Naser al-Din Shah's slide

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HRIP7
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Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by HRIP7 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:58 pm

Could we have some extra eyes on Naser al-Din Shah's slide (T-H-L)?

I came across this article because of the "educational" pencil drawing Mattbuck kept, as mentioned on Jimbo's talk page. According to the Wikipedia article, it depicts a purported "structure in the form of a playground slide which was used by Persian kings of the Qajar dynasty as a sex device in their harem."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Naser ... lide_1.jpg

Image

This drawing also exists in several other versions on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Naser ... lide_2.jpg
http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%BE%D8% ... _slide.jpg

Now, the Wikipedia article Naser al-Din Shah's slide (T-H-L) has some uncited statements, and seems to disguise the fact that one of its main sources describes the thing as a legend. First, here is the source:
Ervand Abrahamian in A History of Modern Iran wrote:In yet another article Dehkhoda managed even to overreach himself. He wrote that since he had stopped his column in Sur-e Esrafil lately, he was about to be sick, because, as the Persian expression has it, "stopping a habit results in sickness." And he went on to add that he would have taken ill, just as Fath'ali Shah would have done if every day he did not lie with his back down beneath the slide in the Negaristan Palace, alluding to the legend that Fath'ali did so every day naked so that his wives would slide down naked over him.
Now see what Wikipedia makes of the passing mention in this source:
Wikipedia wrote:Fat′h-Ali Shah, who had about 1000 concubines, allegedly built several in different parts of Iran. It was said that the Shah lay on his back awaiting each concubine: "Fath'ali did so every day naked so that his wives would slide down naked over him."[2]

Referring to the story, the Iranian linguist Ali-Akbar Dehkhoda once joked that if he stopped writing he would feel ill because "as the Persian expression has it 'stopping a habit results in sickness'," adding that "he would have taken ill just as Fath'ali Shah would have done if every day he did not lie with his back down beneath the slide in the Negaristan Palace."[2]
So Wikipedia makes the one reference look like two separate ones, manages to produce more words than are devoted to the topic in the cited source itself, and omits to say that in the cited source, the quoted passage is clearly marked as a legend rather than historical fact, and referred to in passing.

The Wikipedia passages referring to actual slides having been built, and still having been in existence in the early 20th century, cite no sources at all.

The 1891 source (!) has the following passage:
Its imperial master occasionally joins in the outdoor amusements of his harem ; indeed, he himself invented a game a few years since, which sounds more original than amusing. A slide of smooth alabaster about twenty feet long, on an inclined plane, was constructed in one of his bath-houses. Down this the Shah would gravely slide into the water, followed by his seraglio. The sight must have been a strange one, the costumes on these occasions being, to say the least of it, scanty !
The page number Wikipedia gives is wrong, and Wikipedia describes this account as "somewhat sanitised" – an assertion that is again, unsourced (if anything, this 1891 account sounds rather more realistic than the fanciful scenario depicted in Mattbuck's "educational drawing").

There are other warning signs: the article says that this sort of thing is known as a "Naserian slide" ... yet at the time of writing, Google finds only two matches for this phrase, both on Wikipedia.

It looks rather like Wikipedia substituting fantasy for historical reality again – probably because of the films mentioned in the last section of the article (although that, too, lacks citations). Is anyone familiar with the films, or aware of other historical background that would exonerate the Wikipedia article at least to some extent?

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by lilburne » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:39 pm

Why are we concerned about this?
They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by DanMurphy » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:58 pm

It's bullshit, the sources are crap, and this is not anything close to generally accepted historic "fact" as it's presented. In other words, a fairly standard wikipedia article.

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by lilburne » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:09 pm

One editor was a little more astute than lovelorn Matt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =523822621
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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:06 pm

In its original form, the article was short but acceptable. All this fantasy crap was added by Paul Barlow (T-C-L), a well-protected "house troll" obsessed with "Aryan" and various religious subjects. Barlow's history on WP is full of disputes over Iranian, Arab, Christian and Muslim material--going right back to 2002, making him one of Wikipedia's "true insiders". He's been little commented on before. Judging from the AN/I evidence, Barlow enjoys a lot of outright support from certain admins, especially that little shit Moreschi. I could not tell you who's "more right" in these disputes, because they tend to involve really obscure historical issues. He's also stuck himself into the middle of the Shakespeare authorship business, always a great place for pointless squabbling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... aul_Barlow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... aul_Barlow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... aul_Barlow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... aul_Barlow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... etarianism

I'm tempted to add Barlow to the AN/I Trolls list. There was only ONE substantial mention of Barlow on WR, and it involved him ratting Headley Down to FT2.
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s= ... t&p=126329

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by The Joy » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:19 am

"In the long run, volunteers are the most expensive workers you'll ever have." -Red Green

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by lilburne » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:50 am

The Joy wrote:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naser al-Din Shah's slide (T-H-L)

The result was Keep.
Excellent result.
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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by bobberhk » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:27 pm

If your concern is that the slide may not have existed, I submit the following description from Volume one of Thomas Stevens 1888 book "Around the World on a Bicycle". It's quite detailed. I'd very much like to know if this palace still exists, since the Wikipedia entry makes no mention of its fate (other than the use of the word 'was', in describing it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Stevens_(cyclist)

http://archive.org/stream/aroundworldon ... la_djvu.tx

From Pages 532/533 "It seems strange almost
startling to come in from contemplating the bare, unlovely mud
walls of the city, and find one's self amid the life-like scenes of
Fatteh-ali Shah's court ; and, amid the scenes to find here and
there an English face, an English figure, dressed in the triangular
cockade, the long Hessian pigtail, the scarlet coat with fold-back
tails, the knee-breeches, the yellow stockings, the low shoes, and
the long, slender rapier of a George III. courtier. From here we
visit other rooms, glittering rooms, all mirror-work and white
stucco. Into rooms we go whose walls consist of myriads of tiny
squares of rich stained glass, worked into intricate" patterns and geo-
metrical designs, but which are now rapidly falling into decay ; and
then we go to see the most novel feature of the garden Fatteh-
ali Shah's marble slide, or shute.

Passing along a sloping, arched vault beneath a roof of massive
marble, we find ourselves in a small, subterranean court, through
which a stream of pure spring water is flowing along a white marble
channel, and where the atmosphere must be refreshingly cool even
in the middle of summer. In the centre of the little court is a round
tank about four feet deep, also of white marble, which can be filled
at pleasure with water, clear as crystal, from the running stream.
Leading from an upper chamber, and overlapping the tank, is a
smooth-worn marble slide or shute, about twenty feet long and four
broad, which is pitched at an angle that makes it imperative upon
any one trusting themselves to attempt the descent, to slide help-
lessly into the tank. Here, on summer afternoons, with the chas-
tened daylight peeping through a stained-glass window in the roof,
and carpeting the white marble floor with rainbow hues, with the
only entrance to the cool and massive marble court, guarded by
armed retainers, who while guarding it were conscious of guarding
their own precious lives, Fatteh-ali Shah was wont to beguile the
hours away by making merry with the bewitching nymphs of his
anderoon, transforming them for the nonce into naiads.

There are no nymphs nor naiads here now, nothing but the
smoothly-worn marble shute to tell the tale of the merry past ; but
we obtain a realistic idea of their sportive games by taking the bull-
dogs to the upper chamber, and giving them a start down the slide.
As they clutch and claw, and look scared, and appeal mutely for
assistance, only to slide gradually down, down, down, and fall with
a splash into the tank at last, we have only to imagine the bull-dogs
transformed into Fatteh-ali Shah's naiads, to learn something of the
truth of current stories. After we have slid the dogs down a few
times, and they begin to realize that they are not sliding hopelessly
down to destruction, they enjoy the sport as much as we, or as much
as the naiads perhaps did a hundred years ago."

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:34 pm

:welcome:
to bobberhk.

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by lilburne » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:41 am

The problem with the story is the description "smooth-worn marble slide or shute" which implies that it was smooth because of all the naked people using it.
agra.jpg
When I visited the Mughal sites a few years back all the marble was smooth. They were experts in shaping and smoothing marble. After all they tended to walk bare feet over this stuff. Additionally water features of one sort or another were common place, as was the technology of making water flow through pavilions halls, and gardens. A guide's story of erotica, told to entertain Victorian gentlemen visitors, does not make any of it true.
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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:35 pm

lilburne wrote:A guide's story of erotica, told to entertain Victorian gentlemen visitors, does not make any of it true.
But ... but ... this is in a published book, a reliable source!
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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by Stierlitz » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:09 am

Poetlister wrote:
lilburne wrote:A guide's story of erotica, told to entertain Victorian gentlemen visitors, does not make any of it true.
But ... but ... this is in a published book, a reliable source!
Compare Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night (1885) to Hussein Haddaway's translation The Arabian Nights (1990); the version from the 19th century is ten volumes long with six volumes of supplemental material. Hussein Haddaway's version is one volume of nearly six-hundred pages, based on one of the earlier collections of stories.

Burton shared [John] Payne's enthusiasm for archaic and forgotten words. The style Burton achieved can be described as a sort of composite mock-Gothic, combining elements from Middle English, the Authorized Version of the Bible and Jacobean drama. Most modern readers will also find Burton's Victorian vulgarisms jarring, for example ‘regular Joe Millers’, ‘Charleys’, and 'red cent'. Burton's translation of the Nights can certainly be recommended to anyone wishing to increase their word-power: ‘chevisance’, ‘fortalice’, ‘kemperly’, ‘cark’, ‘foison’, ‘soothfast’, ‘perlection’, ‘wittol’, ‘parergon’, ‘brewis’, ‘bles’, ‘fadaise’, ‘coelebs’, ‘vivisepulture’, and so on. ‘Whilome’ and ‘anent’ are standard in Burton's vocabulary. The range of vocabulary is wider and stranger than Payne's, lurching between the erudite and the plain earthy, so that Harun al-Rashid and Sinbad walk and talk in a linguistic Never Never Land.

- Robert Irwin, as quoted in Wikipedia. John Payne (1842-1916) had written a translation of Arabian Nights in 1882; Burton allegedly plagiarized chunks of it.

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Re: Naser al-Din Shah's slide

Unread post by TungstenCarbide » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:32 pm

Stierlitz wrote:
Poetlister wrote:
lilburne wrote:A guide's story of erotica, told to entertain Victorian gentlemen visitors, does not make any of it true.
But ... but ... this is in a published book, a reliable source!
Compare Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night (1885) to Hussein Haddaway's translation The Arabian Nights (1990); the version from the 19th century is ten volumes long with six volumes of supplemental material. Hussein Haddaway's version is one volume of nearly six-hundred pages, based on one of the earlier collections of stories.

Burton shared [John] Payne's enthusiasm for archaic and forgotten words. The style Burton achieved can be described as a sort of composite mock-Gothic, combining elements from Middle English, the Authorized Version of the Bible and Jacobean drama. Most modern readers will also find Burton's Victorian vulgarisms jarring, for example ‘regular Joe Millers’, ‘Charleys’, and 'red cent'. Burton's translation of the Nights can certainly be recommended to anyone wishing to increase their word-power: ‘chevisance’, ‘fortalice’, ‘kemperly’, ‘cark’, ‘foison’, ‘soothfast’, ‘perlection’, ‘wittol’, ‘parergon’, ‘brewis’, ‘bles’, ‘fadaise’, ‘coelebs’, ‘vivisepulture’, and so on. ‘Whilome’ and ‘anent’ are standard in Burton's vocabulary. The range of vocabulary is wider and stranger than Payne's, lurching between the erudite and the plain earthy, so that Harun al-Rashid and Sinbad walk and talk in a linguistic Never Never Land.

- Robert Irwin, as quoted in Wikipedia. John Payne (1842-1916) had written a translation of Arabian Nights in 1882; Burton allegedly plagiarized chunks of it.
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