Presenting the history: cultural bias on music pages

[wyldboutit]

This is me attempting to highlight a persistent trend of anti-American “deletionism”, and pro-British/anti-American POV-pushing on many of the music pages that exist on Wikipedia.

Common themes:

- The US being deleted from “cultural origins” sections of summary templates in the lede

- Even though these are deletions of long-standing material, the deletions are usually upheld

- Double standards; In order to establish or even re-establish an edit including the United States, a source must be provided. However, this doesn’t appear to be the case vis a vis the United Kingdom, and, to a certain extent, other countries. At the same time, talk page usage is usually not necessary if one wants to delete the US from the page, or if someone wants to add the UK.

- Edits by IPs and Sockpuppets are upheld when they conform to the bias that supports the downplaying or “writing-out” of US involvement in music, and the boosting of British involvement

- Binksternet/FMSky are heavily involved, often acting as the sole party responsible for the establishment of deletions and edits that push an anti-US/pro-UK perspective

- Accusations of sockpuppetry are often involved, presenting a convenient excuse to stigmatize any correction of the anti-US edits. They’re obviously “banning a POV they dislike”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:9STEPS

- As a personal note, many of the music and culture pages on Wikipedia are written from a British POV, even when this POV is unjustified

I present diffs-

Heavy metal music:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /981116000

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? ... =939314013

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /976312963

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /936529561

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /939004319

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? ... 1074474647

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /792813146

Indie rock:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /998215740

Stereotypes of the British:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:St ... ish_people

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? ... =911338469

Music

British music is often seen as being better than American music[12], including the best rock bands.[13]

(Sources cited: a social media post by an American, as reported on by mirror.co.uk)

Shock rock:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /984229267

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /939192826

AC Armstrong edit and sockpuppet confirmation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... /817644158

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? ... ction=view

Stoner rock:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1123317529

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1119989930

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1125532171

Electronic rock:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1160649524

(note: the United Kingdom is added as a cultural originator to tons of genre pages, regardless of whether the information is sourced or not)

List of Heavy metal bands:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1154670328

(Double standard: reverting American bands, most of which are obviously metal groups, for being “unsourced”, even while allowing the unsourced addition of bands from other countries, most notably the UK)

Crossover thrash:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1097696721

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1097696690

(Tries to appropriate Crossover Thrash to the UK by naming a Crust Punk band. Deletes an attempt to properly categorize it.)

Progressive rock:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? ... 1191031709

(FMSky ends the interaction by saying: “Yes, its basically the same as in heavy metal. UK invented it, US was quick to copy it --FMSky (talk) 04:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)”)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1188803071

(Deletes long-standing edit)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1198466092

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1198465845

(Binksternet deletes my old response on the talk page, for some reason)

New wave music:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1195778770

(More anti-American/pro-British POV-pushing; deletion of long-standing edit)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1198463517

(Upholds IP edit)

[Ron Lybonly]

I’ve noticed some mildly pro-British, anti-American writing in military history articles where the 2 countries fought as allies. Not even anti-American, more that it was the British that got it right vs. the mediocre Yanks.

Every article is different.

[Zoll]

Take it up with WP:ANI (T-H-L)

[wyldboutit]

I’ve noticed some mildly pro-British, anti-American writing in military history articles where the 2 countries fought as allies. Not even anti-American, more that it was the British that got it right vs. the mediocre Yanks.

Every article is different.

That’s interesting. I’m wondering if there isn’t, especially in regards to culture, a broader phenomenon of anti-Americanism that promotes a lot of what I’ve seen.

I’ve recently come across a thread on a music forum where British users were whining that British music didn’t get enough credit in the 90s, and when one Greek user dared to say “American rock music was much better in the 90s”, the British posters responded in a very belligerent way, to the tune of tons of likes.

I’ve also noticed a lot of posts on the likes of Reddit and Quora that specifically slag off “American music” while asserting that British music is “so much better” (these people get argued with to varying degrees).

This kind of thing is probably bleeding over to Wikipedia

[JarrBarr]

Take it up with WP:ANI (T-H-L)

They can't do that bc they were banned. And proxying for banned users other than to post their ban appeal isn't gonna work.

So I guess if you want to repost it, do it at your own peril and if you can stand by the arguments presented

[wyldboutit]

Take it up with WP:ANI (T-H-L)

I can’t personally do that right now.

My end goal is ultimately to get the most recent instances of anti-US deletionism reverted (in regards to the Progressive rock and New wave pages). I’d love it if I or somebody else could bring this trend to the attention of the administrators.

[Zoloft]

Take it up with WP:ANI (T-H-L)

I can’t personally do that right now.

My end goal is ultimately to get the most recent instances of anti-US deletionism reverted (in regards to the Progressive rock and New wave pages). I’d love it if I or somebody else could bring this trend to the attention of the administrators.

Only the passage of time may heal this possible misattribution.

[wyldboutit]

Take it up with WP:ANI (T-H-L)

I can’t personally do that right now.

My end goal is ultimately to get the most recent instances of anti-US deletionism reverted (in regards to the Progressive rock and New wave pages). I’d love it if I or somebody else could bring this trend to the attention of the administrators.

Only the passage of time may heal this possible misattribution.

Sorry, could you clarify this a bit more?

[greyed.out.fields]

This is probably as good a time as any to take up where I left off in 2015. link <clears throat>


The China of classical antiquity invented, inter alia, writing, paper and public service graduate entry programs*, which were then taken up by the surrounding kingdoms in what we would now call the the CJKV/CJK sprachbund (T-H-L).

Just to go back a little here for some background: what you are reading now is written in what is called Latin script. (T-H-L) It is used in a lot of languages that are related: think of flower in English, fleur in French, Blume in German and bloom in English. These languages have a common ancestor, like bears, wolves and seals do: as a practical example, have a look at your (if available) Labrador dog's nose and then look at the pictures in Carnivora (T-H-L).

Latin script is also used in languages that aren't related to English, like Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish. And now back to Korean and Vietnamese: see how the Wikipedia article CJKV (T-H-L) redirects to CJK characters (T-H-L)? Like Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish are written in Latin script, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese used to be written entirely in Chinese characters. What they do share is a lot of vocabulary taken from Chinese.

Historically in Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese, "China" would be written, respectively, as 中國, 中國, 中國, and 中國, though the pronunciations would have been different. The modern day pronunciations are (written in adaptions of Latin script) Zhōngguó**, Trung Quốc***, Jung-gug and Chūgoku. (Sound similar, don't they? But they were borrowed from Chinese; there aren't "cognates" like flower/fleur/Blume/bloom are related to each other, like bears, wolves and seals.)

And so, this is where names come in.... and I have some errands to run, I'll get back to this soon.


*謝謝.
**Apologies to the 粤-branch speakers for the pinyin only, I can hardly get my head around four tones, etc
***All those tones! All those different vowels!

[Giraffe Stapler]

New wave music:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1195778770

(More anti-American/pro-British POV-pushing; deletion of long-standing edit)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1198463517

(Upholds IP edit)

I think you were complaining about New wave music in the other thread, so let's start with that. Make your case. Why should the origins of New Wave include the US?

(I will say that I think this particular sentence from the article should be in the lede, in bold letters: "The term "new wave" is regarded as so loose and wide-ranging as to be 'virtually meaningless', according to the New Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock" but I feel that way about most attempts to categorize pop music genres. They are useful as shorthand for discussing loose, general similarities but break down very quickly if you get too specific.)

[wyldboutit]

New wave music:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1195778770

(More anti-American/pro-British POV-pushing; deletion of long-standing edit)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special ... 1198463517

(Upholds IP edit)

I think you were complaining about New wave music in the other thread, so let's start with that. Make your case. Why should the origins of New Wave include the US?

(I will say that I think this particular sentence from the article should be in the lede, in bold letters: "The term "new wave" is regarded as so loose and wide-ranging as to be 'virtually meaningless', according to the New Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock" but I feel that way about most attempts to categorize pop music genres. They are useful as shorthand for discussing loose, general similarities but break down very quickly if you get too specific.)

I’ll just repost what was written in the deleted Talk Page category:

The article contains ample reference to numerous American acts as originators of the style or term:

The Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop, The Cars, New York Dolls, Talking Heads, Blondie, Mink DeVille, bands from the Ohio proto-punk scene, including Devo, The Electric Eels, Rocket from the Tombs, and Pere Ubu, Suicide, The Modern Lovers, and Television

The pictures in the article depict 3 American bands - Blondie, Talking Heads, and Devo, all of which formed in the early-to-mid 70s.

Multiple paragraphs in the article describe how it was variously used to describe different sounds by the American music market throughout the 70s, both homegrown and British.

There are a number of sources online that echo the Wikipedia page’s mention of the U.S., and particularly New York, as an originating location of the style, including articles written from a British perspective:


https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/blondie-explain-new-wave/

https://www.vulture.com/2020/10/how-new ... -wave.html

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/ne ... usic-guide

A Brief History of New Wave Music
The term "new wave" is largely associated with music critics, not the musicians themselves. It first appeared in music reviews of The Velvet Underground and New York Dolls in the early 1970s. New wave bands of the ‘70s were largely driven by guitars, owing much influence to rockers like David Bowie and Lou Reed.

Multiple signifiers: Other 1970s groups like Television and The Modern Lovers were considered both punk and new wave. Ultimately, the punk moniker would be pasted more consistently on indie rockers like the Germs and X, while new wave groups cracked the popular music charts.
New York and London HQ: Two epicenters of new wave music in the late 1970s were London—home of the pub rock scene as well as Elvis Costello, Nick Lowe, The Pretenders, and The Psychedelic Furs—and New York City, where the nightclub CBGB hosted countless shows by Blondie and Talking Heads. Other new wave hubs included Athens, Georgia (home of The B-52s), Boston (where The Cars originated), Los Angeles (where The Knack and Oingo Boingo formed), and northeast Ohio (the birthplace of Devo)

You can go back to my now-closed thread to access the other highlights from the Wiki page that reference the American scene. 3 of the 4 pictures in the article are of American New Wave groups.

There’s really no argument against including the U.S. The only one I’ve seen is the bland “New Wave originated in the UK” claim that one British IP made upon removing the U.S. from the cultural origins section.

These people seem to be eliding New wave and Synth-pop, two styles with a reasonable amount of overlap - Synth-pop was more exclusively British. New wave was not. Notice how I haven’t tried to add the U.S. (or delete the UK) from the “Synth-pop” page.

[Dan of La Mancha]

The New wave music (T-H-L) article definitely has problems.

The "Characteristics" section says: "As new wave originated in Britain, many of the first new wave artists were British." This is sourced to a 1983 Rolling Stone article which says new wave "can be said to have originated in the U.K. around 1977."

Lower down, in the "Early 1970s" section, there's an unsourced claim that the term originated in Britain, and then it says: "As early as 1973, critics including Nick Kent and Dave Marsh were using the term 'new wave' to classify New York–based groups such as the Velvet Underground and New York Dolls." This is sourced to Theo Cateforis (2011), Are We Not New Wave?, p. 20:

As early as 1973, music critics like Nick Kent and Dave Marsh began applying the new wave tag to a variety of New York groups who would prove influential to the punk explosion, most notably the older 1960s avant-garde rock of the Velvet Underground and the up-and-coming glam and glitter of the New York Dolls. In 1975, toward the end of the Dolls' volatile and short-lived career, the band enlisted Malcolm McLaren, the owner of a British fetish fashion store called SEX, to act as its de facto manager. McLaren [...] spoke excitedly of their future as "the new wave of rock'n'roll." The band soon fell apart, however, and McLaren returned to England to manage his shop, where his attention soon turned to the formation of a new group that he would manage under the moniker of the Sex Pistols.

McLaren's experience with the New York Dolls would have a profound effect on his conception of the Sex Pistols. Sounds journalist Jonh Ingham recalls that in early 1976, before the Sex Pistols had even recorded a note, McLaren insisted that the music be called new wave. The label held and by the fall of 1976 influential British punk fanzines [...] were constantly referring to a "new wave" centered on the activities of the Sex Pistols, the Clash, and other punk bands. Back in the United States, one of the first punk-oriented magazines, New York Rocker, began using the new wave label as well with some regularity in late 1976, in reference to the cluster of New York bands and artists such as Television, Blondie, Patti Smith and the Ramones.

So it appears that the term "new wave" was popularized in Britain but originated in the US.

However – wyldboutit, if you're right that there is a systemic anti-American bias in music genre articles, your approach to fixing the problem is very unlikely to get results. Edits by confirmed sockpuppets can and will be automatically reverted regardless of their merits, and nobody is going to take up the fight on your behalf as long as you remain banned from Wikipedia.

It appears you've been waging this war since at least 2019 (link, link), with nothing much to show for it. I think if you exercised a little patience and did things by the book, you'd come much closer to achieving your goals. Refrain from socking for 6-12 months; request an unblock of your original account (see the guidance here and here); and if you're unblocked, you can do what you should have done to begin with and calmly discuss the issue on the relevant talk pages. It's possible that this will also come to nothing, but I think it's your best chance of bringing about the changes you wish to make.

(Alternatively, convince a major media outlet to write an article on Wikipedia's anti-American bias; this will draw people's attention to the problem and allow them to do something about it without being accused of proxying for a banned user.)

[Giraffe Stapler]

So it appears that the term "new wave" was popularized in Britain but originated in the US.

This is one of my problems with the Wikipedia article and this particular tempest in a teapot - "new wave" is a common phrase to refer to a new thing. If something musical is called "a new wave" or "the new wave" it doesn't mean that it is "new wave". It is ridiculous to retroactively place the New York Dolls in the "new wave" category because someone used the phrase (not the classification) to refer to them. The New York Dolls are now often thrown into the "punk" pigeonhole, although they certainly would not have been when the phrase was coined.

In 1967, Life magazine said:

And "new wave" musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Carles Mingus have browken all the rules of harmony and rhythm...

.
There's a 1965 album called "The New Wave in Jazz" with the top names in what was then avant garde jazz. The point is that the phrase was floating around and had already been attached to music. It's pointless to say term originated in the US unless it is associated the particular style of music now called new wave.

[Dan of La Mancha]

So it appears that the term "new wave" was popularized in Britain but originated in the US.

This is one of my problems with the Wikipedia article and this particular tempest in a teapot - "new wave" is a common phrase to refer to a new thing. If something musical is called "a new wave" or "the new wave" it doesn't mean that it is "new wave". It is ridiculous to retroactively place the New York Dolls in the "new wave" category because someone used the phrase (not the classification) to refer to them. The New York Dolls are now often thrown into the "punk" pigeonhole, although they certainly would not have been when the phrase was coined.

In 1967, Life magazine said:

And "new wave" musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Carles Mingus have browken all the rules of harmony and rhythm...

.
There's a 1965 album called "The New Wave in Jazz" with the top names in what was then avant garde jazz. The point is that the phrase was floating around and had already been attached to music. It's pointless to say term originated in the US unless it is associated the particular style of music now called new wave.

I understand where you're coming from, and if it were simply a coincidence that the term was appearing in the British and American press at the same time I'd agree with you; but the source I quoted above describes a clear continuity between the use of the term in the American press and its later application to British bands. So I think it makes sense to trace the origins of the phenomenon back at least that far, notwithstanding that many of the bands originally labelled "new wave" (both in Britain and America) would not be categorized as such today.

[Bezdomni]

In 1967, Life magazine said:

And "new wave" musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Carles Mingus have browken all the rules of harmony and rhythm...

Is Carla Hawkins on your wavering ol' mind, Giraffe?

jazz is dead

Now, even Manchester, Bristol, and Swansea have festivals. Surely they should be mentioned
in the obituary of jazz (T-H-L).

[Giraffe Stapler]

In 1967, Life magazine said:

And "new wave" musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Carles Mingus have browken all the rules of harmony and rhythm...

Is Carla Hawkins on your wavering ol' mind, Giraffe?

Jazz is dead.

Now, even Manchester, Bristol, and Swansea have festivals. Surely they should be mentioned in jazz (T-H-L).

Carla Bley, perhaps. Or is Coleman Hawkins on your mind?

[Bezdomni]

No, more the Stapler singers really, but I don't suppose the Islanders are staking out soul music#British (T-H-L).

I'm having trouble getting riled up about this issue... when are we going to hear more about those lovely

tonic nasal vowels

?

[Giraffe Stapler]

So it appears that the term "new wave" was popularized in Britain but originated in the US.

This is one of my problems with the Wikipedia article and this particular tempest in a teapot - "new wave" is a common phrase to refer to a new thing. If something musical is called "a new wave" or "the new wave" it doesn't mean that it is "new wave". It is ridiculous to retroactively place the New York Dolls in the "new wave" category because someone used the phrase (not the classification) to refer to them. The New York Dolls are now often thrown into the "punk" pigeonhole, although they certainly would not have been when the phrase was coined.

In 1967, Life magazine said:

And "new wave" musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Carles Mingus have browken all the rules of harmony and rhythm...

.
There's a 1965 album called "The New Wave in Jazz" with the top names in what was then avant garde jazz. The point is that the phrase was floating around and had already been attached to music. It's pointless to say term originated in the US unless it is associated the particular style of music now called new wave.

I understand where you're coming from, and if it were simply a coincidence that the term was appearing in the British and American press at the same time I'd agree with you; but the source I quoted above describes a clear continuity between the use of the term in the American press and its later application to British bands. So I think it makes sense to trace the origins of the phenomenon back at least that far, notwithstanding that many of the bands originally labelled "new wave" (both in Britain and America) would not be categorized as such today.

That's a pretty big "notwithstanding", though. If what is now commonly called "punk" (which I would probably call "first wave punk") was then called "new wave" then it's not really the same thing, is it? But there is a very important sentence at the beginning of that same passage: "To locate the exact first usages of the label new wave as part of the mid-70s punk explosion is a near impossible task". The truth is that the label has not been consistently applied to the same thing and different critics had different interpretations of the term during the same time period. I'm not sure that's worth noting in an encyclopedia, but it does help explain why the Wikipedia article is so jumbled.

As far as the UK/US thing goes, I think it's obvious that new wave (as we now understand it) didn't happen in any one place but happened in both the US and UK at around the same time. On the other hand, wyldboutit hasn't really offered more than weak sources to make their claim. (Hint: find scholarly works, not overviews written on Masterclass by an intern.) I wouldn't waste my time arguing about something like that on Wikipedia because it's literally a waste of effort. Some genre warrior will just change it again. I might take a run at getting Schlager and Krautrock removed as "stylistic origins" of Neue Deutsche Welle (T-H-L), but I probably won't bother. I learned long ago that most of the music genre articles on Wikipedia are terrible and not worth fixing.

[Bezdomni]

Meanwhile,

the Canadians are too polite or possibly too proud to remember to argue

[Mason]

I was curious to see what Encyclopædia Brittanica had to say about it.

The “key people” they list in the infobox are Elvis Costello and David Byrne.

The lead image is Devo.

Make of that what you will.

[Ritchie333]

I see people arguing about opinions, especially on musical genres, on music article infoboxes day in, day out.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

Just had a look at the Heavy Metal article... cringey nonsense, like all popular music genre articles.

[ArmasRebane]

So it appears that the term "new wave" was popularized in Britain but originated in the US.

This is one of my problems with the Wikipedia article and this particular tempest in a teapot - "new wave" is a common phrase to refer to a new thing. If something musical is called "a new wave" or "the new wave" it doesn't mean that it is "new wave". It is ridiculous to retroactively place the New York Dolls in the "new wave" category because someone used the phrase (not the classification) to refer to them. The New York Dolls are now often thrown into the "punk" pigeonhole, although they certainly would not have been when the phrase was coined.

In 1967, Life magazine said:

And "new wave" musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Carles Mingus have browken all the rules of harmony and rhythm...

.
There's a 1965 album called "The New Wave in Jazz" with the top names in what was then avant garde jazz. The point is that the phrase was floating around and had already been attached to music. It's pointless to say term originated in the US unless it is associated the particular style of music now called new wave.

Yep, part of the problem here is that it's just a descriptor for an emerging trend, not just the music genre. There's similar issues with other art trends, like Art Deco (T-H-L), where you aren't going to find anything from the time period calling it hat—it was only formally described as its own style and given the name more than 20 years after it stopped being A Thing. When it was being built it was just "modern art" or "modern architecture", which isn't what we are thinking of these days when you say either term.

And this also speaks to the dumb idea to use an early 1980s magazine article to try and place it as starting in the UK. That's the kind of statement that really should be using the best scholarship from now to properly contextualize the information.

Music articles on Wikipedia are pretty bad, but that's not surprising given that music journalism has never been particularly good (witness all the dumb sub-sub-sub-sub-genres that acts get placed into. Wikipedia could never write a good article on something like Black metal (T-H-L) because there's no great scholarly sources for most of it.)

[wyldboutit]

Ladies and gentleman, FMSky strikes again, with more nonsensical anti-American deletionism on the music pages, this time on Power metal.

On January 17th, FMSky made this edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1196522112

...silently, and without explanation.

This is on a page that says the following:

The term was first used in the mid-1980s[3] and refers to two different but related styles:

the first pioneered and largely practiced in North America with a harder sound similar to speed metal;
a later, more widespread and popular style based in Europe[4] with a lighter, more melodic sound and frequent use of keyboards.

Anthropologist Sam Dunn traced the origins of power metal back to the late 1970s, when the groundwork for power metal lyrical style was laid down by Ronnie James Dio. The fantasy-oriented lyrics he wrote for Rainbow, concentrated around medieval, renaissance, folk, and science fiction themes, directly influenced modern power metal bands.[5] According to Dunn, the songs "Stargazer" and "A Light in the Black" from the 1976 album Rising, as well as "Kill the King" and "Lady of the Lake" from the 1978 album Long Live Rock 'n' Roll, might be among the earliest examples of power metal. In his 2011 documentary series Metal Evolution,[6] Dunn further explained how Rob Halford of Judas Priest created a blueprint for power metal vocal delivery. His almost constant high-pitched singing became one of the main characteristics of power metal. The twin-guitar sound promoted by Judas Priest's duo of K. K. Downing and Glenn Tipton also highly influenced this subgenre. Another pioneer in the power metal genre is Jon Mikl Thor, who was a strong inspiration to the American band Manowar.

Another British band, Iron Maiden, brought epic and melodic sensibility to metal, creating anthemic, singalong music, an approach widely embraced by modern power metal musicians. The emergence of the early German power-metal scene in particular was made possible by Scorpions and Accept. Swedish guitarist Yngwie Malmsteen made a significant impact on many future power metal guitarists, with his accurate and fast neo-classical style. His bandmate Jens Johansson modernized the keyboard sound of Deep Purple's Jon Lord, which was further incorporated into the genre. Manowar's mythological sword and sorcery lyrics influenced a number of power metal bands.

Throughout the early 1980s especially in the years 1982 and 1983, a US power metal style first emerged from traditional heavy metal, the new wave of British heavy metal (NWOBHM), and thrash/speed metal influences. The exact first origin is often contested, but bands such as Cirith Ungol, Jag Panzer, Manilla Road, Omen, Riot, Savatage, and Warlord are thought to have influenced the earliest development of the style.[7][8]

Could I request that someone revert this edit? I have no history of editing this page.

[ltbdl]

oh my god

no one is going to edit anything for you

[wyldboutit]

oh my god

no one is going to edit anything for you

This user made an edit that contradicts the sources provided and the information that is explicitly spelled out on the page, in a recurring trend of anti-American deletionism/POV-pushing on the music pages, that he is almost exclusively responsible for.

I never made an edit on this page. All I'm suggesting is that the edit needs to be reverted. It's also not unimportant, given that the music genre pages are probably chiefly used for verification of basic facts like this.

I'm not sure why we're supposed to let the same guy run around to every music genre page he can, deleting "the United States" from summary templates for no reason, against the content of the article.

[ltbdl]

oh my god

no one is going to edit anything for you

This user made an edit that contradicts the sources provided and the information that is explicitly spelled out on the page, in a recurring trend of anti-American deletionism/POV-pushing on the music pages, that he is almost exclusively responsible for.

I never made an edit on this page. All I'm suggesting is that the edit needs to be reverted. It's also not unimportant, given that the music genre pages are probably chiefly used for verification of basic facts like this.

I'm not sure why we're supposed to let the same guy run around to every music genre page he can, deleting "the United States" from summary templates for no reason, against the content of the article.

doesn't change my point

[Midsize Jake]

doesn't change my point

Well, let's be clear on this. Your point was "nobody is going to do it," but the problem isn't that nobody is going to do it, the problem is that anyone who does it will be accused of being Mr. Wylaboutit's "meat puppet" or "sock puppet," and what should be a no-brainer revert of an obviously biased and unsupported assertion (i.e., that power metal originated only in Europe) will survive indefinitely, anyone with a brain who reads it will think Wikipedia is full of idiots, and they'll be right.

So, as much as we don't like it, he's right — it has to be done by someone who is not only an established, and preferably respected, Wikipedia user — but one who also has a brain, and is actually willing to deal with these people over the long term. Can anyone here think of someone like that? Or even imagine one? I can't.

[Randy from Boise]

I think you were complaining about New wave music in the other thread, so let's start with that. Make your case. Why should the origins of New Wave include the US?

Why would it not? It seems axiomatic.

#MC5 #New York Dolls #Iggy Pop and the Stooges #Ramones #New York Scene blah blah blah

Anybody trying to write that shit out of the picture is grinding an axe.


t

[Giraffe Stapler]

I think you were complaining about New wave music in the other thread, so let's start with that. Make your case. Why should the origins of New Wave include the US?

Why would it not? It seems axiomatic.

#MC5 #New York Dolls #Iggy Pop and the Stooges #Ramones #New York Scene blah blah blah

Anybody trying to write that shit out of the picture is grinding an axe.


t

I don't know what "axiomatic" means, but I'm going to guess from context that it refers to a pointless argument with someone who hasn't read all of the posts in this thread.

[Boing! said Zebedee]

I don't know what "axiomatic" means, but I'm going to guess from context that it refers to a pointless argument with someone who hasn't read all of the posts in this thread.

Axiomatic means self-evident.

[rnu]

I don't know what "axiomatic" means, but I'm going to guess from context that it refers to a pointless argument with someone who hasn't read all of the posts in this thread.

Axiomatic means self-evident.

[Midsize Jake]

I don't know what "axiomatic" means, but I'm going to guess from context that it refers to a pointless argument with someone who hasn't read all of the posts in this thread.

I've read them all, but I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Mr. Boise in this case, and not just because Mr. Boise has genuine real-world bona fides in this area (more so than I do). I would say it's not only axiomatic, it's fundamentally axiomatic. I might even go so far as to say the notion that the burden of proof should rest on someone trying to "prove" this is absolutely absurd.

[AndyTheGrump]

If the Ramones were new wave, what the heck was punk?

[Midsize Jake]

If the Ramones were new wave, what the heck was punk?

The Ramones were a punk band whose record company, Sire, tried to sell them as "new wave" and largely failed, because after 5 years on the scene they were just too closely associated with the (now "old-school") punk genre.

"New Wave" was always more of an applied label for marketing purposes, because at least in the USA, the target demographic had been too heavily conditioned into thinking of punks as "weirdos" and "freaks." And to be fair, there were probably more good bands lumped under that label from the UK than from the USA, but that doesn't change the fact that it was happening in both countries concurrently, not to mention that the US market was much larger and more socially diverse, almost by definition.

I don't have a Master's Degree in this subject though, so this should be taken as more of an informed opinion based on having actually lived it to some degree.

[Catfish Jim & spd]

If the Ramones were new wave, what the heck was punk?

I've always hated this dumb need people have to over-categorise music.

[tarantino]

What are The Tubes? Wikipedia equivocates and says "Art rock, glam rock, New Wave, Hard rock, Comedy rock". I don't think they need to be categorized.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4KSux1OEkk

[Midsize Jake]

What are The Tubes? Wikipedia equivocates and says "Art rock, glam rock, New Wave, Hard rock, Comedy rock". I don't think they need to be categorized.

Personally, I saw them (and I daresay experienced them) as a kind of "musical gateway drug" into a variety of less commercial and/or more eclectic genres. I agree that WP is equivocating there, but I'd also have to say that none of the genres they're listing there are all that inaccurate, in their case.

At the risk of defending Wikipedia content that has never really been all that great overall, it might be fair to say that as a general rule, Wikipedia has less (and maybe even much less) of a problem accurately identifying specific artists/bands with various applicable genres than it does with actually defining the genres themselves. And I think that's because there are lots of fans of specific artists who will go to Wikipedia to defend their fave bands' articles against idiots like Binksternet and FMSky, but relatively few who will do that for something as vague and nebulous as a musical genre.

To some extent, that's also why I've been advocating on Mr. Wyldaboutit's behalf here this whole time — he's found an issue that matters to him that others don't think or care much about, and somehow I respect his willingness to do that, even though I agree that his efforts are almost certainly self-defeating.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I don't know what "axiomatic" means, but I'm going to guess from context that it refers to a pointless argument with someone who hasn't read all of the posts in this thread.

I've read them all, but I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Mr. Boise in this case, and not just because Mr. Boise has genuine real-world bona fides in this area (more so than I do). I would say it's not only axiomatic, it's fundamentally axiomatic. I might even go so far as to say the notion that the burden of proof should rest on someone trying to "prove" this is absolutely absurd.

So, if I haven't said so before, I believe that New Wave developed in the UK and the US more or less at the same time*. I also believe that Wyldboutit has not even come close to making a case that would not be easily dismissed by the people on Wikipedia who espouse the "UK first view".

*I'm not sure why everyone is ignoring the rest of Europe in this discussion. I think there's a case to made for including at least Belgium, Germany, and maybe the Netherlands. Don't ask me to make that case, though.

[greyed.out.fields]

...

...

... at least Belgium ...

[Elinruby]

...

...

... at least Belgium ...

The accent!

[greyed.out.fields]

...

...

... at least Belgium ...

[youtube]YouTube Video[/youtube]

The accent!

You'll have to explain this to us. M Bertrand's French - français Wallon? - sounds pretty much like standard French to me. Admittedly, my very sparse knowledge of the difference between Langues d'oïl (T-H-L) and Langues d'oc (T-H-L) is from my undergraduate days at the Faculty of Linguistics at the University of Woolloomooloo

[Bezdomni]

You'll have to explain this to us. M Bertrand's French - français Wallon? - sounds pretty much like standard French to me.

En 2010, un rapport d'expert analysant la prononciation des différents phonèmes considère que l'interprète original de la chanson "Ça plane pour moi" ne peut être que picard — ce qui est le cas de Lou Deprijck, originaire du sud de la Belgique, mais certainement pas de Plastic Bertrand qui est bruxellois

source

Walloon and ch'ti share some traits (and even some territory)... notice the pronunciation in particular of "bouteille" as "boutele". The pogoing "king of the divan" seems to be related to "The Safety Dance".

[rnu]

It's funny how some old music videos now look like rather mean spirited satire.

[Elinruby]

...

...

... at least Belgium ...

[youtube]YouTube Video[/youtube]

The accent!

You'll have to explain this to us. M Bertrand's French - français Wallon? - sounds pretty much like standard French to me. Admittedly, my very sparse knowledge of the difference between Langues d'oïl (T-H-L) and Langues d'oc (T-H-L) is from my undergraduate days at the Faculty of Linguistics at the University of Woolloomooloo

I don't have the linguistics vocabulary to explain and Bezdomni seems to have done rather well. I am impressed that he found an academic reference about this specific video.

It isn't a thick accent to the point of being another dialect like Glaswegian or joual. But my ear, which is attuned to Parisian, caught something about the vowels that made me think Holland. It's subtle and I am nowhere near familiar enough with Belgium to say if it is Brussels or not. By analogy think Canadian English.

[rnu]

[...]
I am impressed that he found an academic reference about this specific video.
[...]

There was a lawsuit about the rights:
Lou Deprijck (T-H-L)

In the English-speaking world, Deprijck's best known hit was "Ça plane pour moi", which he recorded and sang for Plastic Bertrand,[8] who remains generally credited for the song (and was upheld legally in 2006 as being entitled to be called its artist).[9] In fact, Deprijck was also the "voice" of Plastic Bertrand's first four albums.[7] In 2006, a Belgian appeal court ruled that Bertrand was the "legal performer" of the classic track,[10] but the ruling was overturned in 2010.[11]

Lou Deprijck (T-H-L)

Lou Deprijck compose, produit et chante le tube Ça plane pour moi, dont le chant est construit sur une note unique (à l'exception d'une courte vocalise dans le refrain) pour parodier certains morceaux punk. Il invente pour l'occasion un personnage virtuel, Plastic Bertrand. Le succès du morceau l'oblige à faire incarner ce personnage : il fait appel pour cela à Roger Jouret, qui connaît ensuite une carrière durable sous ce pseudonyme10.

La polémique sur l'interprète réel de Ça plane pour moi est apparue en 2006 à l'occasion d'un procès sur le statut formel d’« interprète légal » de la chanson. Pourtant, la paternité de Lou Deprijck est connue dans les années 1980 et n'a pas été contestée par Plastic Bertrand. Dans un arrêt du 16 juin 2006, la cour d’appel de Bruxelles indique clairement « que juridiquement seul Plastic Bertrand a la qualité d’artiste interprète de la chanson Ça plane pour moi »11, mais cet arrêt porte uniquement sur le statut légal (comme Plastic Bertrand est signataire du contrat, il est l'interprète légal de la chanson) et ne tranche pas sur la réalité des faits.

En 2010, un rapport d'expert analysant la prononciation des différents phonèmes considère que l'interprète original de la chanson Ça plane pour moi ne peut être que picard — ce qui est le cas de Lou Deprijck, originaire du sud de la Belgique, mais certainement pas de Plastic Bertrand qui est bruxellois12. Ce rapport provoque des réactions diverses de Plastic Bertrand, celui-ci reconnaissant n'être pas le chanteur, même s'il est l'interprète légal, puis niant à nouveau13,14.

L'un des aspects déterminant de l'affaire est que tous les musiciens et tous les techniciens impliqués dans l'enregistrement original de 1977 témoignent (y compris sous serment pour ceux convoqués au procès de 2010) que c'est bien Lou Deprijck qui chante Ça plane pour moi, ainsi que toutes les chansons des quatre premiers albums de Plastic Bertrand15.