) icon is displayed.
4. Click on the trans icon - the template details and current parameters are displayed.
5. From here, proceed as for a new ref (within the limitations described in the previous two items)

Downsize43 (talk) 02:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately this only works if the existing ref contains "URL=" and "source=" as well as the actual URL and source name. If not the source name is displayed in the ref details as an active link, and the transclusion icon is NOT displayed when the user attempts to select (click on) the ref details. NFA is possible in VE for those links. Downsize43 (talk) 11:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Totally plausible to make a user make FIVE selections to edit a reference while providing ZERO documentation.
Trying to figure out how to work their editor is like playing NetHack (T-H-L) for the first time.
Weird image problems
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51665
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51624
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51666
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51292
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51531

Using Firefox 21.0

Problem 1: Clicking on a media file and dragging the mouse causes the cursor to change to the "I'm moving an image" icon, but the image doesn't actually move. I can only move an image if I click it once to select it, then click and hold.

Problem 2: If I move an image a small enough distance across the screen that it doesn't actually move, I can't move it again unless I deselect it and then reselect it.

Problem 3: Suppose an image lives between paragraphs 1 and 2. If I click before the first word of paragraph 2 and press "backspace", the rest of paragraph 2 gets moved into the caption of the image.

Problem 4: Suppose an image lives between paragraphs 1 and 2. If I click after the last word of paragraph 1 and press "delete", the image disappears and the caption gets moved to the end paragraph 1.

Problem 5: As far as I can tell, the only way to move an image such that it lives at the very beginning of a section is to drag it such that the cursor falls immediately after the last letter of the section header. This is not intuitive.

Problem 6: Dragging an image such that the cursor falls in the middle of a section header causes it to split into two sections. Not sure why this should be possible.

Problem 7: If an image has a caption which ends with a link, and I attempt to add text to the end of the caption, it automatically gets added to the anchor text of the link. I can find no way around this.

My apologies if any of these have been reported before. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Good luck Featured Picture types...
Not supported on Firefox 22.0

If I try to use VisualEditor on the most recent version of Firefox, version 22.0, I get You are using a browser which is not officially supported by VisualEditor. Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 03:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

@Pseudonymous Rex: It is working in 22.0 for many users. Which platform do you use? Windows/Unix/OSX/Linux? version? starsign? John Vandenberg (chat) 04:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

@John Vandenberg: Windows 7. Chrome 28.0.1500.72 m on the same computer does not give that message. Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 04:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
And now it's no longer giving that notice in Firefox. Oh, well. Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Just for the record, I've also had the same notice occurring sporadically and inconsistently on FF22.0 (also Windows7).
Sometimes VE opens fine and sometimes I get the "not officially supported" message.
There does not appear to be a pattern. Risker (talk) 04:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
This is VERY, VERY BAD.
The behavior of the VisualEnema is bad enough in its consistent state of awfulness.
If this piece of shit is also inconsistent in its behavior then all bets are off.
I'll bet there's something really bad going on with internal state being trashed.
Fooling around with indenters
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 50841

Using Firefox 21.0

Here's what I tried: Place a colon, semicolon, or asterisk at the beginning of a paragraph in VE. When it saves, the indenter is preceded by <nowiki>, which makes sense. As far as I can tell, the closing </nowiki> tag is placed immediately before the next piece of wiki markup in that paragraph. In some cases, this will be at the very end of the paragraph.

The problem: Upon entering VE again, the first line of the paragraph will be blocked off with the green "no edit" bar, but the rest of the paragraph will appear to be editable, even though it is not. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a known bug, see Bugzilla:50841. Thryduulf (talk) 08:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

There are some peculiar side-effects. To demonstrate, prepare a paragraph of text several lines long, with no Wiki markup until a wikilink several lines down, and some further text after that. This test piece is a suitable sample. Test done with Win7/FF22.0.

In VE edit mode, add five spaces at the start of the first line. They appear on the screen.
Save the page. The spaces are no longer visible.
Examine with Edit source. The spaces are present, but everything from the start of the paragraph until just before the wikilink is bracketed by a <nowiki> ... </nowiki> pair.
Click "Edit". About one space is now visible at the start of the paragraph, with the cursor blinking to left of it. Pressing the right-arrow key to move the cursor skips it straight to the wikilink.
Try to edit. Moving the pointer over the first line covers it with green stripes, changes the pointer to a red "prohibition" sign, and gives the message "Sorry, this element can only be edited in source mode for now."
Positioning the pointer (to try to edit) anywhere after the first line but before the wikilink covers the first line with green stripes but does not give a message or change the pointer. Clicking in this area to try to position the cursor has no effect, but if you now type something, everything before the wikilink (the whole content of the nowiki pair) is deleted.
Editing after the wikilink is normal.

This will all be deeply confusing to a newbie, and trying to indent the first line of a paragraph is not an uncommon newbie mistake.
PS: I see that bug is marked "resolved fixed" so I will try this again in a day or so. JohnCD (talk) 09:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Poor noobs.
editing Baird's Trogon - problems
The following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

Hi I am still very new at wiki editing. I have read the tutorial and chatted with a senior editor (Ser Amantio di Nicolao) who has sent me to you. He thinks the problems I am having are because of visual editor and he is not that familiar with it. I am just trying to figure out how to add links. I added one but not successfully and he changed it for me. I wanted to add a flickr photo too and I am not having any luck with it at all. I am so ignorant I don't even know how to ask an intelligent question about my problems. All I can say is "help!" Reefswaggie (talk) 06:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Nobody's familiar with VisualEditor yet. It's a new feature. Hereby, you are appointed the Senior Specialist. --93.75.134.116 (talk) 06:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

@Reefswaggie: Hey, looks like you've run into the nowiki problem! That's a major bug in VE; I don't know f they're actually trying to fix it, but they are considering more in-your-face warnings about adding wikitext while in VE. (Note: User's diffs start here. Ignatzmice•talk 11:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

so how do I get out of VE? Reefswaggie (talk) 11:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

and if I am the Senior Specialist, you guys are in trouble! lol Reefswaggie (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

see the FAQ at the top of this page, or the big yellow box when you edit this page Ignatzmice•talk 12:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, we are.—Kww(talk) 14:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
There's some editor retention for you.
Navigation boxes
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51664

Currently, navigation boxes are always uncollapsed when editing. This can be quite annoying when having to deal with big ones like {{The Beatles}}, e.g. on "I'm a Loser", also it might be confusing editors into believing that this part of a page can easily be edited. --The Evil IP address (talk) 08:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
And on and on and on.
It's not like they had a spec to design against or anything so mundane.
Accidental removal of an entire infobox
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 49806 (Ed Note: Very old bug, still not fixed)

Using Google Chrome's "find" feature, I've noticed that a few other editors have run into this issue as well. However, I thought I should make it a more prominent concern listed on this page by giving it a separate subsection.

I just deleted an entire infobox and disambiguation link at Gondar after I attempted to remove a bit of excessive spacing — and in order to re-add them, I had to use a previous revision of the page for a copy/paste edit to the source. Clicking the "undo" button did nothing. This is needless tedium and should be fixed as soon as possible. If not, then VisualEditor compares unfavourably to the original editing format. Kurtis (talk) 08:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

This is mostly covered by bugreport 49806 —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
More editor retention.
Editing window does not scroll when dragging an image
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51669

When dragging an item in the visual editor (tested with image and text), the editing window does not scroll up or down when you reach the top or bottom of the window. This means you have to make several consecutive drag and drop actions to move an item within a long article/section.

I've tracked this as Bugzilla:51669 but it would be useful to know if it affects browsers other than Firefox 22 on Xubuntu Linux. Thryduulf (talk) 09:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA
Click, drag, curse.
Click, drag, curse.
Click, drag, curse.
"♙♙♙♙♙♙♙" characters appear in iOS after editing near a link
Tracked in Bugzilla
Bug 51677

After I edited text near a link, "♙♙♙♙♙♙♙" characters started appearing around once a second, and I couldn't stop them or delete them. 121.45.199.248 (talk) 11:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

That really shouldn't be happening! I can't replicate that in Firefox on my Linux laptop (I don't have any iOS devices), but I've reported it at Bugzilla:51677. If anyone else can repoduce it that would be good to know. Thryduulf (talk) 11:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Not confirmed in Safari on iOS 7 beta 3. IP121, what exactly did you do? How close is "near" a link? Ignatzmice•talk 11:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I have _not_ observed this behavior on iPad2 using Safari. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

@Okeyes (WMF): Oliver has several times made cryptic comments about bugs involving "infinite loops of chess pieces", so he probably has some idea of what is going on here. Let me note that archive searching using the box at the top of this page doesn't seem to work -- when I search for "pawn", I only get one hit, even though I know there are a lot more than that. Looie496 (talk) 14:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Searching on "chess" (as in "chess pieces") will get you another archived section. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 16:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
So much for test matrices and automated regression testing.
Nice to see that they've archived this bug as fixed too.
Slow Speed on MobileSafari on iPad 2 with iOS 6.1.3

The initial edit load took about a minute on MobileSafari on iPad 2 with iOS 6.1.3. Subsequent edits were faster - about 10 seconds. The first edit upload was also very slow - about 30 seconds. 121.45.199.248 (talk) 11:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

There are other problems on the iPad 2 using Safari in addition to load performance. For instance, in general it is difficult to get popups to behave properly, so that section editing using Classic is problematic (tough to get the 'edit source' link to appear without click-through the 'edit' link). There are problems with the Template Editor in relation to the basic rendering of the dialog and the ability to scroll through parameter options. The local caching behavior is such that it is easier to lose content from an editing session than on, for instance, Chrome on a linux desktop machine. In general, I would not at this time recommend using VE on iPad 2 using Safari; but I do edit on this platform using Classic mode. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Losing the tablet war faster than Microsoft.
Can't save changes!

See subject 1Z (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Seems like that's something that should never fail.
CSS

Currently, on articles and userpages, editing using the VisualEditor uses the #ca-edit CSS id and editing the source uses the #ca-editsource CSS id. However, in all other namespaces, #ca-edit is the only edit link. For people like me who like to change the titling or styling of the tabs, this inconsistency is annoying. (For me, it makes the "edit" tab on this page display as "VE" rather than "Source".) Could the CSS id tags be made consistent (use #ca-editsource for all non-VE editing)? Thanks. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone at WMF dev ever try out their builds?
Is there any internal testing at all?
external link problem

I cannot figure out how to add an external link to a citation's source in this Visual Editor. -- NewzealanderA (talk) 16:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest using wikimarkup for now. VisualEditor is extremely feature-light and buggy just now. To turn it off, go to Preferences (it's a link in the upper-right), switch to the "Gadgets" tab, and look for the one to disable VisualEditor. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Pffft. Citations. Pffft.
Let's release an editor for a nominal encyclopedia that doesn't handle references and citations.
See how long that decision would last you in the real world.
meta:Research:VisualEditor's effect on newly registered editors/Results

The A/B test, June 25-28, showed that new users using wikimarkup made more edits, more "productive edits", spent more time editing, and were far more likely to start editing compared to those using the VisualEditor. Newcomers with the VisualEditor were ~10% less likely to save a single edit than editors with the wikitext editor.

A number of severe bugs with the VisualEditor, which were not solved before launch, are likely to blame for these results. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for politely pointing this study out, Adam. It would be nice to hear from Jdforrester to find out why given the profoundly negative feedback this product has received combined with empirical evidence that in its present condition it doesn't achieve any of the goals, he doesn't withdraw this deployment and delay all future plans for deploying this on other versions of Wikipedia. This is intended as a polite question, so I would appreciate it if detractors didn't pile on with insults. I'm told that the deployment schedule is Jdforrester's decision alone, and I'm extremely interested in understanding his reasoning.
The study is flawed in one way: it measures only edits reverted instead of edits that required correction. Most responsible editors, confronted with the common defects of VE, would choose to correct the edit by removing extraneous nowikis and similar glitches rather than completely revert them. That renders the conclusion that the editor creates "no additional burden" extremely suspect.—Kww(talk) 17:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Ow! My aching rectum! Ow!

Link to the study
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Researc ... rs/Results
Money shot
Summary

It appears that issues with VE that prevented newcomers from using it to complete edits had a significant effect on the experiment and the analysis. Newcomers with VE enabled performed less wiki-work and spent less time editing overall. They were also less likely than users with the wikitext editor to eventually save an edit.
Bulleted lists

I tried to delete one entry and a blue box appeared and I was unable to edit. Also, when I try to do an edit next to a wikilink it links my edited word as well. I'd like to comment too. I've been editing since 2006. I learned to edit by looking to see how others managed to get things to work. Which was not really hard at all. But I can say for a fact that if this system was in place when I started editing I would have never been able to become an editor. I'm not dumb, in fact my IQ is in the upper 5%, but I'm pretty old. I learned to type on a black Underwood. Even if all the bugs were fixed, I'd still not be able to use it except for things such a tweaks and copy edits. Gandydancer (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I was curious and looked at this ... yes, it's a two-column list within {{div col}}, so VE refuses to let you edit the items in the list in any user-friendly manner. Particularly confusing as on my computer it displays as a single-column list when I read the article or edit it in VE, until I try editing the Section in Edit Source and it sets out in two cols (because it no longer has to share width with the infobox). I know I reported this problem a long way back, and it went into Bugzilla, where the developers seemed to say something like "It would be better if xyz (I forget what) was used for multicolumns", rather than taking the problem seriously. Yet another instance where VE does not provide the expected facility to do a straightforward edit: this is a bug, not an enhancement. I'll try and find the Bug number... Yes, bug 50182. Note comments 3 and 4, and the fact that it's listed as "normal enhancement", although it totally prevents a lot of perfectly normal editing. The tone from the devs seems to be "Well you shouldn't be trying to do that anyway...", rather than "OMG that's a serious problem because there are masses of instances of text being within templates and we need to fix this ASAP." PamD 19:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Editor retention, ftw.
Layout breaks when I open article in VE

Gibberd Garden is a well-set-out little stub. But when I open it in VE (Firefox 22, Windows Vista) the second item in the External links disappears to below the infobox. When I save the edit, it reappears correctly formatted. Just another of those things which makes the editor think that they've done something wrong. Probably an existing bug...? PamD 18:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

On further investigation... if I widen my editing window so that the "External links" element is not being asked to wrap, then all is well. But VE refuses to wrap that entry, even though it has plain text in the middle between two links. Ah... it's generated by a single template, so presumably that's the problem - VE and templates being a toxic mixture! PamD 19:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Templates. Something that everyone uses and VisualEnema doesn't support.
Please put categories next to existing categories

When I add a category to an article, I would prefer VE to follow the rules of WP:ORDER, that categories go before stubs. I know that's contentious, it's En.wiki-specific, VE is unlikely to be able to do it.

But please, when I'm adding a category to an article which has one or more existing categories, at least put the new one next to the old one. That's what any reasonably tidy-minded human editor would do, rather than stick to a rule of "categories go at the end" as it appears to have done here, so we have cat, stub, stub, cat (and no blank lines between any of them). As I've said before: the logical processing needed to get this right is well established within AWB's general fixes: it seems a shame if that existing logic can't be used in VE so that it gets things right. PamD 19:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
It's a shame that the WMF dev team doesn't edit. They aren't forced to eat their own dog food.
Why can't VE support Wikitext?

Why, if I type, say: * [[Link]]

...can't VE recognise the Wikitext, and simply convert it into graphical display after a, say, 5 second delay, or when the user presses a "convert" button? Since it can already recognise Wikitext being typed, it seems like this should be a trivial feature. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Away, mortal!
Wikitext notice doesn't disappear when wikitext is removed.

When testing the new notice, I noticed that when I deleted the wikitext the new warning didn't disappear, which is a bit of an annoyance. Insulam Simia (talk/contribs) 19:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I also noticed that the warning stayed at the top of the page, which, of course, isn't helpful. Insulam Simia (talk/contribs) 19:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I'll give you such a warning if you don't stop pestering me, mortal.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Hex » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:22 pm

Image
Vigilant wrote: I'm very interested in percentages of deployment on these new boxes.
Also this category.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:27 pm

Vigilant wrote:It's been a raggedy Friday for the VisualEnema ...
Wow! Is this the longest post on the site?
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:31 pm

SB_Johnny wrote:
lilburne wrote:Really? The complaints we get is that there are too many releases (1 service pack release per month). [...]
I wish Apple would cut it down to twice a year or so. Every time my "software update" tells me about a new (and usually less desirable) update for iTunes, my mail program crashes, requiring restart. Dorks.
Careful - an Apple emplloyee might see this and not want to be friends with you any more.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by lilburne » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:32 pm

This is how you do a dialog box.

You are about to lose all your work!
[OK]
They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
So Google's shills can shriek there whenever they're inclined

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:37 pm

lilburne wrote:This is how you do a dialog box.

You are about to lose all your work!
[Suck it, loser]
You got the button text wrong
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:40 pm

Outsider wrote:
Vigilant wrote:It's been a raggedy Friday for the VisualEnema ...
Wow! Is this the longest post on the site?
*bows*

I can't take all the credit... My friends, the WMF devs!!!
*applause*

And that's ONLY ONE DAY OF FEEDBACK ... TWO WEEKS AFTER THE PRODUCTION RELEASE!

That'll do, pig. That'll do.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:45 pm

Here's a disturbing blurb.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Researc ... rs/Results
Removal of results related to EventLogging instrumentation

A set of anomalies related to event logging for this experiment were discovered and could not be reconciled, so a substantial portion of this analysis was removed from the "Editing ease" section. We are not able to confidently report figures related to:

* Edit save time The time between when a newcomer was presented with the edit pane and when he/she clicked "save". I.e. the time between when a user begins and completes an edit.
* Edit completion proportion The proportion of users that complete an edit after viewing the edit pane.
* Edit funnel: The proportion of user who cross thresholds related to editing.

Note that this data has not been used in any other part of the analysis or in any of the public dashboards, so it should't affect the other results in any way. --EpochFail (talk) 21:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
I'd say that those are extremely important metrics and that the experiment should be rerun.
It makes me wonder that they didn't do a test run and check the results before starting their research live and losing a goodly portion of the research they attempted to perform.

Some things are the same anywhere you go in the wikimedia shitverse.

P.S. The editor's handle is PERFECT!!!!
More about him
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EpochFail

Makes me wonder what his PhD adviser would say about his lack of methodology testing prior to running the experiment.
That will get your ass kicked to the curb in a real lab.
Same old, same old at wikipedia.

http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/doc ... ulum_vitae
Seems like a nice kid though 7 years and counting on a PhD is a bit long.

http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/pub ... d_Decline/
Conclusion

Wikipedia has changed from “the encyclopedia that anyone can edit” to “the encyclopedia that anyone who understands the norms, socializes him or her self, dodges the impersonal wall of semi-automated rejection and still wants to voluntarily contribute his or her time and energy can edit”.
While this is a good start, it is far from the whole picture.
Last edited by Vigilant on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Malleus » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:47 pm

How convenient that there's an alleged problem with event logging.

Where are there not problems?

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:01 pm

Malleus wrote:How convenient that there's an alleged problem with event logging.

Where are there not problems?
The non-problematic events have not been logged.
This is not a signature.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:14 pm

Here we go...
Editor for TemplateData

Hi, I've translated a gadget created on frwiki for visually edit TemplateData. It's available at User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor.js. To use it, simply add importScript('User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor.js'); in Special:MyPage/vector.js. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 23:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Editors trading code across projects to try to make things work that should have been in the test release.

It's not a small file, either. 629 lines. User developed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nico ... aEditor.js

Can't wait to see what happens when VE breaks these user built mods.
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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Malleus » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:18 pm

Vigilant wrote:Here we go...
Editor for TemplateData

Hi, I've translated a gadget created on frwiki for visually edit TemplateData. It's available at User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor.js. To use it, simply add importScript('User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor.js'); in Special:MyPage/vector.js. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 23:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Editors trading code across projects to try to make things work that should have been in the test release.

It's not a small file, either. 629 lines. User developed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nico ... aEditor.js

Can't wait to see what happens when VE breaks these user built mods.
I can't believe the incomptence on display, but I guess there must be some financial bonuses involved.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:00 am

Here's Oliver Keyes, WMF Community Liaison, trying to hide damning information about the VisualEnema
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564982316

And here
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564981526

Jesus, you moron, you don't hide data that you don't like.
Clumsy and stupid is no way to go through life.

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Re: The Visual Editor is a huge failure

Unread post by Zoloft » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:04 am

Vigilant wrote:Here's Oliver Keyes, WMF Community Liaison, trying to hide damning information about the VisualEnema
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564982316

And here
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =564981526

Jesus, you moron, you don't hide data that you don't like.
Clumsy and stupid is no way to go through life.

Sped.
Adam Cuerden is just gonna *love* having his comment censored.

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