The deletionists have won

[Blooxo]

I am so angry at Wikipedia right now after seeing yet another proposal on the village pump to delete articles en-masse. So much knowledge has been destroyed by deletionists and if you look at the deletion log and AFD archives literally over a million articles have been deleted. The entire base of Wikipedia is untrustable now as deletionists can delete it at will. Why did deletionists gain so much power and effectivley be the arbiters of knowledge. Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life and seeing the efforts of millions of people destroyed in the largest destruction of knowledge since the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. I hate deletionism and notability nerds and will be focusing on rescuing articles for inclusionist wikis for the rest of my wiki career.

[Vigilant]

[Beeblebrox]

Anyone who thinks there is a "war between deletionists and inclusionists" is part of the problem. Seems to be all you post about here.

[AndyTheGrump]

...Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life...

And who's choice was that?

[Beeblebrox]

...Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life...

And who's choice was that?

the deletionists made them do it....
every time an article on a bus stop or a pokemon is deleted, god kills a puppy, so there's really no choice.

[Randy from Boise]

I am so angry at Wikipedia right now after seeing yet another proposal on the village pump to delete articles en-masse. So much knowledge has been destroyed by deletionists and if you look at the deletion log and AFD archives literally over a million articles have been deleted. The entire base of Wikipedia is untrustable now as deletionists can delete it at will. Why did deletionists gain so much power and effectivley be the arbiters of knowledge. Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life and seeing the efforts of millions of people destroyed in the largest destruction of knowledge since the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. I hate deletionism and notability nerds and will be focusing on rescuing articles for inclusionist wikis for the rest of my wiki career.

Hi. Welcome to WPO, by the way.

It would be helpful if you would provide links and a description of the issue so that we could see what you're on about.

tim

[AndyTheGrump]

@ Beeblebrox

Us deletionists are the reason there is only one God. One more step and we'll have won.

[Blooxo]

This is the village pump section that triggered this rant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... cert_tours

But deletionists have ruined Wikipedia over a long time. I feel that Wikipedia has got to the point where it can’t expand any more because any new articles submitted will be afded or rejected at the draft stage. Wikipedia is almost 20 years old now and is stuck in a deletionist crab bucket. I have observed a lot of contradictions in the deletion policy. They are more inclusionist when it comes to American shows like the Simpsons and South Park than to Pokemon. Jimbo Wales’ conflict of interest by running Fandom is also the biggest red flag.

[Blooxo]

...Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life...

And who's choice was that?

I mostly stopped editing in 2006. But Wikipedia is almost impossible to avoid on the internet because it is cited by every search engine and social media platform. Like it or not Wikipedia has a monopoly on whether you are worthy of being known about. The problems with deletionism and systemic bias still haven’t been solved and it is still causing countless editors to have their atricles destroyed.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I am so angry at Wikipedia right now after seeing yet another proposal on the village pump to delete articles en-masse. So much knowledge has been destroyed by deletionists and if you look at the deletion log and AFD archives literally over a million articles have been deleted. The entire base of Wikipedia is untrustable now as deletionists can delete it at will. Why did deletionists gain so much power and effectivley be the arbiters of knowledge. Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life and seeing the efforts of millions of people destroyed in the largest destruction of knowledge since the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. I hate deletionism and notability nerds and will be focusing on rescuing articles for inclusionist wikis for the rest of my wiki career.

"So much knowledge has been destroyed by deletionists". Do you go to The Olive Garden and declare that Chinese food is being destroyed because they don't serve it?

[Poetlister]

No doubt some of the deleted articles should have been kept. No doubt many were worthless rubbish and the site is better without them. The relative proportions of the two are debatable and everyone here would have a different opinion. Also, no doubt there are many more articles that should be deleted. I don't think that the deletionists always win.

[Midsize Jake]

Unfortunately, this thread title represents yet another case where readers will click on it hoping to have reason to celebrate, only to be sorely disappointed by the actual content.

That said, I think we'd predicted that as the WP user base gets older and (to some extent) more entrenched, there would be increased rejection of the sort of "trivial" pop culture articles that drew so many people to Wikipedia in the first place. That doesn't mean "deletionists have won," though — it mostly just means that the culture, the definition/concept of "notability," and the technology people are using (among other things) have changed, at least in some topic areas, and there are people on WP now who don't want to change along with them.

I, for one, have been saying for years that "deletionism vs. inclusionism" is a "red herring," which is to say the conflict isn't real, and was invented mostly to cause anyone opposed to unimpeded WP growth to feel bad about themselves (in the hopes that they'd shut up and/or leave). That doesn't mean there haven't been people who genuinely believed there were, and are, too many articles and lots of them should be deleted, but there was no real way they could ultimately "win." The system just won't allow it, barring a mass exodus of users.

I believe that's still true, even now, though it may be that there are more genuine "deletionists" on WP than there have been in the past.

[AndyTheGrump]

So, I picked at random one of the articles from the category being discussed on the village pump: The Mary Show Tour (T-H-L), an article on a tour undertaken by Mary J. Blige (T-H-L) in the summer of 2000. Or rather, a tour which may have taken place in 2000, if the schedule given in the only source for the tour itself was actually followed. Which is rather hard to tell, since the source says it is a 'planned tour'.

As an exercise in providing publicity for the tour sponsors, and in publicising Ms Blige's (no doubt worthy) efforts at raising funds for charity, the article has merit, if one is into that sort of thing. As a source of actual information on anything that actually happened, and can be demonstrated to have happened, it is distinctly lacking.

If fans of Ms Blige wish to record for posterity where, when and what she performed, I'd have to suggest that the best place to do so might be on a website dedicated to her talents. Hopefully one that cited actual sources. Regurgitating a list of proposed dates and venues, while entirely failing to tell the readers that you don't have any evidence that such performances actually happened, doesn't appear to be contributing much to 'knowledge' to me.

[C&B]

Wikipedia has wasted 18 years of my life

[Ritchie333]

I saw this thread and thought, "oh good, I can restore some of these articles and clean them up". Then I noticed the content and realised I'd got several related ones deleted at AfD already. Most of the tour articles are one editor thinking "I wanna write an article", instead of considering whether they could just improve an existing one instead.

[Blooxo]

I don’t think Wikipedia can ever get rid of their deletion issues. There’s just so many people who get a rush from putting articles on afd or other deletion processes. The major deletionists work on new page patrol or decline drafts. So many ex Wikipedians are disillusioned people who were originally drawn in to the promise of the “sum of all human knoledge” as Jimbo himself promised, but the deletionists came along and thought it it was fun to destroy other people’s work under the guise of notability or other arbitrary criteria.

I would like to see an inclusionist Wiki succeed one day instead of the current wikis like everybodywiki that are mostly static mirrors of AFDed articles. Such a wiki would truly benefit humanity and would take traffic and donations away from Wikipedia. I am one of the more extreme inclusionists, and will be forever.

[C&B]

I am one of the more extreme inclusionists, and will be forever.

Ah, an Advocate for the Sum of all Human Bowl Movements

[Poetlister]

For inclusionists, there is Everipedia,"The Wiki Encyclopedia for Everything, Everyone, Everywhere. Everipedia offers a space for you to dive into anything you find interesting".

[AndyTheGrump]

... Jimbo himself promised...

Yeah, about that...

As for an 'inclusionist Wiki', I must say I look forward with great anticipation to being able to add (per C&B above) my own personal contribution: a neat little table, updated as the data becomes available, of the number of sheets of scented double-ply nether-wipe I have used each day. Thereby adding my small contribution to the ever-increasing running-total of human knowledge.

[ArmasRebane]

No doubt some of the deleted articles should have been kept. No doubt many were worthless rubbish and the site is better without them. The relative proportions of the two are debatable and everyone here would have a different opinion. Also, no doubt there are many more articles that should be deleted. I don't think that the deletionists always win.

The continued growth of Wikipedia by article count and the inability to contain breathless recentism coverage like the day by day, month by month accounting of the COVID pandemic suggests that deflationists have only "won" insofar as they've managed to keep lists of video game maps and articles on minor characters from pop novels on dedicated fan wikis where they belong.

[Vigilant]

The biggest problem the inclusionists face is article rot and vandalism/POV pushing.

The more articles, in particular BLPs, you have, the worse the problem gets.

I'd give more credence to the inclusionists if Pending Changes were implemented site wide to act as a quality ratchet.
But we all know that will never happen.

[Poetlister]

The continued growth of Wikipedia by article count and the inability to contain breathless recentism coverage like the day by day, month by month accounting of the COVID pandemic suggests that deflationists have only "won" insofar as they've managed to keep lists of video game maps and articles on minor characters from pop novels on dedicated fan wikis where they belong.

Yes, there are endless battles, and you cannot assume that editors will always be on the same side. I for one sometimes vote delete and sometimes keep. The war will never end.

[Beeblebrox]

I don’t think Wikipedia can ever get rid of their deletion issues. There’s just so many people who get a rush from putting articles on afd or other deletion processes.

This, right here, is exactly why radical inclusionism's day has come and gone. (some time ago actually)
Nobody "gets a rush" from nominating an article at AFD. Unless and until you can break out of the ridiculous radical inclusionist mindset, you probably shouldn't even look at Wikipedia, it will just make you upset, and you'll do something stupid that you will regret and that will get you banned or blocked, as has happened to literally all of the so-called leaders of the ARS. But I'm sure you already know all that.

[Black Kite]

Concert tour articles are some of the biggest piles of shit in the encyclopedia.

"X's Y tour was a tour in support of album Y by the artist X. Here's what X played on the tour. Here's a list of the cities they visited. What a great article I've just written".

I gave up sending them to AfD years ago because basically no-one cared apart from the people who liked that particular artists and so they all ended up being no consensus.

Obviously there are notable tours. They are very few and far between.

[CoffeeCrumbs]

Concert tour articles are some of the biggest piles of shit in the encyclopedia.

"X's Y tour was a tour in support of album Y by the artist X. Here's what X played on the tour. Here's a list of the cities they visited. What a great article I've just written".

I gave up sending them to AfD years ago because basically no-one cared apart from the people who liked that particular artists and so they all ended up being no consensus.

Obviously there are notable tours. They are very few and far between.

No way, the number of state fairs played by Quiet Riot in 1994 is just like the Great Library of Alexandria!

[Poetlister]

We've noted in another current thread that every village in the depths of Central Asia deserves its own stub. The deletionists don't seem to be winning on that front.

[Zoloft]

The absence of Flarp (T-H-L) is a great example.

[Poetlister]

The absence of Flarp (T-H-L) is a great example.

You mean - having an entry in Urban Dictionary isn't adequate proof of notability? What does it take to convince some people?

[Zoloft]

The absence of Flarp (T-H-L) is a great example.

You mean - having an entry in Urban Dictionary isn't adequate proof of notability? What does it take to convince some people?

The product reminds me so much of the WMF board, tho.

[Mason]

The first article I ever wrote for Wikipedia was deleted. I thought that was wrong, unkind, and unfair, and it made me quite upset at the time.

So I get where the OP is coming from, even if I might not necessarily agree on the specific articles.

[Poetlister]

The first article I ever wrote for Wikipedia was deleted. I thought that was wrong, unkind, and unfair, and it made me quite upset at the time.

So I get where the OP is coming from, even if I might not necessarily agree on the specific articles.

I hope you sympathise with article authors before you delete their articles.

[No Ledge]

Calling all inclusionists! Calling all inclusionists!

The article titling squad is begging you to create a proper article on Murder in Texas! Get to work helping to incubate Draft:Murder in Texas (T-H-L), so that Murder in Texas (T-H-L) can be moved to Murder in Texas (film). They insist that the film cannot possibly be the primary topic!

See Talk:Murder in Texas for the discussion around this issue.

But no, the radical inclusionists are not interested in helping solve such problems. They are only interested in creating more articles about films, including films by independent film makers trying to break into the business and posting their stuff on YouTube hoping that someone will notice it and independently write about it.

[Mason]

The first article I ever wrote for Wikipedia was deleted. I thought that was wrong, unkind, and unfair, and it made me quite upset at the time.

So I get where the OP is coming from, even if I might not necessarily agree on the specific articles.

I hope you sympathise with article authors before you delete their articles.

I don’t do much deleting these days, but yes, empathy is something to be valued and employed more than it sometimes is.

[AndyTheGrump]

Calling all inclusionists! Calling all inclusionists!

The article titling squad is begging you to create a proper article on Murder in Texas! Get to work helping to incubate Draft:Murder in Texas (T-H-L), so that Murder in Texas (T-H-L) can be moved to Murder in Texas (film). They insist that the film cannot possibly be the primary topic!

See Talk:Murder in Texas for the discussion around this issue.

But no, the radical inclusionists are not interested in helping solve such problems. They are only interested in creating more articles about films, including films by independent film makers trying to break into the business and posting their stuff on YouTube hoping that someone will notice it and independently write about it.

Sorry, can't help out there. Too busy writing Draft:Murders in the conservatory, with a lead pipe (T-H-L)

[AndyTheGrump]

I don’t do much deleting these days, but yes, empathy is something to be valued and employed more than it sometimes is.

I have a great deal of empathy for newcomers who are suckered into writing unsuitable articles for Wikipedia by the 'anyone can edit' fund-raising-sloganising. I have less empathy with people who've been around for years, who seem to take such advertising seriously, and seem not to be able to distinguish between being able to do something, and do anything....

[Vigilant]

I don’t do much deleting these days, but yes, empathy is something to be valued and employed more than it sometimes is.

I have a great deal of empathy for newcomers who are suckered into writing unsuitable articles for Wikipedia by the 'anyone can edit' fund-raising-sloganising. I have less empathy with people who've been around for years, who seem to take such advertising seriously, and seem not to be able to distinguish between being able to do something, and do anything....

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

[Poetlister]

Calling all inclusionists! Calling all inclusionists!

The article titling squad is begging you to create a proper article on Murder in Texas! Get to work helping to incubate Draft:Murder in Texas (T-H-L), so that Murder in Texas (T-H-L) can be moved to Murder in Texas (film). They insist that the film cannot possibly be the primary topic!

That is not unreasonable. There are lots of film titles that should not be the primary topic, such as Casablanca, Rope and Sunset Boulevard.

[C&B]

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

That Digitally, they should be Buried Under One

[AndyTheGrump]

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

[Vigilant]

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

There are so many of thse insular groups like WP:ROADS that catalog their obsession into mind numbing minutiae on en.wp without any pushback.

[AndyTheGrump]

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

There are so many of thse insular groups like WP:ROADS that catalog their obsession into mind numbing minutiae on en.wp without any pushback.

Fortunately perhaps, the road-fetishists are sufficiently insular that they rarely seem to interact with the rest of Wikipedia at all. The really troublesome groups are those that insist on spilling their obsessions into the wider article space. One that comes to mind is Wikipedia:WikiProject Longevity (T-H-L) (or whatever it was known as before) and the old-age-obsessives long-running attempts to use Wikipedia as a host for their own sourced-from-another-website-they-created lists of people who might possibly have lived beyond some arbitrary age or another. Content regarding the just-about-living should, in my opinion, be subject to the usual concerns for privacy, and for proper sourcing where it is even encyclopaedic at all. Which isn't very often. It appears that at least some of this obnoxious crew have been given the boot in the last few years, and they may have cleaned up their act a little, but they still seem to thing that making dubious lists constitutes 'research'. It does, but only in the sense that flat-Earthers use the term when they use it to describe watching some other soup-brained lipflapper telling them things they want to hear.

In my opinion, almost all Wikiprojects are unnecessary at best, and frequently a net negative. Sometimes disruptively so.

[Beeblebrox]

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

but it does describe nearly every inch o fht eroad in exr

There are so many of thse insular groups like WP:ROADS that catalog their obsession into mind numbing minutiae on en.wp without any pushback.

I've had mixed results in my interactions with them, all of which came about because I watch articles on roads in my part of the world. It's frankly kind of funny to me how the obsess about every little intersection like it's a big deal.

I recall running into that at Portage Glacier Highway (T-H-L). Now, this is a lovely drive through a fairly pristine wilderness area, and is a notable road because of the unique history of the tunnel at the end. But when I first became aware it had an article it was full of redlinks that would seem to indicate the author thought every little bridge over a creek on this 12-mile-long park road was a major intersection, and worthy of an article. link It's better now, I was able to work with some of the roads folks some years back to align it better with a sense of relative importance, but it does still describe nearly every inch of the road in excruciating detail. Is that better or worse than excruciating detail about every Pokemon? At least it's something real.

[Casliber]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Casl ... ar_culture

one day I will make this an article again...

[Vigilant]

What are your thoughts on the WP:ROAD guys then?

but it does describe nearly every inch o fht eroad in exr

There are so many of thse insular groups like WP:ROADS that catalog their obsession into mind numbing minutiae on en.wp without any pushback.

I've had mixed results in my interactions with them, all of which came about because I watch articles on roads in my part of the world. It's frankly kind of funny to me how the obsess about every little intersection like it's a big deal.

I recall running into that at Portage Glacier Highway (T-H-L). Now, this is a lovely drive through a fairly pristine wilderness area, and is a notable road because of the unique history of the tunnel at the end. But when I first became aware it had an article it was full of redlinks that would seem to indicate the author thought every little bridge over a creek on this 12-mile-long park road was a major intersection, and worthy of an article. link It's better now, I was able to work with some of the roads folks some years back to align it better with a sense of relative importance, but it does still describe nearly every inch of the road in excruciating detail. Is that better or worse than excruciating detail about every Pokemon? At least it's something real.

Most of the projects are solar mass sized autism deposits.

My personal pet peeve are the Math articles. I can read them, but there's no way that a layman can.

With WP:ROADS, there's zero evidence that anyone outside of WP:ROADS ever found the excruciating level of over detailing necessary or helpful.

It's supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a shrine to someone's unmedicated obsessions.

[AndyTheGrump]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Casl ... ar_culture

one day I will make this an article again...

Needs more Biggles (T-H-L). And Airplane! (T-H-L). And 633 Squadron (T-H-L). And a whole section on postage stamps with aeroplanes on them.

Does Wikipedia have an article on Postage stamps with aeroplanes on them (T-H-L)? If not, I'll have to write one, just to have a long and convoluted argument about the spelling of the title. And whether helicopters should be included...

[Ming]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Casl ... ar_culture

one day I will make this an article again...

Needs more Biggles (T-H-L). And Airplane! (T-H-L). And 633 Squadron (T-H-L). And a whole section on postage stamps with aeroplanes on them.

Does Wikipedia have an article on Postage stamps with aeroplanes on them (T-H-L)? If not, I'll have to write one, just to have a long and convoluted argument about the spelling of the title. And whether helicopters should be included...

Commons has your back.

[AngelOne]

... One that comes to mind is Wikipedia:WikiProject Longevity (T-H-L) (or whatever it was known as before) ...

Wikipedia:WikiProject World's Oldest People (T-H-L), aka WP:WOP (T-H-L).

[C&B]

In my opinion, almost all Wikiprojects are unnecessary at best, and frequently a net negative. Sometimes disruptively so.

Ah, The MILHIST!

[Poetlister]

The roads people need to look at England. Hardly any B roads have articles.

[Ritchie333]

The roads people need to look at England. Hardly any B roads have articles.

"The B507 begins at an interchange with the A501 east of the A5 and A40 interchange at Edgeware Bakerloo. It proceeds NW crossing the A5205 at an at grade interchange, proceeding in this direction towards an intersection with the B509 to terminate on the B510".

alternatively

"Abbey Road is famous for some blokes from Liverpool walking across a zebra crossing".