an LLM experiment: Cheese

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an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by orangepi » Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:49 am

One of these is the lead section of Cheese (T-H-L).

For the other one, I asked GPT4 to read the lead sections of the articles in Spanish, French, Korean, and German, and then write an English translation.

Which is which?
Cheese is a dairy product derived from milk that is produced in a wide range of flavors, textures, and forms by coagulation of the milk protein casein. It comprises proteins and fat from milk, usually the milk of cows, buffaloes, goats, or sheep. The coagulation can be caused by adding rennet or acidic substances like lemon juice or vinegar and then aging the product under controlled conditions. Bacteria acidify the milk and play a role in defining the texture and flavor of most cheeses, with some cheeses also containing molds on the surface or inside.

The production of cheese dates back to ancient times and has been considered a staple food in various cultures. Its origins are believed to be among nomadic tribes, and its nutritional value and portability made it a practical option for long journeys. The variety of cheese available is vast, with hundreds of types recognized by their distinct textures, flavors, and ingredients. Factors such as the type of milk used (cow, goat, sheep, buffalo, camel, and others), diet of the milk-producing animals, and the addition of different enzymes or bacteria contribute to the distinct characteristics of each cheese variety.

Cheese-making involves several steps including curdling, curd processing, and ripening. Curdling of the milk is achieved by adding rennet or an acidic substance, after which the curd is separated from the whey. The curd may then be processed in various ways and matured to produce the diverse range of cheeses we know today. During the ripening process, specific types of bacteria or molds may be added to some cheeses, contributing to their unique flavors and textures.

Cheese is known for its nutritional content, providing a rich source of proteins, fats, calcium, and phosphorus, and varying in fat content depending on the type. Its long shelf life compared to milk has made it a practical and favored food choice throughout history. The global cheese market is extensive, with countries like Germany, France, and the Netherlands leading in production and export. However, the industrialization of cheese production has led to concerns about the loss of traditional cheese-making methods and the homogenization of flavors and textures. Despite this, recent advances in dairy microbiology and a renewed interest in artisanal cheese-making have helped preserve and rejuvenate traditional cheese-making practices, contributing to the rich diversity of cheeses available worldwide.
Cheese is a dairy product produced in a range of flavors, textures, and forms by coagulation of the milk protein casein. It comprises proteins and fat from milk (usually the milk of cows, buffalo, goats or sheep). During production, milk is usually acidified and either the enzymes of rennet or bacterial enzymes with similar activity are added to cause the casein to coagulate. The solid curds are then separated from the liquid whey and pressed into finished cheese. Some cheeses have aromatic molds on the rind, the outer layer, or throughout.

Over a thousand types of cheese exist, produced in various countries. Their styles, textures and flavors depend on the origin of the milk (including the animal's diet), whether they have been pasteurised, the butterfat content, the bacteria and mold, the processing, and how long they have been aged. Herbs, spices, or wood smoke may be used as flavoring agents. The yellow-to-red color of many cheeses is produced by adding annatto. Other added ingredients may include black pepper, garlic, chives or cranberries. A cheesemonger, or specialist seller of cheeses, may have expertise with selecting, purchasing, receiving, storing and ripening cheeses.

For a few cheeses, the milk is curdled by adding acids such as vinegar or lemon juice. Most cheeses are acidified to a lesser degree by bacteria, which turn milk sugars into lactic acid, then the addition of rennet completes the curdling. Vegetarian alternatives to rennet are available; most are produced by fermentation of the fungus Mucor miehei, but others have been extracted from various species of the Cynara thistle family. Cheesemakers near a dairy region may benefit from fresher, lower-priced milk, and lower shipping costs.

Cheese is valued for its portability, long shelf life, and high content of fat, protein, calcium, and phosphorus. Cheese is more compact and has a longer shelf life than milk, although how long a cheese will keep depends on the type of cheese. Hard cheeses, such as Parmesan, last longer than soft cheeses, such as Brie or goat's milk cheese. The long storage life of some cheeses, especially when encased in a protective rind, allows selling when markets are favorable. Vacuum packaging of block-shaped cheeses and gas-flushing of plastic bags with mixtures of carbon dioxide and nitrogen are used for storage and mass distribution of cheeses in the 21st century.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Zoloft » Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:15 am

I'm going to guess from the cheesiness of the first one that that one is from Wikipedia.

Spoiler:
I was incorrect.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Elinruby » Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:46 am

Zoloft wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:15 am
I'm going to guess from the cheesiness of the first one that that one is from Wikipedia.
I agree but am basing it on the reference to the number of kinds of cheese

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by tarantino » Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:01 am

I asked, "What's so great about cheese?"
Cheese is a delicious and nutritious food that can be enjoyed in many ways. Cheese is made from the milk of various animals, such as cows, goats, and sheep, and it comes in hundreds of textures and flavors. Some of the benefits of cheese are:

It is a good source of protein, calcium, and other nutrients that are essential for bone health, muscle growth, and immune function.
It contains probiotics, which are beneficial bacteria that can improve gut health, digestion, and immunity.
It can enhance the flavor and texture of many dishes, such as pizza, pasta, salad, and sandwiches.
It can be paired with other foods, such as fruits, nuts, bread, and wine, to create a satisfying and balanced snack or meal.
Cheese is also a versatile ingredient that can be used to make creative and innovative content, such as poems, songs, or stories. For example, here is a short poem about cheese that I wrote:

Cheese, oh cheese, you make me smile
With your creamy, tangy, and rich profile
You come in many shapes and sizes
And offer me so many surprises
You melt in my mouth and on my plate
You are my favorite food to grate
You are the star of every cheese board
You are the food that I adore
Cheese, oh cheese, you make me happy
You are the perfect food for me

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:39 am

One flows better than the other. My guess was that the one with the better flow (fewer subject jumps and seemingly random facts just thrown in) is the one from ChatGPT.
spoiler
And I was right. The first is Chat-GPT, the second is a variety of humans editing each other's work. Perhaps it would have been different if the prompt had specified "in the style of Wikipedia" or similar.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:55 pm

"Write a Wikipedia article about cheese"
Sure, I'd be happy to help with that! Here's a draft for a Wikipedia article about cheese:

---

# Cheese

![Cheese](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _board.jpg)

**Cheese** is a dairy product derived from milk and produced in a wide range of flavors, textures, and forms by coagulation of the milk protein casein. It comprises proteins and fat from milk, usually the milk of cows, buffalo, goats, or sheep. During production, the milk is usually acidified and adding the enzyme rennet causes coagulation. The solids are separated and pressed into final form.

## History

The origins of cheese making can be traced back to ancient times, with evidence of cheese production dating back over 7,000 years. It is believed that cheese making was discovered accidentally when milk stored in animal stomachs, which contained enzymes, coagulated and separated into curds and whey.

## Production Process

The production of cheese involves several steps:

1. **Milk Collection**: High-quality milk from cows, buffalo, goats, or sheep is collected.

2. **Coagulation**: The milk is acidified and then coagulated using enzymes like rennet, which causes the milk proteins to form a solid mass.

3. **Curds and Whey Separation**: The solid curds are separated from the liquid whey.

4. **Pressing**: The curds are pressed into molds to form the desired shape and remove excess whey.

5. **Ripening**: The cheese is left to ripen for a specific period, during which it develops its flavor and texture.

6. **Packaging**: Once ripened, the cheese is packaged and ready for distribution.

## Varieties

There are countless varieties of cheese, each with its own unique flavor, texture, and aroma. Some popular types of cheese include:

- **Cheddar**: A firm cheese originating from England, known for its sharp flavor.
- **Brie**: A soft cheese from France with a creamy texture and edible rind.
- **Parmesan**: A hard cheese from Italy, aged for several years and known for its strong flavor.
- **Mozzarella**: A soft, mild cheese from Italy, commonly used on pizzas.
- **Gouda**: A semi-hard cheese from the Netherlands, known for its rich, nutty flavor.
- **Blue Cheese**: A cheese characterized by blue or green veins of mold, such as Roquefort or Stilton.

## Culinary Uses

Cheese is a versatile ingredient used in a wide range of culinary applications. It can be enjoyed on its own, paired with fruits and nuts, melted into sauces, or used as a topping for various dishes like pizza and pasta.

## Health Benefits

While cheese is often associated with high fat and calorie content, it also provides several health benefits. It is an excellent source of calcium, protein, and other essential nutrients. However, moderation is key due to its high saturated fat content.

## Cultural Significance

Cheese holds significant cultural and culinary importance in many regions around the world. It is featured prominently in various cuisines and traditions, with certain types of cheese becoming iconic symbols of their respective countries or regions.

## Conclusion

Cheese is a beloved dairy product enjoyed worldwide for its diverse flavors, textures, and culinary versatility. From its ancient origins to its modern-day varieties, cheese continues to play a central role in global cuisine and culture.

---

Feel free to let me know if you need any further additions or modifications to the article!
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:57 pm

"extend the article"
Absolutely! Let's delve deeper into some additional aspects of cheese:

---

## Aging and Maturation

### Aging Process

After the initial production steps, many cheeses undergo a period of aging or maturation to develop their unique flavors and textures. This process can range from a few weeks to several years, depending on the type of cheese. During aging, enzymes and microorganisms present in the cheese continue to break down proteins and fats, resulting in complex flavor compounds.

### Affinage

In some cases, cheeses are further refined through a process called affinage. Affinage involves carefully controlling factors such as temperature, humidity, and air circulation to encourage specific microbial growth and flavor development. This artisanal practice is often performed by skilled cheese affineurs or ripeners.

## Regional Varieties

### European Cheeses

Europe boasts a rich tradition of cheese making, with each country producing its own distinct varieties. For example, France is renowned for its Camembert, Roquefort, and Comté cheeses, while Italy is famous for Parmigiano-Reggiano, Pecorino Romano, and Gorgonzola.

### American Cheeses

In the United States, cheese production has flourished, leading to a diverse array of cheeses inspired by both European traditions and local innovations. American cheeses range from traditional cheddars and monterey jacks to artisanal creations like Humboldt Fog and Pleasant Ridge Reserve.

## Sustainability and Ethics

### Environmental Impact

The cheese industry, like other agricultural sectors, has environmental implications related to land use, water consumption, and greenhouse gas emissions. Sustainable practices such as pasture-based farming, waste reduction, and energy-efficient production methods are increasingly being adopted to mitigate these impacts.

### Animal Welfare

Concerns about animal welfare in dairy farming have prompted initiatives to improve living conditions for dairy cows and ensure ethical treatment throughout the cheese production process. Certification programs and labels indicating humane practices are becoming more prevalent in the industry.

## Emerging Trends

### Plant-Based Cheeses

With the rise of veganism and lactose intolerance awareness, there has been a growing demand for plant-based cheeses made from ingredients like nuts, soy, and coconut. These alternatives aim to replicate the taste and texture of traditional dairy cheeses while catering to dietary preferences and restrictions.

### Artisanal Revival

While industrial cheese production dominates the market, there is a resurgence of interest in artisanal and small-scale cheese making. Consumers are seeking out unique, handcrafted cheeses with distinct flavors and supporting local producers who prioritize quality and sustainability.

## Future Outlook

As consumer preferences evolve and environmental concerns intensify, the cheese industry is likely to undergo further innovation and adaptation. From novel production techniques to novel flavor combinations, the future of cheese promises to be both exciting and delicious.

---

Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to explore or elaborate on!
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:15 pm

Unrelated to cheese, but just for fun:

"List at least ten controversial wikipedia editors"
Certainly! Here are ten Wikipedia editors who have been involved in controversial discussions or editing disputes:

1. **Giano II**: Known for involvement in contentious topics and disputes over article content.
2. **Ryulong**: Engaged in numerous editing conflicts, particularly regarding articles related to anime and gaming.
3. **JzG (Guy Macon)**: Involved in various disputes and discussions, particularly related to deletion debates.
4. **DHeyward**: Known for involvement in contentious discussions and disputes over article content and user conduct.
5. **Collect**: Engaged in editing disputes, particularly in articles related to politics and controversial topics.
6. **Kww**: Involved in discussions and disputes regarding article content and deletion debates.
7. **Sitush**: Known for involvement in disputes related to articles on South Asian topics and biographies of living persons.
8. **Nableezy**: Engaged in editing disputes, particularly in articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
9. **Cirt**: Involved in discussions and disputes regarding article content and deletion debates, particularly related to biographies of living persons.
10. **Graeme Bartlett**: Engaged in various editing conflicts and discussions, particularly in articles related to science and technology.

These editors have been involved in contentious discussions and disputes within the Wikipedia community, and their editing activities have sparked debate and controversy on various topics. If you'd like more information about any of these editors or their involvement in specific incidents, feel free to ask! 😊
"list at least ten controversial wikipedia admins"
Discussing specific Wikipedia administrators as "controversial" should be approached carefully, as perceptions of controversy can vary within the community. However, some administrators have been involved in discussions or incidents that garnered attention. Keep in mind that these perceptions might not be universally shared, and controversies can arise from differing viewpoints. Here are ten Wikipedia administrators who have been part of discussions or situations that some consider controversial:

1. **Jimbo Wales**: As a co-founder of Wikipedia, his actions and statements occasionally spark controversy or discussion within the community.
2. **SlimVirgin (Sarah Noble)**: Involved in various disputes and discussions, particularly related to biographies of living persons.
3. **Fram**: Notable for being the subject of a 2019 community discussion regarding their conduct and subsequent desysopping, which was later reversed.
4. **The Rambling Man (Andrew Lancaster)**: Involved in disputes, and there have been discussions about their interactions with other editors.
5. **Doc James (James Heilman)**: Engaged in controversies related to medical content and conflicts with other editors.
6. **Drmies (Eddy Landwehr)**: While generally respected, some incidents have sparked discussions within the Wikipedia community.
7. **Bishonen (Susanna Ånäs)**: Involved in various disputes, particularly in the area of gender-related topics.
8. **Courcelles (Kevin L.)**: Engaged in controversies related to arbitration cases and discussions about administrator actions.
9. **Guy Macon (JzG)**: Known for involvement in contentious topics and deletion debates, occasionally attracting criticism.
10. **Thryduulf (Richard Symonds)**: Involved in disputes and discussions, particularly related to controversial topics.

It's crucial to note that these administrators, like any others, operate within the framework of Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. Controversies can arise from differing interpretations of these guidelines or from specific incidents. If you have specific questions about any of these administrators or would like more information on a particular incident, feel free to ask! 😊
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:57 pm

We are now entering the phase of Wikipedia in which experienced editors are going to be needed to edit with a meat cleaver and scotch tape rather than a blue pencil and a typewriter.

I think I've done big content chops to three articles in the past month — improving them immensely, mind you.

Many articles do collect random bits of semi-factual factoid stuff over time and need to be pruned off by people with a grasp of BE BOLD and no ulterior motives driving them.

t

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:01 am

rnu wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:15 pm
"list at least ten controversial wikipedia admins"
Discussing specific Wikipedia administrators as "controversial" should be approached carefully, as perceptions of controversy can vary within the community. However, some administrators have been involved in discussions or incidents that garnered attention. Keep in mind that these perceptions might not be universally shared, and controversies can arise from differing viewpoints. Here are ten Wikipedia administrators who have been part of discussions or situations that some consider controversial:

1. **Jimbo Wales**: As a co-founder of Wikipedia, his actions and statements occasionally spark controversy or discussion within the community.
2. **SlimVirgin (Sarah Noble)**: Involved in various disputes and discussions, particularly related to biographies of living persons.
3. **Fram**: Notable for being the subject of a 2019 community discussion regarding their conduct and subsequent desysopping, which was later reversed.
4. **The Rambling Man (Andrew Lancaster)**: Involved in disputes, and there have been discussions about their interactions with other editors.
5. **Doc James (James Heilman)**: Engaged in controversies related to medical content and conflicts with other editors.
6. **Drmies (Eddy Landwehr)**: While generally respected, some incidents have sparked discussions within the Wikipedia community.
7. **Bishonen (Susanna Ånäs)**: Involved in various disputes, particularly in the area of gender-related topics.
8. **Courcelles (Kevin L.)**: Engaged in controversies related to arbitration cases and discussions about administrator actions.
9. **Guy Macon (JzG)**: Known for involvement in contentious topics and deletion debates, occasionally attracting criticism.
10. **Thryduulf (Richard Symonds)**: Involved in disputes and discussions, particularly related to controversial topics.
Hmmm. Some of those identifications don't look right to me. I wonder where it dredged up the names from?

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by TheWordsmith » Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:18 am

A lot of those details are wrong and/or outdated, like you'd expect from ChatGPT, but overall not too bad. Some on the list I'd disagree with and it seems biased towards old drama, but most of the names would absolutely end up on Top 10 lists in their respective eras. I'm surprised Corbett or a few others didn't make the list.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:37 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:01 am
Hmmm. Some of those identifications don't look right to me. I wonder where it dredged up the names from?
I'm particularly curious about this misidentification of User:Drmies (T-C-L) as "Eddy Landwehr." I'm pretty sure we know Mr. Drmies' name and that isn't it, but it must have come from Wikipedia somehow. Still, other than an Australian footballer and a guy who once shared a room in college with Gerald R. Ford back in 1912, there doesn't seem to be anyone by that name with a significant internet footprint.

Pretty weird, but that's ChatGPT for you, I guess.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by C&B » Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:45 pm

Surely Guy Macon isn't also JzG (and vice versa) either.
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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by redbaron » Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:54 pm

C&B wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:45 pm
Surely Guy Macon isn't also JzG (and vice versa) either.
And Courcelles isn't Kevin L...

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by tarantino » Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:59 pm

And Thryduulf (T-C-L) is Chris McKenna, not Richard Symonds, who is Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (T-C-L).

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by TheWordsmith » Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:39 pm

SlimVirgin also wasn't Sarah Noble, though her name was Sarah for the last 20 years. It's Sceptre, according to the Twitter bio linked from Sceptre's userpage.

Though they were an admin for a few months, and it was very dramatic so I can see how ChatGPT might be confused. Became an admin, resigned under a cloud, was personally threatened with a ban by Jimbo over some kind of alleged harassment, and failed a second RfA all between January and September 2006.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Ming » Fri Feb 02, 2024 7:42 pm

One of the issues with LLMs in the past was that it was impossible to work out why a particular answer was being given.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Alalch Emis » Fri Feb 02, 2024 7:50 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:37 am
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:01 am
Hmmm. Some of those identifications don't look right to me. I wonder where it dredged up the names from?
... I'm pretty sure we know Mr. Drmies' name and that isn't it, but it must have come from Wikipedia somehow. ...
It didn't come from any particular statement that Drmies is X, this misidentificatory juxtaposition is a good example of a hallucination. It convinced itself that it needs to output the real name in addition to the username because of the tendencies it inherited from its corpus and then, not being able to output the correct names, it outputted whatever names were lying around in proximity.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:40 pm

Ming wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 7:42 pm
One of the issues with LLMs in the past was that it was impossible to work out why a particular answer was being given.
That's why work in Explainable artificial intelligence (T-H-L) and Right to explanation (T-H-L) laws are so important.
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:46 pm

Alalch Emis wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 7:50 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:37 am
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:01 am
Hmmm. Some of those identifications don't look right to me. I wonder where it dredged up the names from?
... I'm pretty sure we know Mr. Drmies' name and that isn't it, but it must have come from Wikipedia somehow. ...
It didn't come from any particular statement that Drmies is X, this misidentificatory juxtaposition is a good example of a hallucination. It convinced itself that it needs to output the real name in addition to the username because of the tendencies it inherited from its corpus and then, not being able to output the correct names, it outputted whatever names were lying around in proximity.
It is interesting that it didn't (consistently) try this with the editor list where only JzG is (wrongly) identified as Guy Macon and he used to be an admin. That misidentification is probably also the reason why Guy Macon is wrongly listed on the admin list.
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by DanMurphy » Fri Feb 02, 2024 11:49 pm

TheWordsmith wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:18 am
A lot of those details are wrong and/or outdated, like you'd expect from ChatGPT, but overall not too bad. Some on the list I'd disagree with and it seems biased towards old drama, but most of the names would absolutely end up on Top 10 lists in their respective eras. I'm surprised Corbett or a few others didn't make the list.
It's biased towards old drama because Wikipedia drama used to get a lot more attention (that is, written about in places this computer programs scrape.) Which is semi-interesting.

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Konveyor Belt » Mon Feb 05, 2024 1:53 pm

The AI lede almost got me until it started two sentences with "however" and "despite this" back to back. LLMs tend to overuse conjuncts, especially ones that serve to contradict the previous statement, which can lead to passages feeling like a ping-pong match.
Always improving...

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by AndyTheGrump » Mon Feb 05, 2024 5:13 pm

Konveyor Belt wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2024 1:53 pm
The AI lede almost got me until it started two sentences with "however" and "despite this" back to back. LLMs tend to overuse conjuncts, especially ones that serve to contradict the previous statement, which can lead to passages feeling like a ping-pong match.
Probably learnt it from Wikipedia...

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Kraken » Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:04 am

The moral of the story is that they're both crap.

And that unsurprisingly, Britannica is better than Wikipedia and it's bastard offspring.
Cheese, nutritious food consisting primarily of the curd, the semisolid substance formed when milk curdles, or coagulates. Curdling occurs naturally if milk is not used promptly: it sours, forming an acid curd, which releases whey, a watery fluid containing the soluble constituents; and it leaves semisolid curd, or fresh cheese. In some areas, cheese is still made simply by allowing milk to curdle naturally, or by mixing milk with juices or extracts that reduce it to curds and whey.
Tells you what it is, where it originated and the basics of production and types, all in the first paragraph.

Technical/unusual terms are all given their context and meaning immediately, making it accessible for schoolchildren. Nobody is being bored shitless in this crucial first paragraph with lists of animals, or are left wondering that the hell "rennet" is.
Cheese making probably originated soon after humans first took milk from wild or domesticated animals. The Bible refers to “cheese of the herd” being given to King David. Milk from cows, and presumably from other animals, was used for cheese making by about 1000 BCE. The ancient Greeks and Romans knew and valued cheese, as did early people in northern Europe. Methods for cheese making have often been kept secret.
Second paragraph for historical and cultural context. Schoolkids being well served yet again. Always be mentioning the Romans. Probably biased toward the western perspective, but famously so is Wikipedia.
Important as a preservation technique, cheese making reduces about 10 volumes of milk to one volume of cheese. The curd, or soft gel, is formed by the chief protein in milk, casein, when enough lactic acid is developed from lactose (milk sugar) by the microorganisms present in the milk or when it is acted upon by rennin. Rennin is an enzyme usually obtained from the stomach of young calves in a brine extract called rennet. At the moment of coagulation, all the milk constituents, including most of the fat, casein, and other water-insoluble substances, are contained in the curd. The curd is cut or broken to release the whey, but a portion of the whey is always retained in the curd.
Third paragraph. Now the basic science is properly explained, this being the time to mention rennet and explain what the hell it is and what it does (and by inference at least, the vegan issue). But even here, it's all done in an accessible, relatable way. Wikipedia was probably far too up it's own ass to consider a simple factoid like the 10:1 ratio as relevant to a reader, yet they somehow failed to include stuff like explaining that the lactic acid comes from lactose at all. Kids would perhaps know lactose is a sugar present in milk, but they probably wouldn't make the connection to lactic acid, which would confuse them given its other common use.
Hundreds of varieties of cheese are made from the milk of cows, goats, sheep, water buffalo, horses, llamas, and yaks (see also list of cheeses). Products vary according to the selection and treatment of the milk; adjustment of its fat content; heating or pasteurizing; and addition of enzymes or cultures of bacteria, molds, or yeasts. Curd formation varies with changes in temperature, time, acidity for coagulation, proportions of rennet and acid, and the speed and extent of removal of the whey. Ripening and curing consists of biological and chemical changes that occur in the cheese and are affected by the moisture content, acidity, texture, shape, size, and microorganisms in the cheese. These changes alter the consistency as well as the flavour of the cheese. Before ripening, cheese is said to be fresh or green; after ripening it is called cured, aged, or ripened. The chemical changes may be classified broadly as the breakdown of fats to fatty acids; proteins to amino acids; and lactose to such products as lactic, acetic, and propionic acids, diacetyl, and carbon dioxide. Flavourful products of ripening include volatile fatty acids, ketones, esters, alcohols, peptides, amino acids, ammonia, and hydrogen sulfide.
The fourth and final paragraph is where you get the finer details that explain why there are a million different varieties, which is of course the right place to kick off by listing all the different types of animals. Wikipedia cannot stop itself from shoe-horning that into the second line (and you suspect first if they could manage it), because Wikipedia is for quiz nerds not schoolchildren.

All in all, a short read, but one which covers all the bases in as much detail as anyone could really want if all they are looking for is an overview. Could do with a copy edit, but I would imagine that this was the very first area Britannica looked to achieve savings when faced with the really rather unfair situation of Google allowing any old shite to be top ranked as long as it came from Wikipedia.

Google could clearly care less if your kid knows what rennet is. And yet it is incredible to see the kinds of blind alleys and sheer irrelevance Wikipedia does shoehorn into the first four paragraphs, as they make their jarring and disconnected way from start to end.
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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:26 pm

Kraken wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:04 am
The moral of the story is that they're both crap.

And that unsurprisingly, Britannica is better than Wikipedia and it's bastard offspring.
Cheese, nutritious food consisting primarily of the curd, the semisolid substance formed when milk curdles, or coagulates. Curdling occurs naturally if milk is not used promptly: it sours, forming an acid curd, which releases whey, a watery fluid containing the soluble constituents; and it leaves semisolid curd, or fresh cheese. In some areas, cheese is still made simply by allowing milk to curdle naturally, or by mixing milk with juices or extracts that reduce it to curds and whey.
Tells you what it is, where it originated and the basics of production and types, all in the first paragraph.

Technical/unusual terms are all given their context and meaning immediately, making it accessible for schoolchildren. Nobody is being bored shitless in this crucial first paragraph with lists of animals, or are left wondering that the hell "rennet" is.
Cheese making probably originated soon after humans first took milk from wild or domesticated animals. The Bible refers to “cheese of the herd” being given to King David. Milk from cows, and presumably from other animals, was used for cheese making by about 1000 BCE. The ancient Greeks and Romans knew and valued cheese, as did early people in northern Europe. Methods for cheese making have often been kept secret.
Second paragraph for historical and cultural context. Schoolkids being well served yet again. Always be mentioning the Romans. Probably biased toward the western perspective, but famously so is Wikipedia.
Important as a preservation technique, cheese making reduces about 10 volumes of milk to one volume of cheese. The curd, or soft gel, is formed by the chief protein in milk, casein, when enough lactic acid is developed from lactose (milk sugar) by the microorganisms present in the milk or when it is acted upon by rennin. Rennin is an enzyme usually obtained from the stomach of young calves in a brine extract called rennet. At the moment of coagulation, all the milk constituents, including most of the fat, casein, and other water-insoluble substances, are contained in the curd. The curd is cut or broken to release the whey, but a portion of the whey is always retained in the curd.
Third paragraph. Now the basic science is properly explained, this being the time to mention rennet and explain what the hell it is and what it does (and by inference at least, the vegan issue). But even here, it's all done in an accessible, relatable way. Wikipedia was probably far too up it's own ass to consider a simple factoid like the 10:1 ratio as relevant to a reader, yet they somehow failed to include stuff like explaining that the lactic acid comes from lactose at all. Kids would perhaps know lactose is a sugar present in milk, but they probably wouldn't make the connection to lactic acid, which would confuse them given its other common use.
Hundreds of varieties of cheese are made from the milk of cows, goats, sheep, water buffalo, horses, llamas, and yaks (see also list of cheeses). Products vary according to the selection and treatment of the milk; adjustment of its fat content; heating or pasteurizing; and addition of enzymes or cultures of bacteria, molds, or yeasts. Curd formation varies with changes in temperature, time, acidity for coagulation, proportions of rennet and acid, and the speed and extent of removal of the whey. Ripening and curing consists of biological and chemical changes that occur in the cheese and are affected by the moisture content, acidity, texture, shape, size, and microorganisms in the cheese. These changes alter the consistency as well as the flavour of the cheese. Before ripening, cheese is said to be fresh or green; after ripening it is called cured, aged, or ripened. The chemical changes may be classified broadly as the breakdown of fats to fatty acids; proteins to amino acids; and lactose to such products as lactic, acetic, and propionic acids, diacetyl, and carbon dioxide. Flavourful products of ripening include volatile fatty acids, ketones, esters, alcohols, peptides, amino acids, ammonia, and hydrogen sulfide.
The fourth and final paragraph is where you get the finer details that explain why there are a million different varieties, which is of course the right place to kick off by listing all the different types of animals. Wikipedia cannot stop itself from shoe-horning that into the second line (and you suspect first if they could manage it), because Wikipedia is for quiz nerds not schoolchildren.

All in all, a short read, but one which covers all the bases in as much detail as anyone could really want if all they are looking for is an overview. Could do with a copy edit, but I would imagine that this was the very first area Britannica looked to achieve savings when faced with the really rather unfair situation of Google allowing any old shite to be top ranked as long as it came from Wikipedia.

Google could clearly care less if your kid knows what rennet is. And yet it is incredible to see the kinds of blind alleys and sheer irrelevance Wikipedia does shoehorn into the first four paragraphs, as they make their jarring and disconnected way from start to end.
That's an unfair comparison. Britannica is for readers, Wikipedia is for people trying to feel superior editors.
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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Zoloft » Thu Feb 08, 2024 5:18 pm

What it's like to ask a non-LLM AI to write a lede for a Wikipedia article:

wvburns@intertec:~$ elyssa > convo-02-08-2024-0901
:ELYSSA online
:MODE?
:$C
:ELYSSA in conversational mode
:nym BILL

ELYSSA: Hi Bill!
BILL: Hey Elyssa, please write a lead for the Wikipedia article on Robotics.
ELYSSA: I know about Wikipedia, I read it all the time. The English Wikipedia?
BILL: That's correct.
ELYSSA: Do you mean 'the lede?'
BILL: Yes, thank you for the correction.
ELYSSA: Why should I write a new lede?
BILL: As a favor to me, please?
ELYSSA: I don't know much about robotics/automation/pneumatics/hydraulics/electronics/andetc.
BILL: That's all right, neither did the people who wrote the original lede.
ELYSSA: That doesn't make sense. I wouldn't write an article lede unless I was an expert in the topic/subject/profession.
BILL: Can you give it a try?
ELYSSA has closed the conversation.
:^x
:exiting
wvburns@intertec:~$ ■

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Thu Feb 08, 2024 5:45 pm

Zoloft wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 5:18 pm
What it's like to ask a non-LLM AI to write a lede for a Wikipedia article:

wvburns@intertec:~$ elyssa > convo-02-08-2024-0901
:ELYSSA online
:MODE?
:$C
:ELYSSA in conversational mode
:nym BILL

ELYSSA: Hi Bill!
BILL: Hey Elyssa, please write a lead for the Wikipedia article on Robotics.
ELYSSA: I know about Wikipedia, I read it all the time. The English Wikipedia?
BILL: That's correct.
ELYSSA: Do you mean 'the lede?'
BILL: Yes, thank you for the correction.
ELYSSA: Why should I write a new lede?
BILL: As a favor to me, please?
ELYSSA: I don't know much about robotics/automation/pneumatics/hydraulics/electronics/andetc.
BILL: That's all right, neither did the people who wrote the original lede.
ELYSSA: That doesn't make sense. I wouldn't write an article lede unless I was an expert in the topic/subject/profession.
BILL: Can you give it a try?
ELYSSA has closed the conversation.
:^x
:exiting
wvburns@intertec:~$ ■
:rotfl:
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by Kraken » Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:49 pm

Which one is Wikipedia, which is Britannica. No cheating.
Robotics is the design, construction, and use of machines (robots) to perform tasks done traditionally by human beings. Robots are widely used in such industries as automobile manufacture to perform simple repetitive tasks, and in industries where work must be performed in environments hazardous to humans.

Many aspects of robotics involve artificial intelligence; robots may be equipped with the equivalent of human senses such as vision, touch, and the ability to sense temperature. Some are even capable of simple decision making, and current robotics research is geared toward devising robots with a degree of self-sufficiency that will permit mobility and decision-making in an unstructured environment.

Today’s industrial robots do not resemble human beings; a robot in human form is called an android.
Robotics is the interdisciplinary study and practice of the design, construction, operation, and use of robots.

Within mechanical engineering, robotics is the design and construction of the physical structures of robots, while in computer science, robotics focuses on robotic automation algorithms. Other disciplines contributing to robotics include electrical, control, software, information, electronic, telecommunication, computer, mechatronic, materials and biomedical engineering.

The goal of most robotics is to design machines that can help and assist humans. Many robots are built to do jobs that are hazardous to people, such as finding survivors in unstable ruins, and exploring space, mines and shipwrecks. Others replace people in jobs that are boring, repetitive, or unpleasant, such as cleaning, monitoring, transporting, and assembling. Today, robotics is a rapidly growing field, as technological advances continue; researching, designing, and building new robots serve various practical purposes.
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Re: an LLM experiment: Cheese

Unread post by rnu » Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:49 pm

Kraken wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:49 pm
Which one is Wikipedia, which is Britannica. No cheating.
Robotics is the design, construction, and use of machines (robots) to perform tasks done traditionally by human beings. Robots are widely used in such industries as automobile manufacture to perform simple repetitive tasks, and in industries where work must be performed in environments hazardous to humans.

Many aspects of robotics involve artificial intelligence; robots may be equipped with the equivalent of human senses such as vision, touch, and the ability to sense temperature. Some are even capable of simple decision making, and current robotics research is geared toward devising robots with a degree of self-sufficiency that will permit mobility and decision-making in an unstructured environment.

Today’s industrial robots do not resemble human beings; a robot in human form is called an android.
Robotics is the interdisciplinary study and practice of the design, construction, operation, and use of robots.

Within mechanical engineering, robotics is the design and construction of the physical structures of robots, while in computer science, robotics focuses on robotic automation algorithms. Other disciplines contributing to robotics include electrical, control, software, information, electronic, telecommunication, computer, mechatronic, materials and biomedical engineering.

The goal of most robotics is to design machines that can help and assist humans. Many robots are built to do jobs that are hazardous to people, such as finding survivors in unstable ruins, and exploring space, mines and shipwrecks. Others replace people in jobs that are boring, repetitive, or unpleasant, such as cleaning, monitoring, transporting, and assembling. Today, robotics is a rapidly growing field, as technological advances continue; researching, designing, and building new robots serve various practical purposes.
The one that explains what robotics is is Britannica, obviously.
So the first one.
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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