All the Israel/Palestine infighting on Wikipedia

[Zoloft]

I am repurposing an earlier post to make a combined topic for all the I/P warrior cruft.

[rnu]

Drsmoo (T-C-L) is once again at AE making obvious bad faith allegations. This time the target is the famously "retired" Nishidani (T-C-L).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... #Nishidani

Some past Drsmoo shenanigans:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13149&hilit=drsmoo#p334279
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13027&p=330022&hilit=drsmoo#p330022

[Zoll]

Aren't slurs for ANI? Like that recent Ruskee discussion.

[Starship Enterprise]

The same jackasses always come when this happens

Nableezy, Selfstudier and Objective3000 all lined up to suck Nishidani off and Coretheapple has his mouth open for Drsmoo

I would say ban all of these idiots except they are too entertaining

[eppur si muove]

How come no one at AE has yet dived in to assert that the use of "dumb" in this context is ableist?

[nableezy]

The same jackasses always come when this happens

Nableezy, Selfstudier and Objective3000 all lined up to suck Nishidani off and Coretheapple has his mouth open for Drsmoo

I would say ban all of these idiots except they are too entertaining

Yes, because objecting to bullshit is "suck[ing] Nishidani off". Thank you for that cogent analysis.

[rnu]

Used the phrase "Dumb Goyim beware" to impugn a living person, perhaps more broadly.

I can only assume he is using it in the same way it is frequently found on hate sites, as a way to claim Jews hate non-Jews.

The issue is not criticism of Bret Stephens, the issue is Nishidani's use of a common antisemitic trope, which is either being used to impugn Bret Stephens, or Jews more broadly.

Nishidani was criticizing Bret Stephen's own outrageous views. In doing so, he sarcastically used the phrase "Dumb Goyim", which is a known antisemitic trope, but which unfortunately, whether intentional or not, added an additional layer of uncomfortable meaning to the reply.

I explained how and why the phrase is antisemitic with reliable sources, rather than commenting on Nishidani.

I’m not making any comments on another user, only on the nature of the phrase he posted, which is absolutely unacceptable.

The dishonesty here is so blatant you'd think Drsmoo is an admin.

[Starship Enterprise]

The same jackasses always come when this happens

Nableezy, Selfstudier and Objective3000 all lined up to suck Nishidani off and Coretheapple has his mouth open for Drsmoo

I would say ban all of these idiots except they are too entertaining

Yes, because objecting to bullshit is "suck[ing] Nishidani off". Thank you for that cogent analysis.

Stop being a Palestine simp and then people will stop thinking you're a Palestine simp

[nableezy]

Stop being a Palestine simp and then people will stop thinking you're a Palestine simp

He's cracked the whole thing wide open with that absolutely brilliant takedown!

[Starship Enterprise]

Stop being a Palestine simp and then people will stop thinking you're a Palestine simp

He's cracked the whole thing wide open with that absolutely brilliant takedown!

Which is true

1. You defend both Israel simps and Palestine simps because you're engaging in good faith
2. You only defend Israel simps because you're a bullshitter
3. You only defend Palestine simps because you're a bullshitter

I know it's not 2 and I haven't seen evidence of 1

[nableezy]

Which is true

1. You defend both Israel simps and Palestine simps because you're engaging in good faith
2. You only defend Israel simps because you're a bullshitter
3. You only defend Palestine simps because you're a bullshitter

I know it's not 2 and I haven't seen evidence of 1

I cant take you seriously when you use the word "simps" that many times, sorry. Like I really tried, swear to god.

[Starship Enterprise]

Which is true

1. You defend both Israel simps and Palestine simps because you're engaging in good faith
2. You only defend Israel simps because you're a bullshitter
3. You only defend Palestine simps because you're a bullshitter

I know it's not 2 and I haven't seen evidence of 1

I cant take you seriously when you use the word "simps" that many times, sorry. Like I really tried, swear to god.

[Hemiauchenia]

I think crudely dismissing all of the people involved in the Israel Palestine topic area, one of the world's most contentious disputes, as "simps" for one side or the other is pretty reductive, no?

[Vigilant]

Which is true

1. You defend both Israel simps and Palestine simps because you're engaging in good faith
2. You only defend Israel simps because you're a bullshitter
3. You only defend Palestine simps because you're a bullshitter

I know it's not 2 and I haven't seen evidence of 1

I cant take you seriously when you use the word "simps" that many times, sorry. Like I really tried, swear to god.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[arkon]

The same jackasses always come when this happens

Nableezy, Selfstudier and Objective3000 all lined up to suck Nishidani off and Coretheapple has his mouth open for Drsmoo

I would say ban all of these idiots except they are too entertaining

It's not -quite- the full house

[charliemouse]

Looks like a boomerang in store for Drsmoo while Nishidani gets the We're Not Anti-Semitic And Neither Are You Award from the Goyim Defense League.

[charliemouse]

Looks like a boomerang in store for Drsmoo while Nishidani gets the We're Not Anti-Semitic And Neither Are You Award from the Goyim Defense League.

Or perhaps not. ScottishFinnishRadish has a reasonably cogent assessment of the situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1207721221

[nableezy]

Looks like a boomerang in store for Drsmoo while Nishidani gets the We're Not Anti-Semitic And Neither Are You Award from the Goyim Defense League.

Or perhaps not. ScottishFinnishRadish has a reasonably cogent assessment of the situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1207721221

He appears to be nearly alone in his everybody is bad take. Not as alone as you are with your not so veiled insult that I’m sure you spent an afternoon to come up with but still pretty lonely.

[charliemouse]

Looks like a boomerang in store for Drsmoo while Nishidani gets the We're Not Anti-Semitic And Neither Are You Award from the Goyim Defense League.

Or perhaps not. ScottishFinnishRadish has a reasonably cogent assessment of the situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1207721221

He appears to be nearly alone in his everybody is bad take. Not as alone as you are with your not so veiled insult that I’m sure you spent an afternoon to come up with but still pretty lonely.

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

[nableezy]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

[yasslay]

When will Wikipedia editors, acting in the capacity of Wikipedia editors, stop slinging shit at other editors on Wikipediocracy as a way to circumvent (gaeming, to bee tecshnicallie ackshurate) the civility/NPA policy? I thought that this was a forum critical of Wikipedia, not one supporting the MMORPG culture of Wikipedia.

Not naming any names - I'm sure everyone can guess who I'm talking about.

Of course, I'm not saying that the dramah isn't fun to watch at all.

Medical note: Overdosing on dramah causes blue eyes (with tremendously sized black bags underneath) and an inner madness to spur out of the affected individual.

edit: grammar

[charliemouse]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

That's right. You're just passing through. No agenda whatsoever. My mistake. And by the way, just to show how indifferent you are to the whole thing, you just spent a good part of a day drafting stuff in AE, and when I cited SFR favorably here, not mentioning you, you weighed in and got nasty.

[nableezy]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

That's right. You're just passing through. No agenda whatsoever. My mistake.

You can pretend your portrayal of what I wrote resembles what I wrote if you want.

[charliemouse]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

That's right. You're just passing through. No agenda whatsoever. My mistake.

You can pretend your portrayal of what I wrote resembles what I wrote if you want.

Just wanted to be sure you saw what I added to what you're quoting: And by the way, just to show how indifferent you are to the whole thing, you just spent a good part of a day drafting stuff in AE, and when I cited SFR favorably here, not mentioning you, you weighed in and got nasty. Remember that? So don't play the victim here.

[nableezy]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

That's right. You're just passing through. No agenda whatsoever. My mistake.

You can pretend your portrayal of what I wrote resembles what I wrote if you want.

Just wanted to be sure you saw what I added to what you're quoting: And by the way, just to show how indifferent you are to the whole thing, you just spent a good part of a day drafting stuff in AE, and when I cited SFR favorably here, not mentioning you, you weighed in and got nasty. Remember that? So don't play the victim here.

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius. I got nasty? I’m the one that said Nishidani got an award from an antisemitic hate group? Cool story. I’d tell you what I think about you but I’ve been told not to attack forum members, no matter how idiotic their posts are.

[charliemouse]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

That's right. You're just passing through. No agenda whatsoever. My mistake.

You can pretend your portrayal of what I wrote resembles what I wrote if you want.

Just wanted to be sure you saw what I added to what you're quoting: And by the way, just to show how indifferent you are to the whole thing, you just spent a good part of a day drafting stuff in AE, and when I cited SFR favorably here, not mentioning you, you weighed in and got nasty. Remember that? So don't play the victim here.

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius. I got nasty? I’m the one that said Nishidani got an award from an antisemitic hate group? Cool story. I’d tell you what I think about you but I’ve been told not to attack forum members, no matter how idiotic their posts are.

Yeah, you got nasty with me. Remember? I didn't mention you. I commented on SFR's comment and you said as follows:
He appears to be nearly alone in his everybody is bad take. Not as alone as you are with your not so veiled insult that I’m sure you spent an afternoon to come up with but still pretty lonely. So like I said, don't play the victim.

Anyway, there's no reason for pearl-clutching on your part. SFR may get outvoted and you will get another adversary smacked around. Which is what you want, right?

[nableezy]

Seems like the appropriate time to share my favorite edit on Wikipedia

[Starship Enterprise]

Now now, Nableezy. You're shedding your "I'm just a disinterested Wikipedian with no stake in this whole distasteful business and am pained by the burden it places on our blessed community" pose.

I’ve never pretended to be such a thing, I said I would rather not have to deal with the canvassing and proxying over "removing opponents" or whatever other bullshit you were spouting.

That's right. You're just passing through. No agenda whatsoever. My mistake.

You can pretend your portrayal of what I wrote resembles what I wrote if you want.

Just wanted to be sure you saw what I added to what you're quoting: And by the way, just to show how indifferent you are to the whole thing, you just spent a good part of a day drafting stuff in AE, and when I cited SFR favorably here, not mentioning you, you weighed in and got nasty. Remember that? So don't play the victim here.

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius. I got nasty? I’m the one that said Nishidani got an award from an antisemitic hate group? Cool story. I’d tell you what I think about you but I’ve been told not to attack forum members, no matter how idiotic their posts are.

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

[yasslay]

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

Jesus wept.

[charliemouse]

Seems like the appropriate time to share my favorite edit on Wikipedia

Rest easy! Victory is within your grasp. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1207783682

[nableezy]

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

It's like people purposely dont read lol. Wild how many of yall have assembled here.

[charliemouse]

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

It's like people purposely dont read lol. Wild how many of yall have assembled here.

OK. Let's do some reading. Here's the only user box on your page:

This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is disallowed from naming particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable.

Who are those "particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable"?

[tarantino]

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

You need to dial it down, or else tell us who you are on wikipedia so we can judge you too.

[rnu]

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

It's like people purposely dont read lol. Wild how many of yall have assembled here.

OK. Let's do some reading. Here's the only user box on your page:

This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is disallowed from naming particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable.

Who are those "particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable"?

Do you object to the general principle or to the application to particular individuals or groups?
Either way: is it more neutral to object than to support?

[nableezy]

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

It's like people purposely dont read lol. Wild how many of yall have assembled here.

OK. Let's do some reading. Here's the only user box on your page:

This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is disallowed from naming particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable.

Who are those "particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable"?

You do understand what "I didn’t say I was indifferent genius" means, right? It means "I am not indifferent, moron."

But that userbox is about the censorship of unpopular opinions among a group of, largely, white American and European men. The belief that was being censored when that userbox was created by an editor that I wish was still around was that Hezbollah has the right to violently resist aggression and foreign occupation. As do all groups and people. Wild how many of the Free Ukraine crowd seems to think that right is restricted to white Europeans.

[charliemouse]

I didn’t say I was indifferent genius

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

It's like people purposely dont read lol. Wild how many of yall have assembled here.

OK. Let's do some reading. Here's the only user box on your page:

This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties, but due to an alleged consensus he is disallowed from naming particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable.

Who are those "particular individuals or groups which certain administrators find to be unacceptable"?

You do understand what "I didn’t say I was indifferent genius" means, right? It means "I am not indifferent, moron."

But that userbox is about the censorship of unpopular opinions among a group of, largely, white American and European men. The belief that was being censored when that userbox was created by an editor that I wish was still around was that Hezbollah has the right to violently resist aggression and foreign occupation. As do all groups and people. Wild how many of the Free Ukraine crowd seems to think that right is restricted to white Europeans.

So you don't want to name the terrorist groups you support. You mention Hezbollah but put it on someone else's lap. Look, I don't mind that you're an SPA who has only one purpose, which is to push the Palestine cause. I do find your oiliness and evasiveness repulsive.

[nableezy]

So you don't want to name the terrorist groups you support. You mention Hezbollah but put it on someone else's lap. Look, I don't mind that you're an SPA who has only one purpose, which is to push the Palestine cause. I do find your oiliness and evasiveness repulsive.

No genius, because the userbox is about the censorship of unpopular beliefs, not about the specific belief. You either understand this or you don’t but somebody else is going to have to explain it you if not. And if you do understand it, well consider me unimpressed with this fiftieth time of somebody purposely misconstruing what I wrote.

[rnu]

Colorvegan (T-C-L)'s account was registered 15 August 2023 but only started editing today (there are no edits on other wikis either). The first edit was creating a user talk page with the text "Like seriously". The second edit was creating a user page with the text "It’s so obvious".
The third edit was:

Statement by Colorvegan

Just because someone says antisemitic things doesn’t mean they’re antisemitic. Just like just because the contribs of a few of the editors who made statements here shows a history of always pushing for the side of the violent aggressors in the I/P conflict doesn’t mean they’re POV pushing. Nishidani did nothing wrong. Cheers.Colorvegan (talk) 21:23, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

They have been indeffed by ScottishFinnishRadish as NOTHERE.

[tarantino]

So you don't want to name the terrorist groups you support. You mention Hezbollah but put it on someone else's lap. Look, I don't mind that you're an SPA who has only one purpose, which is to push the Palestine cause. I do find your oiliness and evasiveness repulsive.

You best be careful, "Charlie".

[Starship Enterprise]

lol are you still pretending you do anything on wiki other than shill for Palestine

no one is buying it. the shilling isn't even that bad, but this playacting as a neutral party makes you look so sketchy

You need to dial it down, or else tell us who you are on wikipedia so we can judge you too.

you can skim the IP edits if you want

people who use wiki to fight their little race wars don't deserve respect

[charliemouse]

So you don't want to name the terrorist groups you support. You mention Hezbollah but put it on someone else's lap. Look, I don't mind that you're an SPA who has only one purpose, which is to push the Palestine cause. I do find your oiliness and evasiveness repulsive.

You best be careful, "Charlie".

Hey we're just having a chat among friends. Good friends! And if you go back and look, you can see that I was discussing a post by SFR, minding my own business you might say, when Nableezy took umbrage and started insulting. Just go up and look. Not many messages past. So he wanted a conversation and he got one.

[Starship Enterprise]

So many users who edit with Israel Palestine are only there to wage their little war and don't care about being good wiki editors

Israel has its little warriors like Gidonb, Mistamystery, SPECIFICO, TaBaZzz, Ar2332, My very best wishes, BilledMammal, Zanahary, Alaexis, Homerethegreat, Eladkarmel, Longhornsg, Coretheapple, Marokwitz and Drsmoo

Palestine has its little warriors like CarmenEsparzaAmoux, Selfstudier, Trilletrollet, Vice regent, Makeandtoss, WeatherWriter, Kashmiri, WillowCity, C.J. Griffin, Nableezy, Iskandar323, Mhhossein, Nishidani, Onceinawhile and Bastun

Who else am I forgetting? Will the rest of the site ever be able to chase these guys out so they can stop being problems making it harder for real encyclopedia writers to write

[nableezy]

Can a mod split off all the bs from the Drsmoo thread to this so we can combine the bs?

[Elinruby]

I smell oversimplification ( I know, I said simp).

I stay out of the topic area because I despise this kind of post, but I know some of those names from other areas
So apparently they aren't as fixated as Starship seems to think.

[FelinaLavandula]

I would have never thought one of the many pro-Israel POV-pushers on Wikipedia would do such a thing as be dishonest. Truly shocking. And off-topic political PvP at my beautiful wikicriticism site? Such a thing has never been seen!

[utbc]

Israel-Palestine is an old enough issue that at least some of it has to be included in Wikipedia even if there was a shift against covering recent events based on recent news. An editor who knows the area well enough to write about it but remains completely neutral does not exist. Wikipedia has done well enough given the circumstances, by removing the worst actors time to time and giving occassional breaks to the most passionate ones to keep everyone on their toes, but maintain balance of strength on both sides.
Actually, kudos to admins for understanding what's up. One side has editors who think they're fighting for the very existence of their people, and has the backing of the most powerful forces of the current world order. The other side is actually fighting for the very existence of their people. These are not silly disputes. What Wikipedia says matters. It may have a non-insignificant impact on whether one more people disappear from the face of the earth. It's understandable anyone working in that area, training their muscles to smile at whom they identify as agents of destruction of their entire people, sometimes loses their cool.

[Elinruby]

It's pretty ugly alright.

[Elinruby]

Israel-Palestine is an old enough issue that at least some of it has to be included in Wikipedia even if there was a shift against covering recent events based on recent news. An editor who knows the area well enough to write about it but remains completely neutral does not exist. Wikipedia has done well enough given the circumstances, by removing the worst actors time to time and giving occassional breaks to the most passionate ones to keep everyone on their toes, but maintain balance of strength on both sides.
Actually, kudos to admins for understanding what's up. One side has editors who think they're fighting for the very existence of their people, and has the backing of the most powerful forces of the current world order. The other side is actually fighting for the very existence of their people. These are not silly disputes. What Wikipedia says matters. It may have a non-insignificant impact on whether one more people disappear from the face of the earth. It's understandable anyone working in that area, training their muscles to smile at whom they identify as agents of destruction of their entire people, sometimes loses their cool.

This is true. However regardless of everything else the profiling is over the top, and the homoerotic/homophobic slurs are.... unnecessary. Which certain parties may also think is true of some of my remarks, I realize, but my accusations were factual not sexual. I mean geez.

[utbc]

Israel-Palestine is an old enough issue that at least some of it has to be included in Wikipedia even if there was a shift against covering recent events based on recent news. An editor who knows the area well enough to write about it but remains completely neutral does not exist. Wikipedia has done well enough given the circumstances, by removing the worst actors time to time and giving occassional breaks to the most passionate ones to keep everyone on their toes, but maintain balance of strength on both sides.
Actually, kudos to admins for understanding what's up. One side has editors who think they're fighting for the very existence of their people, and has the backing of the most powerful forces of the current world order. The other side is actually fighting for the very existence of their people. These are not silly disputes. What Wikipedia says matters. It may have a non-insignificant impact on whether one more people disappear from the face of the earth. It's understandable anyone working in that area, training their muscles to smile at whom they identify as agents of destruction of their entire people, sometimes loses their cool.

This is true. However regardless of everything else the profiling is over the top, and the homoerotic/homophobic slurs are.... unnecessary. Which certain parties may also think is true of some of my remarks, I realize, but my accusations were factual not sexual. I mean geez.

You talkin' to me? I am lost.

[Elinruby]

Israel-Palestine is an old enough issue that at least some of it has to be included in Wikipedia even if there was a shift against covering recent events based on recent news. An editor who knows the area well enough to write about it but remains completely neutral does not exist. Wikipedia has done well enough given the circumstances, by removing the worst actors time to time and giving occassional breaks to the most passionate ones to keep everyone on their toes, but maintain balance of strength on both sides.
Actually, kudos to admins for understanding what's up. One side has editors who think they're fighting for the very existence of their people, and has the backing of the most powerful forces of the current world order. The other side is actually fighting for the very existence of their people. These are not silly disputes. What Wikipedia says matters. It may have a non-insignificant impact on whether one more people disappear from the face of the earth. It's understandable anyone working in that area, training their muscles to smile at whom they identify as agents of destruction of their entire people, sometimes loses their cool.

This is true. However regardless of everything else the profiling is over the top, and the homoerotic/homophobic slurs are.... unnecessary. Which certain parties may also think is true of some of my remarks, I realize, but my accusations were factual not sexual. I mean geez.

You talkin' to me? I am lost.

I was agreeing with you. That was well stated btw.

But I was saying that even so it's over the top. Some of what I am talking about about anticipated stuff being moved here from "Yet more bad faith allegations by pro-Israel POV pusher Drsmoo", though, which hasn't happened and apparently may not, so no wonder you are confused. My bad.