Ukraine/Russia related revisionist pissing contests

[LargelyRecyclable]

Since Russia invaded Ukraine, I've noticed that quite a few articles are now a battleground for transliteration feuds, historical revisionism, biographical recategorization, and general angst over what and who is Russian or Ukrainian and how these things should be identified and discussed. This has evolved into tortured ledes, weasel words, renaming campaigns, and general shit flinging.

I offer, as an initial article that just came across my radar, Ilya Repin (T-H-L), which is now semi-protected after months of arguing and combative editing. Repin was a Russian painter born in 1844 in the Russian city of Kharkiv, but is now identified as "a Russian painter born in what is now Ukraine" with a pile-on of inline citations.

[Zoll]

It's redundant to mention that he was born in modern day Ukraine because the Infobox already confirms it.

[rnu]

Helmut Schmidt (T-H-L) once said that if it were up to Austrians Hitler would have been born in Germany and Beethoven in Austria.

[JarrBarr]

It's redundant to mention that he was born in modern day Ukraine because the Infobox already confirms it.

While the pile-on is ridiculous, there is already a MOS requirement in biographies to list the date of bIrth and (if relevant) the date of death in text even though it's in the infobox.

[rnu]

It's redundant to mention that he was born in modern day Ukraine because the Infobox already confirms it.

While the pile-on is ridiculous, there is already a MOS requirement in biographies to list the date of bIrth and (if relevant) the date of death in text even though it's in the infobox.

Isn't everything that is in the infobox supposed to be in the article?

[Zoll]

It's redundant to mention that he was born in modern day Ukraine because the Infobox already confirms it.

While the pile-on is ridiculous, there is already a MOS requirement in biographies to list the date of bIrth and (if relevant) the date of death in text even though it's in the infobox.

Isn't everything that is in the infobox supposed to be in the article?

Previous Consensus dictates otherwise. There have been many such border changes throughout history, and for most of them, only the infobox is used, and sometimes the early life section, but rarely the lead.

Simply speaking, Ukraine didn't exist back then, there was a Ukrainian national and cultural identity, but the borders were still very vague, and often overlapped with other countries (claims). Many people in Ukraine also simply considered themselves Russian for all intents and purposes.

[LargelyRecyclable]

lol

Did someone change the spelling of "Kharkov" in my initial post to "Kharkiv" or am I losing my mind?

[LargelyRecyclable]

It's redundant to mention that he was born in modern day Ukraine because the Infobox already confirms it.

Is there actually an MOS that dictates (or suggests) this? There are a ton of bios on that list the place of birth in their native country at time of birth.

For example, Danzig born Alfred Zeidler (T-H-L) is listed in his contemporary form.

But, Holger Czukay (T-H-L) is listed like the like the Repin article.

[AndyTheGrump]

lol

Did someone change the spelling of "Kharkov" in my initial post to "Kharkiv" or am I losing my mind?

Why not both?

[Vigilant]

lol

Did someone change the spelling of "Kharkov" in my initial post to "Kharkiv" or am I losing my mind?

Why not both?

The new and substantially dumber Poetlister is with us.

[Zoll]

It's redundant to mention that he was born in modern day Ukraine because the Infobox already confirms it.

Is there actually an MOS that dictates (or suggests) this? There are a ton of bios on that list the place of birth in their native country at time of birth.

For example, Danzig born Alfred Zeidler (T-H-L) is listed in his contemporary form.

But, Holger Czukay (T-H-L) is listed like the like the Repin article.

The Zeidler infobox probably should be changed to mention the present day. But not the lede. Probably missed it because it's likely a translation from German, which still calls it Danzig. Also, the problem with the Repin article is not that the infobox says Kharkiv/Kharkov is now a part of Ukraine, rather it mentions it in the lede as a "Ukrainian born Russian".

[Midsize Jake]

It's "Kharkiv," this is a publicly-visible thread, and like I stated earlier, you're under a "no stupid shit" restriction.

On the plus side, it seems to be working!

[nableezy]

It's "Kharkiv," this is a publicly-visible thread, and like I stated earlier, you're under a "no stupid shit" restriction.

On the plus side, it seems to be working!

Well it is Kharkiv, but that seems anachronistic in the context if born in 1844 in the Russian city of ... . No doubt our resident Russian agent has his own motives for using the Russian spelling, but I would think this instance of it is at least superficially correct.

[Midsize Jake]

Well it is Kharkiv, but that seems anachronistic in the context if born in 1844 in the Russian city of ... . No doubt our resident Russian agent has his own motives for using the Russian spelling, but I would think this instance of it is at least superficially correct.

You and your #@$%!! logic... Okay, I'll change it back as soon as Russian forces withdraw from the occupied territories.

[LargelyRecyclable]

It's "Kharkiv," this is a publicly-visible thread, and like I stated earlier, you're under a "no stupid shit" restriction.

On the plus side, it seems to be working!

Well it is Kharkiv, but that seems anachronistic in the context if born in 1844 in the Russian city of ... . No doubt our resident Russian agent has his own motives for using the Russian spelling, but I would think this instance of it is at least superficially correct.

It's not really a thing to me and I mostly don't care.

For logged in members, I've explained my position on transliteration here.

Some people choose to get really up in arms over it, which seems silly to me, but that's their prerogative.

[Zoloft]

It's "Kharkiv," this is a publicly-visible thread, and like I stated earlier, you're under a "no stupid shit" restriction.

On the plus side, it seems to be working!

Well it is Kharkiv, but that seems anachronistic in the context if born in 1844 in the Russian city of ... . No doubt our resident Russian agent has his own motives for using the Russian spelling, but I would think this instance of it is at least superficially correct.

It's not really a thing to me and I mostly don't care.

For logged in members, I've explained my position on transliteration here.

Some people choose to get really up in arms over it, which seems silly to me, but that's their prerogative.

I'm planning on making some Chicken Kyiv this weekend, Sunday dinner..

[LargelyRecyclable]

I'm planning on making some Chicken Kyiv this weekend, Sunday dinner..

How dare you.

[LargelyRecyclable]

I was scanning the Basil II (T-H-L) article today when I saw the Vladimir the Great (T-H-L) article linked out and thought of this thread.

Sure enough, it's host to years of fighting over transliteration (Vladimir vs Volodymyr) and whether or not dear old Vlad was "Ukrainian" (he wasn't) or "Russian" (sort of). Interestingly, this particular long running dispute predates the invasion, but is still heavy on Ukro/Ruskie nationalism, although it definitely picked up a lot after Feb of 2022. The dispute includes several move requests and a couple of good emotional meltdowns.

[Zoll]

I was scanning the Basil II (T-H-L) article today when I saw the Vladimir the Great (T-H-L) article linked out and thought of this thread.

Sure enough, it's host to years of fighting over transliteration (Vladimir vs Volodymyr) and whether or not dear old Vlad was "Ukrainian" (he wasn't) or "Russian" (sort of). Interestingly, this particular long running dispute predates the invasion, but is still heavy on Ukro/Ruskie nationalism, although it definitely picked up a lot after Feb of 2022. The dispute includes several move requests and a couple of good emotional meltdowns.

Giving people who lived 1000 years ago in states who's nationality and culture has disintegrated into various countries over time is absurd. It's like calling Charlemagne German purely of the fact he was born in Aachen.

[rnu]

I was scanning the Basil II (T-H-L) article today when I saw the Vladimir the Great (T-H-L) article linked out and thought of this thread.

Sure enough, it's host to years of fighting over transliteration (Vladimir vs Volodymyr) and whether or not dear old Vlad was "Ukrainian" (he wasn't) or "Russian" (sort of). Interestingly, this particular long running dispute predates the invasion, but is still heavy on Ukro/Ruskie nationalism, although it definitely picked up a lot after Feb of 2022. The dispute includes several move requests and a couple of good emotional meltdowns.

Giving people who lived 1000 years ago in states who's nationality and culture has disintegrated into various countries over time is absurd. It's like calling Charlemagne German purely of the fact he was born in Aachen.

Are you kidding? Of course Karl der Große was German! And it is a travesty that the British let the French fool them into using the frenchified version of the Latin name. Also Armin and his German troops kicked the Italians' butts. I mean, what are you going to claim next? That it doesn't make sense to argue over whether Ötzi (T-H-L) was Italian or Austrian?*

[Zoll]

*

Südtirol? 100% pure Austrian territory.

[Zoloft]

I was scanning the Basil II (T-H-L) article today when I saw the Vladimir the Great (T-H-L) article linked out and thought of this thread.

Sure enough, it's host to years of fighting over transliteration (Vladimir vs Volodymyr) and whether or not dear old Vlad was "Ukrainian" (he wasn't) or "Russian" (sort of). Interestingly, this particular long running dispute predates the invasion, but is still heavy on Ukro/Ruskie nationalism, although it definitely picked up a lot after Feb of 2022. The dispute includes several move requests and a couple of good emotional meltdowns.

Giving people who lived 1000 years ago in states who's nationality and culture has disintegrated into various countries over time is absurd. It's like calling Charlemagne German purely of the fact he was born in Aachen.

LargelyRecyclable will not be answering you.

[The Blue Newt]

Are you kidding? Of course Karl der Große was German!

I’ve found using “Big Chuck” tends to reorient that argument pretty quickly.

[Zoloft]

Any objections to my locking this topic?

[rnu]

Are you kidding? Of course Karl der Große was German!

I’ve found using “Big Chuck” tends to reorient that argument pretty quickly.

I can live with "Big Chuck". Beats using the frenchified name.

[Zoll]

Any objections to my locking this topic?

Yes