Former WMF employee calls out management

[Giraffe Stapler]

Harej (T-C-L) (AKA James Hare) has posted a long message on-wiki about his experience working at the WMF:

I feel like shit

I have been sitting on this for around two years. It has taken me a really long time to figure out how to express this.

As you may know I worked for the Wikimedia Foundation from 2018 to 2019. This was following a lifetime of service to the Wikimedia movement. I started contributing my time in 2004 and over time participated in greater and more consequential capacities. I am proud of the work I have done, from making workflows more efficient with bots, to organizing large and successful conferences, to my work on building an open citation graph on Wikidata.

What I am not proud of is working at the Wikimedia Foundation.

I worked very hard throughout my career and ultimately found full time work at one of the world’s most illustrious nonprofits. What I got for my lifetime of work was the experience of working with bullies.

The Wikimedia Foundation is run by bullies.

There are two members of executive management that come to mind. Both have made me the object of repeated ridicule over a period of several years in my volunteer and professional capacities. One has interacted with me a single digit number of times and only did so to make fun of some verbal gaffe I made or otherwise mock something I have said or done. Another liked to make jokes about me as well, often right in my face. I had an experience of interviewing with this executive, only for them to make fun of me to my face in subsequent encounters.

Both of these people still work at the Wikimedia Foundation. I am not referring to them directly because I don’t want them to sue me and I don’t want my post to be oversighted, but they still hold positions of power, and they are still responsible for managing staff.

There are a lot of things I could tell you about the foundation, good or bad. I could tell you about the brilliance of the staff, the genuine collaborations between professionals and volunteers that take place, and the sincere dedication of everyone I have met working there.

I could also tell you about the lack of leadership at the highest levels, and the interdepartmental war for resources that resulted. But I was merely demoralized by this chaos; it wasn’t my own personal experience. I could tell you about how women, and women of color in particular, are chewed up and spit out by the management. But that’s not my story to tell. I could complain that their growth strategy is complete nonsense and destined to fail, but that’s, just, like, my opinion.

But this is my story to tell: I am an adult with autism. Over the years, especially when I was younger, it is inevitable that I would say and do things that are kind of funny. And I have been made fun of my entire life for it. I can forgive myself for saying awkward things, and I can forgive people for what they did as children. What I cannot forgive is a fully grown adult, in a position of significant authority, bullying another adult in their workplace. It is unforgivable.

After a chaotic 18 or so months of working at Wikimedia, I turned in my badge. The experience left me with posttraumatic stress disorder, seriously adrift on a moral and emotional level, and occasionally prone to psychotic episodes. Over time I have been able to forgive the dysfunction that defined my work experience, but I could not let go of the fact that there are bullies who work for the Wikimedia Foundation and still work there.

As Wikipedians we are a neurodiverse community and come from many different backgrounds. We need management that is not just charismatic, not just good at giving speeches, but empathetic and compassionate, who genuinely understands our experiences.

I feel terrible and exposed writing this. I may be opening myself up to retaliation. But I have been sitting on this for so long, and it has tortured me so much. And I can’t live with myself not knowing that this perspective is invisible. You are not going to hear it from the slick Communications team, and you’re not going to hear it from people who think speaking up will make them unemployable. But at this point, I don’t think I have anything to lose. And if others speak up because of me I hope it will be worth it. Harej (talk) 03:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Hare's bona fides will make this hard to ignore:

I am James Hare, also called "Harej". I have been a contributor to Wikimedia projects, principally Wikipedia and Wikidata, since 2004. I co-founded Wikimedia District of Columbia in 2011 and served on its board of directors until 2018. I worked as a grantee of the Wikimedia Foundation, working on software design and research, and as a consultant to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (a division of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) on Wikimedia engagement and contribution. I worked as a contractor and then employee of the Wikimedia Foundation from January 2018 to August 2019.

[Beeblebrox]

He's the first speaker in this video. (from well before he worked at WMF) I spoke to him very briefly that week, I certainly didn't feel compelled to mock him.

[Moral Hazard]

I am sorry that he was mistreated, and I hope that all of us would welcome James if he arrives.

Beeblebrox, would you send him a message with an invitation, please?

[Bezdomni]

Thanks for posting that video BbbRx. It is a fascinating document, especially pertaining to the State department's benediction from 7:35 or so. Did HRC's letter make it to Commons?

[The Garbage Scow]

Completely unacceptable. I don't know if someone with autism is considered part of a protected class, but he could have a nice lawsuit if they are and people in positions of power above him created an environment of harassment that drove him to quit. What he's describing is absolutely forbidden by the written policy of every US employer I can think of. We have to take annual compliance quizzes about this at my company...

I would also like to see him participate here and maybe hear more of his insight into the dysfunction over there.

[Osborne]

He could file an UCoC report...

[Vigilant]

Utterly unsurprising given their hiring and overall Human Resources policies.

[tarantino]

I seem to recall he became an admin when he was 14 in 2006. He says he was over 13 but under 18 when he ran for arbcom that same year. He was already a wikinews admin for a year.

He's spent more than half his live dedicated to something that screwed him over. Hopefully he can move on.

[Zoloft]

Their statement, straight from their heart, was almost two days ago.

There has been no response, no offer of support, nothing.

I would welcome his membership here.

[rhindle]

The post was copied to Jimbotalk but as of yet not replied to by Jimbo or anyone. Unlikely Jimbo could do anything about it anyway and he'll likely ignore it and let the bot auto-archive it without a word.

[No Ledge]

His timing, posting late on Friday, entering the weekend news cycle, was when organizations tend to release news because they have to, but want to do as quietly as possible to minimize exposure, hoping the story will quietly die rather than go viral.

Maybe this was intentional on his part, due to his fear of possible retaliation.

I won't be surprised if this picks up a bit of steam on Monday when the WMF is back in the office.

I intend to say something more myself, but am first watching the reactions from others. Not wanting to put a foot in my mouth. Like James, thinking about what I want to say.

[No Ledge]

To add some clarifying remarks: I am not referring to the managers I reported directly to; they are incredible people. And I do believe most staff at the foundation are working in good faith and are trying to do right by the people they work with, professionally and in the community. I am gravely concerned that there is a culture among, specifically, the executives (i.e. direct reports to the CEO) that is toxic, and I have been on the receiving end of this in subtle ways that scarred me. While I worked there and especially since I left many of them have been replaced with new ones, and I have no opinion on them because I haven't worked with them. I've noticed a lot of people have brought their own grievances with the Wikimedia Foundation into this, and I completely understand that, just that I think my position is a bit more nuanced than the "community vs. foundation" dynamic I often see. And I also want to note that merely the experience of being able to write what I did, and the outpouring of support, has been immensely meaningful to me. Thank you. Harej (talk) 17:32, 24 May 2021

Of course their org chart is so opaque that it's next to impossible to see who reports directly to the CEO (other than their personal staff) and who manages other people.

I'm not going to try to count how many of them have "chief", "manager", "director", "senior", "lead" or "principle" in their job titles. On one hand it seems like a very top-heavy organization, but on the other it seems not to have any top(s) at all.

[Vigilant]

I'm not going to try to count how many of them have "chief", "manager", "director", "senior", "lead" or "principle" in their job titles. On one hand it seems like a very top-heavy organization, but on the other it seems not to have any top(s) at all.

A corollary to this point is that none of the people with these titles could score a similar title at a real company.

[Vigilant]

Given the details shared, I’m going to bet the miscreant was Maher’s weedy chief of staff.

Place your bets, folks.

[No Ledge]

Given the details shared, I’m going to bet the miscreant was Maher’s weedy chief of staff.

Place your bets, folks.

But her chief of staff left with Maher, so I think we can rule them out because Hare says they are still employed by WMF and still managing others.

[thekohser]

I hope that James will swing by to discuss this giant note pad of fun...

[Without Comfort]

Harej (T-C-L) (AKA James Hare) has posted a long message on-wiki about his experience working at the WMF:

I feel like shit

I have been sitting on this for around two years. It has taken me a really long time to figure out how to express this.
[...]
I could also tell you about the lack of leadership at the highest levels, and the interdepartmental war for resources that resulted. But I was merely demoralized by this chaos; it wasn’t my own personal experience. I could tell you about how women, and women of color in particular, are chewed up and spit out by the management. But that’s not my story to tell. I could complain that their growth strategy is complete nonsense and destined to fail, but that’s, just, like, my opinion.
[...]
I feel terrible and exposed writing this. I may be opening myself up to retaliation. But I have been sitting on this for so long, and it has tortured me so much. And I can’t live with myself not knowing that this perspective is invisible. You are not going to hear it from the slick Communications team, and you’re not going to hear it from people who think speaking up will make them unemployable. But at this point, I don’t think I have anything to lose. And if others speak up because of me I hope it will be worth it. Harej (talk) 03:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Intriguing timing that Uzzell resigned, and Hare found his voice at last. I would like to ask him if he thinks the timing is related to justice sensitivity. Hopefully, he's begun healing and has social support.

[Giraffe Stapler]

James Hare has returned to add a little bit more info:

To add some clarifying remarks: I am not referring to the managers I reported directly to; they are incredible people. And I do believe most staff at the foundation are working in good faith and are trying to do right by the people they work with, professionally and in the community. I am gravely concerned that there is a culture among, specifically, the executives (i.e. direct reports to the CEO) that is toxic, and I have been on the receiving end of this in subtle ways that scarred me. While I worked there and especially since I left many of them have been replaced with new ones, and I have no opinion on them because I haven't worked with them. I've noticed a lot of people have brought their own grievances with the Wikimedia Foundation into this, and I completely understand that, just that I think my position is a bit more nuanced than the "community vs. foundation" dynamic I often see. And I also want to note that merely the experience of being able to write what I did, and the outpouring of support, has been immensely meaningful to me. Thank you. Harej (talk) 17:32, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

[TheHandThatFeedsYou]

Harej (T-C-L) (AKA James Hare) has posted a long message on-wiki about his experience working at the WMF:

I feel like shit

The Wikimedia Foundation is run by bullies.

Wikipedia is a toxic environment, lots of hostility, like a war zone/ battleground in some places.

San Francisco (where James Hare worked for Wikimedia?) is pretty toxic now too, lots of fentanyl deaths.

Ppl need to chill. The worst problems in the world are climate change, peak oil, overpopulation and irrational religion. I see no solution to climate change/ peak oil except communism, vegetarianism, major lifestyle change.

Things cannot go on as they are.

[Poetlister]

James Hare has returned to add a little bit more info:

To add some clarifying remarks: I am not referring to the managers I reported directly to; they are incredible people.

I find that worrying. Why did these excellent managers not help him? Was the person involved so senior that his managers were unable to do anything?

[No Ledge]

James Hare has returned to add a little bit more info:

To add some clarifying remarks: I am not referring to the managers I reported directly to; they are incredible people.

I find that worrying. Why did these excellent managers not help him? Was the person involved so senior that his managers were unable to do anything?

It's a lot easier to punch down than up. Hare may not even have felt comfortable about discussing this with his direct managers.

We all know about administrators who push the behavioral limits on Wikipedia, and how hard it is to effectively regulate their behavior. Eventually some are reigned in, but it can take time.

[Randy from Boise]

James Hare has returned to add a little bit more info:

To add some clarifying remarks: I am not referring to the managers I reported directly to; they are incredible people.

I find that worrying. Why did these excellent managers not help him? Was the person involved so senior that his managers were unable to do anything?

It's a lot easier to punch down than up. Hare may not even have felt comfortable about discussing this with his direct managers.

We all know about administrators who push the behavioral limits on Wikipedia, and how hard it is to effectively regulate their behavior. Eventually some are reigned in, but it can take time.

"Captain, the Major is a fuckwit. Help me get rid of him!"

t

[No Ledge]

"Captain, the Major is a fuckwit. Help me get rid of him!"

t

In the United States Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force, major is a field grade military officer rank above the rank of captain

You're asking someone with limited power to directly confront his own boss.

Could be a career-limiting move.

[Midsize Jake]

Wikipedia is a toxic environment, lots of hostility, like a war zone/ battleground in some places.

San Francisco ... is pretty toxic now too, lots of fentanyl deaths.

My impression is that this is more a function of wealth, combined with isolation due to the pandemic. Fentanyl is an expensive drug that only a relative few are allowed to use outside of a hospital setting, and most of those few are rich people. Left in isolation, they're forced to dose themselves, which is especially dangerous with fentanyl — in a lot of those cases, merely having a person there to supervise the dosage/injection might have saved them. In other words, for the average person, life in San Francisco probably isn't affected much by this phenomenon, if at all.

Still, if I'm right about this, then what might be interesting to look at is the question of whether or not more fentanyl-using rich people live alone in San Francisco as opposed to other major cities, and if so, why. It could very well be because the WMF has its headquarters there, since that would naturally lead the friends and adult children of fentanyl users (who might otherwise help them with their dosages) to want to abandon the city altogether, in order to not suffer the "career taint" or social opprobrium of living in the midst of such incompetence and chicanery.

[Poetlister]

"Captain, the Major is a fuckwit. Help me get rid of him!"

t

In the United States Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force, major is a field grade military officer rank above the rank of captain

You're asking someone with limited power to directly confront his own boss.

Could be a career-limiting move.

My point exactly. The guilty party must be quite senior if the poor chap's managers (plural so not just his immediate boss) were unable to handle it.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Wikipedia is a toxic environment, lots of hostility, like a war zone/ battleground in some places.

San Francisco ... is pretty toxic now too, lots of fentanyl deaths.

My impression is that this is more a function of wealth, combined with isolation due to the pandemic. Fentanyl is an expensive drug that only a relative few are allowed to use outside of a hospital setting, and most of those few are rich people. Left in isolation, they're forced to dose themselves, which is especially dangerous with fentanyl — in a lot of those cases, merely having a person there to supervise the dosage/injection might have saved them. In other words, for the average person, life in San Francisco probably isn't affected much by this phenomenon, if at all.

Still, if I'm right about this, then what might be interesting to look at is the question of whether or not more fentanyl-using rich people live alone in San Francisco as opposed to other major cities, and if so, why. It could very well be because the WMF has its headquarters there, since that would naturally lead the friends and adult children of fentanyl users (who might otherwise help them with their dosages) to want to abandon the city altogether, in order to not suffer the "career taint" or social opprobrium of living in the midst of such incompetence and chicanery.

My understanding is that (illegally produced) fentanyl is cheap. There has been a problem in the last five years or so with street heroin being replaced by fentanyl or mixed with fentanyl. Overdoses are common because of the higher potency of the fentanyl. Other synthetic opioids are also being used, making it difficult for people to know what they're getting.

[Moral Hazard]

James Hare has returned to add a little bit more info:

To add some clarifying remarks: I am not referring to the managers I reported directly to; they are incredible people.

I find that worrying. Why did these excellent managers not help him? Was the person involved so senior that his managers were unable to do anything?

It's a lot easier to punch down than up. Hare may not even have felt comfortable about discussing this with his direct managers.

We all know about administrators who push the behavioral limits on Wikipedia, and how hard it is to effectively regulate their behavior. Eventually some are reigned in, but it can take time.

"Captain, the Major is a fuckwit. Help me get rid of him!"

t

Generation Kill (T-H-L)'s Godfather explains why he keeps a horrible officer.

[Vigilant]

Wikipedia is a toxic environment, lots of hostility, like a war zone/ battleground in some places.

San Francisco ... is pretty toxic now too, lots of fentanyl deaths.

My impression is that this is more a function of wealth, combined with isolation due to the pandemic. Fentanyl is an expensive drug that only a relative few are allowed to use outside of a hospital setting, and most of those few are rich people. Left in isolation, they're forced to dose themselves, which is especially dangerous with fentanyl — in a lot of those cases, merely having a person there to supervise the dosage/injection might have saved them. In other words, for the average person, life in San Francisco probably isn't affected much by this phenomenon, if at all.

Still, if I'm right about this, then what might be interesting to look at is the question of whether or not more fentanyl-using rich people live alone in San Francisco as opposed to other major cities, and if so, why. It could very well be because the WMF has its headquarters there, since that would naturally lead the friends and adult children of fentanyl users (who might otherwise help them with their dosages) to want to abandon the city altogether, in order to not suffer the "career taint" or social opprobrium of living in the midst of such incompetence and chicanery.

My understanding is that (illegally produced) fentanyl is cheap. There has been a problem in the last five years or so with street heroin being replaced by fentanyl or mixed with fentanyl. Overdoses are common because of the higher potency of the fentanyl. Other synthetic opioids are also being used, making it difficult for people to know what they're getting.

The problem is that the LD50 of fentanyl is so low.

From a study on rats.

The LD50of fentanyl and analogs 2, 5, and 6 were found to be 0.879, 87.88, 69.80, and 55.44 mg/kg, respectively, in rats.

Fentanyl is two orders of magnitude more powerful than its analogs and very hard to titrate correctly outside of a controlled medical setting.

[tarantino]

I've had small doses of real fentanyl a couple of times. It was a very pleasant feeling. I've had morphine injections before and after I donated bone marrow. That was nice, but not like fentanyl. I can see how easy it would be for someone to become addicted to it, or overdose.

[Vigilant]

Since the open letter has been posted on JimboStalk, Dear Leader has posted multiple times to his talk page, but refuses to answer questions on this topic addressed to him directly.

Another Profile-in-Courage moment...



If only Harej had had the foresight to have been born an attractive young woman.

[Charliebware]

Would it be ok to speculate on who Harej alleges bullied him?

[jf1970]

Would it be ok to speculate on who Harej alleges bullied him?

Only if it's unfounded.

[Giraffe Stapler]

When I said this will be "hard to ignore", what I should have said is that the Community will leave a handful of sympathetic messages for Hare but react to the charge of employee maltreatment with a shrug. Jimbo will completely ignore this even though someone posted it on his talk page and someone else addressed a question about it directly to him. Huh.

[Moral Hazard]

When I said this will be "hard to ignore", what I should have said is that the Community will leave a handful of sympathetic messages for Hare but react to the charge of employee maltreatment with a shrug. Jimbo will completely ignore this even though someone posted it on his talk page and someone else addressed a question about it directly to him. Huh.

The Great Swami predicts Jimbo's answer:

I never comment on personnel matters, out of respect and admiration for current and past employees and out of my confidence in our management team and HR.

I would welcome employees, past and present, to contact HR or their manager whenever they have concerns.

I and the other Board Members shall be informed about this case during the executive session of our next Board Meeting.

I am sorry, but that is all I can say.

The real problem with Jimbo is not his talk page, but that he built the WMF with the organization skill he has applied to other ventures.

[Charliebware]

Harej/James Hare said:

I worked for the Wikimedia Foundation from 2018 to 2019...There are two members of executive management that come to mind...I had an experience of interviewing with this executive...Both of these people still work at the Wikimedia Foundation...they still hold positions of power, and they are still responsible for managing staff....We need management that is not just charismatic, not just good at giving speeches....

Executives in 2019:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190718211 ... eadership/

Current executives:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210427195 ... eadership/

Overlap:

Toby Negrin
Chief Product Officer

Lisa Seitz-Gruwell
Chief Advancement Officer

Janeen Uzzell
Chief Operating Officer

Jaime Villagomez
Chief Financial Officer

Heather Walls
Chief Creative Officer

James Hare worked in D.C.:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210225044 ... User:Harej

Janeen Uzzell is based in D.C.:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210518234 ... en-uzzell/

Several of these folks are "good at giving speeches", including Janeen:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +wikimedia

That may be where to start looking.

[Moral Hazard]

Harej/James Hare said:

I worked for the Wikimedia Foundation from 2018 to 2019...There are two members of executive management that come to mind...I had an experience of interviewing with this executive...Both of these people still work at the Wikimedia Foundation...they still hold positions of power, and they are still responsible for managing staff....We need management that is not just charismatic, not just good at giving speeches....

Executives in 2019:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190718211 ... eadership/

Current executives:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210427195 ... eadership/

Overlap:

Toby Negrin
Chief Product Officer

Lisa Seitz-Gruwell
Chief Advancement Officer

Janeen Uzzell
Chief Operating Officer

Jaime Villagomez
Chief Financial Officer

Heather Walls
Chief Creative Officer

James Hare worked in D.C.:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210225044 ... User:Harej

Janeen Uzzell is based in D.C.:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210518234 ... en-uzzell/

Several of these folks are "good at giving speeches", including Janeen:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +wikimedia

That may be where to start looking.

I like the cut of your jib, Sailor.

[Bezdomni]

Ah, but she wasn't part of the "slick communications team" he mentions and resigned 7 days before Hare complained about how women of color were treated. I find the speculation just as odd as this talk about sails...

[Charliebware]

He said that you're not going to hear the story from the "slick communications team", not that the bullies are on the communications team.

If her resignation is related to his story and its timing, that just narrows things down for us.

[Vigilant]

The only sure thing is that the WMF will try to hide from their responsibility.

[Moral Hazard]

I find the speculation just as odd as this talk about sails...

"I like the cut of your jib, Sailor" was typed with the voice of Skipper (Madagascar) (T-H-L).

[Vigilant]

And the whole discussion is now conveniently archived to assuage Jimbo's ego.

What a pathetic excuse for a leader.

[ArmasRebane]

I don't see anything happening here because Harej hasn't put in the work to make it happen. Nameless or untargeted accusations on social media have absolutely no impact unless you can get a bunch of other people to chime in and corroborate your accusations and/or someone actually puts out the names. Few people are actually in the position to figure out who he's talking about (if WPO can't immediately suss it out, the regular editing community ain't gonna' do it) and fewer are actually going to be able to corroborate it.

The village pump discussion has unsurprisingly no useful feedback, and I'd say very few in the way of wiki-hefty usernames chiming in.

Harej has run into the reality that no one much cares about the WMF except when they step in it.

If he were trying to make something happen, he needed to detailed and corroborate his story off-wiki, and/or talk to the press and try and get someone to write about it. Hell, he'd have had a better response if he posted on Iridescent's talk page (at the very least he'd have gotten more angry WMF bashing to make him feel better, or not.)

[No Ledge]

Nameless or untargeted accusations on social media have absolutely no impact unless you can get a bunch of other people to chime in and corroborate your accusations

The last sentence of his first message:

And if others speak up because of me I hope it will be worth it.

This seems what he was hoping would happen. Unclear what others he thought might speak up.

Strikes me as the equivalent of a single actress speaking up to say that unnamed men high up in the Hollywood hierarchy abused her.

Suggestion. When it happens the first time, write it off as "stuff happens". Let them know you don't appreciate comments of that nature and hope it doesn't happen again. If it happens a second time, start putting your smart phone or watch in "record mode" every time you see the person within earshot. Accusations will be most effective when accompanied by recorded evidence.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Suggestion. When it happens the first time, write it off as "stuff happens". Let them know you don't appreciate comments of that nature and hope it doesn't happen again. If it happens a second time, start putting your smart phone or watch in "record mode" every time you see the person within earshot. Accusations will be most effective when accompanied by recorded evidence.

I almost posted something here when you made your appallingly tone-deaf comment on Wikipedia but I restrained myself because I know the mods prefer that we all just get along.

It seems pretty clear from Hare's story that he did not feel able to confront people on their actions and he is worried that even now there might be repercussions for speaking out. This experience was obviously deeply troubling for him. Your suggestion is so facile that it feels insulting. That may be what you think you would do in that same situation, but Hare was clearly not able to do that. Suggestion. Don't give advice to humans - you aren't qualified.

[Bezdomni]

The mods do indeed hope for us to get along.

The fact that Sagecandor tried to delete Snakes in Suits may have had something -- or nothing at all -- to do with No's choice of reference.

I don't know about tone-deaf, but the cumulative effect was one of having some bikes, buses, marching bands, a hog, a drone and a barking beagle all trying to cross paths at a busy intersection after two days of complete silence.

[Poetlister]

The mods do indeed hope for us to get along.

The fact that Sagecandor tried to delete Snakes in Suits may have had something -- or nothing at all -- to do with No's choice of reference.

I don't know about tone-deaf, but the cumulative effect was one of having some bikes, buses, marching bands, a hog, a drone and a barking beagle all trying to cross paths at a busy intersection after two days of complete silence.

Sagecandor was indefinitely blocked as yet another sockpuppet of Cirt.

[el84]

The mods do indeed hope for us to get along.

The fact that Sagecandor tried to delete Snakes in Suits may have had something -- or nothing at all -- to do with No's choice of reference.

I don't know about tone-deaf, but the cumulative effect was one of having some bikes, buses, marching bands, a hog, a drone and a barking beagle all trying to cross paths at a busy intersection after two days of complete silence.

Sagecandor was indefinitely blocked as yet another sockpuppet of Cirt.

I'm sure that Bezdomni reminds us of that at every opportunity possible.

[Moneytrees]

Suggestion. When it happens the first time, write it off as "stuff happens". Let them know you don't appreciate comments of that nature and hope it doesn't happen again. If it happens a second time, start putting your smart phone or watch in "record mode" every time you see the person within earshot. Accusations will be most effective when accompanied by recorded evidence.

I almost posted something here when you made your appallingly tone-deaf comment on Wikipedia but I restrained myself because I know the mods prefer that we all just get along.

It seems pretty clear from Hare's story that he did not feel able to confront people on their actions and he is worried that even now there might be repercussions for speaking out. This experience was obviously deeply troubling for him. Your suggestion is so facile that it feels insulting. That may be what you think you would do in that same situation, but Hare was clearly not able to do that. Suggestion. Don't give advice to humans - you aren't qualified.

Thank you GS.

It's kind of funny, because what No Ledge describes is something I did, word for word, when this happened to me. When I was a kid, I had a very similar situation involving some special education teachers. They constantly condescended to me and other students because they thought we were too stupid to be talked to normally and repeatedly harassed me. When I eventually had the courage to stand up to one of them and say I was tired of being treated that way, she reacted with horror and insisted to my parents that something was wrong with me, and the abuse became much worse.

When I tried recording the harassment with my phone, one of them noticed me and took my phone away, and then brought me to another adult who had been abusing me. The other adult was in a position of authority at the school and forced me to delete the video from my phone because it was "against school policy", and then threatened further action if I did something "bad" again. And from there, the harassment just got worse and worse. I was lucky and my parents believed me and were able to help me change the situation, but the school still covered for themselves when confronted and went out of their way to protect those who had been harassing me. No one ever faced any real consequences for what they did to me.

Now imagine you're an adult, where you don't have someone to fall back on to help you, and you're just one guy at a massive company and these people treat you like shit and have all this power over you. Why the fuck would it be any different?

[No Ledge]

At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth again, let me be clear that I was not suggesting you try to take George Floyd-style video. If they aren't talking to you normally all you need is audio. And not the kind you get by pointing a microphone at them. I got my first smart watch several months ago and it's quite a marvelous "Dick Tracy"-style device. I can answer phone calls when my phone is in another room simply by swiping my watch face and talking.

I haven't tried using my watch in this manner but surely with the right app installed it should be possible.

[AngelOne]

Thank you GS.

It's kind of funny, because what No Ledge describes is something I did, word for word, when this happened to me. When I was a kid, I had a very similar situation involving some special education teachers. They constantly condescended to me and other students because they thought we were too stupid to be talked to normally and repeatedly harassed me. When I eventually had the courage to stand up to one of them and say I was tired of being treated that way, she reacted with horror and insisted to my parents that something was wrong with me, and the abuse became much worse.

When I tried recording the harassment with my phone, one of them noticed me and took my phone away, and then brought me to another adult who had been abusing me. The other adult was in a position of authority at the school and forced me to delete the video from my phone because it was "against school policy", and then threatened further action if I did something "bad" again. And from there, the harassment just got worse and worse. I was lucky and my parents believed me and were able to help me change the situation, but the school still covered for themselves when confronted and went out of their way to protect those who had been harassing me. No one ever faced any real consequences for what they did to me.

Now imagine you're an adult, where you don't have someone to fall back on to help you, and you're just one guy at a massive company and these people treat you like shit and have all this power over you. Why the fuck would it be any different?

I'm sorry you experienced that abuse and that there were no repercussions for your abusers. No child deserves that treatment.

Some people think it's easy to say "oh just do 'this' and your problem will be solved!" But "this" almost never works as planned, or your body goes into freeze instead of fight or flight mode. In terrible situations, even if people try to do "this", it might not work and the consequences of trying "this" can be severe.

I really wish people wouldn't offer that kind of advice, or at least offer it along with context. That advice is patronizing and condescending because it doesn't take into account the entire situation or consequences for standing up to someone. That kind of advice doesn't come from a place of helping someone but of showing off how well the giver "solves problems".

I'm sorry Hare was harassed at WMF and I wish he'd had someone to help him look at his options for dealing with things, along with possibly some external support/therapy (standing up to a harasser at work is hard and stressful). I hope he has people to help him now. I also hope his words are the first trickle of a watershed of complaints about systemic harassment at WMF (because I am certain that such a culture exists).