Scots version of Wikipedia is written by the same person - an American teenager who can’t speak Scots

[WanderingGuest]

Something very disturbing has been uncovered:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comme ... e_article/

Over 20,000 articles on Scots Wikipedia aren't in Scots at all and were all written by an American guy who can't speak any Scots. Apparently, the Scots Wikipedia doesn't have a single user who's a native Scots speaker. Many databases used to train machine translate AIs might be corrupted and useless because of this. Holy fuck.

The user in question is AmaryllisGardener. (https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uiser:AmaryllisGardener) He's an administrator on Scots Wikipedia with over 100k edits.

Some discussion on this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/r_speer/status/1298297872228786176

Discussion on Meta:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Request ... eled_scale

Edit: the language is called "Scots" and not "Scottish" and the official name of the project is "Scots Wikipedia", not "Scottish Wikipedia".

[Poetlister]

Och aye! I have long said that the Scots Wikipedia is written in a sort of music hall parody of Scots. That would explain it.

[AndyTheGrump]

Someone should nominate the entire Scots Wikipedia for deletion, per Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over (T-H-L).

[Eric Corbett]

Someone should nominate the entire Scots Wikipedia for deletion, per Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over (T-H-L).

They should indeed, it's just a joke.

But will they?

I seem to remember some clown becoming an administrator on that Scottish Wikipedia, someone on here?

[tarantino]

Over 800 comments on /r/Scotland so far, and an AMA from another scowiki admin, who also doesn't understand Scots. There's also threads on 4chan, metafilter and meta, Requests_for_comment/Disruptive_editing_on_sco.wikipedia_on_an_unparalleled_scale.

[Eric Corbett]

The very existence of that Wikipedia would be an embarrassment to any decent work of reference.

[Ming]

Over 800 comments on /r/Scotland so far, and an AMA from another scowiki admin, who also doesn't understand Scots. There's also threads on 4chan, metafilter and meta, Requests_for_comment/Disruptive_editing_on_sco.wikipedia_on_an_unparalleled_scale.

The meta discussion is embarrassing, especially the idiot argument over whether it's vandalism or some other specific offense, and more especially the one jerk who wants to blow off the whole thing because it wasn't categorized correctly.

[iii]

What a fucking object lesson.

Honestly, I don't mind if you revert all of my edits, delete my articles, and ban me from the wiki for good. I've already found out that my "contributions" have angered countless people, and to me that's all the devastation I can be given, after years of my thinking I was doing good (and yes, obsessively editing, I have OCD). I was only a 12-year-old kid when I started, and sometimes when you start something young, you can't see that the habit you've developed is unhealthy and unhelpful as you get older. I don't care about defending myself, I only want to stop being harassed on my social medias (and to stop my other friends who have nothing to do with the wiki from being harassed as well). Whether peace can by scowiki being kept like it is or extensively reformed to wipe my influence from it makes no difference to me now that I know that I've done no good anyway.1

[Giraffe Stapler]

What a fucking object lesson.

Honestly, I don't mind if you revert all of my edits, delete my articles, and ban me from the wiki for good. I've already found out that my "contributions" have angered countless people, and to me that's all the devastation I can be given, after years of my thinking I was doing good (and yes, obsessively editing, I have OCD). I was only a 12-year-old kid when I started, and sometimes when you start something young, you can't see that the habit you've developed is unhealthy and unhelpful as you get older. I don't care about defending myself, I only want to stop being harassed on my social medias (and to stop my other friends who have nothing to do with the wiki from being harassed as well). Whether peace can by scowiki being kept like it is or extensively reformed to wipe my influence from it makes no difference to me now that I know that I've done no good anyway.1

He should have run it through an English to Scots translator:

Honestly, ah dinnae mynd if ye pit back a' o' mah edits, delete mah articles, 'n' ban me fae th' wiki fur guid. A've awready fun oot that mah "contributions" hae angered countless fowk, 'n' tae me that's a' th' devastation ah kin be given, efter years o' mah thinking ah wis daein' guid (and aye, obsessively editing, ah hae ocd). Ah wis ainlie a 12-year-old bairn whin ah stairted, 'n' whiles whin ye stairt something young, ye cannae see that th' habit ye'v made is unhealthy 'n' unhelpful as ye git older. Ah dinnae care aboot defending masell, ah ainlie wantae stoap bein' harassed oan mah social medias (and tae halt mah ither mukkers wha hae hee haw tae dae wi' th' wiki fae bein' harassed as well). Whither peace kin by scowiki bein' kept lik' it's or extensively reformed tae dicht mah influence fae it mak's na difference tae me noo that ah ken that a've dane boggin' anyway.

[tarantino]

He's also made 819 edits to the Pitcairn-Norfolk wikipedia, a language with around 600 speakers worldwide. The only relatively active editor there now is also the only admin, Coconutic, a Russian guy.

[Midsize Jake]

I don't want to seem overly judgmental, but this whole thing is completely absurd.

Anyway, if he started when he was 12, and this has been going on for 7-1/2 years, he must be closing in on his 20th birthday... it's a good thing they caught this before he reached legal drinking age.

[MrErnie]

Someone should nominate the entire Scots Wikipedia for deletion, per Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over (T-H-L).

I seem to remember some clown becoming an administrator on that Scottish Wikipedia, someone on here?

I think it was MJL - one of your old buddies.

[C&B]

It's even found its way to Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Cobradile94/status/ ... 5111943168

Where AM is Being Roundly beat up

[WanderingGuest]

It's even found its way to Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Cobradile94/status/ ... 5111943168

Where AM is Being Roundly beat up

I saw the reaction at the early stages and people were sending so much vile stuff towards AG. AG quickly deleted their twitter account. And AG had stopped identifying as a brony some time ago so the redditor probably had to do some digging for it. Shameful. The OP of this twitter thread says he's worried about AG: "he might do something to himself".

[Eric Corbett]

Someone should nominate the entire Scots Wikipedia for deletion, per Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over (T-H-L).

I seem to remember some clown becoming an administrator on that Scottish Wikipedia, someone on here?

I think it was MJL - one of your old buddies.

It was, you're right.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I saw the reaction at the early stages and people were sending so much vile stuff towards AG. AG quickly deleted their twitter account. And AG had stopped identifying as a brony some time ago so the redditor probably had to do some digging for it. Shameful. The OP of this twitter thread says he's worried about AG: "he might do something to himself".

This is correct. AG now identifies as a furry. And I'm not joking. He identifies as a 19 year-old gay, Christian, furry. I am not surprised that he deleted his Twitter account.

[WanderingGuest]

There's a Vice piece about this debacle:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxqy ... ed-english

Bur it looks the writer of this piece knows less Scots than even AG himself. It's corrected now, but in an earlier version of the Vice article, the writer confused Scots with Scottish Gaelic. Didn't even leave a note after correcting the article though, and sadly I couldn't archive it quick enough.

Also, a Guardian article on this:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -wikipedia

[Eric Corbett]

I see that clot MJL - another American - is quoted in the Guardian article.

I fail to see the point of the cringe-worthy Scots Wikipedia, and I say that as someone who grew up in Scotland, so could claim it to be my first language. If I actually believed it qualified as a language at all that is. My mother used to call it Doric, and she insisted we had to practise it after we moved down to England.

[Poetlister]

If they ever do have the sense to get rid of the nonsense and set up a sensible site with competent admins (yes, I know, fat chance), I hope they have a separate one for the Ulster Scots dialect (T-H-L). ideally, they should have separate ones for Insular Scots (T-H-L), Northern Scots (T-H-L), Central Scots (T-H-L) and Southern Scots (T-H-L).

[Eric Corbett]

If they ever do have the sense to get rid of the nonsense and set up a sensible site with competent admins (yes, I know, fat chance), I hope they have a separate one for the Ulster Scots dialect (T-H-L). ideally, they should have separate ones for Insular Scots (T-H-L), Northern Scots (T-H-L), Central Scots (T-H-L) and Southern Scots (T-H-L).

But this raises the question of what the purpose of a language specific version of Wikipedia should be.

Are you suggesting, for instance, that the readers of say, an Ulster Scots Wikipedia, would be unable to understand English?

It's very easy to see the point of a French, Spanish, German ... version, but Scots? To whom is that really a first language, if indeed it can be classified as a language at all.

[WanderingGuest]

I see that clot MJL - another American - is quoted in the Guardian article.

I fail to see the point of the cringe-worthy Scots Wikipedia, and I say that as someone who grew up in Scotland, so could claim it to be my first language. If I actually believed it qualified as a language at all that is. My mother used to call it Doric, and she insisted we had to practise it after we moved down to England.

Many languages around the world suffer this fate. The native dialect/language of my area has a very similar story. It was (and mostly still is) considered "uncivilised/uneducated" language. Modern Standard Hindi that came with the television and the newspaper has been dominating. It isn't completely wiped out though, many families still speak it "at home" and it's influence can still be seen. But apart from a handful of activists, most people don't really care about the language and it'll probably be reduced to an accent in the future. Last time I checked, it had a Wikipedia incubator, though I don't speak it good enough to contribute.

[Eric Corbett]

The idiocy is never ending.
link

[Eric Corbett]

I see that clot MJL - another American - is quoted in the Guardian article.

I fail to see the point of the cringe-worthy Scots Wikipedia, and I say that as someone who grew up in Scotland, so could claim it to be my first language. If I actually believed it qualified as a language at all that is. My mother used to call it Doric, and she insisted we had to practise it after we moved down to England.

Many languages around the world suffer this fate. The native dialect/language of my area has a very similar story. It was (and mostly still is) considered "uncivilised/uneducated" language. Modern Standard Hindi that came with the television and the newspaper has been dominating. It isn't completely wiped out though, many families still speak it "at home" and it's influence can still be seen. But apart from a handful of activists, most people don't really care about the language and it'll probably be reduced to an accent in the future. Last time I checked, it had a Wikipedia incubator, though I don't speak it good enough to contribute.

My argument is that Scots is not, and never has been, a language at all.

[WanderingGuest]

I see that clot MJL - another American - is quoted in the Guardian article.

I fail to see the point of the cringe-worthy Scots Wikipedia, and I say that as someone who grew up in Scotland, so could claim it to be my first language. If I actually believed it qualified as a language at all that is. My mother used to call it Doric, and she insisted we had to practise it after we moved down to England.

Many languages around the world suffer this fate. The native dialect/language of my area has a very similar story. It was (and mostly still is) considered "uncivilised/uneducated" language. Modern Standard Hindi that came with the television and the newspaper has been dominating. It isn't completely wiped out though, many families still speak it "at home" and it's influence can still be seen. But apart from a handful of activists, most people don't really care about the language and it'll probably be reduced to an accent in the future. Last time I checked, it had a Wikipedia incubator, though I don't speak it good enough to contribute.

My argument is that Scots is not, and never has been, a language at all.

Yes, I understand that. It's the same thing with the language I was talking about too. Most people even refuge to recognise it as a language, saying it's just "corrupted Hindi". This characterisation is changing slowly, but probably won't make a difference in time to save it.

[ArmasRebane]

The question of whether Scots is its own language is kind of irrelevant in the context of Wikimedia, where this story shows that it fundamentally was irrelevant enough that no one noticed until now.

[Eric Corbett]

The question of whether Scots is its own language is kind of irrelevant in the context of Wikimedia, where this story shows that it fundamentally was irrelevant enough that no one noticed until now.

Of course people noticed, that's not the point.

The point is that almost half of its articles were written by an American kid who had no idea what he was doing.

And then a slightly older American kid, who equally didn't know what he was doing, as he demonstrated so well on the English Wikipedia, became one of the site's admins.

[Poetlister]

They say tht a language is a dialect with its own army. If Scotland had never united with England, of course Scots would be regarded as a language. Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are extremely similar, yet they are regarded as different languages and each has its own Wiki (indeed, Norwegian has two). Often, it is a matter of national pride. (North) Macedonians are very hurt at the suggestion that their language is just a dialect of Bulgarian.

[Eric Corbett]

They say tht a language is a dialect with its own army. If Scotland had never united with England, of course Scots would be regarded as a language.

"They"?

Are you suggesting that before the Act of Union the Scots didn't speak English?

[Midsize Jake]

"They"?

Are you suggesting that before the Act of Union the Scots didn't speak English?

Apparently this adage got its own Wikipedia article: A language is a dialect with an army and navy (T-H-L)

You guys presumably know a good deal more about Scotland's history than I do, but perhaps it should be said that a lot of history is problematic here in that it focuses on leaders and aristocrats, who lived in a "courtly society" bubble that often had little in common with the rest of society. Those leaders (and their fellow bubblers) were usually well-educated and had a much more expansive world-view, and were quite likely to be multi-lingual as well. I suspect it's quite possible that a lot of lower-class "commoners" in Scotland could only speak a dialect that people in England wouldn't have been able to understand or interpret, even well into the 17th century — it's just that we don't hear about them much, if ever.

[Eric Corbett]

That's one point of view.

Another is that the "Scots language" is largely a literary invention of Robert Burns.

[Zoloft]

That's one point of view.

Another is that the "Scots language" is largely a literary invention of Robert Burns.

Well, I had a look at To a Mouse,

And the difference between the first two stanzas is sort of telling:

Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a pannic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!

[Poetlister]

To this day, people from some parts of Scotland, notably Glasgow, speak something that it is difficult for many English people and indeed most Americans to understand. Has anyone seen a film called Gregory's Girl (T-H-L)?

As for the interesting hypothesis that Burns invented the language, it can of course be found in many poems that long precede his birth, such as The Twa Corbies.

[Ming]

The problem behind the problem is that the reliance on crowdsourcing as a review "system" has allowed many cases where someone made a huge mess that was laborious to clean up, to the point where most of the cleanup projects never finish. Remember Neelix? The major difference in this case is that it took so long for things to come to a head.

[Ritchie333]

To this day, people from some parts of Scotland, notably Glasgow, speak something that it is difficult for many English people and indeed most Americans to understand. Has anyone seen a film called Gregory's Girl (T-H-L)?

I was thinking more along the lines of Rab C. Nesbitt (T-H-L) myself.

[Eric Corbett]

As for the interesting hypothesis that Burns invented the language, it can of course be found in many poems that long precede his birth, such as The Twa Corbies.

Are you quite certain about that?

"The Twa Corbies, written heavily in the Scots language, probably dates from the 18th century and was first published in Walter Scott's Minstrelsy in 1812."
link

[Nemo]

In fairness, isn't Scots (Gaelic) virtually a dead language? The majority of Scottish and Irish people can't speak Gaelic fluently.

I can see maybe having a wiki devoted specifically to Scottish culture written in Scots, but having a full encyclopedia written in a dead language seems like a joke to begin with; up there with "Klingon Wiki".

[thekohser]

Always remember to update Wikipedia when it steps in dog doo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =973412769

[Eric Corbett]

That's an article certainly worth watchlisting.

I was struck by the incompetence of appointing another American, MJL (T-C-L), as an administrator last year.

[Eric Corbett]

In fairness, isn't Scots (Gaelic) virtually a dead language? The majority of Scottish and Irish people can't speak Gaelic fluently.

I can see maybe having a wiki devoted specifically to Scottish culture written in Scots, but having a full encyclopedia written in a dead language seems like a joke to begin with; up there with "Klingon Wiki".

Gaelic and Scots are two very different things.

One is a language not quite dead, there are still Gaelic speakers and even some whose first language is Gaelic; the other is a relatively recent invention, not a language at all.

As for dead languages, there is a Latin Wikipedia at link, the purpose of which escapes me.

[Eric Corbett]

To this day, people from some parts of Scotland, notably Glasgow, speak something that it is difficult for many English people and indeed most Americans to understand. Has anyone seen a film called Gregory's Girl (T-H-L)?

I was thinking more along the lines of Rab C. Nesbitt (T-H-L) myself.

Rab C. Nesbitt is a good example.

I was constantly having to translate for my (very English) wife when we were watching that. But because having grown up in the south-west of Scotland I understood what he was saying, doesn't make me bilingual.

Or if it does, why can't I get a GCSE in it?

Or perhaps a job as a translator at the European Parliament?

[Poetlister]

As for the interesting hypothesis that Burns invented the language, it can of course be found in many poems that long precede his birth, such as The Twa Corbies.

Are you quite certain about that?

"The Twa Corbies, written heavily in the Scots language, probably dates from the 18th century and was first published in Walter Scott's Minstrelsy in 1812."
link

As your link doesn't work, I can't comment on it. My link clearly says "Anonymous. 17th Cent." Anyway, there are many other Scots ballads; they can't all post-date Burns.

[Zoloft]

As for the interesting hypothesis that Burns invented the language, it can of course be found in many poems that long precede his birth, such as The Twa Corbies.

Are you quite certain about that?

"The Twa Corbies, written heavily in the Scots language, probably dates from the 18th century and was first published in Walter Scott's Minstrelsy in 1812."
link

As your link doesn't work, I can't comment on it. My link clearly says "Anonymous. 17th Cent." Anyway, there are many other Scots ballads; they can't all post-date Burns.

This is probably the intended link: link

[Eric Corbett]

It was, thanks for that.

[Eric Corbett]

As your link doesn't work, I can't comment on it. My link clearly says "Anonymous. 17th Cent." Anyway, there are many other Scots ballads; they can't all post-date Burns.

The issue is not Scots ballads, it's about a language called Scots.

You claim to be a mathematician, yet you confuse adjectives with nouns. Maybe you never studied Logic 101?

Or English?

[C&B]

That's an article certainly worth watchlisting.

I was struck by the incompetence of appointing another American, MJL (T-C-L), as an administrator last year.

MJL, Massive Jerk-off Licker, but from Connecticut, I tink, not Carolina, like The false Scotman

[Eric Corbett]

That's an article certainly worth watchlisting.

I was struck by the incompetence of appointing another American, MJL (T-C-L), as an administrator last year.

MJL, Massive Jerk-off Licker, but from Connecticut, I tink, not Carolina, like The false Scotman

Strange that a fake like him would put himself forward for a public position as some sort of minor official in Toy Town America.

One might have thought that honesty would be a prerequisite for such a position.

[Poetlister]

This is probably the intended link: link

Child (I, 253) quotes a letter from Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe to Walter Scott (August 8, 1802): "The song of 'The Twa Corbies' was given to me by Miss Erskine of Alva (now Mrs Kerr), who, I think, said that she had written it down from the recitation of an old woman at Alva."

It seems plausible then that this was an old poem in 1802. Burns was writing poetry from about 1780 to 1796. It would thus be unlikely that this poem was greatly affected by his work.

Incidentally, the cited article was mostly taken from Wikipedia article The Three Ravens (T-H-L), as is acknowledged in the footnote.

[Poetlister]

As your link doesn't work, I can't comment on it. My link clearly says "Anonymous. 17th Cent." Anyway, there are many other Scots ballads; they can't all post-date Burns.

The issue is not Scots ballads, it's about a language called Scots.

You claim to be a mathematician, yet you confuse adjectives with nouns. Maybe you never studied Logic 101?

Or English?

I don't understand what point you are making. A Scots ballad is a ballad written in the Scots language, so discussion of such ballads is highly relevant to the language. Are you aware of the difference between Scots and Scottish? If there are Scots ballads that pre-date Burns, that is proof that the Scots language pre-dates Burns.

And of course I never studied Logic 101; that terminology is American.

[Ming]

Ming can see Eric's point in this: the familiar ones trace back either to Burns or to Lady Nairne, who was a contemporary. Ballulalow, which is a couple of centuries earlier, is much more like middle English than it is like Burns. That said, the tendency of English is to differentiate and shift, as evidenced for instance in the gradual disappearance of the subjunctive mood in American English and the proliferation of regional accents. Ming is not convinced that the apparent constructedness of Scots somehow invalidates it.

[AndyTheGrump]

Language isn't a thing, it is a process.