Let's talk about LDS editors

[Giraffe Stapler]

I'm starting a thread here about LDS Church ("Mormon") editors because a post in the "Clusterfucque du jour" thread drew my attention to a couple of editors. Once I started looking, I found some things which made me look a little more closely at a wider group of editors.

I think there's a discussion to be had about Brigham Young University's Wikipedian-in-residence program which should probably have happened on Wikipedia years ago. BYU is very closely associated with the LDS church. The BYU students who are paid to write Wikipedia articles aren't writing about Utah restaurants, they're writing about LDS beliefs. Maybe this is exactly how the WIR program is supposed to work, but to me there's something different about church-sponsored editing than, say, someone in a museum writing about the collection.

This thread won't be that discussion, but it may prompt that discussion. I also don't want to lump all LSD editors together. This is about a group of editors who are primarily or exclusively interested in LDS subjects. This isn't about editors who just happen to be LDS.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I mentioned an article here because Horse Eye's Back (T-C-L) (and others) were struggling with a couple of LDS editors on the talk page. When Horse Eye's Back (HEB) ended up on ANI for their aggressive manner and tendency of sealioning, their issues with LDS editors were part of that discussion.

In that ANI thread, MJL wonders out loud if there was any canvassing involved among LDS editors. This echoes a question asked of one participant by HEB:

@BoyNamedTzu: is this noticeboard discussion being talked about off-wiki in LDS forums? You haven't edited since November and have never before commented on a noticeboard before so this is a bit puzzling. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

BoyNamedTzu did not reply and has not edited since. I don't know if BoyNamedTzu was participating on LDS forums, but I do know that he is acquainted with both Rachel Helps (BYU) (T-C-L) and P-Makoto (T-C-L), BoyNamedTzu calls himself "a publication reviewer for various Mormon-themed journals". He is Michael Austin. P-Makoto is P. Makoto Hunter, historian and BYU alumna. In October, they all attended the book of Mormon Association conference where Austin and Hunter presented. Helps posted about it on Facebook, tagging Austin and Hunter among others. Earlier in October, Helps posted on Facebook about her first published peer-reviewed article, co-written with none other than Michael Austin. I don't think anyone needs to scour LDS forums to find out how BoyNamedTzu (Austin) knew to show up on the ANI thread.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Rachel Helps has been the Wikipedian-in-residence at Brigham Young University's Harold B. Lee Library (T-H-L) since 2016. Her WIR username is Rachel Helps (BYU) (T-C-L). Helps edits Wikipedia articles herself, but also directs the work of students who are also paid to edit Wikipedia. Currently, those students are Heidi Pusey BYU (T-C-L), BenBeckstromBYU (T-C-L), Rae (BYU) (T-C-L), and Adri-at-BYU (T-C-L). There have been several others over the years.

Helps also has a personal account, Rwelean (T-C-L). I have already established the Helps knows, associates with, and collaborates with Michael Austin. One of the articles created by Rwelean is Michael Austin (writer) (T-H-L). Yes, that Michael Austin. Helps also moved two articles created by Austin's BoyNamedTzu account into mainspace - Killing of Laban (T-H-L) as Rachel Helps BYU and Julia McDonald (T-H-L) as Rwelean.

Another Rwelean creation is The ARCH-HIVE (T-H-L). The ARCH-HIVE is "an artist collective in Utah". They have a website and a blog. For several years, one of the contributors to the blog has been Rachel Helps. Helps has also been credited on some of their podcasts.

Rwelean's first version of the ARCH-HIVE article was moved to draftspace by an editor who asked Helps about any conflicts of interest on her talkpage. Helps response was:

I have an interest in the page (otherwise I wouldn't have written it), but I don't think it's a COI. I don't make any money from the ARCH-HIVE's success, and I have not been paid to write the page.

That isn't quite the same thing as saying that she is part of the group. While Helps says she doesn't think she has a conflict of interest, I'm not sure most Wikipedia editors would see it that way, especially considering Helps is a paid editor and expected to be familiar with COI rules. That draft was declined in February 2022. Helps moved it to her Rwelean sandbox.

That wasn't the end of it. Helps later copied the page from her sandbox to then pasted it as a new article in August 2023 to The ARCH-HIVE (T-H-L). I'm not saying it didn't get better (some references were added) but I will point out that one of the claims of notability is that their zine won an award from the Association of Mormon Letters. I'll get to them shortly.

[Hemiauchenia]

As noted at that ANI thread, BYU staff members have to uphold an oath of fealty to the church. They're far from neutral observers, and need to be kept on a close leash. I've had my disagreements with HEB, but in my opinion they are right on the money regarding this issue,.

[Giraffe Stapler]

On Rachel Helps' user page she has two declarations of conflict of interest. The first is about her employment by BYU, the second is about something called the Association of Mormon Letters:

Conflict of Interest Statement - AML
I am currently on the board for the Association for Mormon Letters (AML), a volunteer organization that promotes Mormon literature. I believe there is an overlap of interests between AML, the BYU Library, and Wikipedia in supplying accurate information about Mormon authors to the public. My students have worked on the AML Wikipedia page and the Wikipedia page for AML's periodical, Irreantum. The BYU Library and our special collections contain the papers of past AML presidents and we have the old AML annuals on our stacks. I created a page for Melissa Leilani Larson before I was a member of the board. I have been on four judging panels for the AML awards, and I have not created pages for books that won awards that I was a judge for.

A former AML president (2018-2020) is Eric Jepson. Jepson edits Wikipedia as Thmazing (T-C-L). His user page links to his various websites and social media account. I don't know why he sometimes calls himself "Theric" as he does on his userpage but I assume it is just an affectation.

The current editor for AML's Irreantum magaine (which is now just a website, I think) is Eric W. Jepson. Here, Jepson adds himself as editor, as "Theric Jepson". He added himself as AML President as "Theric Jepson" but later made it "Eric W. Jepson". It was Thmazing who created the AML article in the first place, back in 2008. He also created AML Awards (T-H-L), where he shows up 5 times. And this. If you search for "Theric Jepson" in Wikipedia, you will find more self-promotion by Jepson. I assume the articles he has created about people named Jepson are relatives.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Ok, so let's talk about Rachel Helps and the AML a bit more. Helps tells us in her userpage COI declaration that she is on the board of the AML. I'm not sure she's still on the board because the AML website currently lists the "AML Board, 2021-22". It has Helps as a board member with her term "expiring 2023". Her LinkedIn page says "Jan 2020" next to the listing as AML board member.

Her COI declaration also says "My students have worked on the AML Wikipedia page and the Wikipedia page for AML's periodical, Irreantum". Which brings us to the tricky part. Irreantum (T-H-L) was turned from a redirect into an article by Cstickel(byu) (T-C-L), who worked for Rachel Helps. Cstickel(byu) does this in June 2020. If Helps was on the AML board when her employee created an article about AML's magazine, that's really, really not good.

[ArmasRebane]

It's wild that editors argue in AfDs for these topics that LDS sources are all that you need to demonstrate notability, and that journals directly funded by the Church are independent. Most of the stuff I've seen these editors add is basically fancruft, just with the Pokemon replaced by angels.

[Starship Enterprise]

Helps edits Wikipedia articles herself, but also directs the work of students who are also paid to edit Wikipedia.

They get paid to edit? maybe i would edit more if they paid me

[bagofworms]

This is some pretty egregious COI/UPE editing. I'm surprised no admins have stepped in to ask questions. I don't know how to tag WPO users in posts but it would be good to get the perspective of some of our admin regulars here.

[Giraffe Stapler]

This is some pretty egregious COI/UPE editing. I'm surprised no admins have stepped in to ask questions. I don't know how to tag WPO users in posts but it would be good to get the perspective of some of our admin regulars here.

I imagine that the perspective is "I don't want to touch that". I can't blame them.

[rnu]

This is some pretty egregious COI/UPE editing. I'm surprised no admins have stepped in to ask questions. I don't know how to tag WPO users in posts but it would be good to get the perspective of some of our admin regulars here.

I think that the fact that Rachel Helps (BYU) (T-C-L) is a "Wikipedian-in-Residence" complicates things. Then of course there is the issue that (unless there are new users to harass) admins rely on people reporting issues. Next there is the fact that it is a systemic issue involving multiple editors that would require a lot of work. I think to get real systemic results you'd have to spend a year or two filing report after report until you have enough to take it to arbcom.

That being said, it is not like admins are doing nothing. They let Horse Eye's Back (T-C-L)'s incivility towards and harassment of LDS editors go unchecked.(*) And in some cases as Valereee (T-C-L) they pretty openly endorse it:

Oppose. I’ve been very concerned about BYU paid editing. I think it’s inherently a COI issue, and I’ve brought this up before. These are people being paid by the Mormon church to edit articles about Mormonism. I think in general BYU funding editing is a good thing – the Mormon church has great records, and I’m sure most of their edits are helpful – but we do need to recognize these folks do have a COI, and we do need to oversee these edits.

HEB may be too aggressive, but we shouldn’t restrict anyone checking these edits from being able to do so. These edits are COI edits and need to be checked, and we need this oversight, even if it’s occasionally a bit aggressive. Valereee (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

So if these editors get paid, good for them. It's hard earned money if you have to deal with people like HEB. Forget about paid editing they should be awarded compensation for pain and suffering.

[ArmasRebane]

This is some pretty egregious COI/UPE editing. I'm surprised no admins have stepped in to ask questions. I don't know how to tag WPO users in posts but it would be good to get the perspective of some of our admin regulars here.

I think that the fact that Rachel Helps (BYU) (T-C-L) is a "Wikipedian-in-Residence" complicates things. Then of course there is the issue that (unless there are new users to harass) admins rely on people reporting issues. Next there is the fact that it is a systemic issue involving multiple editors that would require a lot of work. I think to get real systemic results you'd have to spend a year or two filing report after report until you have enough to take it to arbcom.

That being said, it is not like admins are doing nothing. They let Horse Eye's Back (T-C-L)'s incivility towards and harassment of LDS editors go unchecked.(*) And in some cases as Valereee (T-C-L) they pretty openly endorse it:

Oppose. I’ve been very concerned about BYU paid editing. I think it’s inherently a COI issue, and I’ve brought this up before. These are people being paid by the Mormon church to edit articles about Mormonism. I think in general BYU funding editing is a good thing – the Mormon church has great records, and I’m sure most of their edits are helpful – but we do need to recognize these folks do have a COI, and we do need to oversee these edits.

HEB may be too aggressive, but we shouldn’t restrict anyone checking these edits from being able to do so. These edits are COI edits and need to be checked, and we need this oversight, even if it’s occasionally a bit aggressive. Valereee (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

So if these editors get paid, good for them. It's hard earned money if you have to deal with people like HEB. Forget about paid editing they should be awarded compensation for pain and suffering.

What they're accusing HEB of and calling "harassment" sounds like "due diligence and scrutiny".

[Giraffe Stapler]

What they're accusing HEB of and calling "harassment" sounds like "due diligence and scrutiny".

While I was looking into this I discovered that I was mostly following in HEB's footsteps. HEB confronted Thmazing about their obvious conflict of interest on their talk page. What happened? Nothing.

[Randy from Boise]

My observation — complaint, if you will — with a couple of hardcore LDS Wikipedians I have encountered isn't that they use LDS-owned sourcing to cover LDS-related topics (the Deseret News, for example), but that they have had a skewed or inconsistent position on what constitutes notability for LDS-related topics.

The classic example is J— P— L—, who is an ultra-deletionist at Articles for Deletion on most topics but an ultra-inclusionist any time the bio of some figure associated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is dragged to AfD.

You may be one or the other, but not both.

t

[LeftToLeft]

In that ANI thread, MJL wonders out loud if there was any canvassing involved among LDS editors.

I am breaking my silence on here because I need to correct this. The only canvassing being hinted at there was by the roads people. It's a bit cryptic though.

[Giraffe Stapler]

In that ANI thread, MJL wonders out loud if there was any canvassing involved among LDS editors.

I am breaking my silence on here because I need to correct this. The only canvassing being hinted at there was by the roads people. It's a bit cryptic though.

Sorry, what? The ANI discussion is here. It is explicitly about LDS editors, not roads. What are you talking about?

[Lyallpuri]

In that ANI thread, MJL wonders out loud if there was any canvassing involved among LDS editors.

I am breaking my silence on here because I need to correct this. The only canvassing being hinted at there was by the roads people. It's a bit cryptic though.

Sorry, what? The ANI discussion is here. It is explicitly about LDS editors, not roads. What are you talking about?

...the first few words of that section to which you link are:

For the record, this has nothing to do with the LDS Church-side of this dispute. I have no awareness of anything going on with that part of Wikipedia.

[rnu]

In that ANI thread, MJL wonders out loud if there was any canvassing involved among LDS editors.

I am breaking my silence on here because I need to correct this. The only canvassing being hinted at there was by the roads people. It's a bit cryptic though.

Sorry, what? The ANI discussion is here. It is explicitly about LDS editors, not roads. What are you talking about?

...the first few words of that section to which you link are:

For the record, this has nothing to do with the LDS Church-side of this dispute. I have no awareness of anything going on with that part of Wikipedia.

Yep. The (completely evidence free, because like all rules AGF only applies to some people) allegation is that there is anti-HEB canvassing, possibly on the new roads wiki.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Yep. The (completely evidence free, because like all rules AGF only applies to some people) allegation is that there is anti-HEB canvassing, possibly on the new roads wiki.

Ok, sorry, I had confused Matthew Anderson with Michael Austin. It's possible that Anderson was canvassed, but it's also possible that they knew about it because they continued to check Wikipedia even though they hadn't been editing for a couple of months.

[Giraffe Stapler]

As his Wikipedia biography says, "James Goldberg is an American historian, playwright, poet, and writer". He is an alum of BYU and was apparently an adjunct professor there as well. His wife, Nicole Wilkes Goldberg, is a part time/adjunct at BYU as well. Goldberg was president of the Association of Mormon Letters and is currently on their board.

The article was started in February 2022 by Salem(BYU) (T-C-L) in their sandbox. It was moved to mainspace 20 April 2022. The next day, on 21 April 2022, a photo of James Goldberg was uploaded to Commons by a user named "GoldbergJ". The timestamp of the upload was 23:28 UTC. The picture is added to the article by Rwelean (Rachel Helps' personal account) at 23:33 UTC. So 5 minutes after the image was uploaded, it was in the article.

So here we have a BYU paid editor under the direction of Rachel Helps creating an article about a BYU adjunct professor who is on the board of the AML at a time when Helps herself a board member. I think we can assume by the timing that the Helps was involved with the image upload. Out of 76 total edits, Helps made 6 with her BYU account and 1 with her personal account. Explain to me how Helps and her BYU employee don't have a conflict of interest here.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Joe "Nihonjoe" Monson (whose COI editing is exposed in this blog post and further discussed in this thread) has recently joined the board of the Association for Mormon Letters (AML).

As you can see from this archive, he was not on the board on 16 January 2024. As of 1 March 2024, he is on the baord, with a term expiring 2026.

[The Blue Newt]

Joe "Nihonjoe" Monson (whose COI editing is exposed in this blog post and further discussed in this thread) has recently joined the board of the Association for Mormon Letters (AML).

As you can see from this archive, he was not on the board on 16 January 2024. As of 1 March 2024, he is on the baord, with a term expiring 2026.

Interesting. Coincidence? Nose-thumb to Wiki? Cat’s-out-of-the-bag?

[Sennalen]

What a great way for the showrunners to tie together those plot threads

[redbaron]

What a great way for the showrunners to tie together those plot threads

[Midsize Jake]

Coincidence? Nose-thumb to Wiki? Cat’s-out-of-the-bag?

Could be all three, plus there's the possibility that he genuinely thinks the rules either don't apply to him, or that his rather blatant Wikipedia COI activity (as defined by them, anyway) isn't at all problematic.

I know I haven't really involved myself in this whole business, and I apologize to anyone who might be disappointed by that, but I guess I'm just so used to seeing these high levels of arrogance and hypocrisy from the admins and "functionaries" that it hardly even registers with me anymore.

[Paragon Deku]

Funnily enough, I created an article related to an LDS topic (Senkyoshigo (T-H-L)), and one of the editors who thanked me for making it had been involved in an edit war over the usage of the term “Mormon” in wiki voice. I think he eventually gave up on it and went inactive.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Funnily enough, I created an article related to an LDS topic (Senkyoshigo (T-H-L)), and one of the editors who thanked me for making it had been involved in an edit war over the usage of the term “Mormon” in wiki voice. I think he eventually gave up on it and went inactive.

Some LDS folks seem to be very sensitive about the term "Mormon" while others have no problem calling themselves that. From my observations, the latter group tend to be the same ones who are also supportive of gay rights and other things not traditionally associated with the LDS church. Just my general impression and not something I know much about.

[rnu]

Funnily enough, I created an article related to an LDS topic (Senkyoshigo (T-H-L)), and one of the editors who thanked me for making it had been involved in an edit war over the usage of the term “Mormon” in wiki voice. I think he eventually gave up on it and went inactive.

I think that's something where Wikipedia could go either way. I don't think this is a case where the exonym is a pejorative (and I think at least some adherents of the faith use the name themselves), so there is nothing wrong with using it, but there would be nothing wrong with using the endonym either.

[Paragon Deku]

Some LDS folks seem to be very sensitive about the term "Mormon" while others have no problem calling themselves that. From my observations, the latter group tend to be the same ones who are also supportive of gay rights and other things not traditionally associated with the LDS church. Just my general impression and not something I know much about.

I think that's something where Wikipedia could go either way. I don't think this is a case where the exonym is a pejorative (and I think at least some adherents of the faith use the name themselves), so there is nothing wrong with using it, but there would be nothing wrong with using the endonym either.

I had an LDS friend growing up that assured me "real Latter Day Saints don't call themselves that," so having no other reference I took it as a given that most of them considered it offensive. Apparently Brigham Young himself used the term in some contexts, and it's more of an open question within the movement, so while it's a hill some will choose to die on, it's not nearly as cut and dry improper as other exonyms.

[Giraffe Stapler]

It looks like Fram has got the bit between his teeth.* Yesterday he put the Harold B Lee Library maintenance categories up for deletion. Today he left a message on Thmazing's talk page:

Can you please follow the WP:COI rules for all pages where you have a COI or WP:PAID conflict? I don't see where you have disclosed, on enwiki, your COI with regards to e.g. Irreantum, the AML and its awards, or any other pages you may have a conflict of interest with (like Elias: An Epic of the Ages).

I'm not sure how that's going to go over with certain members of Arbcom.

*I'm not kink shaming. If that's what Fram's into, more power to him. Giddyup!

[Wikiguy.DC]

It looks like Fram has got the bit between his teeth.* Yesterday he put the Harold B Lee Library maintenance categories up for deletion. Today he left a message on Thmazing's talk page:

Can you please follow the WP:COI rules for all pages where you have a COI or WP:PAID conflict? I don't see where you have disclosed, on enwiki, your COI with regards to e.g. Irreantum, the AML and its awards, or any other pages you may have a conflict of interest with (like Elias: An Epic of the Ages).

I'm not sure how that's going to go over with certain members of Arbcom.

*I'm not kink shaming. If that's what Fram's into, more power to him. Giddyup!

Thmazing's user page links to his website http://thmazing.com where he states his real name is Eric W. Jepson. A person with that exact same name is a former president of the Association for Mormon Letters (T-H-L). Thmazing happens to be one of the most frequent contributors to that article, along with two people associated with BYU.

And for what it's worth, Horse Eye Black raised the same COI concerns in December, only to be brushed off.

[Giraffe Stapler]

It looks like Fram has got the bit between his teeth.* Yesterday he put the Harold B Lee Library maintenance categories up for deletion. Today he left a message on Thmazing's talk page:

Can you please follow the WP:COI rules for all pages where you have a COI or WP:PAID conflict? I don't see where you have disclosed, on enwiki, your COI with regards to e.g. Irreantum, the AML and its awards, or any other pages you may have a conflict of interest with (like Elias: An Epic of the Ages).

I'm not sure how that's going to go over with certain members of Arbcom.

*I'm not kink shaming. If that's what Fram's into, more power to him. Giddyup!

Thmazing's user page links to his website http://thmazing.com where he states his real name is Eric W. Jepson. A person with that exact same name is a former president of the Association for Mormon Letters (T-H-L). Thmazing happens to be one of the most frequent contributors to that article, along with two people associated with BYU.

And for what it's worth, Horse Eye Black raised the same COI concerns in December, only to be brushed off.

Yes, I know. ;)

[Dan of La Mancha]

Interesting to see that Thmazing seems to be following the same script as Nihonjoe.

"I don't have a COI with that article."
"Okay, I have a COI now, but I didn't at the time I edited the article."
"Oops, you're right, I got the timeline wrong. I'll add a CC template to that article."

Rinse and repeat for every individual article they're asked about.

This is particularly incredible:

Large parts of Elias: An Epic of the Ages (T-H-L) are cited to your own blogpost on your substack, not to an independent WP:RS. How you can claim that you don't have a COI here is beyond me.

As I'm sure you're aware, Wikipedia encourages people with expert backgrounds, scientists for instance, to edit Wikipedia to bring their expertise to the site. There's a difference here in that I didn't place this anywhere peer-edited, so I can see why you're mad.

[Four minutes later:] I just reviewed the guidelines and probably I did cross a line here. I'll work on getting that published elsewhere, but if you want to throw some sort of notice on the page in the meantime, I won't be offended.

After 17 years on Wikipedia, Thmazing takes a glance at WP:V.

[Kraken]

Interesting to see that Thmazing seems to be following the same script as Nihonjoe.

"I don't have a COI with that article."
"Okay, I have a COI now, but I didn't at the time I edited the article."
"Oops, you're right, I got the timeline wrong. I'll add a CC template to that article."

There's also.....

* These edits are only a tiny proportion of my total (0.15%)
* "I know what bad faith editing looks like"
* "I have demonstrably been acting in good faith"
* Perhaps you're imagining things?
* I don't know what else I can say *shrug*
* "I'm not being shady—just sloppy"
* I'm sooooo sorry
* "Mea culpa", but....
* I know I am but what are you
* You're kinda harassing me
* I dare you to report me

And those were all themes present in one reply!

This is what happens when the Framminator gets its teeth into you. You panic. You thrash. You emit stress hormones. Everything that triggers his killer instincts. At least it did. Not sure what use he is now he's been double neutered with a desysop and now an OUTing block.

Now people feel like they can try and use attack as a means of defence against this former apex predator. Also on that same single reply....

......I know you just got out of arbitration yourself and so I can understand why you'd want to share the love......I think you might feel better about things if you report me. I mean—you're Fram! You have a reputation to maintain! (I was lurking on a Discord channel earlier today and you came up. "What a coincidence!" I said to myself.).....I'm not sure how you all ended up here (perhaps you're on another Discord channel complaining about me?).....

All that pales in comparison to the way they ended that long violation laden reply though.....

I'm not afraid of feedback or pushback which is why my identity is public. Although I'm a big supporter of Wikipedia's anonymity policies, I do think that people calling kettles black should consider making themselves as public as the kettle.

That kind of behavior, is a very serious matter indeed.

That single statement is indefinite block worthy in my opinion.

In isolation, it's a simple statement of philosophy. In context, it's a deeply chilling comment. A subtle suggestion that if you do push any harder, you might regret it. They might go and contract the services of some fetid basement dwellers to see if they can identify you to unearth any dirt that can be used against you.

And of course, it's also just dumb. You would think by now people would know Fram is undoxxable. For precisely this reason.

[jf1970]

Fram + Kraken = Fraken
Thmazing has a big fraken problem.

[Vigilant]

Fram + Kraken = Fraken
Thmazing has a big fraken problem.

Thmazing's responses remind me very strongly of Oliver Keyes' response to being called to ARBCOM.

[Wikiguy.DC]

Interesting to see that Thmazing seems to be following the same script as Nihonjoe.

"I don't have a COI with that article."
"Okay, I have a COI now, but I didn't at the time I edited the article."
"Oops, you're right, I got the timeline wrong. I'll add a CC template to that article."

Rinse and repeat for every individual article they're asked about.

This is particularly incredible:

Large parts of Elias: An Epic of the Ages (T-H-L) are cited to your own blogpost on your substack, not to an independent WP:RS. How you can claim that you don't have a COI here is beyond me.

As I'm sure you're aware, Wikipedia encourages people with expert backgrounds, scientists for instance, to edit Wikipedia to bring their expertise to the site. There's a difference here in that I didn't place this anywhere peer-edited, so I can see why you're mad.

[Four minutes later:] I just reviewed the guidelines and probably I did cross a line here. I'll work on getting that published elsewhere, but if you want to throw some sort of notice on the page in the meantime, I won't be offended.

After 17 years on Wikipedia, Thmazing takes a glance at WP:V.

Nihonjoe and Thmazing presumably know each other IRL, right?

[Giraffe Stapler]

Nihonjoe and Thmazing presumably know each other IRL, right?

Well, Monson lives in Utah and Jepson lives in California so they probably don't hang out a lot. They are both in the Association of Mormon Letters. Jepson is a past president and Monson just joined the board.

AML Conference 2023

They both appear in this presentation from last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqBMOiBodmA

[Elinruby]

Fram + Kraken = Fraken
Thmazing has a big fraken problem.

[Giraffe Stapler]

This talk page exchange makes me think that we are getting closer to a discussion of BYU's paid editing or a topic ban for Horse Eye's Back. Maybe both, though I doubt anything will happen until other editors get involved.

[rnu]

This talk page exchange makes me think that we are getting closer to a discussion of BYU's paid editing or a topic ban for Horse Eye's Back. Maybe both, though I doubt anything will happen until other editors get involved.

I think a discussion about what COI and PAID mean for Wikipedians in Residence would be appropriate. In my opinion it is far from clear whether WiRs should be treated like COI or PAID editors or not.
As for HEB? Kick him out -- make Wikipedia a slightly less horrible place.

[Elinruby]

This talk page exchange makes me think that we are getting closer to a discussion of BYU's paid editing or a topic ban for Horse Eye's Back. Maybe both, though I doubt anything will happen until other editors get involved.

I think a discussion about what COI and PAID mean for Wikipedians in Residence would be appropriate. In my opinion it is far from clear whether WiRs should be treated like COI or PAID editors or not.
As for HEB? Kick him out -- make Wikipedia a slightly less horrible place.

Meh I kind of appreciate HEB. I once asked him if I was the asshole in a given situation, and he said kinda. People who are willing to be blunt when invited to do so can be valuable. Mind you I've never been in an argument with him so maybe I'm just not seeing something.

I've been enjoying the Thamazing (T-C-L) saga.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I think a discussion about what COI and PAID mean for Wikipedians in Residence would be appropriate. In my opinion it is far from clear whether WiRs should be treated like COI or PAID editors or not.

You asked for it: Wikipedia in Residence: is this a way around conflict of interest rules?

I definitely would not have said "many of the participants from the programs and edit-a-thons have been inserting pro-Mormon POV into the encyclopedia", but the whole exercise is transparently about increasing coverage of LDS people and views. The title of this blog post by Rachel Helps is telling: Wikipedia’s Citations Are Influencing Scholars and Publishers. Behind every Wikipedian in Residence, there is at least a partial goal of increasing the visibility of the institution.

[rnu]

Just found out that WP:COI has a section about WiRs:

Wikipedians in residence, reward board

There are forms of paid editing that the Wikimedia community regards as acceptable. These include Wikipedians in residence (WiRs)—Wikipedians who may be paid to collaborate with mission-aligned organizations, such as galleries, libraries, archives, and museums. WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Wikipedia, and they should operate within the bounds defined by Core characteristics of a Wikipedian in Residence at Wikimedia Outreach. They must work closely with a Wikipedia project or the general Wikipedia community, and are expected to identify their WiR status on their user page and on talk pages related to their organization when they post there.

Another example of acceptable paid editing is the reward board, where editors can post incentives, usually to raise articles to featured-article or good-article status. If you participate in this, transparency and neutrality are key.

[rnu]

Do you have any conflicts of interest with the BYU Library (such as past or current employment) you should be disclosing when participating in this conversation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't. Is there anything you should be disclosing in this conversation? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 23:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Makoto Hunter Work Experience & Education
[...]
Writing Consultant
Harold B Lee Library
2021-2021

Oopsie?

[rnu]

Interestingly Makoto Hunter's Linkedin does not have a section that was there last December:

Writing Consultant
Harold B. Lee Library
Aug 2020 - Jul 2021 ·1 year
Provo, Utah, United States
Consulted on students’ texts from broad range of genres, including research-based persuasion, rhetorical analysis, cover letters, devotional writing, creative writing, and more.

Tutored students in applying general writing principles to improve papers and themselves as writers, revisers, and editors.

Studied and applied writing center research and pedagogy.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

[Mojito]

If Wikipedia was serious about the integrity of its articles, then WP:COI would at least be a policy, rather than an optional guideline.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Interestingly Makoto Hunter's Linkedin does not have a section that was there last December:

Writing Consultant
Harold B. Lee Library
Aug 2020 - Jul 2021 ·1 year
Provo, Utah, United States
Consulted on students’ texts from broad range of genres, including research-based persuasion, rhetorical analysis, cover letters, devotional writing, creative writing, and more.

Tutored students in applying general writing principles to improve papers and themselves as writers, revisers, and editors.

Studied and applied writing center research and pedagogy.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

It's not looking good for P Makoto. Erasing something like that from her LinkedIn at this point was just dumb.

If you've read the rest of this thread, you're probably asking "is P Makoto part of the AML crowd?" and the answer is, not surprisingly, yes. She presented at the 2023 AML Conference. She has been published in their Irreantum magazine. Here's a video of the "AML Online Book Club" from January 2023 with P Makoto and Eric W, Jepson, among others. It's on the YouTube channel of Andrew Hall who edited Wikipedia as Befubashi (T-C-L). He writes for the AML blog. He also has the most edits on the AML article and the second most on the AML Awards article.

[Kraken]

Mormonism is just so out there even compared to mainstream religion, it's hard to see why anyone would think Wikipedia was a worthwhile endeavor.

That said, this is bang on the money regarding why they might think it worthwhile.....

From what I have seen of the HBLL group's edits, the non-NPOV editing arises not so much through actively pushing LDS faith but through covering--often extensively--topics that are only discussed in publications by LDS members and thus exclusively reflect LDS-endorsed teaching on the topic. This predictably results in rather in-universe treatment of scriptural stories and amplifies the reach of fringe topics that have not received attention from mainstream scholars and thus should not have standalone notability. JoelleJay (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

This can only be countered by this......

Speaking from the perspective of one who reads a lot in history and religious studies, academic presses and major periodicals publish a lot about Mormons. There's a lot to document about their demographic and social influence across history, and anthropologists, literary critics, and religious studies scholars seem to find Mormon culture and texts useful to study. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

.....but of course as we just learned, this view didn't come from a neutral observer.

I think this kind of editing is all about the Google ranking, nothing more. If Wikipedia is going to be top for relatively obscure Mormon related search terms, you might as well use it to promote the "research" that shows "their demographic and social influence across history".

As for the main articles, does Book of Mormon (T-H-L) have 300 footnotes and 34 general references because it's a very well studied topic, or because COI editors are engaged in "research-based persuasion" with the help of Wikipedia?

[iii]

If the LDS Wikipedia in Residence/GLAM/edit-a-thon Wikipedia pages are allowed to be kept and promoted, I am going to suggest that the Church of Scientology set up a similar program. What could go wrong?

It seems pretty obvious to me that the coordinator, whose full-time job is to run this project, is not allowed to hire "anti-Mormon" apostates, critics, or free thinkers to be student editors. Doing so would likely get her fired from BYU, doncha think? At least, that's the suggestion I get when I read the rules of the institution hosted at BYU's website.

I definitely don't begrudge her this job at BYU. Go to town: hire a staff of paid student editors to do whatever you want them to do. It's pretty awesome that you identify who the students are, too, so as to make it easier to see if they're up to no good. But that this activity is being promoted on Wikipedia-hosted pages is a pretty remarkable development coming from a community website that pays lip service to "anybody can edit" and "no censorship" in the service of free inquiry and the dissemination of "human knowledge".