WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

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WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Mancunium » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:54 pm

Annuncia il suicidio su Wikipedia, salvato grazie alla Polizia Postale di Viterbo
OnTuscia, 8 October 2013 link

Polizia_di_Stato#Post_and_telecommunications (T-H-L)
The Polizia postale e delle comunicazioni, or Polizia Postale for short, investigates all crimes that use communications as part of its modus operandi such as computer hacking, online child pornography, credit card fraud, spreading computer viruses or software copyright violations.

Image
I don't trust my own Italian, nor that of Google Translate, for the details of this sad story.
loose translation:

A timely investigation by Viterbo's Postal Police has saved the life of 34-year old Romanian resident of Varese, who announced his intention to commit suicide in a note posted on Wikipedia, citing his dire economic situation and his general frustration.

An administrator of the online encyclopedia reported the note to the office of the Deputy Commissioner, and an investigation showed it had been posted by an IP resolving to Calabria; a police cross-check was able to determine the exact address. Local emergency services were alerted, and rushed to the foreigner's residence, where they were able to save him before he could carry out his insane plan.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:06 pm

Mancunium wrote:An administrator of the online encyclopedia reported the note to the office of the Deputy Commissioner, and an investigation showed it had been posted by an IP resolving to Calabria; a police cross-check was able to determine the exact address. Local emergency services were alerted, and rushed to the foreigner's residence, where they were able to save him before he could carry out his insane plan.
So much for checkuser, ho ho.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:29 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Mancunium wrote:An administrator of the online encyclopedia reported the note to the office of the Deputy Commissioner, and an investigation showed it had been posted by an IP resolving to Calabria; a police cross-check was able to determine the exact address. Local emergency services were alerted, and rushed to the foreigner's residence, where they were able to save him before he could carry out his insane plan.
So much for checkuser, ho ho.
Checkuser could determine the IP. Obviously, the address corresponding to that IP can usually only be supplied by the ISP, who (hopefully) won't do so in response to requests from WMF.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Alison » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:39 pm

This happens *way* more often than is publicized. Some of the enwiki Checkusers may have had to deal with stuff like this, and have had to provide police, etc with IP addresses behind the scenes. Been there, done that.

See Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm (T-H-L) and the rather callously-worded Template:Suicide response (T-H-L)
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by EricBarbour » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:09 am

Alison wrote:This happens *way* more often than is publicized. Some of the enwiki Checkusers may have had to deal with stuff like this, and have had to provide police, etc with IP addresses behind the scenes. Been there, done that.

See Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm (T-H-L) and the rather callously-worded Template:Suicide response (T-H-L)
Excellent points. Do you know of any other suicide-related incidents like this, other than Cumulus Clouds?

The institutional callousness seems to be part and parcel of the Objectivist thinking, if you can call it "thinking".
http://www.atlassociety.org/suicide
So suicide is not justified by mere emotional distress or ordinary dangers and threats. It is definitely not justified by dissatisfaction. There are many ways in which life can flourish, and many harms which one can survive and learn to live beyond. To attempt suicide in the vast majority of difficult situations is a betrayal of one's own life and values. One should never consider suicide before one has truly thrown oneself body and soul into the attempt to find a way to live: to escape the concentration camp, to find a cure for one's illness, to stick out a wave of depression, to ignore social pressures, to move to a new place, or to seek a new career.
Sounds like a forum troll to me.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Alison » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:38 am

EricBarbour wrote:Do you know of any other suicide-related incidents like this, other than Cumulus Clouds?
I'd rather not say, as they're easily identifiable, I'm bound to confidentiality and ... it wouldn't be fair to them. But there are others.
EricBarbour wrote: The institutional callousness seems to be part and parcel of the Objectivist thinking, if you can call it "thinking".
http://www.atlassociety.org/suicide
This stuff makes me retch :sick: And it goes without saying that anyone who'd dare to boilerplate-template the talk page of an editor who's expressed suicidal thoughts, rather than provide a personalized note, needs to be taken aside and slapped around. Ugh!
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by EricBarbour » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:25 am

Well, I've found some AN/I and other noticeboard "discussions" about suicide threats. No idea if they were real or jokes.
And guess what, most of the time the admin on the scene would block the account and delete all evidence. Lovely.

In one of them, Gwen Gale had all traces oversighted, then started fighting with Tanthalas. Impossible to tell who's more insane.

This is the "funniest" thing I've seen on WP this week.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Death

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:40 am

It is interesting to me that "not our problem" Wikipedia, the guardian of privacy, throws these issues aside here.

Arguably, interfering in someone's decision to terminate their own life is the biggest invasion of privacy going. So if you accept that this is appropriate, then I think we are going to have to work back from there into other issues. Wikipedia takes a massive moral stance here and then quite happily does things to otherwise normal people that drives them literally to despair.

I'm not convinced it is a given that people should intervene in suicide. I'm not informed enough about the proportion of attempted suicides who go on to fulfilled happy lives and those who then stagger through for a little longer and then try again.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Hex » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:52 pm

Alison wrote:the rather callously-worded Template:Suicide response (T-H-L)
Good God, that was horrible. I've completely rewritten it.
Alison wrote:it goes without saying that anyone who'd dare to boilerplate-template the talk page of an editor who's expressed suicidal thoughts, rather than provide a personalized note, needs to be taken aside and slapped around. Ugh!
I agree entirely. I hope at least my edit just now will make their actions a little less awful.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Alison » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:15 pm

Thank you - that is a million times better that what was there. It has warmth to it.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Mancunium » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:26 pm

Alison wrote:Thank you - that is a million times better that what was there. It has warmth to it.
+1
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Wer900 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:31 pm

Mancunium wrote:
Alison wrote:Thank you - that is a million times better that what was there. It has warmth to it.
+1
Thank you, Scott Martin.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by EricBarbour » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:40 am

And Moonriddengirl reverted part of it 10 minutes later..........

If Maggie "Moonriddengirl" Dennis doesn't like it, does that make it "official WMF policy"?

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:02 am

dogbiscuit wrote:It is interesting to me that "not our problem" Wikipedia, the guardian of privacy, throws these issues aside here.

Arguably, interfering in someone's decision to terminate their own life is the biggest invasion of privacy going. So if you accept that this is appropriate, then I think we are going to have to work back from there into other issues. Wikipedia takes a massive moral stance here and then quite happily does things to otherwise normal people that drives them literally to despair.

I'm not convinced it is a given that people should intervene in suicide. I'm not informed enough about the proportion of attempted suicides who go on to fulfilled happy lives and those who then stagger through for a little longer and then try again.
Depends on the circumstances honestly. I would love to hear the justification for why anyone should let a 15 year-old commit suicide because other people are being douchenozzles to them. Cases that involve people facing economic hardship, such as this one, are similarly hard to accept as situations where it would be reasonable to do nothing. Both of those situations can be mended and allow them a chance at greater happiness. Most recognize that the terminally ill have an understandable desire to commit suicide, so it is not as simple to suggest intervention in those cases.

On a further point, to suggest there is something wrong with Wikipedia taking a moral stand against suicide whilst having a hostile environment is missing a key point. If a group were to allow an environment that would drive someone to suicide and then did nothing when that person says he or she will commit suicide, how would that group not be killing that person? People are often ignorant hypocrites in these situations, treating people like shit, telling them not to commit suicide, and then expressing confusion at why someone would want to do that, but that does not mean it is more desirable to have such an environment and then do nothing about the consequences.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by HRIP7 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:43 am

EricBarbour wrote:And Moonriddengirl reverted part of it 10 minutes later..........

If Maggie "Moonriddengirl" Dennis doesn't like it, does that make it "official WMF policy"?
She has a point though. I think I agree with her on this one.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by eppur si muove » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:51 am

I have plenty of time for her because she put in so much effort on copyright infringement. Of course, having done so as a volunteer and knowing the size of the backlog, she should now be arguing in her paid role that this is an issue that can only be solved properly by investing in paid staff.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:58 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote: Depends on the circumstances honestly.
Of course.
The Devil's Advocate wrote: On a further point, to suggest there is something wrong with Wikipedia taking a moral stand against suicide whilst having a hostile environment is missing a key point. If a group were to allow an environment that would drive someone to suicide and then did nothing when that person says he or she will commit suicide, how would that group not be killing that person? People are often ignorant hypocrites in these situations, treating people like shit, telling them not to commit suicide, and then expressing confusion at why someone would want to do that, but that does not mean it is more desirable to have such an environment and then do nothing about the consequences.
I think that is what I was hinting at: it is illogical to profess support for suicide intervention while also supporting a harsh, distressing environment. Jimbo often goes on about his thoughtful loving community while expressing himself aggressively against individuals, so it is hardly surprising the community is malformed - it's just words with Jimbo.
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:59 pm

dogbiscuit wrote:I think that is what I was hinting at: it is illogical to profess support for suicide intervention while also supporting a harsh, distressing environment.
My point was that, even if it is hypocritical, it is better morally than simply not taking an interest when you have such an environment. A lot of people only really care about others when there is a crisis to solve.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:44 am

HRIP7 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:And Moonriddengirl reverted part of it 10 minutes later..........

If Maggie "Moonriddengirl" Dennis doesn't like it, does that make it "official WMF policy"?
She has a point though. I think I agree with her on this one.
I'd second that. But certainly she isn't laying down policy here: "Although I work for the Wikimedia Foundation, contributions under this account are exclusively in my individual, personal capacity."
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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:54 am

Poetlister wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:And Moonriddengirl reverted part of it 10 minutes later..........

If Maggie "Moonriddengirl" Dennis doesn't like it, does that make it "official WMF policy"?
She has a point though. I think I agree with her on this one.
I'd second that. But certainly she isn't laying down policy here: "Although I work for the Wikimedia Foundation, contributions under this account are exclusively in my individual, personal capacity."
It struck me that her edit was a very accurate snapshot of the Wikipedia community - there isn't much love within the Wikipedia community, it would be rather foolish to waste what little there is left on someone who might not be with us for much longer. :blink:
Time for a new signature.

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Re: WP admin saves the life of a suicidal user

Unread post by HRIP7 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:59 am

dogbiscuit wrote:
Poetlister wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:And Moonriddengirl reverted part of it 10 minutes later..........

If Maggie "Moonriddengirl" Dennis doesn't like it, does that make it "official WMF policy"?
She has a point though. I think I agree with her on this one.
I'd second that. But certainly she isn't laying down policy here: "Although I work for the Wikimedia Foundation, contributions under this account are exclusively in my individual, personal capacity."
It struck me that her edit was a very accurate snapshot of the Wikipedia community - there isn't much love within the Wikipedia community, it would be rather foolish to waste what little there is left on someone who might not be with us for much longer. :blink:
It's not that. If a person were thinking of ending it all and got a template message signed "with love from the Wikipedia community" they would feel more suicidal rather than less. What they might want in that situation is a person, not an automated declaration of love from some amorphous community.

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