Fictional flags

[Giraffe Stapler]

Over on Commons there is a discussion about whether fictional flags belong there. Not flags that appear in fiction, but flags that have been created by someone for their own fantasy micronation or alternative history. Like if I made up a flag for Giraffestaplerland and uploaded it.

One might assume that this would be a short discussion. Remember that COM:SCOPE says that images "Must be realistically useful for an educational purpose". Commons users, of course, see things in a more nuanced way...

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Comm ... y_in_scope?

[AndyTheGrump]

There are all sorts of complete-bollocks fictional flags scattered about Wikipedia and Commons: often created, or uploaded, by someone with an obvious agenda. I noticed just the other day that the flag of the libertarian-fantasy-island 'micronation' of Liberland (T-H-L) was uploaded to Commons by someone claiming to be "copyright holder of this work", despite citing the Liberland website as the source. A very simple two or three stripes of colour flag wouldn't be subject to copyright I'd imagine, but the Liberland one is relatively complex, and quite likely would be. I was tempted to nominate it for deletion just to watch the mayhem ensue as Commons tries to decide whether something that doesn't exist can hold a copyright.

[Guido den Broeder]

Of course they've also tried to remove the Paraduin flag, but failed. If a picture appears on someone's user page, that is already sufficient scope. Otherwise they would have to delete all those cat images and nobody wants that!

[Ming]

Well, judging from DIngley's arguments, even though his disavows them, utility is irrelevant. What is relevant is yammering on endlessly.

[orangepi]

Vexillology cruft is vexing, film at 11.

[Poetlister]

There are all sorts of complete-bollocks fictional flags scattered about Wikipedia and Commons: often created, or uploaded, by someone with an obvious agenda. I noticed just the other day that the flag of the libertarian-fantasy-island 'micronation' of Liberland (T-H-L) was uploaded to Commons by someone claiming to be "copyright holder of this work", despite citing the Liberland website as the source. A very simple two or three stripes of colour flag wouldn't be subject to copyright I'd imagine, but the Liberland one is relatively complex, and quite likely would be. I was tempted to nominate it for deletion just to watch the mayhem ensue as Commons tries to decide whether something that doesn't exist can hold a copyright.

Presumably, whoever created it initially owned the copyright. There is no reason why that person could not be the uploader. If he then assigned the copyright to a non-existent entity, I expect that would be null and void. Even if he has legitimately assigned it to some organisation, I doubt that the people running it (probably including him) would object to the uploading.

[Guido den Broeder]

Of course they've also tried to remove the Paraduin flag, but failed. If a picture appears on someone's user page, that is already sufficient scope. Otherwise they would have to delete all those cat images and nobody wants that!

Naturally after they blocked me on Commons the first thing they did was run to the Paraduin flag and delete it, along with another image and the entire category. The policy hurdle that these files were in use was overcome by having a bot remove them from all pages WMF after the fact.

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

[AndyTheGrump]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

[Guido den Broeder]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

Formal approval. In the same way that a company flag or a village flag is a real flag.

[AndyTheGrump]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

Formal approval. In the same way that a company flag or a village flag is a real flag.

But what makes the approval of pretend-country promotors 'formal'?

[Guido den Broeder]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

Formal approval. In the same way that a company flag or a village flag is a real flag.

But what makes the approval of pretend-country promotors 'formal'?

Same as with 'accepted' countries. The decision of the people in authority.

[AndyTheGrump]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

Formal approval. In the same way that a company flag or a village flag is a real flag.

But what makes the approval of pretend-country promotors 'formal'?

Same as with 'accepted' countries. The decision of the people in authority.

Except that these people don't have authority over anything, except in their own imaginations. Sorry to have to break it to you, your highness.

[Guido den Broeder]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

Formal approval. In the same way that a company flag or a village flag is a real flag.

But what makes the approval of pretend-country promotors 'formal'?

Same as with 'accepted' countries. The decision of the people in authority.

Except that these people don't have authority over anything, except in their own imaginations. Sorry to have to break it to you, your highness.

Actually yes, they have. You have absolute authority over your own ideas. How do you think any country has started? The founding fathers began the USA, with was just an idea at the time, and this gave them full authority.

[AndyTheGrump]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

[Midsize Jake]

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

You can't just do that... I'm the Cazique. Nobody guides the Magical Magellanic Clouds but me! Also, I'm the King of Industrial-Strength Drain Cleaner, so don't be messing around with any of that either.

Anyway, if the guy wants to run his own micro-nation and make formal declarations as such, I say let him. At least he's not running a completely dysfunctional declining superpower filled with delusionally entitled right-wing idiots.

[AndyTheGrump]

Did this guy leave any heirs?

[rnu]

By the way, micronational flags are real flags. Commons also provides a home to flags that are actually mere fantasy.

How is a flag made more real by linking it to a fantasy country?

Formal approval. In the same way that a company flag or a village flag is a real flag.

But what makes the approval of pretend-country promotors 'formal'?

Same as with 'accepted' countries. The decision of the people in authority.

Except that these people don't have authority over anything, except in their own imaginations. Sorry to have to break it to you, your highness.

Actually yes, they have. You have absolute authority over your own ideas. How do you think any country has started? The founding fathers began the USA, with was just an idea at the time, and this gave them full authority.

I think there may have been a gun or two involved, too.

[Guido den Broeder]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

Congrats for stepping into the footsteps of Genghis Khan. We'll be looking forward to your constitution and activities.

[AndyTheGrump]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

Congrats for stepping into the footsteps of Genghis Khan. We'll be looking forward to your constitution and activities.

You seem to be unfamiliar with Genghis Khan's MO.

[Guido den Broeder]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

Congrats for stepping into the footsteps of Genghis Khan. We'll be looking forward to your constitution and activities.

You seem to be unfamiliar with Genghis Khan's MO.

Good for me. Whereas you seem extremely familiar with it.

[Vigilant]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

Congrats for stepping into the footsteps of Genghis Khan. We'll be looking forward to your constitution and activities.

You seem to be unfamiliar with Genghis Khan's MO.

Don't sully Temuchin's legacy with this cowpie.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Speaking of fictional flags on Commons, the LGBT flag of Uganda.

[Ron Lybonly]

Alternate NZ flag: Laser Kiwi flag (T-H-L) from Commons

IMG_6799.png

[greyed.out.fields]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

...

...

.... *

Well, surely there should be a competition to design a flag for the Grumpian Empire, ruled as benevolent despot by His Imperial Majesty Grump the First, Protector of Mexico, by grace of the FSM, etc, etc. **

In a curious twist, the vexillologists who specialise in creating flags for countries that only exist in their imagination will have quite the significant head start in this competition.

* Apologies for Drama God Reduction here, Vig
** Apologies if I have not used the correct Style (form of address) (T-H-L) here, Your Serene Grumpiness. In my defence, I must admit I now tend towards republicanism here in Canada lite since [viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12707]

[Guido den Broeder]

All countries exist only in our imagination. If someone didn't tell you, you wouldn't know that you live in one or when you cross an equally imaginary border.

[AndyTheGrump]

All countries exist only in our imagination. If someone didn't tell you, you wouldn't know that you live in one or when you cross an equally imaginary border.

Congratulations, you have discovered social constructs.

Clearly imaginary...

[JarrBarr]

All countries exist only in our imagination. If someone didn't tell you, you wouldn't know that you live in one or when you cross an equally imaginary border.

Congratulations, you have discovered social constructs.

Clearly imaginary...

[Randy from Boise]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

What day is Tax Day and how much do I owe?

t

[AndyTheGrump]

Ok, sure.

I hereby declare myself Emperor Grump the First, Guardian of the Galactic Core, Cazique of the Magellanic Clouds, and Pastafarian Prelate of the Interstellar Void. Bow down before me, peasants...

What day is Tax Day and how much do I owe?

t

Thursdays. The entrails of an unhappy citizen. My empire will be the happiest ever known to mankind!

[AndyTheGrump]

Changing the subject slightly, in an earlier post, I described Liberland as a 'libertarian-fantasy-island'. Here's an update:


Danube flood plain. There's a clue in there somewhere. At one point, these clowns were claiming that they were going to build an international airport...

[Guido den Broeder]

Liberland has no territory. A slight problem when you want to build a futuristic city functioning as a tax haven.

[The Blue Newt]

Changing the subject slightly, in an earlier post, I described Liberland as a 'libertarian-fantasy-island'. Here's an update:


Danube flood plain. There's a clue in there somewhere. At one point, these clowns were claiming that they were going to build an international airport...

That’s much drier than Logan used to look.

You could substitute a lot of airport names for “Logan”.