Let's talk about LDS editors

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:33 pm

rnu wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:24 pm
As for HEB? Kick him out -- make Wikipedia a slightly less horrible place.
I think this advice may be a bit like saying we should disable the smoke detector because it keeps going off when the house is on fire. HEB is abrasive, rude, and gets away with certain behaviors that run right up against the ones that people argue (with some good sense) should be excised from WP, but at least he is not running a Book of Mormon study session that pays participants to write pseudoencyclopedic religious propaganda as a means to seed generative AI LLMs. It's only a matter of time before we get chatbots saying things like, "Mormon lived in the Western hemisphere in the fourth century AD." (Actually, too late on that -- go ahead, look into it, but we don't need to be making things worse, do we?)

Not that I think the ring leaders are clever enough to know that's what they are doing, but they are, to keep going with the metaphor, burning a small fire in the corner of the house that has gone unnoticed for too long.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Venefica » Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:56 pm

It is pretty astounding that you have to be blatant enough to call yourself WarBishop (T-C-L), bluster about being "senior clergy", AND be actively edit warring with like 6 people at once before you're considered to have a COI with LDS topics that might not be a net positive to the encyclopedia.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:19 pm

Question of the day: is WhatamIdoing (T-C-L) playing dumb or just dumb?
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:40 pm

I've documented a bunch of conflict of interest and self-promotion stuff here from editors who happen to be LDS. If I started this thread now, knowing what I know now, I would call it "Let's talk about Association of Mormon Letters editors". It wouldn't make the editors and more or less LDS, but it would point the finger at that particular problematic group. This was never about anyone's religious beliefs.

That Village Pump discussion seems to be sliding into a shouting match about LDS beliefs. That is not at all why I started this thread.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:02 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:40 pm
I've documented a bunch of conflict of interest and self-promotion stuff here from editors who happen to be LDS. If I started this thread now, knowing what I know now, I would call it "Let's talk about Association of Mormon Letters editors". It wouldn't make the editors and more or less LDS, but it would point the finger at that particular problematic group. This was never about anyone's religious beliefs.

That Village Pump discussion seems to be sliding into a shouting match about LDS beliefs. That is not at all why I started this thread.
I agree. That discussion has turned into an unhealthy conflation of COI editing and the reliability of sources written by adherents of a religion. Of course the staggering amount of stupidity doesn't help either.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:09 pm

rnu wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:19 pm
Question of the day: is WhatamIdoing (T-C-L) playing dumb or just dumb?
Sherry Snyder is a dipshit for the ages.

She repeatedly proved herself a complete moron as a community liaison for the Visual Edsel.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:10 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:40 pm
I've documented a bunch of conflict of interest and self-promotion stuff here from editors who happen to be LDS. If I started this thread now, knowing what I know now, I would call it "Let's talk about Association of Mormon Letters editors". It wouldn't make the editors and more or less LDS, but it would point the finger at that particular problematic group. This was never about anyone's religious beliefs.

That Village Pump discussion seems to be sliding into a shouting match about LDS beliefs. That is not at all why I started this thread.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:44 pm

Meanwhile Primefac is fighting the evils of outing by redacting HEB at the village pump and Levivich on the user talk page of P-Makoto (T-C-L).
Yes, it is imperative that we make sure that the transgender, Japanese-American P-Makoto who has participated in a WikiEdu project at BYU and writes about Mormonism on Wikipedia is not identified as the transgender, Japanese-American P. Makoto Hunter who studied and worked at BYU and has written about Mormonism in other places. :facepalm:
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Zoloft » Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:05 pm

rnu wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:19 pm
Question of the day: is WhatamIdoing (T-C-L) playing dumb or just dumb?
Discussion of COI for Brigham University Library Wikipedian in Residence

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:20 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:40 pm
That Village Pump discussion seems to be sliding into a shouting match about LDS beliefs. That is not at all why I started this thread.
Sorry not sorry. I understand your interest and approach. To be sure, it's probably a better one in terms of effective WikiPolitics. What piqued my interest was the fact that Rachel Helps and her student workers seem to be on a campaign to document every unique word, phrase, and idea found in the Book of Mormon -- wider context be damned. I have no particular disdain for Mormonism any more than any other religion, but the way Wikipedia is handling these particular pages right now is fairly ridiculous.

What pushed me over the edge of kickstarting the VP thread was the fact that these people are all working for BYU. This is a job that only Mormons or Mormon sycophants can get. That's just how BYU works. Wikipedia is all but endorsing that approach.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:27 pm

rnu wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:19 pm
Question of the day: is WhatamIdoing (T-C-L) playing dumb or just dumb?
If I had to guess, she along with Andy Mabbett are running defense for the sake of GLAM-itude.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:59 pm

There is some risk that by conflating different issues the waters are muddied to a point where the problems are not as obvious as they should be. There are at least three issues at play:
1. Is the editing done by the BYU editors in compliance to the rules for WiR, GLAM, COI and PAID?
2. Should there be WiR and GLAM co-operations with BYU (and similar institutions)?
3. How should religious topics be covered on Wikipedia and when is the work of an adherent of some faith a RS and when is it not?
3a. Is Mormonism covered in an appropriate way on Wikipedia and is it based on RS?
The answer to 1., 2. and 3. is probably "no".

"Does a believer in X have a COI with regard to X?" is in my opinion a huge red herring.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:05 pm

rnu wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:59 pm
There is some risk that by conflating different issues the waters are muddied to a point where the problems are not as obvious as they should be. There are at least three issues at play:
1. Is the editing done by the BYU editors in compliance to the rules for WiR, GLAM, COI and PAID?
2. Should there be WiR and GLAM co-operations with BYU (and similar institutions)?
3. How should religious topics be covered on Wikipedia and when is the work of an adherent of some faith a RS and when is it not?
3a. Is Mormonism covered in an appropriate way on Wikipedia and is it based on RS?
The answer to 1., 2. and 3. is probably "no".

"Does a believer in X have a COI with regard to X?" is in my opinion a huge red herring.
I think I agree with all that. Especially with the last question being a red herring.

I am most concerned with question 2. But that's my bias.

Point (1) is fairly uninteresting to me as I think rules at a place that enshrines WP:IAR (T-H-L) are basically "do whatever you can get away with". Pointless to argue over that, in my opinion.

Point (3) I think is actually pretty well trodden ground and probably doesn't need to be discussed. A few dedicated superusers could bulldoze all the problem articles pretty efficiently and resolve most of the problems. It's been done before and doubtless will be done again.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:19 pm

Does anyone here know whether enwiki could just decide that they don't want a WiR or GLAM cooperation with BYU? Or is that something the WMF decides?
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:24 pm

rnu wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:19 pm
Does anyone here know whether enwiki could just decide that they don't want a WiR or GLAM cooperation with BYU? Or is that something the WMF decides?
I don't think even WMF decides. This is all stuff that is organized by the hosting institution and liaisons. Well, actually I haven't looked into the finances lately as to whether there is any monetary support by the WMF, but the first GLAMs and Wikipedians in Residence were entirely organized at the behest of users.

I am fairly certain that the en-wikipedia community could decide to delete the organization pages and block the participants and WMF wouldn't stop them. They've blocked at least one Wikipedia Visiting Scholar without any issue, for example.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Kraken » Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:44 am

:facepalm:
User:Rwelean = User:Rachel Helps (BYU) (self-declared, both directions). Rwelean twice created The ARCH-HIVE, a Mormon art collective. They won an AML Award in 2019. Rachel Helps was a judge on the 2019 AML Awards, is a board member of the AML, and is or was a a contributor to the Arch-Hive blog, zines and podcast. I can find no indication that Rwelean or Rachel Helps has indicated her COI with the collective anywhere. Fram (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Wow, there's a lot here. I'll respond to a couple of random points, make some suggestions, and then butt out.......In the specific case of Rachel Helps (BYU), she has been in my opinion a model editor, and it bugs me to see her dragged through this every couple of months because she's doing the right thing and disclosing her COI.......~Awilley (talk) 04:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
It seems to me from this discussion that the bigger problem with Helps is her general understanding of policy, specifically these clauses in RS......
Reliable scholarship – Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses

.....

POV and peer review in journals – Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view. A claim of peer review is not an indication that the journal is respected, or that any meaningful peer review occurs. Journals that are not peer reviewed by the wider academic community should not be considered reliable, except to show the views of the groups represented by those journals
But this too is related to COI. When your pay and position obliges you to take a particular view of these clauses that is potentially compete garbage when viewed from the perspective of a neutral general reference work (as opposed to the encyclopedia of Mormonism), then you are conflicted in a massive way.

Who usually turns up to debate such grand affairs of state? Settle who has the right interpretation of these clauses with respect to Mormon scholarship, Helps or jps.

People like Aquillion.

He's not Helping.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by ArmasRebane » Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:15 pm

iii wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:27 pm
rnu wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:19 pm
Question of the day: is WhatamIdoing (T-C-L) playing dumb or just dumb?
If I had to guess, she along with Andy Mabbett are running defense for the sake of GLAM-itude.
I think you've probably hit the nail on the head, given that the other place I've often seen her carrying water for bad edits is related to WikiEd stuff. Feels like a "the mission can't be wrong"-type person.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:47 pm

Proposal by AirshipJungleman29 (T-C-L): Follow up from VPM: topic ban proposal for Rachel Helps
ongoing
permanent
And yes. Andy Mabbett and WhatamIdoing are doing their best to run interference.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Kraken » Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:52 pm

The reality is that even if people are disclosing their COI (and frankly I don't think most are, at least to the level of adhering to the spirit of our directives, which would strongly discourage most of this editing) it's still a problem. I encountered the issues with this kind of editing firsthand at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Book of Mormon monetary system (T-H-L), where an article essentially treated an ahistorical topic as real until the AfD, and even then BYU editors managed to sway the deletion discussion to no consensus, and argued that content published by BYU or the LDS church counted as independent for the purposes of notability. This is simply fundamentally incompatible with building a neutral encyclopedia, and it's a distinctly different and bigger issue than museum editing (which, to be clear, can have issues with distorting our coverage as well.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Amen to that.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:04 pm

Rachel Helps has confirmed that BoyNamedTzu (T-C-L) is Michael Austin (writer) (T-H-L). Primefac has redacted this information on her userpage and elsewhere.
Helps has also posted looooooooooooooong COI statements on her userpage.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Wikiguy.DC » Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:05 pm

Also, another day, another Primefac LDSuppression — when will it end? El_C 19:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Is El C onto something here?

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:30 pm

rnu wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:04 pm
Rachel Helps has confirmed that BoyNamedTzu (T-C-L) is Michael Austin (writer) (T-H-L). Primefac has redacted this information on her userpage and elsewhere.
I'm going to try not to feel insulted, but I told you that almost 2 months ago. Did you think I was just guessing?

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:34 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:30 pm
rnu wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:04 pm
Rachel Helps has confirmed that BoyNamedTzu (T-C-L) is Michael Austin (writer) (T-H-L). Primefac has redacted this information on her userpage and elsewhere.
I'm going to try not to feel insulted, but I told you that almost 2 months ago. Did you think I was just guessing?
I think the operative word is “confirmed” as in “fessed up.”

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:42 pm

The Blue Newt wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:34 pm
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:30 pm
rnu wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:04 pm
Rachel Helps has confirmed that BoyNamedTzu (T-C-L) is Michael Austin (writer) (T-H-L). Primefac has redacted this information on her userpage and elsewhere.
I'm going to try not to feel insulted, but I told you that almost 2 months ago. Did you think I was just guessing?
I think the operative word is “confirmed” as in “fessed up.”
It is.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:59 pm

It turns out that an editor who worked on Rachel Helps' The ARCH-HIVE (T-H-L) page works for the WMF. As a lawyer. They are Madi Moss, Senior Counsel, Compliance. They edit as MossAlbatross (T-C-L).

Here's a conversation on Twitter between Helps and Moss:
twitter thread
Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
3 Aug 2023
I wrote a Wikipedia page for Little Moon today! (on my day off 😅) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little…
Little Moon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Love, but also am now very distracted by the draftification of ARCH-HIVE (I’m an incurable talk page trawler). Any updates on that? I have a refill lake bonneville sticker on my laptop but am an otherwise unclonflicted editor who would love to +1 or assist on main spacing

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
(From volunteer account, I do not speak for my WMF account, it mainly exists for beloved Governance Wiki)

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss @Rachel_Helps
(Sorry will move on) but it looks like the Desert News article came out after your draft and could be reason to revisit notability? Happy to add in if helpful, but will totally respect your user space / decision if no deseret.com/2022/6/11/230641…
Perspective: How this art collective could change the way you look at Christian art

An art collective founded by two Latter-day Saints seeks to create a new aesthetic and community.
deseret.com

Aug 3, 2023 · 10:44 PM UTC

Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
4 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss
Yeah I totally want to write a page! But now I'm salty and paranoid, haha. Their OCD show was on the front page of the Salt Lake tribune! Feel free to edit my draft if you feel inclined, maybe two people working on it will seem like less vanity

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
4 Aug 2023
I live in fear of the exact notability-horror situation you experienced 🫣 for this case though, I think the last year of coverage SHOULD be enough on its own and hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims
Sorry, I know that's hard to read. Twitter doesn't archive properly anymore, thanks to Elon Musk.

Here we have a lawyer who works for the WMF acknowledging the COI claims while offering to help edit the page in order to dilute the appearance of COI: "hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims".

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:20 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:59 pm
It turns out that an editor who worked on Rachel Helps' The ARCH-HIVE (T-H-L) page works for the WMF. As a lawyer. They are Madi Moss, Senior Counsel, Compliance. They edit as MossAlbatross (T-C-L).

Here's a conversation on Twitter between Helps and Moss:
twitter thread
Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
3 Aug 2023
I wrote a Wikipedia page for Little Moon today! (on my day off 😅) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little…
Little Moon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Love, but also am now very distracted by the draftification of ARCH-HIVE (I’m an incurable talk page trawler). Any updates on that? I have a refill lake bonneville sticker on my laptop but am an otherwise unclonflicted editor who would love to +1 or assist on main spacing

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
(From volunteer account, I do not speak for my WMF account, it mainly exists for beloved Governance Wiki)

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss @Rachel_Helps
(Sorry will move on) but it looks like the Desert News article came out after your draft and could be reason to revisit notability? Happy to add in if helpful, but will totally respect your user space / decision if no deseret.com/2022/6/11/230641…
Perspective: How this art collective could change the way you look at Christian art

An art collective founded by two Latter-day Saints seeks to create a new aesthetic and community.
deseret.com

Aug 3, 2023 · 10:44 PM UTC

Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
4 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss
Yeah I totally want to write a page! But now I'm salty and paranoid, haha. Their OCD show was on the front page of the Salt Lake tribune! Feel free to edit my draft if you feel inclined, maybe two people working on it will seem like less vanity

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
4 Aug 2023
I live in fear of the exact notability-horror situation you experienced 🫣 for this case though, I think the last year of coverage SHOULD be enough on its own and hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims
Sorry, I know that's hard to read. Twitter doesn't archive properly anymore, thanks to Elon Musk.

Here we have a lawyer who works for the WMF acknowledging the COI claims while offering to help edit the page in order to dilute the appearance of COI: "hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims".
Madison Moss got her degree at BYU, did a " legal externship with the Area Legal Counsel Office of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Ghana" and was a "a law clerk at BYU’s Office of General Counsel".
"ἄνθρωπον ζητῶ" (Diogenes of Sinope)

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:25 pm

rnu wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:20 pm
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:59 pm
It turns out that an editor who worked on Rachel Helps' The ARCH-HIVE (T-H-L) page works for the WMF. As a lawyer. They are Madi Moss, Senior Counsel, Compliance. They edit as MossAlbatross (T-C-L).

Here's a conversation on Twitter between Helps and Moss:
twitter thread
Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
3 Aug 2023
I wrote a Wikipedia page for Little Moon today! (on my day off 😅) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little…
Little Moon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Love, but also am now very distracted by the draftification of ARCH-HIVE (I’m an incurable talk page trawler). Any updates on that? I have a refill lake bonneville sticker on my laptop but am an otherwise unclonflicted editor who would love to +1 or assist on main spacing

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
(From volunteer account, I do not speak for my WMF account, it mainly exists for beloved Governance Wiki)

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss @Rachel_Helps
(Sorry will move on) but it looks like the Desert News article came out after your draft and could be reason to revisit notability? Happy to add in if helpful, but will totally respect your user space / decision if no deseret.com/2022/6/11/230641…
Perspective: How this art collective could change the way you look at Christian art

An art collective founded by two Latter-day Saints seeks to create a new aesthetic and community.
deseret.com

Aug 3, 2023 · 10:44 PM UTC

Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
4 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss
Yeah I totally want to write a page! But now I'm salty and paranoid, haha. Their OCD show was on the front page of the Salt Lake tribune! Feel free to edit my draft if you feel inclined, maybe two people working on it will seem like less vanity

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
4 Aug 2023
I live in fear of the exact notability-horror situation you experienced 🫣 for this case though, I think the last year of coverage SHOULD be enough on its own and hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims
Sorry, I know that's hard to read. Twitter doesn't archive properly anymore, thanks to Elon Musk.

Here we have a lawyer who works for the WMF acknowledging the COI claims while offering to help edit the page in order to dilute the appearance of COI: "hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims".
Madison Moss got her degree at BYU, did a " legal externship with the Area Legal Counsel Office of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Ghana" and was a "a law clerk at BYU’s Office of General Counsel".
Which might explain why WhatAmIDoingHere is fighting so vociferously to avoid the inevitable smackdown.
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by bagofworms » Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:37 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:25 pm
rnu wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:20 pm
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:59 pm
It turns out that an editor who worked on Rachel Helps' The ARCH-HIVE (T-H-L) page works for the WMF. As a lawyer. They are Madi Moss, Senior Counsel, Compliance. They edit as MossAlbatross (T-C-L).

Here's a conversation on Twitter between Helps and Moss:
twitter thread
Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
3 Aug 2023
I wrote a Wikipedia page for Little Moon today! (on my day off 😅) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little…
Little Moon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Love, but also am now very distracted by the draftification of ARCH-HIVE (I’m an incurable talk page trawler). Any updates on that? I have a refill lake bonneville sticker on my laptop but am an otherwise unclonflicted editor who would love to +1 or assist on main spacing

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
(From volunteer account, I do not speak for my WMF account, it mainly exists for beloved Governance Wiki)

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
3 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss @Rachel_Helps
(Sorry will move on) but it looks like the Desert News article came out after your draft and could be reason to revisit notability? Happy to add in if helpful, but will totally respect your user space / decision if no deseret.com/2022/6/11/230641…
Perspective: How this art collective could change the way you look at Christian art

An art collective founded by two Latter-day Saints seeks to create a new aesthetic and community.
deseret.com

Aug 3, 2023 · 10:44 PM UTC

Rachel Helps
@Rachel_Helps
4 Aug 2023
Replying to @madimarklemoss
Yeah I totally want to write a page! But now I'm salty and paranoid, haha. Their OCD show was on the front page of the Salt Lake tribune! Feel free to edit my draft if you feel inclined, maybe two people working on it will seem like less vanity

Madi Moss
@madimarklemoss
4 Aug 2023
I live in fear of the exact notability-horror situation you experienced 🫣 for this case though, I think the last year of coverage SHOULD be enough on its own and hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims
Sorry, I know that's hard to read. Twitter doesn't archive properly anymore, thanks to Elon Musk.

Here we have a lawyer who works for the WMF acknowledging the COI claims while offering to help edit the page in order to dilute the appearance of COI: "hopefully the mere presence of an extra editor can bury the odd COI claims".
Madison Moss got her degree at BYU, did a " legal externship with the Area Legal Counsel Office of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Ghana" and was a "a law clerk at BYU’s Office of General Counsel".
Which might explain why WhatAmIDoingHere is fighting so vociferously to avoid the inevitable smackdown.
I'm hesitant to ascribe any semblance of strategic forethought to WAID's comments.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by rnu » Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:41 am

Have you seen anything in my edits that is harmful to the LDS Church or to anyone else? Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You don’t seem to be understanding my point. It doesn’t matter what I have or haven’t seen in your edits. You are free at this website inasmuch it is an Open Culture Movement website to explore, edit, study, and expand your horizons to whatever extent you would like. We encourage that on principle. Normally, I would welcome such engagement. But here is the thing: you are employed by BYU to write here. You are also a student. My commitment to radical openness then is now necessarily tempered by my greater concern for your well-being as a student and student worker because, frankly, that is far more important than the openness of this website. And if your school had a commitment to academic freedom, free speech, and so forth, there would be no tension there. But the fact remains that BYU has really strict policies. To be clear: You aren’t doing anything wrong! But we can’t stop your school from mistreating you on the basis of what I would considered normal activity at this website. If you came out tomorrow as a promiscuous anti-Mormon atheist (and I’m not saying you will… just go with the hypothetical) then while we would welcome you, suddenly you find yourself without support from the institution you rely on. And so we’re stuck. I think we can’t operate according to our own community rules because doing so puts you at risk and we need to figure out how to fix that. Having you contribute to article space is almost certainly not the right answer. If you had a sandbox where you could offer quotes from sources or apologetics or what have you that would help maintain your ecclesiastical endorsement, then there would be less of a problem. But you are duty bound to maintain a fealty to your church and your faith which this website should not be challenging because it can cause you problems. jps (talk) 23:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Acknowledging my disclosed past connection to BYU, I can't help but think it's a little disingenuous, howsoever inadvertently, to frame this as humanitarian concern for Heidi Pusey (BYU) and kind of paternalistic to insist that she can't assess for herself what her situation at BYU is like and whether there's any "risk of falling out of favor with your bishop", to use your words. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The concern is not whether she made the correct or incorrect assessment. I trust that she knows what she is doing. I'm assessing the entirety of the situation for myself as a member of this community. My goal generally (it has nothing to do with this user specifically) is to make sure that all people are taken care of as best they can be. I see the following situation: (1) BYU has rules (2) this website has rules (3) those rules are by my reading at fundamental odds. I think that the best thing we can do given that, as a website community, and given that I have absolutely zero sway over BYU, is to prevent a situation where students acting as compelled editors (that's part of what getting paid to edit does, as fun as I find it to be since I do it for free) edit content that is directly relevant to those rules. It's that simple. Because let's say there is no risk of her running afoul of such. Then that is equally a problem in my mind. This stamps out the very radical openness we are trying to promote and makes me worried that the BYU student who is in the closet about their scholarship that identifies problems with the Book of Mormon would not and should not take this job. This can of worms is ugly and it gets worse the more you look at it. jps (talk) 00:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

1. I am not in the closet about my scholarship and do not appreciate such an assumption.
2. I do not appreciate you attacking my identity and assuming I will *hypothetically* become a "promiscuous anti-Mormon atheist." Such an assumption is unfounded and unacceptable. I will not tolerate it.
3. I will no longer reply in this thread. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 00:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I guess they don't teach what a hypothetical is at BYU. Nor what an assumption is in the context of logic (as in "from assumption 1 it follows that") and argumentation (as in "assume for the sake of argument"). :facepalm:
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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Elinruby » Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:59 am

rnu wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:41 am
Have you seen anything in my edits that is harmful to the LDS Church or to anyone else? Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You don’t seem to be understanding my point. It doesn’t matter what I have or haven’t seen in your edits. You are free at this website inasmuch it is an Open Culture Movement website to explore, edit, study, and expand your horizons to whatever extent you would like. We encourage that on principle. Normally, I would welcome such engagement. But here is the thing: you are employed by BYU to write here. You are also a student. My commitment to radical openness then is now necessarily tempered by my greater concern for your well-being as a student and student worker because, frankly, that is far more important than the openness of this website. And if your school had a commitment to academic freedom, free speech, and so forth, there would be no tension there. But the fact remains that BYU has really strict policies. To be clear: You aren’t doing anything wrong! But we can’t stop your school from mistreating you on the basis of what I would considered normal activity at this website. If you came out tomorrow as a promiscuous anti-Mormon atheist (and I’m not saying you will… just go with the hypothetical) then while we would welcome you, suddenly you find yourself without support from the institution you rely on. And so we’re stuck. I think we can’t operate according to our own community rules because doing so puts you at risk and we need to figure out how to fix that. Having you contribute to article space is almost certainly not the right answer. If you had a sandbox where you could offer quotes from sources or apologetics or what have you that would help maintain your ecclesiastical endorsement, then there would be less of a problem. But you are duty bound to maintain a fealty to your church and your faith which this website should not be challenging because it can cause you problems. jps (talk) 23:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Acknowledging my disclosed past connection to BYU, I can't help but think it's a little disingenuous, howsoever inadvertently, to frame this as humanitarian concern for Heidi Pusey (BYU) and kind of paternalistic to insist that she can't assess for herself what her situation at BYU is like and whether there's any "risk of falling out of favor with your bishop", to use your words. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The concern is not whether she made the correct or incorrect assessment. I trust that she knows what she is doing. I'm assessing the entirety of the situation for myself as a member of this community. My goal generally (it has nothing to do with this user specifically) is to make sure that all people are taken care of as best they can be. I see the following situation: (1) BYU has rules (2) this website has rules (3) those rules are by my reading at fundamental odds. I think that the best thing we can do given that, as a website community, and given that I have absolutely zero sway over BYU, is to prevent a situation where students acting as compelled editors (that's part of what getting paid to edit does, as fun as I find it to be since I do it for free) edit content that is directly relevant to those rules. It's that simple. Because let's say there is no risk of her running afoul of such. Then that is equally a problem in my mind. This stamps out the very radical openness we are trying to promote and makes me worried that the BYU student who is in the closet about their scholarship that identifies problems with the Book of Mormon would not and should not take this job. This can of worms is ugly and it gets worse the more you look at it. jps (talk) 00:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

1. I am not in the closet about my scholarship and do not appreciate such an assumption.
2. I do not appreciate you attacking my identity and assuming I will *hypothetically* become a "promiscuous anti-Mormon atheist." Such an assumption is unfounded and unacceptable. I will not tolerate it.
3. I will no longer reply in this thread. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 00:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I guess they don't teach what a hypothetical is at BYU. Nor what an assumption is in the context of logic (as in "from assumption 1 it follows that") and argumentation (as in "assume for the sake of argument"). :facepalm:
I don't know jps but as an outside observer that looks to me like a rather tactful description of the effect of A COI on the rest of the community.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:50 am

One thing that seems to have united people from across the divide is that they really didn't like my line of inquiry. I say, "I'm worried about you because editing Wikipedia could run you afoul of your school's restrictive honor code" and I'm being paternalistic. I say, "what if you weren't a goody two shoes and still wanted to get this job?" and the anger that spews forth is like something out of the Mountain Meadows. Hell, someone told me privately that since Heidi is doing her job right now that she might consider reporting me to HR.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Elinruby » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:22 am

iii wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:50 am
Hell, someone told me privately that since Heidi is doing her job right now that she might consider reporting me to HR.
that would be a BYU problem no? If they are putting her in a position where she could be sanctioned by either side?

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Ron Lybonly » Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:09 am

iii wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:50 am
Hell, someone told me privately that since Heidi is doing her job right now that she might consider reporting me to HR.
I’m confused - report you to what HR? BYU’s? Are you an BYU employee or Mormon? If not I don’t see what they can do about you. Take away your birthday?

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by utbc » Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:34 am

Ron Lybonly wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:09 am
iii wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:50 am
Hell, someone told me privately that since Heidi is doing her job right now that she might consider reporting me to HR.
I’m confused - report you to what HR? BYU’s? Are you an BYU employee or Mormon? If not I don’t see what they can do about you. Take away your birthday?
When the mormons build their interstellar ark, they'll leave him behind.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by greenday61892 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:58 am

I'm genuinely getting the vibes we're starting to see the beginning of a wikipedia controversy for the ages that will make what was uncovered in the initial nihonjoe blogpost look like playground gossip

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Elinruby » Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:53 am

utbc wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:34 am
Ron Lybonly wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:09 am
iii wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:50 am
Hell, someone told me privately that since Heidi is doing her job right now that she might consider reporting me to HR.
I’m confused - report you to what HR? BYU’s? Are you an BYU employee or Mormon? If not I don’t see what they can do about you. Take away your birthday?
When the mormons build their interstellar ark, they'll leave him behind.
Don't forget they run a genealogy database ;)

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Alexbrn » Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:13 am

greenday61892 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:58 am
I'm genuinely getting the vibes we're starting to see the beginning of a wikipedia controversy for the ages that will make what was uncovered in the initial nihonjoe blogpost look like playground gossip
It might be rising to the level where it garners press interest, with a "Mormon infiltration of Wikipedia" line maybe?

It does strike me as odd that at ANI we have an admin !voting against sanctioning a BYU editor editing Mormon content who, a decade ago, was a BYU editor editing Mormon content.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Kraken » Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:13 am

It's quite perverse to see people arguing that COI editing should be allowed because nobody else would be making these edits.

THAT'S THE POINT.

Some things are of no real interest to the wider world. Wikipedia is not the encyclopedia of Mormonism.

Helps is beginning to look like a perfect example of the problem of allowing COI editors to belive they're somehow volunteers like anyone else, and managing their COI is somehow less important than whether they are a good editor.
I believe that NPOV is more important than an undisclosed COI.
Declaring COIs is required precisely because it directly affects the neutrality of Wikipedia.
I believe an underlying assumption is that since I work for the BYU Library, I wouldn't say bad things about Mormonism (broadly construed), the LDS Church, or BYU. 
There is no such underlying assumption in the requirement to disclose a COI. The issue is appearances as much as it is effect. You can (and should be aiming to be) a model editor whose bias is completely undetectable from your editing. You still need to declare.
I have edited on many pages in these topics and many have changed the way I think about the LDS Church and BYU, and not in a good way. Some examples are Battle at Fort Utah, a page I expanded about a one-sided attack on Timpanogos families supported by Brigham Young that lies at the heart of the city of Provo's founding. 
Case in point. You're seeking extra credit for things which are mandatory for ordinary editors. Why? Because you're trying to make it appear as if your COI is being managed by your own self.

This is not how it works.

And for the record, the model Wikipedia editor practices writing for the enemy as a matter of routine, not for occasional extra credit. It's considered best practice for a professional historian who is aiming to distill the neutral point of view from a wide range of sources.

A professional is well aware of their own bias and how it would affect their work if they weren't being proactive in mitigating it. Wikipedia is geared toward allowing volunteers to be professional without being paid. Ignoring the guidelines for their own reasons, is the first sign an editor has no such intention.
I believe that on the whole, the work I and my students have done has improved Wikipedia. We have added so much accurate information, cited in-line, to reliable sources. We have helped to make more sources discoverable by summarizing and citing them.
Irrelevant. See above.

Relevant only to illustrate that COI editors seem to want credit for editing the way any volunteer is supposed to edit. You're supposed to summarizing reliable sources to make Wikipedia more accurate. That is the bare minimum any editor should be doing. The issue is whether you understand THERE IS MORE TO IT THAN THAT.

Neutrality is also about weight and context. It's about why you are using Wikipedia to expose these sources.
No thank you Turkish, I'm sweet enough.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:46 am

Ron Lybonly wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:09 am
iii wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:50 am
Hell, someone told me privately that since Heidi is doing her job right now that she might consider reporting me to HR.
I’m confused - report you to what HR? BYU’s? Are you an BYU employee or Mormon? If not I don’t see what they can do about you. Take away your birthday?
It was something along the lines of "imagine we were in a workplace... would you say that?" sort of a discussion. The irony being, of course, she is in the workplace.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:48 am

Alexbrn wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:13 am
greenday61892 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:58 am
I'm genuinely getting the vibes we're starting to see the beginning of a wikipedia controversy for the ages that will make what was uncovered in the initial nihonjoe blogpost look like playground gossip
It might be rising to the level where it garners press interest, with a "Mormon infiltration of Wikipedia" line maybe?

It does strike me as odd that at ANI we have an admin !voting against sanctioning a BYU editor editing Mormon content who, a decade ago, was a BYU editor editing Mormon content.
The people who might sit up and take notice first are the anti-Mormon podcasters. This is the sort of thing they live for. No, I'm not going to pitch it to them.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:41 pm

Alexbrn wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:13 am
It does strike me as odd that at ANI we have an admin !voting against sanctioning a BYU editor editing Mormon content who, a decade ago, was a BYU editor editing Mormon content.
That article lead me to this one: Wiki Wars: In battle to define beliefs, Mormons and foes wage battle on Wikipedia (Deseret News, 2011).

For your convenience, the users mentioned: Bochica~enwiki (T-C-L), Roger Penumbra (T-C-L), John Foxe (T-C-L), and 74s181 (T-C-L). Looks like John Foxe is the only one still editing.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:50 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:41 pm
Alexbrn wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:13 am
It does strike me as odd that at ANI we have an admin !voting against sanctioning a BYU editor editing Mormon content who, a decade ago, was a BYU editor editing Mormon content.
That article lead me to this one: Wiki Wars: In battle to define beliefs, Mormons and foes wage battle on Wikipedia (Deseret News, 2011).

For your convenience, the users mentioned: Bochica~enwiki (T-C-L), Roger Penumbra (T-C-L), John Foxe (T-C-L), and 74s181 (T-C-L). Looks like John Foxe is the only one still editing.
under those names.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Mojito » Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:59 pm

Alexbrn wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:13 am
greenday61892 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:58 am
I'm genuinely getting the vibes we're starting to see the beginning of a wikipedia controversy for the ages that will make what was uncovered in the initial nihonjoe blogpost look like playground gossip
It might be rising to the level where it garners press interest, with a "Mormon infiltration of Wikipedia" line maybe?
Yes, I'm also wondering how deep this all runs.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by greenday61892 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:00 pm

BoyNamedTzu wrote:I will soon be deactivating my account and leaving Wikipedia for good. I have no desire to continue to edit, and I will pledge to make no more edits to any pages.
We now take you live to look in at BNT:

Image

Please don't threaten us with a good time.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Venefica » Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 am

After some defensive pissiness right out of the gate, Mabbett seems to have bowed out of the ANI thread. Not enough women to condescend to, maybe.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Elinruby » Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:39 am

Venefica wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 am
After some defensive pissiness right out of the gate, Mabbett seems to have bowed out of the ANI thread. Not enough women to condescend to, maybe.
:rotfl:

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by utbc » Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:16 am

Did I read somewhere that Mabett runs a Wikipedia consultancy business? It is beyond me why we would allow folks with such a conflict of interest to weigh in on COI discussions at all.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by iii » Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:33 am

Today I've been struggling to figure out why all the Mormons on Wikipdedia are insisting on treating the Book of Mormon as a creative work or worthy of literary analysis. It's pretty wild: like do you really want people to do a close reading of a pretty shitty biblical fan fiction from 1830? Then I read this:
Oh. I get it. You think that the Book of Mormon is so amazing that people will be awed by its literary genius even if not convinced it was god-inspired. Like they will come in the back door by means of its amazing brilliance.

Go ahead and read the Book of Mormon (if you haven't already). I dare you to find it brilliant.

LO fucking L.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by lonza leggiera » Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:16 am

iii wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:33 am
Today I've been struggling to figure out why all the Mormons on Wikipdedia are insisting on treating the Book of Mormon as a creative work or worthy of literary analysis. It's pretty wild: like do you really want people to do a close reading of a pretty shitty biblical fan fiction from 1830? Then I read this:
Oh. I get it. You think that the Book of Mormon is so amazing that people will be awed by its literary genius even if not convinced it was god-inspired. Like they will come in the back door by means of its amazing brilliance.

Go ahead and read the Book of Mormon (if you haven't already). I dare you to find it brilliant.

LO fucking L.
I can't claim to have read any more than a smattering of it, but I must say that I did find that smattering every bit as thrilling as Leviticus (T-H-L).
E voi, piuttosto che le nostre povere gabbane d'istrioni, le nostr' anime considerate. Perchè siam uomini di carne ed ossa, e di quest' orfano mondo, al pari di voi, spiriamo l'aere.

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Re: Let's talk about LDS editors

Unread post by Alexbrn » Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:20 am

iii wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:33 am
Oh. I get it. You think that the Book of Mormon is so amazing that people will be awed by its literary genius even if not convinced it was god-inspired. Like they will come in the back door by means of its amazing brilliance.
If that were true the BoM would have exerted some literary influence, but I don't think it has outside Mormon authors. Orson Scott Card (T-H-L) for example (actually an esteemed SF author). Would anybody read the BoM for pleasue?

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